Author Topic: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering  (Read 26137 times)

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Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #175 on: September 07, 2017, 01:17:12 pm »
Dismantling western society is easy. You have not seen communism up close and cannot even imagine how it will feel for small man. In my childhood I got some of it on softest possible form (Estonia was sort of elite place in CCCP). It was ok for us since did live in countryside but in cities one essentially had no property or control over his life. You were assigned where state needs you. Now they groom whole western to feel more at home without home (constant travel), have no important belongings besides phone, carefully avoid creating family and when by accident succeed trust state. State knows best what to do with your kid.
But with all this there was some sanity in CCCP system. There was no praise of violence or abnormality, it was about engineering/building better country. Your goal was to be healthy sane worker bee and for good bees there were semi-ok apartments and even cars, boats, hunting, fishing etc basics for interesting down-to-earth life. But with this modern european policy when you should give jihadists your children to rape and home to live in it will be different form of communism without goal to build anything, only to destroy.
Interesting part will be when they start to heavily implement AI to keep stuff at bay because obviously humans cannot handle things. Suppose there will be no argument or discussion. AI said so, so it's optimal.
But before that there needs to be total chaos. Currently busy here to implement new govt worker policy where you have no specific workplace or physical document storage / belongings. Its all in the cloud and you pick some available desk from desk pool, or better sofa...

« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 02:09:07 pm by MrW0lf »
 
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Offline MT

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #176 on: September 07, 2017, 01:29:17 pm »
Here , for all you angry middle aged white engineering males! (The modified libertardian slogan). :)
During her Virginia tech years, lot of social science talk, such as global competence whatever that means. Covfefe! Enjoy!


During her Smith College time:






During Program Officer in the division of Engineering Education for the National Science Foundation.


https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2017/08/engineering-education-social-engineering-rather-actual-engineering/
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 01:46:27 pm by MT »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #177 on: September 07, 2017, 03:00:49 pm »
... If it ain't about people aggressively tearing holes in other people's work until a consensus emerges, it ain't science. ...

I think you just created a good example of why some people from non-science and engineering backgrounds might think that engineers and scientists need some civilising. Your choice of wording of "aggressively tearing holes" sounds very much like clawing your way to the top over the mangled bodies of your former colleagues. I'm sure that's not what you really mean, I'm sure you really mean rigorously examining each other's work for flaws or opportunities to improve the work (in a mutually supportive fashion, naturally).

Of course I might be wrong, you might be the sort of sociopath whose pre design review meeting ritual involves sharpening knives, but I suspect not; that kind of behaviour is reserved for board meetings.  :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #178 on: September 07, 2017, 03:13:39 pm »
... If it ain't about people aggressively tearing holes in other people's work until a consensus emerges, it ain't science. ...

I think you just created a good example of why some people from non-science and engineering backgrounds might think that engineers and scientists need some civilising. Your choice of wording of "aggressively tearing holes" sounds very much like clawing your way to the top over the mangled bodies of your former colleagues. I'm sure that's not what you really mean, I'm sure you really mean rigorously examining each other's work for flaws or opportunities to improve the work (in a mutually supportive fashion, naturally).

Of course I might be wrong, you might be the sort of sociopath whose pre design review meeting ritual involves sharpening knives, but I suspect not; that kind of behaviour is reserved for board meetings.  :)
Do you think friends playing sports are not taking an aggressive approach as they play? This has nothing to do with how they get along outside the game. Typically when I am in technical discussions where people feel unable to apply a little aggression in finding fault with something proposed, they end up with a rather pear shaped solution.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #179 on: September 07, 2017, 03:52:16 pm »
... If it ain't about people aggressively tearing holes in other people's work until a consensus emerges, it ain't science. ...

I think you just created a good example of why some people from non-science and engineering backgrounds might think that engineers and scientists need some civilising. Your choice of wording of "aggressively tearing holes" sounds very much like clawing your way to the top over the mangled bodies of your former colleagues. I'm sure that's not what you really mean, I'm sure you really mean rigorously examining each other's work for flaws or opportunities to improve the work (in a mutually supportive fashion, naturally).

