Product designers that have no idea of reality

[richard.cs]

[ Image with piston ]

Oooh, interesting, I too had just assumed they were an overpriced pipe stub with no piston or bladder.

The next time I buy a washing machine, hot feed will be on my wish list, especially if I have set up a thermal solar panel for hot water.

When I looked at this before it seemed that most of the machines with a hot inlet only used it on 90 C and sometimes 60 C washes. i.e. they don't use a mix of hot and cold to get to lower temperatures, 30 C and 40 C washes always start from cold. This is irritating, the best solution seems to be to put a thermostatic mixing valve near the machine so you can feed 30 C or 40 C (whatever your preferred lowest wash temperature is) into the cold inlet and the machine just doesn't use its heating element except for hotter washes. Unfortunately it's not documented very well in the machine manuals.

You may still have the problem of low water volumes and long pipes*, if your hot water is not stored sufficiently close but is truly free (solar) then a circulating insulated hot loop might make sense, or even some kind of pre-purge. Whether you care about the hot water cooling in the pipes or not every litre of cold admitted to the machine from the pipes is a litre that needs to be electrically heated.

*My pretty typical UK house has about 4 m of 22 mm and 3 m of 15 mm between the hot water tank and the washing machine, about 1.8 L. Re-plumbing in narrow pipe may help.

[james_s]

Oh wow, I had no idea those things had a piston in them.  I thought they were just a hollow air pocket.  I wonder if every brand is made that way?

In any case, if there's a piston inside, mounting angle should be irrelevant.

I think it's almost guaranteed that if they are not mounted more or less vertically with the air pocket up, water will eventually leak past the seals and the air will escape. It looks like just a pair of O-rings on a plastic piston, I'd be surprised if they stayed functional for more than a year with the air pocket facing down.

[soldar]

Those with a piston are small, cheap and convenient but are not as effective because when they are installed the air inside is at atmospheric pressure and as soon as water pressure is applied the air compresses inside and the effective volume is reduced to a fraction of the original. Given the size you can imagine they are not too effective.

The larger ones have air bladders which can be precharged with air under pressure so the entire volume remains effective. The ones I have seen have a valve like a bicycle valve and can be pumped up and recharged. If course, they cannot be hidden inside walls but have to remain accessible.

[floobydust]

Washing machine fill solenoids are one assembly now. 

They were one (plastic) assembly, like the one in your photo, in the first clothes washer I bought in 1972. The valves are still working fine after all these years.

Um, you're still running a 1972 washing machine?

[soldar]

Um, you're still running a 1972 washing machine?

I believe I already mentioned it upthread. Yep. With a few hose repairs it has been working fine all these decades but finally I could not get a replacement for the front door rubber bellows which had cracked and leaked. I did buy a new computerized washer but the old one is down in the garage/basement and still works. I rotated the bellows half turn so now the crack is at the top and it hardly leaks. If I could get a replacement bellows it would be my primary washer as I have much more control with the electromechanical timer.

The one thing the new washer does much better is spin dry. It spins much faster and the clothes come out almost dry. The old washer jumps a foot up in the air when it starts spinning and then tries to jump all over the place.

Here is a pre-loaded water-hammer arrestor.
https://www.cimmspa.com/en-us/Products/Expansion-vessels-for-sanitary-water/category/with-anti-water-hammer-membrane/car

Another: https://www.nordinoxsrl.it/2512/2/1/urlbase.html

[james_s]

Um, you're still running a 1972 washing machine?

It's not *that* uncommon. My mom was using a late 70s washer and dryer until about 8 years ago. My grandmother had a mid-60s washer and dryer up until she replaced them in the early 2000's. I was actually disappointed that she did that, I could have fixed the washer easily and kept it going but she was always hesitant to ask me to take care of stuff. I had a hand me down early 80s set that I was using until I got my current front loader about 10 years ago. This stuff can be kept going almost indefinitely, at least the older machines could. The classic North American washers and dryers were made by only 2 or 3 companies and underneath the cosmetic changes most washers were one of two basic design. You can still get parts for 30-40 year old machines.

[soldar]

I am still using a Moulinex FM430 microwave oven which I guess is from about 1980. No rotating tray, no electronics. I inherited it from my mother about fifteen years ago and I already had a better one but I gave mine away to a friend and kept the older one. Still works although I think the newer ones heat faster because they are more efficient. No rotating tray means moving the load by hand every few minutes. They used to sell plastic rotating trays you could wind up but I cannot find them any more.

Where the cord enters the housing is very badly designed and it is impossible to replace the cord without major dismantling. The cord is damaged and I am expecting firworks any day but it has lasted like that for years now.

[floobydust]

When you look at the total cost of ownership, the 1972 washer is killing you on water and energy to heat the water, 30-45 gallons or twice that of a newer front loader.
But... the low repair costs and long lifetime also have a huge payback.

I'd have to check but it's like a car - most of your operating costs are for gasoline. Most of a washer's operating costs are the water/sewer/natural gas/electricity- all assuming it makes it to several years life without major repairs.

