Author Topic: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering  (Read 55130 times)

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Online tautech

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #250 on: September 14, 2017, 03:03:50 am »
Nailed it. ^^^  :-+
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Offline Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #251 on: September 14, 2017, 08:12:41 am »
Nailed it. ^^^  :-+

What nailed it? The world isn't about money. Never was. It was about resources and dividing up resources. Money is just a convenient way to enumerate resources. Resources, to their owner, provide a sense of security and, over time, power. That drives everyone. The alt left and right, the center, the workers, the bosses, everyone. Even the altruists.

The alt universe media (like Radio  Pacifica and now the alt right phenomena) have always been around. They are not new. Neither is corporation playing with the truth to get an advantage (and doing things like poisoning us with lead). What is new - and the only thing that is new - is the direct access to a never ending multiplicity of narratives.

Try experiments with your browser. Write vaccination and illnesses and death and Auspergers and autism. Suddenly Google and the rest of the popup world (and facebook) will start giving you access to the sinister world of people devoid of epidemiologists and immunologists - but they will have a doctor - maybe physics, maybe a math teacher, maybe a dentist - who'll say vaccinations are no longer important.

By typing a few words into Google and Facebook - the view of reality changed (Google's algorithms will serve as Blinkers do to horses - see the straight and narrow - what you want to see - nothing else). You'll actually have to spend time on the Sanofi Pasteur and Novartis sites and WebMD to get back to the "real" world (and how "real" is that "real" world - just a narrative favored by epidemiologists and immunologists).

Want a progressive agenda (possible close to what - I assume - cdev is looking at) - no problem. Be careful of Radio Pacifica and its ilk - and be careful of activism. Somewhere between CNN and Radio Pacifica. (albeit activists must be careful as they are routinely wooed by left and right anarchists). But be careful of the libertarians - they seem to be on the other side.

In the modern world you pick your reality. I don't know if it is scary or not - but some of my favorite SF writers (Philip K. Dick and Stanislaw Lem) wrote about confusing planes of reality and at least for them - the outcome was never good.

BTW - Think engineers are immune? Just read the thread where a noob asks about buying test equipment like a DMM. Two realities: 1. Buy cheap - and if you like it upgrade; 2. Buy the most expensive Cat III rated you can afford - since you are a NOOB you are likely to stuff the probes where no NOOB probe should go... and the Cat III will therefore save your life.

Two contradicting realities - both make logical sense and both can be argued ad-nauseum. In a post modern world both automatically have validity (which is where the problems start). The NOOB is asked to make a decision on something he can't. That is why he asked for our help in the first place! Acting like post-modern beacons of idealism - we let the Noobs down.

BTW - I don't believe both are valid. On a historical test - one would always buy a cheap Micronta - and if one were to find he likes the hobby - end up with a Fluke or an Amprobe or a Metrawatt. Or a VTVM. Not that Cat III is bad to have - but it was never a necessity - we are all here and alive.

However it is neglecting the simple realities that safety is a statistics game. An electrician wiring up distribution boards, is far more likely to make a mistake ONCE than a person who only ever works on mains rarely, and if that, at home. As for a NOOB using a Cat III in a distribution panel??? Somehow the ratings on the DMM would be the least of my worries: "See that bright copper bar? Please don't touch it.".

And consider the alternative. Supposing one cannot afford a Fluke. My landlord in Los Angeles would check the live wire by touching it (I literally cringed and never invited him to fix electricity again). Compared to touching a phase - the risk of an old Micronta multimeter is orders of magnitude better. So what if Gossen is even better....

But the alternate reality where everyone needs a Cat III DMM certainly looks good. I am sure it makes Danaher happy...

 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 08:18:25 am by Assafl »
 

Online tautech

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #252 on: September 14, 2017, 09:23:25 am »
Having a few years under my belt and gone most of way through the education system and watched my kids go through it but I've had a stint in school governance and IMHO we have a lot to question of the manner in which our next generations are being molded for adulthood.....poorly !! Social agendas are laid before adulthood, before they have the ability to think for themselves.
Sure many just listen, watch or read most of the crap in the media today.....the wife calls them 'non-thinkers' and we see a good many here that couldn't be called such.
Only the very lucky have the luxury to think the world isn't about money......it can't buy you everything but most things it can.

Buying equipment.......well circumstances dictate only one thing....budget. Want to spend bugger all on some POS that won't last, then do so. Spend a bit more and know it should last....been there done that. When experience follows, safety and capabilities required dictate future choices. I'll stick with my USD70 Chinese Fluke 15B thanks, even for dist panel work around home and down the 3 phase shed.

