Problems if we all had Tesla cars

[IanB]

Most people will charge their cars at night, or late evening, when solar is at a minimum, and wind is too intermittent.

You can drive your car to work and plug it in to charge during the day so it is charged and ready when you go home. My place of work has electric vehicle charging points, as does the local shopping center. As the number of electric vehicles grows, so will the number of public charging points.

[tom66]

Why do none have simple regenerative braking with small batteries? It is quite an eyeopener measuring the current used by the latest engine management systems, I measured nearly 12A, all the time. Add to the electric ABS system and steering and if the alternator dies then you won't go far. Why not a small, 100-200Ah battery or supercapacitor etc to store braking energy. This can then be used to power the electrics, not the car, for the next mile or so.

What you're talking about is a mild hybrid, and it's becoming more popular. I believe Fiat is making it standard on the next Fiat 500.

One other thing I thought of, in manual gearbox cars I wonder how much power is dissipated when using the clutch and gearbox. I wonder when it will be more efficient to have the engine drive a generator and electric motor, completely bypassing the gearbox/clutch losses (esp low speed and start/stop stuff). Almost all hybrids still have a connection between the engine and wheels that is selectively engaged.

[IanB]

One other thing I thought of, in manual gearbox cars I wonder how much power is dissipated when using the clutch and gearbox. I wonder when it will be more efficient to have the engine drive a generator and electric motor, completely bypassing the gearbox/clutch losses (esp low speed and start/stop stuff). Almost all hybrids still have a connection between the engine and wheels that is selectively engaged.

I think there are some buses that work this way, it's known as series hybrid. The bus is all electric when in the centre of town, but it runs the engine to charge the batteries when in less densely populated areas.

[gildasd]

For fun and giggles, I once did a quick-and-dirty on how much more large nuclear power plants if we all drove electric cars.

It was monstrous.

But for the US, trade deficit would drop dramatically.
Stuff gets messy when you look at the big picture implications...

[gildasd]

blablabla... and wind is too intermittent...blablabla

Only on this point, in Belgium, the windmills are "throttled" to match power demand:
You might pass a field where three are still, and come back one hour later and only one is still and another turning slower than the others.
But that's the modern ones, not sure that the older "boxier" models can do this.
Offshore is pretty good, wind does not go strike nor is supplied by Wahabis or Putin.

[suicidaleggroll]

Also - Car registration will cost $5,000 to $10,000 per year.

The tax man is not going to cop the petrol tax loss.

I cant see them ever doing that, it will have to be a distance thing.

HAH!  Our registration is nearly that high in Colorado already.  It's about 2% of the car's value every year.  My measly $33k car costs ~$700/year in registration fees.  A $160k car would be over $3k/year as-is, without any adjustment to the system.  There is no mileage check, whether you drive your car 20k miles a year or 0 miles a year, the registration fee is the same.  With a drop in gas sales I could easily see them upping the registration fee a bit and hitting those numbers.

[GreyWoolfe]

Boy, do I feel bad for you.  Here in Florida, registration fees are based on weight of the vehicle.  Actually, last year the prices across the board went down.  Our registration went from $56 to $36.  It would have been $35 but I pay an extra dollar a year for my Amateur Radio license plate.

[ivan747]

Ugh. Dominican republic is so far behind in this matter. What countries like this need for uncongested traffic DECENT, reliable public transportation. Don't even get me started. (the Metro was a good step, still we're far behind).

After you sort out every single public transportation problem, the energy used to move people around is less, and congestion is waaay less. Then you can start thinking about electric cars with their grid implications and self driving transport (and the specialized roads some of these concepts need).

That last paragraph applies everywhere in the world. In my perception, Japan is quite far ahead with their trains. I haven't checked Europe close enough. The USA is far behind on public transportation because of their suburbial city planning and being a country where everything is flat, one storey high and has 5 times more land area for parking than it does for buildings. A handful of cities centers are the exception. Even Puerto Rico suffers from this a little bit, so I saw.

[Corporate666]

The more I learn about Mr Musk the more I reckon he's turning into the next James Bond supervillain. Anyway, I'll stick with what I originally said about electric cars, the day I can unplug my briefcase sized battery pack from my electric car and then carry the pack inside for an overnight charge I'll buy one of their vehicles. Until then, the technology isn't ready.

But that is a *really* high metric you're setting... sort of like saying that LCD TV's aren't ready until you can't see the pixels even inches away.  It's a much higher bar you're setting than with gas cars (you couldn't remove a tank of gas and carry it with you - even if you could carry a gallon or two, it's not so much).

