Author Topic: Problems if we all had Tesla cars  (Read 90027 times)

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Offline Delta

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2015, 01:02:31 am »
If everyone drove an electric car, we'd have to mine a lot more coal...
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2015, 01:53:45 am »
Quote
Driving a Telsa in Melbourne Australia would cost a similar amount in dollars of electricity
Not Tesla's problem. If aussie electricity is really that expensive you need to rally the power companies there. Australia is a prime candidate for cheap solar.  You are the perfect location.
Not anyones problem in particular, but you propagate the myth that electric cars are cheap to run. Energy prices vary wildly worldwide and electricity (a very highly refined form of energy) is more expensive per unit of energy delivered in some countries, such as Australia:
http://www.aemc.gov.au/getattachment/ae5d0665-7300-4a0d-b3b2-bd42d82cf737/2014-Residential-Electricity-Price-Trends-report.aspx
https://motormouth.com.au/news/mediadata.aspx
Which puts the Mercedes Benz C220 CDI @ 4.5l/100km combined cycle at $5.76/100km and a Tesla @ 22kwh/100km (the ambitious EPA rating, yet to see the Australian sticker rating) would be $6.30. Which is a far cry from your:
Costs pennies compared to dollars in fuel.
Even changing the electricity price to a marginal price of selling your solar instead of charging your car its still not even a factor of 10 cheaper or approaching your 100x magnitude comparison, and the EPA rating is unlikely to match real world costs.

and the IC engined cars would make the trip quicker.

If you drive non stop, maybe
After two hours of non stop driving i need a pee and a cup of coffee ... 20 minutes. enough to put 150 miles back in the pack and have another 2 hour run.. and you will need fuel for that run also...  if i use swapping technology i will win as i can swap the pack in half the time it takes you to fill up.

Your points are moot. i speak of experience. i've done San Jose to LA and beyond. not a problem. I charge at work , i charged at home before i could charge at work. I get in the car in the morning or evening and the 'tank' is always completely full. i can go the whole weekend without having to charge at home. There is no ' shit i still need fuel' moment. Range anxiety doesn't exist once the supercharger grid is complete ( the grid in cali is almost complete , it is complete within a 5 hour radius from where i live, they are adding a few 'convenience spots' and tourist attraction spots ). i can use regular ev charging  grid as well to cover small gaps. there is also 'destination charging'. Any hotel willing to donate a parking stall can get HPWC charger installed for free. Tesla will come and install the equipment. hotels love it as it brings in customers.
Adding hours to a journey is a cost, you look at Australian customs and dismiss them which is rather rude, many people routinely drive 6 and 8 hour lengths without a second though and would stop as little as possible. I've driven Melbourne <> Sydney without stopping in either direction and have completed the round trip on a single tank of fuel I know how to manage range. Vehicles with multiple auxiliary fuel tanks are still common enough in Australia for people travelling the centre or northwest. The Hume Highway is one of several routes and until the super charging stations are widely distributed at least around the eastern states the cars will remain an excellent choice for city travel only.

Also note you charge not exclusively at superchargers but at a range of locations.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2015, 03:25:23 am »
Quote
Driving a Telsa in Melbourne Australia would cost a similar amount in dollars of electricity
Not Tesla's problem. If aussie electricity is really that expensive you need to rally the power companies there. Australia is a prime candidate for cheap solar.  You are the perfect location.
Not anyones problem in particular, but you propagate the myth that electric cars are cheap to run.


They are where i live ( and in many other places as well ). I had a simple 2 litre Chrysler sebring with 23 miles to the gallon. The roundtrip from home to work at 4.xx $ per gallon set me back almost 4.5$ a day. Same trip in electricity here in california ( which is not exactly a cheap state ) charging purely at home ( so out of my pocket , no free power) : 90 CENTS ! do the math ... that's 1/4 approaching 1/5.

Unfortunately not everywhere in the world there is access to such cheap power. I'm baffled power is so expensive in australia. what causes that ? transportation costs due to the large distances ? surely not production. or is it taxed extremely high ? That can be overcome by installing your own solar array combined with a powerwall and go completely off-grid. Use of the  Supercharger network is free as in -gratis-. In europe fuel is even more expensive. Countries like denmark have a near zero cost when it comes to electricity as they produce it using huge windmill farms.