If it only lasts 5 years, or needs expensive repairs, you have been burned. Getting 10-20 years service life, the machine's cost is nothing and it ends up being the water's costs that dominate.

[soldar]

When you look at the total cost of ownership, the 1972 washer is killing you on water and energy to heat the water, 30-45 gallons or twice that of a newer front loader.

Nah. First of all the washer gets very little use. I do not do that many loads. Then, I am in a somewhat special case because I have free cold water and very low cost hot water. That is why I don't want to use the washer to heat the water.  And, in any case, I only heat the washing, not the rinsing.

Even if I paid for the water and the heating it would not amount to much.  I estimate 0.5 KWH for a load which is about 10 cents. Doing a load a week that would be like 5 EUR/year. So, even if I had to pay to heat the water and even pay for the water the cost is insignificant.

If you are buying a new washer or other appliance these are things to take into account but replacing an old washer or other appliance with the sole purpose of saving does not generally make sense.

Still, as I have said, I am already using a new washer because I could not find parts to repair the old one. But I still like using the old one for certain things because I have much greater control.

Another old thing I am using is a color TV I built from a kit in the late 1970s. At that time TVs in Spain were very heavily taxed as luxury goods but you could buy the parts without that tax and build it yourself. After 40 years the TV still works fine (with a digital tuner). The screen AR is 4:3 so most of the time the picture is letterboxed. The programming here is such garbage and interests me so little that I would not consider spending anything on a new TV.

[james_s]

The energy savings also comes in waves, it was not until maybe the last 10-15 years that high efficiency washers became common, prior to that they hadn't really changed much at all. Look inside a 1995 top load washer and you'd be hard pressed to tell it from a 1965 model. Anyway the vast majority of the energy cost is from the dyer and even a brand new dryer is virtually identical to one from 30-40+ years ago, they are either an electric element or a crude gas burner and a fan with a rotating drum. The best way to save energy on the dryer is for the washer to have a good spin cycle which most do if they're in good shape.

As far as water usage, I suppose saving water is rarely a bad idea, but the way the billing is done on mine there is virtually zero incentive. My water and sewer bill is typically around $220 every 2 months and of that maybe $20 is water consumption, the rest are fixed fees just for being connected. If I stopped using any water at all for washing clothes it might save me $2 a month, which on a $110 bill is just noise.

[wraper]

Anyway the vast majority of the energy cost is from the dyer and even a brand new dryer is virtually identical to one from 30-40+ years ago, they are either an electric element or a crude gas burner and a fan with a rotating drum. The best way to save energy on the dryer is for the washer to have a good spin cycle which most do if they're in good shape.

Besides simple condenser tumble dryers there are also dryers which use heat pump.

[james_s]

I've heard of those but never seen one in this part of the world. Go into any store that sells these things and you'll see a bunch of 4-6kW electric dryers and a few that burn natural gas.

[wraper]

I've heard of those but never seen one in this part of the world. Go into any store that sells these things and you'll see a bunch of 4-6kW electric dryers and a few that burn natural gas.

Should be American thing. Big cars, little care about efficiency.

[Dundarave]

I've heard of those but never seen one in this part of the world. Go into any store that sells these things and you'll see a bunch of 4-6kW electric dryers and a few that burn natural gas.

I think you'll find that things have changed:  I recently had to buy a new electric dryer, and almost bought a "ventless" one, i.e. a heat-pump version, by mistake as there were so many of the new type available, and I was unfamiliar with their existence. (in Vancouver, Canada).  I still like my dryers vented, and didn't want to have to deal with yet another water disposal/potential water leakage issue.

A quick look at the U.S. Home Depot site seems to have roughly 50 - 50 vented vs ventless dryers available for purchase.  They actually call them "vented" to differentiate them from the ventless ones they carry.

[Circlotron]

What is the air path for a heat pump type dryer?

1/ cool and dehumidify air (increase evaporative efficacy)
2/ reheat air
3/ dry clothes and exit

or

1/ heat air
2/ dry clothes
3/ cool and dehumidify air (recapture heat and trap moisture)

[Siwastaja]

What is the air path for a heat pump type dryer?

1/ cool and dehumidify air (increase evaporative efficacy)
2/ reheat air
3/ dry clothes and exit

or

1/ heat air
2/ dry clothes
3/ cool and dehumidify air (recapture heat and trap moisture)

AFAIK it's usually a closed loop, so your two scenarios are equal.

1) Condenser heats up the air (resistive heaters can be used in addition, especially at the beginning of the cycle to bootstrap the heat required; after a while, the inefficiency of the heat pump provides the required heat)

2) Hot, dry air soaks up moisture from the clothes

3) Hot, wet air enters the evaporator coil, cools down, water condenses,

4) Cool, dry air enters the condenser coil, back to #1.

[langwadt]

I'd have to check but it's like a car - most of your operating costs are for gasoline.

I think more like maybe a third, major portion the first few years is depreciation, and if needed cost of financing

[tooki]

I've heard of those but never seen one in this part of the world. Go into any store that sells these things and you'll see a bunch of 4-6kW electric dryers and a few that burn natural gas.