[tszaboo]

EV adoption will help the grid no end. As we move towards renewables EVs will help smooth out the load. The massive increase in battery production and availability of cheap used battery packs will push down home battery pack prices too, and make nuclear and coal even less affordable.

The nuclear age haven't even started yet. We only scratched the surface of possibilities (yet some moronic governments shut down perfectly working reactors and don't start building new ones). Thorium has a potential to power us for the next 1000 years. Fusion to forever, if we can get rid of the side effect of boiling the planet. Not because of temperature of the reactor itself, the used electricity's waste heat.
We should steer away of using dead dinosaurs to fuel of our economy. It will only lead to wars and destruction if we don't.
BTW most people would buy a sensible electric car. Now all of them are built like a spaceship form a 90 science fiction movie or a luxury car.

[gildasd]

EV adoption will help the grid no end. As we move towards renewables EVs will help smooth out the load. The massive increase in battery production and availability of cheap used battery packs will push down home battery pack prices too, and make nuclear and coal even less affordable.

The nuclear age haven't even started yet. We only scratched the surface of possibilities (yet some moronic governments shut down perfectly working reactors and don't start building new ones). Thorium has a potential to power us for the next 1000 years. Fusion to forever, if we can get rid of the side effect of boiling the planet. Not because of temperature of the reactor itself, the used electricity's waste heat.
We should steer away of using dead dinosaurs to fuel of our economy. It will only lead to wars and destruction if we don't.
BTW most people would buy a sensible electric car. Now all of them are built like a spaceship form a 90 science fiction movie or a luxury car.

I bought a diesel hybrid last year, I truly think my next car (in 3/5 years) will be a plug in hybrid (where diesel makes more sense) or a full electric.
I  don't use the car during most days (more for school runs etc) and I have a big roof in the right orientation, that Tesla garage brick looks neat... So I look forward to day where I don't have to go to a petrol station or use the grid for 11 months of the year.

[nctnico]

Fusion to forever, if we can get rid of the side effect of boiling the planet. Not because of temperature of the reactor itself, the used electricity's waste heat.

The amount of energy the sun dumps on the earth is way more than we use (IIRC 1 million to 1).

[Deathwish]

The more I learn about Mr Musk the more I reckon he's turning into the next James Bond supervillain. Anyway, I'll stick with what I originally said about electric cars, the day I can unplug my briefcase sized battery pack from my electric car and then carry the pack inside for an overnight charge I'll buy one of their vehicles. Until then, the technology isn't ready.

Just remember the old Motorola brick mobile phone, things change rapidly in short time.

[daqq]

The more I learn about Mr Musk the more I reckon he's turning into the next James Bond supervillain.

I for one welcome our new Overlord - he seems much better than our current Overlords.

Anyway, I'll stick with what I originally said about electric cars, the day I can unplug my briefcase sized battery pack from my electric car and then carry the pack inside for an overnight charge I'll buy one of their vehicles. Until then, the technology isn't ready.

Any specific reason to have this metric of readiness? Do you often tear out your cars gas tank, bring it home and fill it there? What exactly is bad about hooking it up either to your garage, or if a garage is not available to a publicly available paid power outlet? By certain metrics EVs are more practical than the standard car - you don't need an additional massive gas distribution system, you can literally produce the "fuel" at home with some minimal equipment (solar panels)... to a degree ofcourse.

[tszaboo]

Fusion to forever, if we can get rid of the side effect of boiling the planet. Not because of temperature of the reactor itself, the used electricity's waste heat.

The amount of energy the sun dumps on the earth is way more than we use (IIRC 1 million to 1).

Well, for a Kardashev 1. type civilization maybe. I expect the power requirements to increase with the same rate, so double every 30 years or so, and solar power has it's practical limits.

[Ice-Tea]

Folks still seem to think the only problem with all haveing a Tesla or equivalent cards is with batteries or "some solar panels". So, here's some ballpark figures. Every single one probably has a 2x error factor, but hey, they're free 

I go through about 2 tanks of diesel per month. That's about 1200 litres per year. Diesel is about 40 000 000 J/kg. Density? Say, 0.9kg/l. So total yearly is about 12MWh. Let's put an IC engine's efficiency at about 50% (generous, I know ) So you're looking at 6MWh/year for a single car. Assuming no grid losses, conversion losses or any other losses (again: generous) and assuming an electric motor is 100 efficient (yes, generous...).