Not a myth that it's cheap to run. Same reports from almost all Tesla owners. Unfortunately Oz seems to be the odd one out. Bummer.

Quote
Vehicles with multiple auxiliary fuel tanks
That is a non-standard car.  You need to compare apples to apples. My comparison is based on a traditional car like audi a6 , BMW7 Merc S class ( same price bracket as Model S ). There is no difference in operating. The Tesla costs more but that is with all new stuff. 50 inch Plasma and LCD TV's were 5K , now are 700$ ...

Quote
The Hume Highway is one of several routes and until the super charging stations are widely distributed at least around the eastern states the cars will remain an excellent choice for city travel only.
True. like i said. Tesla has only been in Australia 6 months. Building a supercharger network takes time. There is a map that shows what is in place and what is coming. Every single day , somewhere in the world, a new supercharger opens each having between 8 and 14 stalls to charge. Give it time. For now it may not be practical to do that run you describe. 2 or 3 years form now ? things may look a lot different. By then Model 3 will be out with a target price of 32K$ and 200+ mile range ...

Quote
Also note you charge not exclusively at superchargers but at a range of locations.
Just like you not only have petrol stations on highways , but also in towns and villages. With electricity you have your own pump at home as well.

I understand that there are certain scenario's where the EV does not work , but in case of the Model S , over the available territory (where it is sold) , this is a minority and are outliers on the bell curve of 'traditional car usage'. THe other EV's are a narrow band on the bell curve due to their small battery packs. The Tesla grabs most of the bell.
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Offline Delta

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2015, 03:47:41 am »
" a simple 2 litre Chrysler sebring with 23 miles to the gallon"

I think this is why Yanks think that EVs are so cheap to run - They are so used to cars which do literally half the MPG to those that the rest of the world drive.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2015, 04:04:33 am »
" a simple 2 litre Chrysler sebring with 23 miles to the gallon"

I think this is why Yanks think that EVs are so cheap to run - They are so used to cars which do literally half the MPG to those that the rest of the world drive.

Our gasoline also costs half as much, so it evens out.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2015, 04:11:23 am »
" a simple 2 litre Chrysler sebring with 23 miles to the gallon"

I think this is why Yanks think that EVs are so cheap to run - They are so used to cars which do literally half the MPG to those that the rest of the world drive.

That's city miles, it's more about 30 miles to a gallon on the highway, compared to current 40 MPG cars is really not that bad for 10 year old tech.
But if you can find me a non hybrid 46 MPG in the city please share :)

Btw to free_electron, gas at $4 per gallon was a while back. Might get back to that? maybe, current average is $2.765 for regular.

Source:
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/

Edit: but sucks for California with the average being: $3.439 per gallon. More taxes, more regulation, less freedom state. Too bad you are trend setters :(


« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 04:15:13 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline BradC

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2015, 04:37:54 am »
But if you can find me a non hybrid 46 MPG in the city please share :)

46mpg -> 5.1l/100km. My wifes 10 year old 2L turbo diesel golf does that routinely and often gets 58mpg in the country (4l/100km).
My record was 3.6L/100km, over 300km but I was trying pretty hard. Those last couple of 10ths wind up in diminishing returns quite quickly.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2015, 04:57:16 am »
46mpg in the city? maybe your city has no stop signs, semaphores or pedestrians :)

But a 2005 TDI Golf (1.9L) can do 32 mpg in the city and that is pretty impressive!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 04:59:04 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2015, 05:19:23 am »
a few myth-busters...

Electricity in Denmark is VERY expensive despite green production is high - the base cost is okay - but the taxes on top are not...  - prices are about 0.302 Euro / kWh followed closely by Germany at about 0.290 Euro/kWh - making Denmark and Germany the absolute most expensive places to buy Electricity for consumers. (Add about 10% today to convert that to $/kWh). And indecently both Denmark and Germany have very high "Green" power production.

Denmark sell a lot of Tesla's (in proportion to citizens) - but one of the biggest reasons is you save the 180% car tax when buying electric cars. That does seem like it will change soon. But right now you can get Tesla  "BMW@  kind of Luxury car for about 2/5 (44% ) of the price of the BMW 6 series.

