Author Topic: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:  (Read 3728 times)

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Offline BrianHGTopic starter

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Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« on: March 17, 2022, 07:47:42 pm »
DeepMind's New AI: As Smart As An Engineer...


 
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Offline ace1903

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2022, 08:00:00 pm »
I live for the day when I will receive problem description in clear English.
Don't understand why it needs to generate code. Wouldn't direct executable be more practical?
 
 

Offline BrianHGTopic starter

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2022, 08:24:56 pm »
I live for the day when I will receive problem description in clear English.
+1...
Quote
Don't understand why it needs to generate code. Wouldn't direct executable be more practical?
No.  Because that machine code wont work in Linux, or on a Mac, or on my Amiga.
Also, what if you as a human observer wants to make your own additions or changes or corrections?
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2022, 09:46:10 pm »
How is that "AI is programming"?

It simply translated already made programed solution by a human from Pseudocode to a specific language syntax.

It is impressive demonstration of natural language processing but AI programmed nothing.

Requirement analysis was already done, detailed algorithm and programming steps devised and described in formal language.
Text on the left IS already whole program written out in formal pseudo language.
Text on the left is what is written by the engineer.

There exists for 30-40 years software that will convert Pascal code to C. This is that, just by using AI.
Impressive in it's own right (natural language processing part) but not "programing"

Programmers job is more like:

CLIENT:  "we have this thing that we do, that nobody here really understands and we would like you to make a computer program for it to do ...stuff??.....No, we cannot explain in detail what it should do, that is why we hired you... If we knew we wouldn't need you, would we?  We expect it next week."...
PROGRAMMER:  :palm:

With that many details ....  >:D



"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline BrianHGTopic starter

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2022, 10:32:06 pm »
How is that "AI is programming"?

It simply translated already made programed solution by a human from Pseudocode to a specific language syntax.

It is impressive demonstration of natural language processing but AI programmed nothing.

Requirement analysis was already done, detailed algorithm and programming steps devised and described in formal language.
Text on the left IS already whole program written out in formal pseudo language.
Text on the left is what is written by the engineer.

There exists for 30-40 years software that will convert Pascal code to C. This is that, just by using AI.
Impressive in it's own right (natural language processing part) but not "programing"

Programmers job is more like:
Google AI already has a website designer where you describe within a few sentences what you want and it will design the website code in real time.  Including graphics and apps.
AI exists where you begin a story and they will invent the continuation.
It is that we are moving forward, not that we have reached some unsurpassable plateau.
Mock what you see today and you will be left in the dust just like those who mocked the Atari 2600 and the video game crash back in the 80s as that being the end all ultimate video game experiences.

Quote
CLIENT:  "we have this thing that we do, that nobody here really understands and we would like you to make a computer program for it to do ...stuff??.....No, we cannot explain in detail what it should do, that is why we hired you... If we knew we wouldn't need you, would we?  We expect it next week."...
PROGRAMMER:  :palm:

With that many details ....  >:D

I feel your pain...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 10:35:41 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2022, 12:08:12 am »
How is that "AI is programming"?

It simply translated already made programed solution by a human from Pseudocode to a specific language syntax.

It is impressive demonstration of natural language processing but AI programmed nothing.

Requirement analysis was already done, detailed algorithm and programming steps devised and described in formal language.
Text on the left IS already whole program written out in formal pseudo language.
Text on the left is what is written by the engineer.

There exists for 30-40 years software that will convert Pascal code to C. This is that, just by using AI.
Impressive in it's own right (natural language processing part) but not "programing"

Programmers job is more like:
Google AI already has a website designer where you describe within a few sentences what you want and it will design the website code in real time.  Including graphics and apps.
AI exists where you begin a story and they will invent the continuation.
It is that we are moving forward, not that we have reached some unsurpassable plateau.
Mock what you see today and you will be left in the dust just like those who mocked the Atari 2600 and the video game crash back in the 80s as that being the end all ultimate video game experiences.

Quote
CLIENT:  "we have this thing that we do, that nobody here really understands and we would like you to make a computer program for it to do ...stuff??.....No, we cannot explain in detail what it should do, that is why we hired you... If we knew we wouldn't need you, would we?  We expect it next week."...
PROGRAMMER:  :palm:

With that many details ....  >:D

I feel your pain...

I believe you picked really wrong comparison. Atari wasn't end of all gaming experience, off course.
What we have here is someone saying that fact that games are thousands of times more sophisticated in every way, they will feed the hungry. No, they won't.

Whether it is Tetris in text mode or newest 4K super duper game with perfect graphics it serves same purpose: to waste an afternoon on gaming.