Of course I might be wrong, you might be the sort of sociopath whose pre design review meeting ritual involves sharpening knives, but I suspect not; that kind of behaviour is reserved for board meetings.  :)
Do you think friends playing sports are not taking an aggressive approach as they play? This has nothing to do with how they get along outside the game. Typically when I am in technical discussions where people feel unable to apply a little aggression in finding fault with something proposed, they end up with a rather pear shaped solution.

You miss the point, almost beautifully well. I knew what you meant, I think I made that clear; I also think I made it clear I was talking about how, say, a bunch of sociologists would perceive your choice of words. Then you go on to apparently argue for aggression as necessary or desirable, when I'm sure you mean 'energetic' or 'assertive' or 'determined'. Surely you can see how that would be perceived by exactly the kind of people we are talking about here, and exactly how they can use that to justify (even if only to themselves) the need to press some form of reform on us unreconstructed, middle aged, white, male engineers.

This struggle with, for want of a better moniker, these navel gazing pseudo-leftist 'equalizers' is one of words. We recognize them because of the phrases and words they use. In this case, words matter.

Oh, and now you're back in Blighty it's 'sport' not 'sports' - we'll have none of those Americanisms here thank you very much.  :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #180 on: September 07, 2017, 04:03:21 pm »
... If it ain't about people aggressively tearing holes in other people's work until a consensus emerges, it ain't science. ...

I think you just created a good example of why some people from non-science and engineering backgrounds might think that engineers and scientists need some civilising. Your choice of wording of "aggressively tearing holes" sounds very much like clawing your way to the top over the mangled bodies of your former colleagues. I'm sure that's not what you really mean, I'm sure you really mean rigorously examining each other's work for flaws or opportunities to improve the work (in a mutually supportive fashion, naturally).

Of course I might be wrong, you might be the sort of sociopath whose pre design review meeting ritual involves sharpening knives, but I suspect not; that kind of behaviour is reserved for board meetings.  :)
Do you think friends playing sports are not taking an aggressive approach as they play? This has nothing to do with how they get along outside the game. Typically when I am in technical discussions where people feel unable to apply a little aggression in finding fault with something proposed, they end up with a rather pear shaped solution.

You miss the point, almost beautifully well. I knew what you meant, I think I made that clear; I also think I made it clear I was talking about how, say, a bunch of sociologists would perceive your choice of words. Then you go on to apparently argue for aggression as necessary or desirable, when I'm sure you mean 'energetic' or 'assertive' or 'determined'. Surely you can see how that would be perceived by exactly the kind of people we are talking about here, and exactly how they can use that to justify (even if only to themselves) the need to press some form of reform on us unreconstructed, middle aged, white, male engineers.

This struggle with, for want of a better moniker, these navel gazing pseudo-leftist 'equalizers' is one of words. We recognize them because of the phrases and words they use. In this case, words matter.

Oh, and now you're back in Blighty it's 'sport' not 'sports' - we'll have none of those Americanisms here thank you very much.  :)
I'm not missing anything. I just object to the corruption of language. I do indeed mean 'energetic' or 'assertive' or 'determined' or "aggressive".
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #181 on: September 07, 2017, 04:10:49 pm »
I just object to the corruption of language.

This, from an Briton who used 'sports' in stead of 'sport' not ten minutes ago!  :)

I do indeed mean 'energetic' or 'assertive' or 'determined' or "aggressive".

Personally, I wouldn't count aggression as a characteristic I'd like to encounter in dealing with a colleague.
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Offline coppice

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #182 on: September 07, 2017, 04:44:43 pm »
I do indeed mean 'energetic' or 'assertive' or 'determined' or "aggressive".

Personally, I wouldn't count aggression as a characteristic I'd like to encounter in dealing with a colleague.
What about energetic? Are your hyperactive colleagues more palatable than the aggressive ones?  :)
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #183 on: September 07, 2017, 05:09:08 pm »
Come on, guys!
Can't you see what is the outcome of non-engineers (a bunch of corporate clowns, in the following case) messing with engineering equipment?
MDO4000 Review
This is the price you will have to pay as a leading T&M company when you let marketing people decide what engineers really need.