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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #253 on: September 14, 2017, 01:44:37 pm »
BTW - Think engineers are immune? Just read the thread where a noob asks about buying test equipment like a DMM. Two realities: 1. Buy cheap - and if you like it upgrade; 2. Buy the most expensive Cat III rated you can afford - since you are a NOOB you are likely to stuff the probes where no NOOB probe should go... and the Cat III will therefore save your life.

You misrepresent that discussion because there was at least one other argument put forward: buy a cheap secondhand Fluke, which seems to satisfy all the arguments.

I mention it for two reasons:
  • Firstly it's further evidence, as if that's needed, of my legendary wisdom and judgement, because it was I who proposed that solution.  :)
  • It demonstrates that even engineers can overlook inconvenient facts, and be selective in reporting the facts, in supporting their position in a political argument/discussion. Strangely this both supports your argument and simultaneously undermines your making of it. I find that perversely satisfying.
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Offline Galenbo

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #254 on: September 15, 2017, 07:22:01 am »

All diodes matter.

Ban diodes, they are racist and discriminating, letting some electrons through, and others not.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #255 on: September 15, 2017, 07:50:47 am »
Ban diodes, they are racist and discriminating, letting some electrons through, and others not.

:-DD :-DD :-DD

That's the spirit!  ;)


-George
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 07:52:35 am by A Hellene »
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Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #256 on: September 15, 2017, 08:04:09 am »
Ban, also, this Battery Desulfator: It is chauvinist, speaking Hellenic, the national language of its designer! :P


-George
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline Ducttape

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #257 on: September 15, 2017, 05:21:17 pm »
There is a concept in law called "Adverse posession" - it basically says that you can steal anything from anybody by taking it notoriously
I remember reading (quite some time ago) that a way to prevent that, without an immediate fight, is to give a potential 'adverse possessor' specific, but clearly temporary, permission to possess whatever is at stake. To be rescinded at whatever point in the future you change your mind. That prevents them from having the ability to possess adversely. I'm not a lawyer though.
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #258 on: September 15, 2017, 06:16:46 pm »
I'd even propose that funding problems are a substantially greater risk to engineering department relevancy and quality than any social warrior.

Yes, but when the SJWs get into positions of power that let them hold the purse strings, they can then defund those evil, patriarchal engineering programs because they're not 'diverse' enough, any legitimate reasons for that lack of diversity (such as a lack of interest on the part of those they want more of in the programs) be damned.

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Offline John B

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #259 on: September 15, 2017, 08:40:30 pm »

All diodes matter.

Ban diodes, they are racist and discriminating, letting some electrons through, and others not.

Because diodes are privileged, you can't be discriminatory towards them. In fact, you can only be.....

....reversed biased.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #260 on: September 15, 2017, 08:51:53 pm »
Because diodes are privileged, you can't be discriminatory towards them. In fact, you can only be.....

....reversed biased.

The cloakroom's that way ...
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Offline cdev

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #261 on: September 15, 2017, 09:17:16 pm »
If those people who want to empower engineers don't succeed at that, as jobs dry up, the meritocracy of the talented that scientifically minded people idealize (for good reasons) and which characterizes high functioning organizations) will happen less and less - it will be replaced by something quite unpleasant.

Who is willing to pay a bribe under the table to get this or that assignment? Whose family has the best connections, so the jobs can be steered to them? Every exercise of discretion will become more likely to be poisoned by these external considerations, (literally.. consideration=bribe)

That will make all professions tedious and unpleasant for most people. Also it will make people sick. A growing body of science, on neuroimmunology and allostasis show these stressful situations cause illness at a level that makes them as dangerous as almost any other danger that scientists track statistically.

Certain kinds of threats (from things high on Maslow's hierarchy of needs) over short periods of time sharpen the senses but over long periods of time they kill brain cells and make people old before their time. The science is compelling, they make people sick.


-----

So what has changed in the world and society that people feel so strongly that people need re-empowering? (this is a very unscientific gut feeling analysis, but - you can take it as such and just weigh it, I may be right and I may be wrong- its a quite unpolished and somewhat unscientific and hypothetical guess at what might be happening.

There has been a fundamental shift in the law, driven by new theories in economics (that basically are another area I am unqualified to speak about)

, but my gut feeling is there is now a sort of cult of efficiency based around the concept of transaction costs  which is being used to justify the quit shifting away from promises which are costly to keep, when other opportunities might present themselves.

