Author Topic: Pride month science  (Read 6809 times)

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Offline MK14

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2023, 04:06:45 pm »
There wouldn't be enough genetic diversity in one family, unless it was particularly large (in the thousands). Also, there hasn't been enough time for the genetic differentiation we can observe in native populations, nor enough time for them to migrate to all the long inhabited regions, which in any case have archaeological records of habitation going back tens of thousands of years in many cases.

The scientific evidence, would appear to say that 40% of the Chinese men (300 Million people), are originally decended from the same 3 Men (Great great great ... grandfathers), from around 5,000 years ago.

Edit: I'm trying to illustrate the point.  That a very small number of people, can create a massive population.  Which in this case, uses China as an example.

https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/dna-evidence-suggests-300-million-chinese-men-are-descended-from-just-three-stone-age-grandfathers-e91d1c313489

Quote
DNA Evidence Suggests 300 Million Chinese Men Are Descended From Just Three Stone Age Grandfathers
More than 40 per cent of the Chinese Han population can trace their family tree back to three ‘super-grandfathers’ who lived during the Neolithic era
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 04:31:08 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2023, 04:55:28 pm »
How do myths start?
There is physical evidence for massive flooding in pre-historic times with human population.
Oral traditions of local heroes who survive a flood (possibly on some kind of ship or raft) can become more literate and embellished during transmission, until finally written down.
The Babylonian versions pre-date the Hebrew version, but other cultures have such myths.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/flood-myth
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2023, 05:00:22 pm »
An interesting article about pre-historic Chinese demographics:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618220300999
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2023, 08:22:15 pm »
How do you know the flood was mythical? That is a sweeping assumption. What evidence do you have it is mythical? There is evidence of a huge flood in the known ancient world, but the evidence does not allow us to make any definite conclusions. However, the more we poke into the past the more we learn things that overturn our assumptions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery

I have little doubt there were numerous floods throughout history which from the perspective of people at the time, were of biblical proportions. A typical ancient human was born, lived and died within a radius of probably a few dozen miles, a major flood could easily have the appearance of having covered the entire surface of the earth. Additionally there is the fact that these stories were passed on through generations by word of mouth and/or translated numerous times from language to language and assembled from collections of various documents, we all know what happens to a story that goes through a process like that.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2023, 08:27:11 pm »
The scientific evidence, would appear to say that 40% of the Chinese men (300 Million people), are originally decended from the same 3 Men (Great great great ... grandfathers), from around 5,000 years ago.

Edit: I'm trying to illustrate the point.  That a very small number of people, can create a massive population.  Which in this case, uses China as an example.

That's the case of any successful organism. A small number of bacterial or viral organisms can set in and multiply to a population of many millions at which point you become sick. Anyone that has ever had a rodent or insect infestation will have observed a small number of them turning into a population of dozens or in the case of insects, tens of thousands. When I was a kid, carpenter ants once infested a corner of our house and by the time they chewed their way through and spread out onto the wall my dad cut open the wall and there were THOUSANDS of them in there. Vacuuming them out with a shop vac resulted in literally several pounds of ants being collected, which had done some significant structural damage.
 
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Offline AndyBeez

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2023, 09:58:10 pm »
Your word of the day, palaeodemography.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_demography

During the great inundations of 10,000BCE, we were 4M strong. A figure that had grown since a minima of some 10,000 people at 70,000BCE. Implication, we decend from a village size population. 109 billion people are estimated to have ever lived.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_historical_world_population
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2023, 10:00:20 pm »
All these flags are stupid. The entire point of the original rainbow flag is that it is the entire spectrum, it is inclusive of everybody. Now that all these various subgroups wants their own separate flag completely defeats the purpose and it is all a bunch of nonsense.
Wouldn't be a problem if they started with the right one from the beginning.
They added black and brown to represent PoC (not sure what they have to do with it) and the trans colours.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2023, 11:48:55 pm »
if one take the words of the author as true the Bible but the interpretation is subject to scientific investigation.
a list of conclusions is possible.
estimating a day as reckoned from one midnight to the next. pre-flood time.
a flood happed as described
the environmental conditions pre-flood
compared to
the environmental conditions post-flood