A 2 year old BMW 650i with 70.000 km on the clock is advertised in Denmark for about $205.000! (New price $290.500)
To compare - a BRAND NEW Tesla S P85D would set you back $129.385,- including VAT. Just because you save the 180% car tax.

So what will happen if and when car taxes in Denmark will be equalized? Tesla sales will drop like a stone. And with the new conservative government - there will most likely be changes in how EV's are taxed.

On top of that you save on road taxes as well (yes there are road taxes on top)

But for me - while I live in the UAE - a Tesla would not be in the cards. With 50c+ outside temperatures during the summer - Air Condition would take the range down - and charge time would go through the roof. The battery cooling system would run in overdrive and non-stop while charging. And I guess battery lifetime would decrease a lot.

But since I'm relocating to the UK/London area soon - I'm considering a Tesla S or X. Why - because in London you do not need to drive a lot. You save the "Congestion Tax" (For now anyway) - and I can squeeze 7 seats in a Tesla S - with 2 child seats in the boot. There are not a lot of Supercharger stations yet - but enough to get around. And there is one on the way to the in-laws - (a 4 1/2 hour drive away). The weather is awful - but great for the batteries :) (Not too cold - not too hot) - and I can save on maintenance and fuel is darn expensive (about GBP 1.15 / litre)

But I'm reaching towards independence from the energy grid as energy will only get more and more expensive over time. So I will get solar water heaters for my house and try to get solar EV panels & " home energy storage " with backup generators to future proof my residence. Just because I want to be as independent as possible.

The day I can say I'm 100% 3rd party energy delivery independent will be a great day. I might spend money in the wrong direction - invest wrong a few times  - but getting the ability to say "no thank you" to energy suppliers will make up for it in pure happiness. It is not about the money - it is about the freedom.

So Free_Electron :) can you help me get on the top of the UK list for the X model ? *G* :)

/rant over

 

Offline Someone

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2015, 05:23:34 am »
Vehicles with multiple auxiliary fuel tanks
That is a non-standard car.  You need to compare apples to apples. My comparison is based on a traditional car like audi a6 , BMW7 Merc S class ( same price bracket as Model S ). There is no difference in operating. The Tesla costs more but that is with all new stuff. 50 inch Plasma and LCD TV's were 5K , now are 700$ ...
Yet you compare a current model luxury coupe to your hilarious car that sucks fuel, the Mercedes Benz C 220 CDI seems a very fair comparison.

Also note you charge not exclusively at superchargers but at a range of locations.
Just like you not only have petrol stations on highways , but also in towns and villages. With electricity you have your own pump at home as well.

I understand that there are certain scenario's where the EV does not work , but in case of the Model S , over the available territory (where it is sold) , this is a minority and are outliers on the bell curve of 'traditional car usage'. THe other EV's are a narrow band on the bell curve due to their small battery packs. The Tesla grabs most of the bell.
Addressing your nod to the "free" electricity you can get from the supercharging stations, its free but you have to wait around at one since its unlikely they'll let you leave your car parked there and unlikely that it will be near enough to where you park for it to be the usual way to recharge. EV has its place but not in Australia at this time.

Here is a plot of the energy prices of many nations worldwide, the minority sit above the line plotted which is the point where electricity in a Tesla @ 22kwh/100km crosses over with the cost of Diesel in a Mercedes Benz C 220 CDI.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 05:43:49 am by Someone »
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2015, 05:33:51 am »
46mpg in the city? maybe your city has no stop signs, semaphores or pedestrians :)

But a 2005 TDI Golf (1.9L) can do 32 mpg in the city and that is pretty impressive!
Depends which "MPG" unit you use, can we stick to metic units that everyone understands and don't vary from country to country? My mother in a 10 year old car gets 5l/100km in predominantly city driving so its not hard to get into the range you suggest, with effort I keep under 4.5l/100km in congested traffic in the city.
 

Offline BradC

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2015, 05:58:43 am »
46mpg in the city? maybe your city has no stop signs, semaphores or pedestrians :)

But a 2005 TDI Golf (1.9L) can do 32 mpg in the city and that is pretty impressive!
Depends which "MPG" unit you use, can we stick to metic units that everyone understands and don't vary from country to country? My mother in a 10 year old car gets 5l/100km in predominantly city driving so its not hard to get into the range you suggest, with effort I keep under 4.5l/100km in congested traffic in the city.

