EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: Homer J Simpson on February 24, 2019, 05:54:31 pm
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RCdrh666w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RCdrh666w)
-
Bad design if it forces you to remove so many trim pieces, they could have easily made this a lot more serviceable! |O But interesting battery pack form factor, how much capacity do these things have?
Also, this car is impressive in a way, it somehow manages to be even uglier than the Fiat Multipla, which is a difficult feat.
-
The battery is not the easiest thing to get to, but I think it was designed to last the life of the car in most cases. My partner has a 2002 Prius which is still going strong on the original battery, a friend of mine had one that was newer but had over 300k miles on it, also on the original battery. Even though it's a bit of a pain, replacing the battery is a lot less work than changing a clutch, replacing suspension bushings or any number of other tasks you might do once in the life of the average car. It's the most boring car I've ever driven but I don't really understand the hate, it has been impeccably reliable, it gets good mileage for the age and it gets her around.
-
So the choice was a 2nd hand batterypack with good but unknown history condition, 4 hrs of work (8 for novice) with risk of damaging something for $1500 + tools + hours (free),
or let the garage install a brand new batterypack (probabably guess cost around $2500/$3000.- )and they take all the risks, guarantee and labour for $4000.-
I think I would have taken the latter, you can sell it with an upprice later since you have official guarantee/warranty and papers.
-
So the choice was a 2nd hand batterypack with good but unknown history condition
Did you watch the same video I did? He clearly said it's a rebuilt battery pack, warrantied for 3 years. Most people already own basic wrenches. The only way this would take 8 hrs is if you only had one arm.
I don't think about "risks" when I work on my car because I don't fuck things up. I trust my own workmanship more than what most "mechanics" out there are capable of doing.
-
Thanks for sharing this video.
I expected the battery pack to be larger on a Prius.
-
Bad design if it forces you to remove so many trim pieces, they could have easily made this a lot more serviceable! |O But interesting battery pack form factor, how much capacity do these things have?
Also, this car is impressive in a way, it somehow manages to be even uglier than the Fiat Multipla, which is a difficult feat.
Its no big disadvantage if it takes a while to replace something that lasts for many years. On the other hand, if you see an expensive part, like this battery, which is really easy to get to, you might worry that the thing needs replacing a lot, and will lead to high maintenance costs. Some things really are made hard to get to for marketing reasons.
-
Its no big disadvantage if it takes a while to replace something that lasts for many years. On the other hand, if you see an expensive part, like this battery, which is really easy to get to, you might worry that the thing needs replacing a lot, and will lead to high maintenance costs. Some things really are made hard to get to for marketing reasons.
That's a silly excuse, if they had moved the mounting brackets a few centimetres they'd have had the same structural integrity and you would have had to remove exactly one piece of trimming. So most people still wouldn't have risked it, but it'd make it a whole lot easier for maintenance.
-
Did you watch the same video I did? He clearly said it's a rebuilt battery pack, warrantied for 3 years.
Yes not brand new, refurbished, 2nd hand, that is what I say.
-
We live in an age where catalytic converter theft is common. Personally I would want the expensive battery buried pretty deep in the car to deter battery theft. The built in car radios in some cars are also made challenging to remove for similar reasons.
I enjoyed the video, well made and clear instructions. It actually looked a pretty fun little exercise and a lot less challenging than some of the repairs I have had to do on combustion engine exhausts, Cooling systems and gearboxes.
Regarding the ‘rebuilt battery’. There are two sorts of replacement battery commonly sold. One is actually brand new and matched cells that are a complete set that just replace the cells within the battery casing to create what is effectively brand new battery. This looks to be the option chosen in the video. The other, cheaper, option is recycled batteries that are collected together from many used battery packs and tested for capacity etc. Sets of used, but tested OK, cells are matched together and sold as ‘rebuilt’ sets. In some ways this is not a true description as the cells are not actually rebuilt at all. How can this be a good idea I hear you ask. Well in a battery pack there will normally be a few cells that degrade quicker than the rest of the pack. The battery management computer detects this and raises a battery fault. Theoretically, the remaining good cells still have a decent amount of life in them. On a smaller scale, this is seen on laptop batteries where one cell goes out of spec and triggers a battery lockout from the management chip.