large floating vessel capable of home to estimat of 2500 types of animals. ship design was first naval engineering.
species or kind so for example only one kind of dog was needed for all kinds of dog.
clean and unclean suggests some animals may have dna corruption.
of the 8 humans 2 or 3 may have had some type of dna corruption too.  skull malformation or superior intelligence
other books of the Bible suggest humans had clean and unclean for example the sons of Canaan.  Amorites.
the Holy Grail is before Christ BC so protecting the bloodline of the Son from any unclean dna.

promise in the sign of the rainbow in the sky is that a worldwide flood would never happen again.
however worldwide fire by sulfur has not been ruled out.  mass volcanic eruptions can happen.
with heavy worldwide meteor showers.
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2023, 12:22:49 am »
All these flags are stupid. The entire point of the original rainbow flag is that it is the entire spectrum, it is inclusive of everybody. Now that all these various subgroups wants their own separate flag completely defeats the purpose and it is all a bunch of nonsense.
Wouldn't be a problem if they started with the right one from the beginning.
They added black and brown to represent PoC (not sure what they have to do with it) and the trans colours.


It really should be LGBTQIA+EE, where EE is Electronics Engineers whom by definition are a marginalised group, characterised by their interest in PNP and NPN bipolar junction transistors, P-channel and N-channel trannies, as well as both male AND female connectors. Other common characteristics include an inability to find a girlfriend.

Or EE can mean Everyone Else so no-one is excluded and we can all live in harmony.
 
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Online Circlotron

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2023, 12:31:34 am »
The whole rainbow flag thing is just an example of co-opting. Here's an earlier example, from right here in Australia, no less. I actually had a copy many years ago. I wonder what people would make of it nowadays, seeing political correctness hadn't yet been thought of.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/30726/30726-h/30726-h.htm


 

Offline rea5245Topic starter

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2023, 12:45:56 am »
clean and unclean suggests some animals may have dna corruption.

Unclean animals are the ones that behave in an unclean manner (scavengers, living in filth, etc.). God forbids eating them, which is part of the kosher laws.
 

Offline aeberbach

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2023, 01:02:32 am »
The whole rainbow flag thing is just an example of co-opting. Here's an earlier example, from right here in Australia, no less. I actually had a copy many years ago. I wonder what people would make of it nowadays, seeing political correctness hadn't yet been thought of.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/30726/30726-h/30726-h.htm

And it has been the (official) flag of the city of Cusco, Peru, since 1978.
Software guy studying B.Eng.
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2023, 09:53:28 am »
I noted at my local pride parade last weekend, the lesbians and gay men marched behind their own flags in their own groups. Inclusivity and diversity is becoming somewhat 'decoupled' in the 21st century. I have no idea if there where any bisexuals, as there was no random group of people in between the L and G formations. As for the drag queens, they just looked fabulous as always.

It really should be LGBTQIA+EE, where EE is Electronics Engineers whom by definition are a marginalised group, characterised by their interest in PNP and NPN bipolar junction transistors, P-channel and N-channel trannies, as well as both male AND female connectors. Other common characteristics include an inability to find a girlfriend.
We have our own flag but it's in a 'non-binary' state. Instead it can be tri-state.
Let's just avoid that AC-DC rabbit hole ???

Anyone care to design a flag for the EE community?
 

Offline magic

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2023, 03:14:50 pm »
It really should be LGBTQIA+EE, where EE is Electronics Engineers

... and then there are software engineers, my head explodes and I don't even want to think about it :scared:

Well, OK, half of them fit into the TQIA+ so they aren't yet that far on the spectrum...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 03:16:21 pm by magic »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2023, 03:59:25 pm »
It really should be LGBTQIA+EE, where EE is Electronics Engineers whom by definition are a marginalised group, characterised by their interest in PNP and NPN bipolar junction transistors, P-channel and N-channel trannies, as well as both male AND female connectors. Other common characteristics include an inability to find a girlfriend.