Actually, I used US MPG because that's generally what they (those from the US that continue to use outdated and archaic measurement units) understand. My figures also come from 5 years of ownership whereas his likely come from a quick google search. To counter the confusion when dealing with someone from the US I always give measurements in dual units so people know where I'm coming from.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2015, 05:59:19 am »
you compare a current model luxury coupe to your hilarious car that sucks fuel, the Mercedes Benz C 220 CDI seems a very fair comparison.
I  compare to the market where i live. ( and also back to my home country )
- diesel in the USA ? 1) good luck finding such a car  2) diesel is more expensive than petrol, so why would you buy one ?
- in europe they are now also trying to ban diesels due to 'fine dust pollution'. In belgium there is no more advantage ( out of pocket operating cost) to run a diesel.
I drove a golf diesel for years while i was living there because it was cheaper to operate.

Quote
Addressing your nod to the "free" electricity you can get from the supercharging stations, its free but you have to wait around at once since its unlikely they'll let you leave your car parked there and unlikely that it will be near enough to where you park for it to be the usual way to recharge.

Supercharging is not meant for daily charging . It is meant to enable long distance runs. Daily charging is to be done at home, overnight ( you can fill an empty battery in 5 hours on a 240 volt 80 amps circuit if you have the HPWC and twin charger in the car. ) plug the car in at 10 pm and it is ready to go 300+ miles by 4 AM ...

Supercharging is meant to :plug it in , go pee and grab a coffee , and drive off. you don't park your car at the petrol pump either. The other type of charging ( the example i gave in norway with the block heaters ) that could be a situation where you can leave it a long term. Superchargers are strategically placed to discourage people form going there every day and drink for free.

Quote
EV has its place but not in Australia at this time.
agree , based on the stuff you posted, but that does not mean other countries should not do it . The world is larger than Oz. In some countries it works , in some it won't ,. just like it works for some people and doesn't for others ( for whatever reason , becasue they like exhaust noise, because they must have a ford , because they live in an apartment and don't have access to solar etc etc etc ).  point is : the Tesla is , currently, the only CAR , that happens to use electric propulsion. As opposed to being an intermediate in-between ,'not even usable beyond 35 miles one way trip' car like the Leaf is. With a Leaf i couldn't even drive someone to the local airport and make it back... ( airport is 45 miles away . leaf pack is 70 miles tops and needs hours to top off. As opposed to tens of  minutes.

As the infrastructure is being deployed ( when the first cars came on the market you couldn't get petrol easily. they needed to install petrol stations in the early 1900's when cars were first around ) it will become more and more usable.

combine the rollout of different technologies : solar , local storage to unblock the grid , long distance supercharging and EV becomes a viable solution. For large area's of the population it already is ( barring the price of the car , which in the next years will come down drastically due to economies of scale ) , for others it will become avaialble in the next few years. some will need to wait longer than others. That is life.

When i bought mine i looked at the Leaf, Volt , Plug in hybrids and lots of others. The end solution was always : get two cars , an EV and a petrol one to compensate for the lacking capabilities of the EV. In the end the total purchase price ( two cars ) was higher than the Tesla. ( A Leaf is not exactly cheap... 28K$ , throw in some creature comforts and a maxed out leaf climbs to 38K$ ... add a second car ( another 38K ) and you just blew past the base Tesla ...
and you don't have 8 years unlimited miles warranty, zero maintenance , no supercharging , depending on a mediocre third party operated charger grid , you can only fit 4 eople, have the cargo space to hold an umbrella , it's a little dinky toy that takes 9 seconds to climb to 60 MPh , and ... wait for it : be prepared to lose 25% of your batteries' capacity in the FIRST YEAR !!!  Nissan had a class action lawsuit on that one. their batteries failed massively because apparently they are not cooled correctly and get damaged ... The solved this partially and offered early buyers a new battery . Don't know what the state of their technology is now.