This shift has resulted in a push to change all the rules all around the world, and thats so far been largely successful. But peoples awareness of this shift is seen through the lens of class and most people in the US have only the vaguest idea of what might have changed. However, they do know something has changed.

 the powerful, have managed to create new rules that give them their way, in a plethora of situations which in my opinion is a very ugly thing. For example, these changes basically end democracy as we all define it.

Which is why its been done. Whats replaced it is a sort of might makes right, based on a narrow definition of short term economic output, in some cases, and long term economic output in others, with the powerful always getting the benefit of the laws falling tehir way, so its not fair nor is it a coincidence.. Its sort of alike heads I win, tails you lose.

and nothing else.

However, this breaks the social contract at many levels. However, its kept quiet because then the benefits of an incomplete contract accrue to the powerful for as long as possible. One side is getting the benefit of the others ignorance and they - therefore perform their side of a bargain they cant win based on assumptions which are unlikely to ever come true

For one thing, they would have to bring the potential conflict out into the open, something poor people never do, because they cant afford to.  The system is set up to punish people for asserting they even have these rights. Its very different than the situation as little as a few decades ago.

This is especially tryue, even ow for nonwhite people and women.
We desperately need higher rates of participation in society in technical professions. More viewpoints need to be heard and we need to recognize their value. There are numerous women whose contributions to science and engineering are largely unknown. Its also true they often feel marginalized. The highest functioning organizations are generally more inclusive ones.

My gut feeling has always been that women are the missing half of technology it needs to successfully navigate a complex future. Yes, they see things differently.  Women often have common sense men lack on an issue.  And they often have technical abilities that go under-recognized.

Also- there is the question of fitness to lead.


If a technical education is viewed as the gateway to managerial or leadership positions, (and in many contexts they are) people need balance.

There are all sorts of fundamental questions that a technical education  should include at least some of as it makes for a more balanced and thoughtful individual.

Maybe some dont see it but there is an extremely aggressive push now  to cheapen and turn all the technical professions into low valued cogs in a machine, low paid precarious jobs that require a difficult, often expensive education. This is a passive aggressive way of discouraging people from pursuing them so they can be given to others, for low pay.

If engineers and other technical professionals are stripped of their humanities education, they will be seen by society as high tech plumbers, which is what some want.

The push to turn technical work into precarious work will then be far more likely to be successful.
Society will be poorer and less likely to thrive because logically minded people (as opposed to game insiders) may eventually be shut out of leadership roles in society.

-----

Science is important..

For example, Assafi, you mentioned the phobia some people have for "immunizations" (and the phobia people have for discussing theissue in a scientific manner, which is not as simple as some would have us think.

The fears were at one point in time,somewhat based in an unfortunate use of a substance that had a small but nonzero chance of causing birth defects if a mother who was pregnant was exposed to it during pregnancy and she had low glutathione status. Its logical to extrapolate that from what we know about how pro oxidant substances cause changes in gene expression. The controversy over vaccines was based in fact to some extent, but, as far as I know, thimerosal is no longer used. Now peoples main sources of mercury exposure are environmental sources - some of which are far more toxic because one form of mercury, methylmercury is extremely toxic. all emerged from the use of thimerosal, a preservative made with mercury that is no longer used. However, there is some important science that underlies the whole issue and its the science of toxicology which is choosing to ignore an important fact that engineers should be able to grasp. That a substance called glutathione - one of the most important ways our bodies cope with toxic substances, is a finite resource in the body that can be used up by increased exposure to a plethora of toxic substances, making them all additive. Their effects on fetuses during a particular period of cell differentiation are mediated by reactive oxygen species. Taking more of the precursor of glutathione, cysteine, an amino acid, blocks the toxicity.

Some parts of society refuse to integrate this knowledge because they dont want to deal with the fact that a good percentage of toxic substances have additive effects and should be regulated in a manner that recognizes that - recognized as such, so it attempts to hide the facts which will inform that debate by attempting to turn issues that might lead to an informed, scientific discussion of glutathione trigger attacks as nonscientific. However, the underlying fact that ones glutathione status often determines the effect on the body a toxic substance has, is long proven science.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 11:51:07 pm by cdev »
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Offline R005T3r

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #262 on: September 16, 2017, 08:12:52 am »
Sience is the ONLY truth and is valid everywhere in the universe... Even if we have baised textbook, those who are willing to see the truth behind the bais shall be successful and archive great potential, those who won't will fail to do so.Engegneering is not an opinion... And mixing science with politics, society or other things is just pointless...

About an open education: it might be a good thing, since anyone could be a new genius and don't even know it yet..
 

Offline Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #263 on: September 16, 2017, 08:47:50 am »
Science is important..