I think you'll find that things have changed:  I recently had to buy a new electric dryer, and almost bought a "ventless" one, i.e. a heat-pump version, by mistake as there were so many of the new type available, and I was unfamiliar with their existence. (in Vancouver, Canada).  I still like my dryers vented, and didn't want to have to deal with yet another water disposal/potential water leakage issue.

A quick look at the U.S. Home Depot site seems to have roughly 50 - 50 vented vs ventless dryers available for purchase.  They actually call them "vented" to differentiate them from the ventless ones they carry.

First of all, Home Depot USA currently lists 229 vented dryers and 22 ventless ones; that’s hardly 50/50! (Are you sure you didn’t misread as ~220 of each?)

But more importantly, ventless (condensation) != heat pump.

Condensation dryers have existed for years, simply to make installation more flexible. (They can go anywhere with an outlet, with no need for a vent or even a drain, since they can use a condensate container.) They’re not really significantly different from vented dryers in terms of efficiency. Heat pump dryers, on the other hand, are a huge leap in efficiency.

A friend of mine in USA recently purchased a new washer and dryer, and (aside from its stellar reputation), he chose Miele because they’re one of only 3 vendors we could find that sell heat pump dryers in USA: Miele, Whirlpool, and Asko. Between them I’d be surprised if we could scrounge up 10 different models.

Here in Europe, the newer energy efficiency standards really only allow heat pump dryers. I’ve had one for 5 years and love it. It’s far gentler on the fabrics because it doesn’t use temperatures as high as conventional dryers do. (I’d guesstimate that on regular, it is at best as hot as a traditional dryer on delicate.)

[tooki]

What is the air path for a heat pump type dryer?

1/ cool and dehumidify air (increase evaporative efficacy)
2/ reheat air
3/ dry clothes and exit

or

1/ heat air
2/ dry clothes
3/ cool and dehumidify air (recapture heat and trap moisture)

AFAIK it's usually a closed loop, so your two scenarios are equal.

1) Condenser heats up the air (resistive heaters can be used in addition, especially at the beginning of the cycle to bootstrap the heat required; after a while, the inefficiency of the heat pump provides the required heat)

2) Hot, dry air soaks up moisture from the clothes

3) Hot, wet air enters the evaporator coil, cools down, water condenses,

4) Cool, dry air enters the condenser coil, back to #1.

I’m not even really sure they use much resistive heating at all. In some programs, my heat pump dryer heats very, very slowly, and small loads usually dry before ever getting hot, often barely even getting warm. Only the cottons program actually manages to get the clothes hot. This leads me to conclude that dehumidification of the process air is the dominant evaporation aid, not heat.

EDIT: Edited to qualify how different programs do it.

[bloguetronica]

My LG machine does the same. And as it opens and closes the valve repeatedly and quite violently, the plumbing complains. The pipes vibrate withing the walls, and I'm talking about brick and cement walls. They should have put an hydropneumatic dampener just before the valve to mitigate the water hammer effect.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

[coppercone2]

if you are rotating a cracked gasket to keep something working, with a 'little' leaking being 'acceptable', you are being too cheap. Slip hazard alone is not worth it with a gasket that is already past due.

That's just too much man. Miserer level 10. Enjoy the melody new washing machines play when they are done rather then BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT... thunk... wake up in ambulance with head bandages 

I am really cheap but I still buy things like 3M brand grip tape on stairs (while keeping restorations cheap and maintaining old equipment).

[coppercone2]

My LG machine does the same. And as it opens and closes the valve repeatedly and quite violently, the plumbing complains. The pipes vibrate withing the walls, and I'm talking about brick and cement walls. They should have put an hydropneumatic dampener just before the valve to mitigate the water hammer effect.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

Since there is a hose sticking out the back, you can do it yourself.

[eugenenine]

Imagine your stove turning on when you are not home - they are under embedded MCU control. Hopefully you have nothing on the stove top...
Appliance (electronics) does burn up due to bad soldering, relays and also arcs on the PCB due to mains transients. Stoves, dishwasher, fridge etc.  Always check the consumer recalls.

Our oven didn't turn its self on but it failed to turn off after use.  We had made a pizza and I kept hearing the relay click off and on even though the over was turned off.

[eugenenine]

Old plumbing books like the one my father has would show a short piece of capped opp pipe beside every tap, be it for sinks or washers, to dampen the water stopping from closing the valves.  I found it odd my 1995 house didn't have any.  It seems maybe the engineers of the washers counted on the damper already being there.

[NiHaoMike]

Condensation dryers have existed for years, simply to make installation more flexible. (They can go anywhere with an outlet, with no need for a vent or even a drain, since they can use a condensate container.) They’re not really significantly different from vented dryers in terms of efficiency. Heat pump dryers, on the other hand, are a huge leap in efficiency.

They are a lot more efficient than vented dryers in climates that need heating but not humidification. Heat pump does even better in all climates, of course.

Not sure if there are any on the market but a vented dryer can use a simple heat exchanger to dramatically increase efficiency.