Just imagine, now, what will happen when these monkeys instead of being corporate agents (ruthless opportunists being driven by profit only, no matter what) become fanatical globalisation agents (intolerant individuals without principles or remorse) promoting Marxism, one of the most blood-stained doctrine known to mankind, along with the Abrahamic Delusions that follow in that unfortunate ranking...

Regarding Idiocracy (2006), that fine follow up of the dystopian novel called The Marching Morons (1951) by C. M. Kornbluth, I have one question:
Are we there yet?


-George
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #184 on: September 07, 2017, 05:42:03 pm »
What about energetic? Are your hyperactive colleagues more palatable than the aggressive ones?  :)

Ermmm, I'll get back to you on that...
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #185 on: September 07, 2017, 05:43:35 pm »
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #186 on: September 07, 2017, 06:22:12 pm »
BTW highly recommended conceptual movie targeted perhaps more at directing class:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071615/
The Holy Mountain (1973)

...and recent from same dude but for more simple audience:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4451458/
Poesía sin fin (2016)

If still feeling all too warm and fuzzy good bed-time read:
"Ecoscience" co-authored by John P. Holdren
http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/
 

Offline Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #187 on: September 07, 2017, 06:52:28 pm »
What about Sante Sangre? El topo? And Fando Y Lis?

Btw - there is a very nice documentary about Alejandro Jodorowsyi called Constellation Jodorowsky.

NB - Poesia Sin Fin was a very nice Kickstarter. I was happy to be on that one.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #188 on: September 07, 2017, 07:01:26 pm »
What about Sante Sangre? El topo? And Fando Y Lis?

Did not watch these so cannot recommend. Since you seem to know about this more closely. So is he educated watcher or rather insider? :P
 

Offline Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #189 on: September 07, 2017, 07:11:33 pm »
Educated watcher. Of people. Almost psychology.

The documentary shows nicely how (I won't spoil it for you - but the director of the documentary becomes a part of this process - piercing what Slavos Zizek calls the magical plane).  Very cool.
 

Offline Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #190 on: September 07, 2017, 07:41:49 pm »
Talking of films and undergrad education, Think soft subjects have it easier? I have an anecdote to share.

I was in a jacuzzi in Waikiki beach for work, when I was joined by undergrad gals and guys studying film making. (I am an engineer but do like movies).

Anyway, we end up discussing David Lynch. Two of the guys favorite film: Lost Highway.

I was like "nice joke".
"No - we really like it. The camera and direction are very tight. "

So I was perplexed: " you know what it is about?"
"Well a gangster".

So since someone has to break the psychological reality of the film to them: "nope - male impotence and performance anxiety. The violence (in this case murder) that comes from impotence; everything that happens after she taps her impotent husband on the back - is his dream of being a better man which he fails yet again; hence the transition shots".

As Zizek like to say "violence is a form or impotence".

Quiet. Film students leave quietly.

This thread is about how they teach engineering.
Ever wonder what and how they teach in film school?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 07:44:28 pm by Assafl »
 

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Offline coppice

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Online EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #193 on: September 07, 2017, 11:43:06 pm »
She's written a book, guess what the title is  ::)

https://www.amazon.com/Engineering-Synthesis-Lectures-Engineers-Technology/dp/1598296264/ref=sr_1_6



Quote
The profession of engineering in the United States has historically served the status quo, feeding an ever-expanding materialistic and militaristic culture, remaining relatively unresponsive to public concerns, and without significant pressure for change from within. This book calls upon engineers to cultivate a passion for social justice and peace and to develop the skill and knowledge set needed to take practical action for change within the profession. Because many engineers do not receive education and training that support the kinds of critical thinking, reflective decision-making, and effective action necessary to achieve social change, engineers concerned with social justice can feel powerless and isolated as they remain complicit. Utilizing techniques from radical pedagogies of liberation and other movements for social justice, this book presents a roadmap for engineers to become empowered and engage one another in a process of learning and action for social justice and peace.
Table of contents:
What Do we Mean by Social Justice? /
Mindsets in Engineering /
Engineering and Social Injustice /
Toward a More Socially Just Engineering /
Turning Knowledge into Action: Strategies for Change /
Parting Lessons for the Continuing Struggle
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 11:45:56 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #194 on: September 08, 2017, 12:02:15 am »
Two philosophical questions:
  • Can God make a rock so heavy that God himself cannot lift it?
  • Is there a thread so political that Dave himself cannot stop it from being locked?  :-DD
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #195 on: September 08, 2017, 12:13:43 am »
The difference now is the state and the corporations that own it now really does not want to "need" anybody who it does not control, or might be seen as owing some obligation to.