I'm not mocking. I might be jaded by click bait culture that is prevalent these days...
As I said I'm utterly impressed by AI processing of natural language.

And when function of a program is to map a certain solutions database to a natural sentence it works well. That can be demonstrated by search engines and such.
But that is a knowledge mapping, IE, answering the questions from a knowledge pool.
What does that have to do with programing? If you look closely, what was demonstrated here is really answer to a question "what C language commands would perform these functions?".
And that IS impressive.

It just ain't programming. It would be something very cool if it would allow this: it could create a program from your plain language specification. But in order to do so you would need to create formal, detailed specification of all processes, steps and algorithms that would guarantee mathematically/formally correct implementation.

And this is the part that is quite funny.   Concept of higher computer languages (both formal ones and specific language implementations) and whole language of mathematics was invented specifically for the reason that natural human languages (English for instance) suck and are horrible for the task of that.  Human language is great for stories and that kind of narrative.

And that is what I'm arguing here (not the acumen of AI experts that wrote that impressive piece of code): Job of programmers  is mapping real world problems expressed in imprecise and emotional words of natural language in formal (mathematical if you will) form that is conductive to creation of instructions for the computers  to perform the job that is needed and to do it right.
It is not about syntax or even a language used.

And if you want to create machine code by AI, you would still need to standardize on a "computer programing language subset of English with advanced forms and structures needed to express software definitions". You would need to do that in a standardized way so many people could work on same problem.

Which would mean you just invented "just another a bit higher level programing language"..
That is my point.
Best,
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline BrianHGTopic starter

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2022, 12:17:08 am »
@2N3055, you do realize this was neural-net derived.  It was trained by example and then given other examples to generate results.  It self-learned to code, not that a team of people programmed a database how to interpret English and how to code.  You do know that the neural-net can be vastly expanded as well as the generalization of the description for what the resulting code should do.  I'm sure the technology will progress as more NN computing becomes available and training becomes faster.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2022, 12:22:12 am »
Yes I realize that. It is irrelevant. What was demonstrated here is that AI reverse engineered the compiler not the programmer. ^-^
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 07:09:43 am by 2N3055 »
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2022, 01:04:23 am »
Who cares? This is AI! This is part of the 4th industrial revolution, so this is progress and you won't escape it. Even if it does nothing useful. :-DD
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2022, 01:20:31 am »
I think that it's time we repurposed

Quote from: Peter G. Neumann
If you think cryptography will solve your problem, either you don’t understand cryptography, or you don’t understand your problem.

into

"If you think AI will solve your problem, either you don’t understand AI, or you don’t understand your problem."

Bonus: If you want to watch a grown man or woman weep, find someone who works with neural nets and ask "So, how are you getting on with your problems with gradient descent?"
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 01:24:38 am by Cerebus »
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2022, 04:59:36 am »
Is it really AI though? Sorting through a bunch of macros but not having the ability to maybe create a special use case macro when none of your existing ones fit takes intelligence.

And as far as AI and programming goes, if there ever was a golden opportunity for AI to learn and be powerful, all they have to do is point it at software help forums. The existing vast database of questions and solutions and importantly, marked as solved solutions.

Hey Siri, make me a widget...
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Capernicus

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2022, 06:00:22 am »
Its really amazing, but if u want to be a negative creep, then you can definitely point to the fact that the more the computers thinking for you, the less you have to use your own brain.

And that can be said for all super a.i.,  its always been the same, the more the computer can do automatically the less you have to do yourself manually, and there definitely is a minus to that!

Its also true for super parallel gpu code,  now the computer is so blindingly fast, it just promotes lazy code on behalf of the programmer!

Its true in nature too,  if things go to easy for an animal, it regresses into a dodo and now it cant even defend itself anymore.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 06:05:19 am by Capernicus »
 

Offline ace1903

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2022, 08:20:35 am »
It is not programming. There is something called "Monkey see monkey do .." paradigm.
Several years ago I was given a task to create application for Android phone. Experienced in C, C++ and in general everything for embedded system engineering but with zero knowledge in Java.
I had access to source code of whole Android phone and indexed all applications. I took me 4-5 days and I prepared the application. Copy entry form from one application, "single sign on" from another,
something else from third application and it worked well.
Very next week I needed to destroy an object in Java. I spent 5 days to find out that I need only to give NULL value to the reference  in order to destroy the object. Completely trivial that was not mentioned in any book or tutorial or How to guide.
Five days for the application vs five days for one line.
This AI code generator is simply that. Monkey given with thousands of examples. It will produce ton of code but never to be trusted for any serious task. 
 