With the tesla i do not have to adapt to driving 'EV' in terms of range, charge times and planning around do long trips. It's always topped off and i do not need to alter my behavior because it does not have the shortcomings of other EV's. Ok, it costs more in purchase, but the 8 year warranty and zero maintence... i added the fuel, oilchanges, brakes, rotors, fuel and everything else ( a few repairs ) to my sebring and ended up at 90K$ over its 9 year i had it. So the additional 20K i paid over that amount gives me basically the upgrade form the 30K car to a 50K car spread over 9 years. ( operating cost + spread of the purchase price totals 10K a year , just like with the chrysler ) , but the car sits in a totally different  bracket when it comes to creature comforts, handling , size etc.  It fits me , and plenty other buyers very well.
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Offline Galenbo

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2015, 06:09:51 am »

3. Passing cars will exchange data in GPS systems so traffic jams are avoided.


For over 20 years now, traffic jams in my area exist on the very same locations, every weekday.
Nobody needs a GPS to show or predict them, no electronic solution is gonna avoid or solve them.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2015, 06:54:36 am »
46mpg in the city? maybe your city has no stop signs, semaphores or pedestrians :)

But a 2005 TDI Golf (1.9L) can do 32 mpg in the city and that is pretty impressive!
Depends which "MPG" unit you use, can we stick to metic units that everyone understands and don't vary from country to country? My mother in a 10 year old car gets 5l/100km in predominantly city driving so its not hard to get into the range you suggest, with effort I keep under 4.5l/100km in congested traffic in the city.

Actually, I used US MPG because that's generally what they (those from the US that continue to use outdated and archaic measurement units) understand. My figures also come from 5 years of ownership whereas his likely come from a quick google search. To counter the confusion when dealing with someone from the US I always give measurements in dual units so people know where I'm coming from.

And I did double checked your figures and noticed that you were not talking about city driving. Hey I grew up in Spain so I know Km/L, as for archaic well, whatever, it really doesn't matter for engineers because at least some of us can do some simple math and maybe dealing with more than one volume and distance measurements makes one more agile in general computations.

In any event @Someone, what 10 year old car does your Mom drive that gets 47.043 MPG in the city? that you can get up to 52.27 MPG in a congested city with effort?

Myself I'm waiting for the Elio with  84 MPG (on the Highway of course) that would be 35.71 Km/L, or 2.8L for 100 Km for the volume per distance inclined folk, but that's really a three cylinder motorcycle with 3 wheels, still can reach 100 MPH  (160.934 Km/h) but for the city (Chicago) it should be way better than any other vehicle out there (well if you don't want to be exposed to the weather). But if they ever come out to fruition for just $6,800. I'll take a couple, maybe even 4 for my two kids my wife and myself :)

But one thing is different, we do stop for pedestrians instead of accelerating like they do in Europe (well, maybe not in England) so you can get faster to the place you want to go but then spend 30 minutes finding a parking spot wasting more gas than what took you to get there in the first place.

But at the end it doesn't really matter, I live just 1.5 miles (2.414 km) from work and I do come home for lunch which it will be common in Europe, but I do have parking when I get there or back home. I might fill my very inefficient 24 MPG city 2004 VW Jetta 1.8T about once every 4 weeks at under $3 per gallon. So it really don't matter much to me, the bus is more expensive and I get back and forth in around 5 minutes per leg.


« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 06:56:42 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2015, 09:38:42 am »
i have not touched on this topic. i purely look at it from a usage perspective. if you wanna play this game : the moment Tesla has enough batteries filled by solarcity panels then this game stops and you will lose. The production of panels and batteries does produce co , but the longer they are in use the smaller this ratio becomes.
Even with CO2 friendly electricity you have to drive an EV for more than 150000km before you actually start to reduce CO2 output (based on lifecycle analyses). Electricity from solar panels still emits 30gr of CO2 per kWh (IPCC numbers) due to production. If you look at the total lifecycle of an EV the numbers don't look good. Because very few people drive their cars for many miles/kilometers before they sell it the first owner (and likely the second one as well) of an EV won't actually reduce the CO2 output but increase it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 10:35:15 am by nctnico »
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Offline gildasd