A large nuclear reactor puts out 1GW at full toss. Assuming no downtime, maintenance, the grid that can handle 100% at all times, no peak loads, perfectly balanced etc etc and  you end up with about 1 nuclear reactor for some 800 000 cars. That is of course, fairly optimistic given all the above optimistic assumptions, so it's probably more like half of that.

Doesn't sound too bad? Of course, personal transportion is only a relatively small portion of it all. Trucking, trains, busses,... All could be EV, so you need to add a lot more power to your shopping list.

Still sounds good? The odd thing for me is that EV vehicles don't make any sense. Or actually, they do. But if there was an abundance of relatively cheap, clean electricity there would be so much things that could be transitioned before you would try to fit a elementary non-mobile technology on a mobile thing such as a car. Per example, those heating their houses on fosil fuels burn more fuel annualy than their cars do. And to heat something like a house on electricity is a walk in the park, technically, compared to get a car of fosil fuels. Same goes for a million industrial processes.

Solar? Just put some panels on the roof? Let's take the 6MWh again. Around these parts I believe that you can expect about 1kWh per installed Wp. So, about 6kW is required.  Or, say, some 60m² well oriented roof. Or 120m² if you have two cars. More roof than most folks have.

[EEMarc]

and that's only half of it ...

I thought that the gigafactory 1 pilot program was 1/4 of the full sized plant.

[gildasd]

Folks still seem to thi.... roof than most folks have.

An IC motor in a car is at most 25% efficient etc etc etc. To get 50%, look at power plants or ship engines.

[German_EE]

"Anyway, I'll stick with what I originally said about electric cars, the day I can unplug my briefcase sized battery pack from my electric car and then carry the pack inside for an overnight charge I'll buy one of their vehicles. Until then, the technology isn't ready."

There are a number of reasons for that statement:

1) We live in a 4th floor apartment and our car is parked 75m away from our building in an assigned parking space. There is zero chance of getting a charging point installed without substantial work including 30m of underground cabling.

2) A battery pack the size and weight of a briefcase means that I can carry it upstairs to be charged, something which is not possible in existing electric vehicles.

3) I confirm that I do not carry fuel tanks up and down stairs BUT there are thousands of opportunities throughout Europe to fill that tank, there are far fewer charging points so charging needs to be much more convenient.

4) An empty battery pack the size and weight of a briefcase can be exchanged for a charged one within minutes, about as much time as it takes to fill my tank with diesel.

As for technology improving, I did not get my first mobile phone until a) I could fit it in my pocket and b) the price fell below 100 Euro. I also stayed with CRT monitors until LED backlights were established technology as I didn't like the yellowing of the screen as cold cathode displays aged. In other words, I'm prepared to wait until technology meets my needs.

[suicidaleggroll]

There are a number of reasons for that statement:

...

I'm prepared to wait until technology meets my needs.

"Until then, the technology isn't ready" and "Until then, the technology doesn't meet my needs" are two entirely different statements.  Had you said the latter, I doubt anybody would have questioned you on it, but you said the former, which is rather ridiculous.

[nctnico]

"Anyway, I'll stick with what I originally said about electric cars, the day I can unplug my briefcase sized battery pack from my electric car and then carry the pack inside for an overnight charge I'll buy one of their vehicles. Until then, the technology isn't ready."

There are a number of reasons for that statement:

1) We live in a 4th floor apartment and our car is parked 75m away from our building in an assigned parking space. There is zero chance of getting a charging point installed without substantial work including 30m of underground cabling.

Charging an EV at home is a big misconception especially if the car has to stay outdoors. You don't fuel your car at home but go to a gas station...

[B.B.Bubby]

"Anyway, I'll stick with what I originally said about electric cars, the day I can unplug my briefcase sized battery pack from my electric car and then carry the pack inside for an overnight charge I'll buy one of their vehicles. Until then, the technology isn't ready."

There are a number of reasons for that statement:

1) We live in a 4th floor apartment and our car is parked 75m away from our building in an assigned parking space. There is zero chance of getting a charging point installed without substantial work including 30m of underground cabling.

2) A battery pack the size and weight of a briefcase means that I can carry it upstairs to be charged, something which is not possible in existing electric vehicles.

3) I confirm that I do not carry fuel tanks up and down stairs BUT there are thousands of opportunities throughout Europe to fill that tank, there are far fewer charging points so charging needs to be much more convenient.