A battery that is rebuilt using used, but tested, cells is sometimes a very economic way to get an electric Hybrid working on battery power again. The savings can be considerable. Much depends upon the intended use of the vehicle and the expectations of the owner. When selling a used car, a used car dealer may not want to spend too much on getting the battery working again so might consider a used but tested battery as a viable option.
Fraser
-
Did you watch the same video I did? He clearly said it's a rebuilt battery pack, warrantied for 3 years.
Yes not brand new, refurbished, 2nd hand, that is what I say.
Some reusable parts will be second hand. The rest are reconditioned or replaced to work like new. Not "unknown condition". If they are expected to last six years, then $250 per year for these batteries seems ok to me. That's a few tanks of gas.
-
We live in an age where catalytic converter theft is common. Personally I would want the expensive battery buried pretty deep in the car to deter battery theft. The built in car radios in some cars are also made challenging to remove for similar reasons.
They cut those out with torches and angle grinders, moving the brackets a few centimetres won't make a difference, they'll just crowbar them out or cut through them anyway.
-
Some reusable parts will be second hand. The rest are reconditioned or replaced to work like new. Not "unknown condition". If they are expected to last six years, then $250 per year for these batteries seems ok to me. That's a few tanks of gas.
It is the difference.
A factory new balanced cellpack which should last at least 10 years (as did the previous) for $2500/3000 (add a $1000-1500 labour or do it yourself)
or a refurbished cellpack where you don't know the history/condition or expected lifetime except that they guarantee it for 3 years for $1500.-
If you want to drive a couple of years fine you are right that is a good deal. When you want to drive it for 5 years or longer I would opt for option 2 since the chances are high you need to replace the pack again .
Reconditioning LiIon packs, I have never heard of it, I know used ones are salvaged and the bad cells thrown out but reconditioning so they can last more years , please tell me with a link.
-
There's no way that's $1k+ in labor, what mechanic is charging $250/hr?
Anyway a new battery is a good option if you can afford it and decide the car is worth it. Personally I'd have no problem installing a good used battery, especially if I wanted to keep the car only a few years longer. I'm accustomed to installing used parts since I prefer old cars and often new OEM parts are NLA. Rebuilt is the best you can do sometimes and the best many can afford. Some people worry about it, I don't, I'm a competent mechanic.
-
A factory new balanced cellpack ... for $2500/3000
$3860. He shows it right in the video.
He also said the reman one is balanced.
-
IMHO it's similar to replacing something like a gearbox. I've installed used gearboxes in a number of cars and so far haven't really had an issue. I'll make use of a good serviceable used part before spending a bunch on a rebuild. When you know what you're doing it's not that hard to do the swap.
-
A factory new balanced cellpack ... for $2500/3000
$3860. He shows it right in the video.
Including labour perhaps or a dealer stealer :)
As we’ve told you before, the unit cost of a Toyota Prius battery pack is between $2,300 and $2,590, depending on the model you have. Installation of a new pack is likely to cost you more. However, for reference, the cost of replacing a battery pack is a little less than the avearge engine rebuild on a similar-age high-mileage car.
-
There have been many aftermarket batteries for Prius, to turn it into a plug in hybrid.
-
I hope the one under the backseat of my Honda Insight is easier to replace than the Prius. Since the car is new I have a few years to go.
-
This is my argument against electric cars, the battery takes too long to charge and if it dies in any way then it is an expensive repair. Until the battery in an electric car is the size and weight of a briefcase I'm not interested in owning one of the vehicles.
Just imagine the scene in 2026. You're driving along in your electric car and the 'low charge' light comes on. no problem because you know that you have at least another 50 Km before the car stops. 10 Km down the road you find a battery station so you pull in, open the trunk, pull the discharged battery out of the mounting frame and exchange it for a charged device. Before you drive off you swipe your credit card to pay for the battery charge and a fixed fee to cover depreciation. Driving away your vehicle detects the exchanged battery and the dash display now notes that you have 400 Km left.
-
We aren't anywhere close to that kind of energy density for batteries.
Fuel cells make more sense. Clean electric power, and you can stop and refuel just like with gasoline.
-
Start at 1:34 ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UENRVfdnGxs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UENRVfdnGxs)
-
Replacing the batteries is not something most people will have to do in the life of the car, maybe once for a particularly long lived car. If you amortize it out to the cost per year over 10-15 years it's not really that much at all. It's a bit like replacing an engine or gearbox in a conventional car, people do it occasionally but most cars go from the dealer to the scrapper with all their original running gear. I do expect EV batteries to drop in price over time though, the Prius batteries were originally $10k and now you can get aftermarket replacements new with warranty for around $2k.