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2015, 10:24:48 am »
i have not touched on this topic. i purely look at it from a usage perspective. if you wanna play this game : the moment Tesla has enough batteries filled by solarcity panels then this game stops and you will lose. The production of panels and batteries does produce co , but the longer they are in use the smaller this ratio becomes.
Even with CO2 friendly electricity you have to drive an EV for more than 150000km before you actually start to reduce CO2 output (based on lifecycle analises). Electricity from solar panels still emits 30gr of CO2 per kWh (IPCC numbers) due to production. If you look at the total lifecycle of an EV the numbers don't look good. Because very few people drive their cars for many miles/kilometers before they sell it the first owner (and likely the second one as well) of an EV won't actually reduce the CO2 output but increase it.
Does that take into account the IC car construction too? How much more Co2 does it take to manufacture an electric? Are there any studies? How much Co2 does it cost to extract, transport and distribute gasoline  (putting it at the same level of scrutiny as solar panels)?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 10:28:48 am by gildasd »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2015, 10:35:56 am »
i have not touched on this topic. i purely look at it from a usage perspective. if you wanna play this game : the moment Tesla has enough batteries filled by solarcity panels then this game stops and you will lose. The production of panels and batteries does produce co , but the longer they are in use the smaller this ratio becomes.
Even with CO2 friendly electricity you have to drive an EV for more than 150000km before you actually start to reduce CO2 output (based on lifecycle analises). Electricity from solar panels still emits 30gr of CO2 per kWh (IPCC numbers) due to production. If you look at the total lifecycle of an EV the numbers don't look good. Because very few people drive their cars for many miles/kilometers before they sell it the first owner (and likely the second one as well) of an EV won't actually reduce the CO2 output but increase it.
Does that take into account the IC car construction too?
Yes ofcourse. Otherwise they would not have been able to make a proper comparison.
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Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2015, 03:35:42 pm »
So what will happen if and when car taxes in Denmark will be equalized? Tesla sales will drop like a stone. And with the new conservative government - there will most likely be changes in how EV's are taxed.

The new government has not said they will increase the taxation on EVs. What they have said, is that they will not by default fullfill the previous government's promise not to do so. Specifically, they want to look at the taxation issue of cars (and associated road/fuel taxes) as a whole before deciding what to do. No-one will know anything until later this year.

The reason why they won't say anything one way or the other seems to be twofold.

First, many of the people, who today buy Teslas, belong to their core supporters. Not many people buy ~ 100'000 EUR cars here, taxes or no taxes.

Secondly, I hear a little bird singing that there is a *huge* political pressure behind the scenes from the Danish power industry, asking for political initiatives to increase the number of EVs. The reason is the massively succesful windpower industry here, and all the spinoff benefits the industry brings. You read that right. The Danish power industry would like to massively increase the number of EVs, this to get a higher base load on the power grid, particularly at night.

Some numbers for your entertainment:

Danish wind power generation capacity is now at 4.9 GW (2015 numbers since february). Totalt peak power consumption for the whole country was 6.3 GW measured in january this past winter, a number expected to increase to 7.2 GW by 2035 (absolute worst case in a 10 year winter).

A whopping 42.1% of the total Danish Wh consumption for the first 6 months of 2015 was covered by our own wind energy production, and we are still building new wind power farms like mad.

Currently, at off peak hours, Denmark export any excess wind power to Germany, Sweden and - in particular - Norway. Norway use any excess Danish wind power to run some of their hydroelectric power dams in reverse, pumping water uphill, thus using the dams as potential energy storage facilities on an industrial scale.

The traditional coal powered electric power plants are being modified to run on anything flammable, biofuels in particular. They will be retained as generators of hot water for our centralized heating systems (which are extremely common here), and as electricity producers in case of no wind combined with no water behind the Norwegian hydroelectric dams.

Additionally Noway and Sweden are working like busy beavers behind the scene to independently develop a Thorium powered nuclear plant. They have a mixed fuel prototype reactor up and running already. The background: Norway literally has a mountain made of solid Thorium ore, and Sweden would like to develop an independent nuclear industry. Sweden already has and uses traditional nuclear power plants. They both see G$ at the end of the rainbow, when fossil fuels becomes more scarce.

EV power crunch?  :-DD
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2015, 07:13:27 pm »
@ElectroIrradiator: You are talking about several countries which have an extremely small population compared to the size of the country. In such countries it is easy to fulfill the energy needs with alternative sources. Last Friday the NL used 14GW peak and we don't use electricity to heat water or our homes.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2015, 07:54:07 pm »
@ElectroIrradiator: You are talking about several countries which have an extremely small population compared to the size of the country. In such countries it is easy to fulfill the energy needs with alternative sources. Last Friday the NL used 14GW peak and we don't use electricity to heat water or our homes.