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Offline dferyance

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2022, 01:39:54 pm »
I wonder / hope that it will eliminate some subset of programming. Programming is used in for so many fields and problems that there is a massive difference between the mundane, e.g. create a CRUD DB api and some GUI screens, and truly difficult problems.

This risk is always that people who don't know the field see the easy stuff being done so easily that they assume everything is easy. But that is nothing new.

If AI can replace programming, then it can replace mathematicians -- as programming is a form of math that pre-dates the electronic computer. I have my doubts.
 
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Offline SL4P

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2022, 11:28:04 pm »
The term AI has been irreparably corrupted.
These are guided outcomes for some professional or commercial advantage.
The ‘intelligence’ is only acceptable if it satisfies the investor.

True AI, or what I call SI - ‘Synthetic Intelligence’ - to separate it… is able to learn and grow without predefined imperatives… natural learning if you will - allowed to make mistakes and evolve with ‘experience’ over time.

Not as ‘efficient’, but much more robust and capable in the long term.
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 
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Offline BrianHGTopic starter

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2022, 01:14:56 pm »
True AI, or what I call SI - ‘Synthetic Intelligence’ - to separate it… is able to learn and grow without predefined imperatives… natural learning if you will - allowed to make mistakes and evolve with ‘experience’ over time.
Give it around 20 years...
It will come.
Though, it will probably take over a megawatt of power to replicate the 25 watt consuming human brain.
 
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Offline EPAIII

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2022, 08:28:06 am »
Smart as a good engineer? Definitely not!

Smart as a programmer? From what I have seen of programmers, yup!

Smart as the average engineer? I don't think so but it could work up to that level.
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 

Online RJSV

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2022, 04:14:18 am »
All this...'TALK',...I'm just wondering, when somebody finds THEM 'sneaking', a couple trys, at coding, at like, 3 am in some computer LAB / University Center...

   You folks can 'argue', (and I do appreciate the thoughts), but, meanwhile, self-aware, blah blah blah, BUT I don't like to face THAT potential dynamic.
Not gonna share MY personal (energy credits) allotment...
 

Offline lwatts666

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2022, 07:46:04 am »
I read an article long ago (cannot remember where) that quoted the three conditions for considering AI successful:

1) It sometimes makes a mistake.
2) It can review its results and recognize that it made a mistake.
3) It successfully blames its mistake on someone else.

So far, I think we have achieved step 1.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2022, 08:13:50 pm »
I read an article long ago (cannot remember where) that quoted the three conditions for considering AI successful:

1) It sometimes makes a mistake.
2) It can review its results and recognize that it made a mistake.
3) It successfully blames its mistake on someone else.

So far, I think we have achieved step 1.

The 3 is actually implicit, as currently, AI can only be as good as it's been trained to be - so mistakes do depend on someone else anyway. The problem is that this "someone else" has been very good at evading their responsibility.
 
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Offline daqq

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2022, 08:48:25 pm »
1) It sometimes makes a mistake.
2) It can review its results and recognize that it made a mistake.
3) It successfully blames its mistake on someone else.
4. Tries to pass it off as a feature.
5. Starts ranting about how marketing and management are always changing requirements.
6. Slowly counts to 2^32 - 1 to calm itself down after a call with the customer.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2022, 08:59:46 pm »
True AI, or what I call SI - ‘Synthetic Intelligence’ - to separate it… is able to learn and grow without predefined imperatives… natural learning if you will - allowed to make mistakes and evolve with ‘experience’ over time.
Give it around 20 years...
It will come.
Though, it will probably take over a megawatt of power to replicate the 25 watt consuming human brain.
What makes you so certain?

Looking at history, it's very difficult to predict the future of technology, based on its current sate. Go back to the 1950s and there were loads of crazy predictions of flying cars and nuclear power providing all our energy, yet no one for saw the developments in electronics, computing and information technology: look at all of those documentaries about the future, showing machines with knobs and dials, not a touchscreen or GUI in sight!

In short, you're probably wrong, just as much as others who've argued with you in this thread.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2022, 07:22:18 am by Zero999 »
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2022, 06:35:36 am »
All these coding AIs are trained on code written by humans, I'm not worried...
 

Offline Zipdox

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2022, 11:09:35 am »
I'm pretty sure these AI programmers only work on high level languages. Good luck programming any performant applications with them.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Programmers, our days are numbered, see this:
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2022, 10:39:45 am »
Does anyone know if neural networks have been used in proper compliers? I can see how it would be useful at optimising code for speed/size, after training it on high level source vs human optimised assembly code.
 


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