For example, Assafi, you mentioned the phobia some people have for "immunizations" (and the phobia people have for discussing theissue in a scientific manner, which is not as simple as some would have us think.

The fears were at one point in time,somewhat based in an unfortunate use of a substance that had a small but nonzero chance of causing birth defects if a mother who was pregnant was exposed to it during pregnancy and she had low glutathione status. Its logical to extrapolate that from what we know about how pro oxidant substances cause changes in gene expression. The controversy over vaccines was based in fact to some extent, but, as far as I know, thimerosal is no longer used. Now peoples main sources of mercury exposure are environmental sources - some of which are far more toxic because one form of mercury, methylmercury is extremely toxic. all emerged from the use of thimerosal, a preservative made with mercury that is no longer used. However, there is some important science that underlies the whole issue and its the science of toxicology which is choosing to ignore an important fact that engineers should be able to grasp. That a substance called glutathione - one of the most important ways our bodies cope with toxic substances, is a finite resource in the body that can be used up by increased exposure to a plethora of toxic substances, making them all additive. Their effects on fetuses during a particular period of cell differentiation are mediated by reactive oxygen species. Taking more of the precursor of glutathione, cysteine, an amino acid, blocks the toxicity.

Some parts of society refuse to integrate this knowledge because they dont want to deal with the fact that a good percentage of toxic substances have additive effects and should be regulated in a manner that recognizes that - recognized as such, so it attempts to hide the facts which will inform that debate by attempting to turn issues that might lead to an informed, scientific discussion of glutathione trigger attacks as nonscientific. However, the underlying fact that ones glutathione status often determines the effect on the body a toxic substance has, is long proven science.

No-one (especially me) argued that continually checking the best available knowhow isn't critical. That is how we discovered that the sage advise that sugar is good - isn't really so. Or that AC theory beats DC theory for communications (poor Oliver Heaviside).

But people live longer. Unfortunately (or fortunately) - they still die. And they are afraid to. And because keeping them alive is complex (example is giving the worst of poisons - called chemotherapy - to cancer patients) - and complexity is a bear to the intellect - the SJW decide to compromise and go to "something" simpler - like organic. Or faith healers (I mean - it worked in the past when people died in their 50s-60s - didn't it?), or avoiding vaccinations or treating cancer.

So from a scientific perspective all SJW do is fight for the right to be wrong. Their choice. It may work well in philosophy school. But it doesn't work in a scientific context or a university engineering or science major.

(note - edited to stay OT based on Dave's comment below - at least I hope this is now OT...).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 09:05:14 am by Assafl »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #264 on: September 16, 2017, 08:53:43 am »
If we can't stick to the topic here then the thread will be locked.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #265 on: September 16, 2017, 10:53:50 am »
Unfortunately, those fanatical followers of any any kind of society degradation doctrines are not only hurting Science, since they are hurting Education in parallel. And a widespread, but unofficial also, form of mass education is the recreational films industry, where the vast majority of our global society of uneducated individuals is 'learning' the officially distorted form of history from.

Explaining myself, a good movie may appear every once in a while. In my opinion, this could be Christopher Nolan's historically accurate anti-war drama 'Dunkirk (2017)', being 'dressed' by the outstanding music of Hans Zimmer, whose imposing tempo peaks the intensity and the anxiety of the viewer. According to USA Today, Brian Truitt review, 'It’s less a movie and more a close encounter of the combative kind: You feel every bolt rattle in the cockpit of a dogfighting Spitfire, every stressful moment with the choice of drowning or surfacing in an oil fire, and every thought of certain doom for the infantrymen trapped on a beach when a bomb comes whizzing out of the sky.' In my opinion, this is a wonderful movie worth watching on the screen and not on a DVD.

But the sick media world, horrendously saw a film in which there are no female heroines and no black protagonists. And they shuddered... Some others were annoyed because they did not hear the word 'Nazi' or even 'German', but only the word 'enemy', while others broke their garments because the 'Nazi barbarism' was not highlighted in the film; let that there was not even a mention of the mandatory 'Holocaust (TM)'...

For example:
- Too Many White Men At Dunkirk,
- Review of war epic ‘Dunkirk’: Film shows just ‘a couple of women and no lead actors of color’,
- Dunkirk: the film that has rightwing writers itching for a culture war,
- Twitter unhappy about ‘Dunkirk’ being historically ... accurate?, et cetera...


-George
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #266 on: September 16, 2017, 12:04:18 pm »
Someone doesn't listen and we get Godwin's law. Thread locked.
 
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