I'm well aware of this. By coincidence Norway, Sweden and Denmark are among the best located countries in the world when it comes to the potential amount of green/renewable energy available per person (when you exclude direct solar power). Denmark in particular, along with some parts of the southern half of Sweden, is the best place in the world for wind power turbines due to a fortuituous combination of climate and geography. Norway on their part has a pretty good amount of hydroelectric power plant locations, plus more snow and rain than they know what to do with. Hello Bergen!

The Netherlands are quite a bit worse off here, both due to less potential windpower being available for harvesting, and due to a much higher population density. However, your industrious neighbours directly to your east are even worse off than the Netherlands, when we talk about potential amount of green energy being available per capita. So they are eyeing our excess of renewable energy, among other potential energy sources. They are very busily working on a piece of new technology, which they expect will make it economically viable to export the excess energy from the Scandinavian countries over large distances to the rest of north-western Europe, at least. I'm not sure how much of their work is in the public literature, but I believe I can tell you that they currently have a neat semi-industrial quantity tech demonstrator working as I type this. You are likely to hear more about their little hobby project in the years to come and no, we are not talking about a superconducting power grid.

That is one reason why Sweden and us here in Denmark are mad at work extending our wind turbine capacity, despite already being pushed into local negative electricity prices during some winter nights (when the Norwegian hydroelectric reservoirs are already at full capacity). In the years to come we plan on pumping our excess energy down your way, to power *your* EVs as well.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2015, 08:29:21 pm »
Apropos of nothing much, but it just turned up in my feed:

https://youtu.be/EwQdK4Y1Pkg

The comments underneath arguing with professors of physics are hilarious!
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2015, 10:40:47 pm »
In any event @Someone, what 10 year old car does your Mom drive that gets 47.043 MPG in the city? that you can get up to 52.27 MPG in a congested city with effort?

Myself I'm waiting for the Elio with  84 MPG (on the Highway of course) that would be 35.71 Km/L, or 2.8L for 100 Km for the volume per distance inclined folk, but that's really a three cylinder motorcycle with 3 wheels, still can reach 100 MPH  (160.934 Km/h) but for the city (Chicago) it should be way better than any other vehicle out there (well if you don't want to be exposed to the weather). But if they ever come out to fruition for just $6,800. I'll take a couple, maybe even 4 for my two kids my wife and myself :)
There are many VAG and PSA group vehicles from the last 15 years that can get these sorts of figures, interestingly the larger body shapes are often more efficient than the smaller boxy cars. But in all cases a light weight vehicle (under 1500kg) and a small displacement Diesel engine are the steps to getting low fuel/distance measures partly because of the higher energy density per unit of volume that Diesel has and partly because the engines were more efficient. Since the 2000's tightening emissions standards have reduced the fuel efficiency of the Diesel engines more than the matching petrol engines, so there was an anomaly of efficient cars before those tighter standards came in.

As you note the next round of fuel efficiency improvements will come from greatly reducing the mass and drag of vehicles, room for seating 2 people side by side is a little excessive in a commuter vehicle normally occupied by only a single person.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2015, 10:57:30 pm »
Not just that. Downsizing + turbo also makes petrol engines way more efficient. Current versions of the car I drive now have a 1.0 litre engine which performs much better than the 1.6 litre engine my car has AND has those newer engines have a much better mileage (10% more efficient according to EPA realistic driving tests).
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 11:06:48 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: Problems if we all had Tesla cars
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2015, 11:01:09 pm »
" a simple 2 litre Chrysler sebring with 23 miles to the gallon"

I think this is why Yanks think that EVs are so cheap to run - They are so used to cars which do literally half the MPG to those that the rest of the world drive.

I had an efficient ICE car before and after switching to electric my fuel bills are about 1/6th what they were previously. For people with solar PV it's even better because after the initial investment is paid off the fuel is essentially free.

That electric car is certainly going to cost you more to own and operate over your period of ownership than a sensibly purchased IC engined car.

But I do hope you enjoy your smug false economy.
 


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