The time to charge is largely irrelevant, everyone I know with an EV (5 or 6 people now) use it for commuting and plug it in when they get home in the evening, by the next morning it's full and ready to go. Every one of them has raved about the convenience of being able to just plug in at home instead of having to go out of their way to fill up at a gas station. They all are multi-car families and have a conventional gas or diesel car for longer trips. EVs aren't for everyone, they're for commuting to work and driving around town. Other options such as conventional ICE and hybrid cars exist for those who do not fit this use case.
-
It's a bit like replacing an engine or gearbox in a conventional car
How long did they say the battery is supposed to last ... 12 years I think?
If you take care of an engine or gearbox, it should last longer than that.
-
It's a bit like replacing an engine or gearbox in a conventional car
How long did they say the battery is supposed to last ... 12 years I think?
If you take care of an engine or gearbox, it should last longer than that.
Should yes, but so what? 12 years is still a reasonable interval between major service, especially when you consider all the regular maintenance like oil changes that aren't necessary. In practice the hybrid batteries are lasting much longer than that anyway, my partner has a 2002 Prius with the original traction battery still going strong. Modern pure EVs haven't been around long enough to have the data yet.
-
Walnut Creek, CA best quote for replacing a Prius battery $5k. about six months ago..ended buying a 2019 Rav 4loaded.
About EV cars..I remember seeing a Sears parking lot, a Delorean EV car - claimed 120 miles per charge.Sears was backing it. no idea if any were sold..but it was soooo cool!
Ford made a pickup truck for awhile that was hybrid..mid 1990's I think..No one really paid attention and Ford did not really promote..they are hard to find, but those that did get one have been really happy with them..Some still running with minor tuneups to date..no idea how many miles put on it. Regarding mileage..mileage is good. One friend commutes 100 miles each way, does not wall or household charge. just uses the cars regenerative charging. spends around $50 month on gas..at $4 per gallon. average DIY EV gets around 100 to 120 miles per charge..some claim just over 200 miles per charge. One guy dropped the $$ for a Tesla SUV he said he averages almost 200 miles per charge..stock and no proof he really gets that.
Regarding EV cars..With the Power Walls that Tesla developed, and people all all over are either making their own or making and selling third party ones. EV will most likely increase dramatically. They power and acceleration is amazing..seen an EV blow a Corvette away on a 0 to 60 test. EV do not even require gear changing...electric motor and all. However many DYI ers keep manual gear shifting in place. just for the enjoyment of still having to change gears.
With extra solar panels on the roof and an EV car or two...zip cost cost. plus EV cars are cleaner and easier to work on..so long as you're comfortable working around high voltage.
What I do not like is DYI ing a vehicle because typically you lose your trunk (or boot). others go so far as eliminating the back seat. Trunks work well, if you use the underside of the truck bed.
A lot said here. I have been looking into EV technology for awhile. It is not quite there yet for my uses.
-
This discussion is academic, since AOC wants to ban vehicles and the world is going to end in 11 years, 10 months.
-
Replacing the batteries is not something most people will have to do in the life of the car, maybe once for a particularly long lived car. If you amortize it out to the cost per year over 10-15 years it's not really that much at all. It's a bit like replacing an engine or gearbox in a conventional car, people do it occasionally but most cars go from the dealer to the scrapper with all their original running gear. I do expect EV batteries to drop in price over time though, the Prius batteries were originally $10k and now you can get aftermarket replacements new with warranty for around $2k.
The time to charge is largely irrelevant, everyone I know with an EV (5 or 6 people now) use it for commuting and plug it in when they get home in the evening, by the next morning it's full and ready to go. Every one of them has raved about the convenience of being able to just plug in at home instead of having to go out of their way to fill up at a gas station. They all are multi-car families and have a conventional gas or diesel car for longer trips. EVs aren't for everyone, they're for commuting to work and driving around town. Other options such as conventional ICE and hybrid cars exist for those who do not fit this use case.
As an EV owner you put this very well. I would add they are also very fun to drive and using only one foot to drive fundamentally changes how you drive. A lot of people have questions about these cars and I think the first 13 minutes of "Living With An Electric Car Changed My Mind" on YouTube summarizes some of the basics and benefits of an EV well.