Thats were AI comes in.

Our one hope would be open algorithms and FOSS so attempts are being made to demonize all the things that could stop it.

Also, the people here who are deluded into thinking socialism is taking over are profoundly ignorant, as its capitalism thats doing it. (but pretending its the opposite)

So, were seeing an attack on civilization by Social Injustice Warriors.

Yes, everything they do is backwards. That's a characteristic of any extrinsic fraud.

Under corporate fascism there is no requirement to maintain a system that works for anybody. Right and wrong is replaced by the marketplace. Money is everything.

Quote from: MrW0lf on Today at 07:17:12
Dismantling western society is easy. You have not seen communism up close and cannot even imagine how it will feel for small man. In my childhood I got some of it on softest possible form (Estonia was sort of elite place in CCCP). It was ok for us since did live in countryside but in cities one essentially had no property or control over his life.

You were assigned where state needs you.


Now they groom whole western to feel more at home without home (constant travel), have no important belongings besides phone, carefully avoid creating family and when by accident succeed trust state. State knows best what to do with your kid.

But with all this there was
some sanity in CCCP system. There was no praise of violence or abnormality, it was about engineering/building better country. Your goal was to be healthy sane worker bee and for good bees there were semi-ok apartments and even cars, boats, hunting, fishing etc basics for interesting down-to-earth life. But with this modern european policy when you should give jihadists your children to rape and home to live in it will be different form of communism without goal to build anything, only to destroy.

Interesting part will be when they start to heavily implement AI to keep stuff at bay because obviously humans cannot handle things. Suppose there will be no argument or discussion.

AI said so, so it's optimal.
But before that there needs to be total chaos. Currently busy here to implement new govt worker policy where you have no specific workplace or physical document storage / belongings. Its all in the cloud and you pick some available desk from desk pool, or better sofa...


Under "liberalisation" there will be huge winners and huge losers. Basically global value chains focuses on efficiency. So there will be a few huge companies (in terms of resources) but they may not employ many people.

The rest will be on their own - This is why I tell people to try to make as much money as they can now and remember that savings and investments may crash as everybody tries to extract value from what they have at the same time as we hit the exponential part of the curve.

Indeed, you are right in that the neoliberals acknowledge that tey are trying to break down society on a global scale, but they misrepresent their reasons for doing so. Its not out of altruism, its out of a desire to capture all the gifts given the planet by technology for themselves.  This is because classical economics predicts a race to the bottom on wages and benefits and really the entire social contract as billions of jobs dry up. Obviously the planet will end up with a welfare state of some kind but the questions of how that would be implemented and who would come out on top are very much on the minds of those who are on top now. They want to lock themselves into power with trade agreements, which are forcing a dismantlement of safety nets and safety regulations, globally.
The most extreme vision of globalization - pushed by my own country, is basically an extension of colonialism - without the obligation to take care of anybody..

Some rich governments and their allies in the developing world, the most corrupt governments, which are very highly stratified - Their rich want to shed all of their responsibilities to anybody for anything before the world realizes what these deals do.

I see them as attempts to lock in failing business models and permanently (they hope) stifle creativity and innovation.

Money isnt everything, but these deals basically could be encapsulated as saying exactly that, and giving it legal teeth.

For example, in the UK the Tories there push a new sort of reverse precautionary principle for corporations.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #196 on: September 08, 2017, 07:18:25 am »
Under corporate fascism there is no requirement to maintain a system that works for anybody. Right and wrong is replaced by the marketplace. Money is everything.

For architects of developing mess money is rather tool to control "peasants" incl those quite high up in biz world. Control is everything. For example IoT is damn good tool for that. Especially good for AIs input :P
CCCP was different in that way - sniffing on someone was an effort.