4) An empty battery pack the size and weight of a briefcase can be exchanged for a charged one within minutes, about as much time as it takes to fill my tank with diesel.

As for technology improving, I did not get my first mobile phone until a) I could fit it in my pocket and b) the price fell below 100 Euro. I also stayed with CRT monitors until LED backlights were established technology as I didn't like the yellowing of the screen as cold cathode displays aged. In other words, I'm prepared to wait until technology meets my needs.

It's funny most people in Australia, USA, Canada etc live in houses on 1/4 acre blocks. Not such a big deal to set up a home charging station. But yeah  Europe and such places it's not really an option.   

[free_electron]

"Anyway, I'll stick with what I originally said about electric cars, the day I can unplug my briefcase sized battery pack from my electric car and then carry the pack inside for an overnight charge I'll buy one of their vehicles. Until then, the technology isn't ready."

There are a number of reasons for that statement:

1) We live in a 4th floor apartment and our car is parked 75m away from our building in an assigned parking space. There is zero chance of getting a charging point installed without substantial work including 30m of underground cabling.

2) A battery pack the size and weight of a briefcase means that I can carry it upstairs to be charged, something which is not possible in existing electric vehicles.

3) I confirm that I do not carry fuel tanks up and down stairs BUT there are thousands of opportunities throughout Europe to fill that tank, there are far fewer charging points so charging needs to be much more convenient.

4) An empty battery pack the size and weight of a briefcase can be exchanged for a charged one within minutes, about as much time as it takes to fill my tank with diesel.

As for technology improving, I did not get my first mobile phone until a) I could fit it in my pocket and b) the price fell below 100 Euro. I also stayed with CRT monitors until LED backlights were established technology as I didn't like the yellowing of the screen as cold cathode displays aged. In other words, I'm prepared to wait until technology meets my needs.

That is why there will be charger stations also at work , at shopping malls, at restaurants, in parking lots of the town and why there are superchargers for long distance runs or we can have battery swap stations  (less time to swap than filling a regular petrol tank ) .. you don't necessarily need to charge at home. not when you have a pack that holds 500 km range ...

your situation has been anticipated and is understood and there is a solution. the problem you perceive is not a problem at all. there is no incentive for you to drag out that heavy pack , up the stairs and plug it in as your apartment block has not enough roof space to have solar to feed all occupants of the apartment block anyway. you would need to load the grid. we don't want to load the grid.  you use public infrastructure when shopping , errands, parked at a station or parked at work.  and don't say 'charging at work is impossible as it would require a plug per parking space. parkings in scandinavian countries have electrical outlets per stall to keep the motorblock warm in winter. has bene done for 50 years. can be done everywhere. existing and proven technology. it will give several tens kilometer per hour. spend an hour at a supermarket and you recharged the trip to and from ... net charge consumption zero.

[Someone]

The more powerful model we were in costs $160K here. They won't sell well at this price.

True enough, but that seems to be an "Australia tax". I don't think they cost quite that much in America.

We don't have any rebates, tax advantages, or reductions in operating costs for electric vehicles so the cost to buy and run an electric car is much higher than in other comparable countries such as the US or UK. Further there isn't the network of supercharging stations (one at each of the two dealers and one standalone in Sydney city) so you don't get that benefit yet.

3) this 'peak' charging does not happen. The superchargers are installed in locations convenient for long trips but inconvenient for daily charge. People should do daily chargig at home. Car is always topped off so range is never a problem. Costs pennies compared to dollars in fuel.

If you're going to jump in you really need to disclose your commercial relationship with the Telsa products. Driving a Telsa in Melbourne Australia would cost a similar amount in dollars of electricity when compared to fuel in an efficient Mercedes, and a Tesla running on the current mix of Victorian power would emit roughly the same CO2 emissions as a conventional IC engined car (you can buy clean power just as you can buy carbon offsets for the IC engine, and some of the "green power" is actually just regular power with carbon offsets applied). As above there is no network of superchargers and it would require 3 or more carefully positioned just between Sydney and Melbourne to make that trip possible along the major highway, and the IC engined cars would make the trip quicker.

Why do none have simple regenerative braking with small batteries? It is quite an eyeopener measuring the current used by the latest engine management systems, I measured nearly 12A, all the time. Add to the electric ABS system and steering and if the alternator dies then you won't go far. Why not a small, 100-200Ah battery or supercapacitor etc to store braking energy. This can then be used to power the electrics, not the car, for the next mile or so.