Or EE can mean Everyone Else so no-one is excluded and we can all live in harmony.
Most people are not Electronics Engineers, we are a marginalized group. We were oppressed for generations, as nobody identified as Electronics Engineers for centuries. And if you look back to history, it's the oldest profession:
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. "
You know how much effort it was too build the power plant for that light and the distribution network, and the backup generators? Someone had to wire it all up, and even before that, someone had to design it.
"And God saw the light, and it was good" it even passed the tests on the first try.
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2023, 04:09:16 pm »
There wouldn't be enough genetic diversity in one family, unless it was particularly large (in the thousands). Also, there hasn't been enough time for the genetic differentiation we can observe in native populations, nor enough time for them to migrate to all the long inhabited regions, which in any case have archaeological records of habitation going back tens of thousands of years in many cases.

The scientific evidence, would appear to say that 40% of the Chinese men (300 Million people), are originally decended from the same 3 Men (Great great great ... grandfathers), from around 5,000 years ago.

Edit: I'm trying to illustrate the point.  That a very small number of people, can create a massive population.  Which in this case, uses China as an example.

https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/dna-evidence-suggests-300-million-chinese-men-are-descended-from-just-three-stone-age-grandfathers-e91d1c313489

Quote
DNA Evidence Suggests 300 Million Chinese Men Are Descended From Just Three Stone Age Grandfathers
More than 40 per cent of the Chinese Han population can trace their family tree back to three ‘super-grandfathers’ who lived during the Neolithic era

That's a misunderstanding of what the data actually represents. It's (almost but not quite) like saying almost everyone in the UK is descended from Richard III, simply because after so many generations, most people in the UK do have some of his DNA.

It's also true, though probably politically uncorrect to say it these days, that a viable breeding population requires fewer males than females, a ratio of 100:1 or more would be feasible. Mitochondrial DNA analysis would probably give a more useful picture of the actual size of the breeding population at the time of those "super-grandfathers".
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Offline MK14

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2023, 04:27:49 pm »
That's a misunderstanding of what the data actually represents. It's (almost but not quite) like saying almost everyone in the UK is descended from Richard III, simply because after so many generations, most people in the UK do have some of his DNA.

It's also true, though probably politically uncorrect to say it these days, that a viable breeding population requires fewer males than females, a ratio of 100:1 or more would be feasible. Mitochondrial DNA analysis would probably give a more useful picture of the actual size of the breeding population at the time of those "super-grandfathers".


On the other hand.  It would seem to indicate, that the concept of a massive flood event, wiping out huge chunks or even all of the Earths population, a very long time ago (e.g. 5,000 years ago).  Could have reduced the population to a very small number of initial survivors, perhaps 3 men and a few or so women.  Then many thousands of years later (i.e. now), there could be hundreds of millions or billions of people from that original event.

The points you made previously about diversity of the over all (worlds) population, and scattering of it, to many parts of the globe, are very good ones.  So my explanation above, might need a number of changes, such as to the exact time of the flooding event(s), and other things.  To account for how we are, where we are (as regards the worlds human population).

N.B. I'm NOT trying to agree (or disagree) with the flood (Noah) theory, just trying to be somewhat scientific.

Also, I'd prefer to still  take into account the nuclear DNA (nDNA) as well, as the more information that can be used, the more likely, accurate predictions of what really happened, can take place.

Anyway, the ratios of taking just 2 animals of each type, wouldn't really work out, as I see it.  Because, if a particular animal, needs to eat thousands (each year) of much smaller animals (or fish) to survive.  Then just having a single pair of its food source, wouldn't keep it fed.

Also, I'm not sure that the entire Earth could be fully, 100% flooded (land wise), for a period of time, then a huge amount of that water, disappears.  Really works out, as floods usually just affect, a relatively small percentage of Earth, at any given time.