Edit: Probably end times to be something but extremely approving of social justice movement from here [Estonia]:
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/09/06/report-eu-presidency-calls-china-style-internet-censorship/
"A Council of the European Union document leaked by Statewatch on 30 August reveals that during the summer months, Estonia (current EU Presidency) has been pushing the other Member States to strengthen indiscriminate internet surveillance, and to follow in the footsteps of China regarding online censorship"

And youre right that system does not need to work for everybody, only step further - system does not need everybody at all. Thats what Ecoscience book was about.

But back to fun stuff:
Educated watcher. Of people. Almost psychology.

I suspect he have "watched" more than psychology. That sex scene with midget-on-period alone was worth it :clap:



« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 08:03:49 am by MrW0lf »
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #197 on: September 08, 2017, 11:27:34 am »
Really not sure how we got to even discuss mental demands of the "social justice warriors" for STEM education reforms. Basically "social sciences" take care of our primary and secondary education, and that is where the fuck up happens (poor quality of education in some "minority dominant" schools and poor interest of girls in going into STEM), so why propagate the fuck up to the universities thinking it will solve the issue. 
 
I really do have hard time understanding them. I'm still scratching my head over the toilet issues. You go to the toilet to piss or take a shit, there is nothing sexual about it. I'm really close to advocating unisex toilets, only reason I'm not doing it is because ladies toilets are always overcrowded.



You have not seen communism up close and cannot even imagine how it will feel for small man.
Neither have you nor have I. Communism is more of a philosophy than something that can be done in real life. It is in it's core absolutely altruistic, but not plausible.
What you're talking is dictatorship and absolute utilitarianism.
If you doubt this tell me one country that called itself communist? - answer: none, communism negates a country, they were called socialist. I'm not saying I'm pro communism (I think it is impossible), I'm just trying to show the difference.
Many people in countries of ex Yugoslavia remember fondly of the socialist era, as we were taking loans all over the world (both USA and SSSR) and living nicely off of them, once the money dried the wars started.     
 
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Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #198 on: September 08, 2017, 01:05:27 pm »
[...]
You have not seen communism up close and cannot even imagine how it will feel for small man.
Neither have you nor have I.
[...]

Well, Communism is a THEORETICAL (and practically inapplicable, due to human nature) economic theory (please search for and read the book: "Behind Communism (Frank L Britton)" --it exists online as a .PDF file), while Socialism is merely a secular religion, where the State becomes a god; it has its good and evil, its creation myths, its eventual heaven where the State withers away, its ruling class of ethical liars, and so on. Suddenly, instead of heaven existing in the afterlife, it was promised in this life, as soon as government programs succeeded (The afterlife is far more likely...). The new Socialist clergy promised an end to poverty, injustice, illiteracy, shortness, baldness – any word they could get their grubby hands on --and of course anyone who disagreed with these fantasies was immediately portrayed as pro-poverty/injustice/illiteracy/etc. Of course, just as the moral guilt of religion can never create virtue, government programs can never create paradise, and so a perpetual motion machine of social control was started, where the supposed 'solutions' just created more of the same problems.

Now, as Communism is the opposite of Capitalism, Socialism is the opposite of Fascism. Where Socialism would ideally have a physically impossible world of equal people (after the elimination of the educated individuals, the only ones able to restore the traditionary character and values of any targeted and decimated nations after the war) via 'class struggle' [meaning that some people will have to be murdered in order for some other people to become prosperous...]), Fascism embraces the class structure acknowledging the haves and have nots, perpetuating the conditions for class separation. Mussolini, who created the political Fascism, famously said 'Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.' It is obvious, though, to the inquiring mind that there is no room for the most creative Middle Class in either system... So, the answer for a prosperous and balanced society must probably be lying somewhere in between, as our fifth-century Athenian ancestors have successfully demonstrated.

But, as both the Political Left and the Political Right ideologies were created the same exactly instant (in 1807) by the same people, please watch the similarities of the Nazi and Soviet regimes, while contemplating the similarities between Capitalism and Communism:...

The Soviet Story (Edvins Snore, 2008):



-George
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 01:12:05 pm by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #199 on: September 08, 2017, 01:21:20 pm »
Is STEAM (adding Art to STEM) still a thing? Or has that educationalist fad been buried now?
 


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