What you're talking about is a mild hybrid, and it's becoming more popular. I believe Fiat is making it standard on the next Fiat 500.

One other thing I thought of, in manual gearbox cars I wonder how much power is dissipated when using the clutch and gearbox. I wonder when it will be more efficient to have the engine drive a generator and electric motor, completely bypassing the gearbox/clutch losses (esp low speed and start/stop stuff). Almost all hybrids still have a connection between the engine and wheels that is selectively engaged.

A mild hybrid is close to the optimum point for energy efficiency with current technology, just enough batteries to drive several km and a IC engine which comes on periodically to maintain the battery charge as required. While impressive the hybrid synergy drive of the Prius cannot compete with the low losses of a conventional transmission, and the marketing department weighed in and added "Gears" that the car surges in acceleration to make the CVT feel more like a conventional vehicle. There are efficiencies to be found in clever transmissions, but the peak efficiencies are still found with the IC engine coupled mechanically through to the drive wheels when needed.

[free_electron]

If you're going to jump in you really need to disclose your commercial relationship with the Telsa products.

What i write here is from the perspective of a Tesla owner. I have one , had it for over a year. i did not have to adapt. range is not an issue.

Driving a Telsa in Melbourne Australia would cost a similar amount in dollars of electricity

Not Tesla's problem. If aussie electricity is really that expensive you need to rally the power companies there. Australia is a prime candidate for cheap solar.  You are the perfect location.

when compared to fuel in an efficient Mercedes, and a Tesla running on the current mix of Victorian power would emit roughly the same CO2 emissions as a conventional IC engined car (you can buy clean power just as you can buy carbon offsets for the IC engine, and some of the "green power" is actually just regular power with carbon offsets applied).

i have not touched on this topic. i purely look at it from a usage perspective. if you wanna play this game : the moment Tesla has enough batteries filled by solarcity panels then this game stops and you will lose. The production of panels and batteries does produce co , but the longer they are in use the smaller this ratio becomes. your ice cars keep on spewing a constant stream of crap ( not counting the amount of crap created during transport, distillation and drilling the fossil fuel. And the billions of dollars in subsidy big oil gets ...  but let's not go there. this is a technical discussion.

[/quote]As above there is no network of superchargers [/quote]
rolling out right now. US is 60% covered , europe same. Given that Australia only has had Tesla;s for 6 months there are already some superchargers and more are coming

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/supercharger

and it would require 3 or more carefully positioned just between Sydney and Melbourne

how about 7 , no need for 'carefull' , plenty will do.

and the IC engined cars would make the trip quicker.

If you drive non stop, maybe
After two hours of non stop driving i need a pee and a cup of coffee ... 20 minutes. enough to put 150 miles back in the pack and have another 2 hour run.. and you will need fuel for that run also...  if i use swapping technology i will win as i can swap the pack in half the time it takes you to fill up.

Your points are moot. i speak of experience. i've done San Jose to LA and beyond. not a problem. I charge at work , i charged at home before i could charge at work. I get in the car in the morning or evening and the 'tank' is always completely full. i can go the whole weekend without having to charge at home. There is no ' shit i still need fuel' moment. Range anxiety doesn't exist once the supercharger grid is complete ( the grid in cali is almost complete , it is complete within a 5 hour radius from where i live, they are adding a few 'convenience spots' and tourist attraction spots ). i can use regular ev charging  grid as well to cover small gaps. there is also 'destination charging'. Any hotel willing to donate a parking stall can get HPWC charger installed for free. Tesla will come and install the equipment. hotels love it as it brings in customers.

This IS a problem with cars having small packs and long charge times on those idiotic underpowered j1772 plugs. Chademo is also laughable. Those 'standards' are made by commitees of car builders that do not understand EV technology. IF you want to make EV work you need to throw power at it. 400 volts 330 amps. none of these 80 and 120 amp jokes. you need to charge in 20 minutes for a 'hopping' (charger to charger 2 hour runs, basically the 'pee interval')  range and 1 hour max for 300 mile range.

I;ve had my car over a year, not a single range anxiety moment , not a single inconvenient moment. actually it is more convenient. it holds more cargo , handles better, is more fun , has more creature comfort , a great infotainment / telematics system . it puts the fun back in taking the car out for a sunday roadtrip through the mountains. for daily usage it's always full , for long runs charging concides with pee stops.  just like with a traditionally fueled car.