I suppose the flood, could just be in the area, that the then, human population, was living, a very long time ago.  Before they became more adventurous, and moved around the globe.

The problem with stories, is that it is very easy to just twist them, to fit the available facts.  So, you can't really tell, if they are true or not.

 

Offline rea5245Topic starter

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2023, 04:43:32 pm »
Could have reduced the population to a very small number of initial survivors, perhaps 3 men and a few or so women.  Then many thousands of years later (i.e. now), there could be hundreds of millions or billions of people from that original event.

The DNA doesn't show that.

Imagine, as a contrived example, there are 1,000 men. 1 of them has sons, while all the others have daughters (obviously contrived, but for illustrative purposes). Thousands of years later, a study of Y chromosomes will find that there was a single originator of it. But he is not the only super-grandfather. All thousand men are super-grandfathers, and their DNA is widely spread. They're just not discoverable through the Y chromosome.

Every man who has only daughters, vanishes from a Y chromosome analysis. Every man who has sons, but whose great-grandsons are all killed in a war, vanishes from the analysis. Y chromosome lineages are always vanishing.

It doesn't mean that there was a time when there was only one man.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2023, 05:04:47 pm »
The DNA doesn't show that.

Imagine, as a contrived example, there are 1,000 men. 1 of them has sons, while all the others have daughters (obviously contrived, but for illustrative purposes). Thousands of years later, a study of Y chromosomes will find that there was a single originator of it. But he is not the only super-grandfather. All thousand men are super-grandfathers, and their DNA is widely spread. They're just not discoverable through the Y chromosome.

Every man who has only daughters, vanishes from a Y chromosome analysis. Every man who has sons, but whose great-grandsons are all killed in a war, vanishes from the analysis. Y chromosome lineages are always vanishing.

It doesn't mean that there was a time when there was only one man.

That makes sense, thanks for clearing that up for me (and others).
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2023, 06:23:53 pm »
clean and unclean suggests some animals may have dna corruption.

Unclean animals are the ones that behave in an unclean manner (scavengers, living in filth, etc.). God forbids eating them, which is part of the kosher laws.
My interpretation is that the meat from such animals (like pigs) is hard to preserve for a reasonable amount of time c.q. needs to be cooked thouroughly. The invention of refridgerators / freezers has eliminated the preservation problem.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rea5245Topic starter

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2023, 06:32:40 pm »
My interpretation is that the meat from such animals (like pigs) is hard to preserve for a reasonable amount of time c.q. needs to be cooked thouroughly.

I'd never heard that interpretation before. Is it really the case that the meat of animals with cloven hoofs who chew their cud, is easier to preserve than others?

In any case, it's not a matter of DNA corruption.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2023, 06:40:21 pm »
I was taught that swine (pork) was deemed "unclean" due to the real and present danger of trichinosis.
The Hebrew scriptures include a lot of other edibles as unclean, as well.
See Leviticus, chapter 11.  The lists of clean and unclean include mammals, birds, seafood, and insects.
When working with a Muslim in the UK, in order to avoid accidental offense to other Muslim co-workers, I asked what besides pork and alcohol was unclean in Islam.
His basic answer was things not likely to be found there (such as roadkill), but to watch for food that had been cooked in lard.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 06:51:13 pm by TimFox »
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: Pride month science
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2023, 09:10:54 pm »
Well guys, if the Chicxulub meteor event did for the dinosaurs, some 74,000 years ago, the Toba Super Eruption almost did for the human race.

The theory goes that after one of the largest recorded paleo eruptions of the Holocene epoch, the resulting climate catastrophe depleted the population of homo sapiens to such a small number, that humanity found itself on the endangered species red list. From just a few thousand breeding pairs, the DNA of those survivors is in each and every one of us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

Red list of endangered species : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Red_List
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 09:13:07 pm by AndyBeez »
 
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