Proof that expensive HDMI cables make no difference

[EEVblog]

Well, I'm shocked... 
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-entertainment/1292371/expensive-hdmi-cables-make-no-difference-the-absolute-proof

[electrophiliate]

No surprises there. This part made me laugh out loud:

"In fact, James Randi has even extended his $1 million prize for anyone that can prove paranormal activity to include anyone that can prove that expensive HDMI cables make a difference."

What other audiophoolery could that offer be applied too?

Some of the cheap HDMI cables I've purchased didn't last long before the picture started breaking up. Poorly made or even faulty wires from (minimal) wear and tear due to occasional movement?

[Dave]

Some of the cheap HDMI cables I've purchased didn't last long before the picture started breaking up. Faulty wires from (minimal) wear and tear due to occasional movement?

Probably poor contact from shitty connectors.

Quality cables might be more reliable than cheap shit, but they still aren't going to give you a more vivid picture and warmer sound (marketing wank for morons like audiophools).

[EEVblog]

"In fact, James Randi has even extended his $1 million prize for anyone that can prove paranormal activity to include anyone that can prove that expensive HDMI cables make a difference."
What other audiophoolery could that offer be applied too?

He started out offering it for monster/wank speaker cable. No one has claimed it yet...

[mikeselectricstuff]

No surprises there. This part made me laugh out loud:
"In fact, James Randi has even extended his $1 million prize for anyone that can prove paranormal activity to include anyone that can prove that expensive HDMI cables make a difference."

I think that was just a joke, but would be a risky offer, as you could hook up an expensive data analyser to measure differences in error margin and demonstrate that some cables were better than others in terms of analogue signal integrity, though I suspect there would be little correlation to cost.

[Dr. Frank]

Well, the sad truth is, that the mechanical design of the HDMI plug is really poor, especially the contacts construction, obviously regarding contact pressure .

Those cheap cables, with tinned contacts, often lead to complete interruption of transmission, especially on our TV set, connected to SAT receiver + BluRay Player + MM PC, and which is mounted on a moveable desk.
Jiggling at the plugs helped temporarily only.

Only when I bought SLIGHTLY more expensive cables , with gold plated contacts and better mechanical feeling of the plugs, those problems vanished completely.
Therefore, those gold plated HDMI cables should cost a little bit more, up to 10 bucks.

The Display Port standard is much more reliable, because the plug is tightly hooked.

Frank

[Kjelt]

Money has nothing to do with it indeed, it is all about the quality of the shielding.
There is even a rating for it : high speed hdmi cable or standard speed and yes that makes a huge difference (in shielding) 
For short lengths (<5m) and low bandwidth there will not be any difference as in the test but take my personal experience almost two years ago:

A 10 meter HDMI cable from a processor to my HD projector playing 1080p 3D 24fps content on it (uncompressed so +/- 4Gbps at 12 bit colordepth) and my old (2004) Oehlbach cable (costing $200 in 2004) could not handle it (bit errors, green/red/blue pixel rain).
A brand new cheap wank-name cable couldn't handle it either (also picture defects but less then the old cable) and a (rather expensive unfortunately) active cable (built in amplifier) it was perfect again.

[andtfoot]

I work in the AV industry myself, so have come across various HDMI cables. I try to only use cables from commercial AV manufacturers, like Extron or Kramer Electronics.

Generally, from a reputable manufacturer, a more expensive cable will allow longer distances before issues. This is due to better shielding, thicker conductors, etc.
It obviously doesn't make the picture better than a cheap one, as long as both are working properly.
Like the difference between these Extron models:
Extron HDMI Pro Series
Extron HDMI Micro Series
The Micro series is better suited to interconnects in a rack because it's easier to work with, but is only specified up to 2m without active extension.
The Pro series is specified up to 23m without active extension. If I'm hitting that kind of distance though, chances are I'd spec in a HDBaseT extension system, which runs over CATx cable.

The other difference I've found is the connectors themselves. The decent brands have less chance of munching the connection, stay in better (you can even get locking ones), and are terminated better. I've had cheapy Jaycar ones with the rotatable heads barely able to get 2m; pulling apart the end, and there is unshielded/untwisted wires for at least a few cm...

[Kjelt]

The Display Port standard is much more reliable, because the plug is tightly hooked. 

A few years ago all HDMI receptacles got a screw above it. They are meant for modern HDMI plugs to be screwed tight so the weight of the HDMI connector does not get it loose. For older HDMI plug you can buy HDMI clips that fit round HDMI cables and screw it tight (see picture).
I used them for all my HDMI cables on the processor where I could hardly reach it (so annoyance to push them back every two months) since the heavier connectors have more problems with it. You can alternatively use other means of mechanical support.

But I agree totally with the (*&^(*&^ quality of the HDMI plug you would think that after the SCART debacle where the cable would also get loose if you use all pins connected they would think twice. But no.... Even for HDMI 2.0 where the bandwidth has tripled they still choose the same shitty design so I am already waiting for the next round of complaints with those incredible bandwidths of 4k uncompressed video.

[saturation]

Great link and test strategy.

I've been using 50c cables since 2008 and work well to 1080p/30fps, i.e., bluray.  By 2012 I had so many cables and wondering about new specs I got certified category 2 HDMI from Monoprice cables for $3 each delivered, and they sell them in many colors, so the true advantage for me was color coding which cables came from what device.  No difference visually.

1st generation HDMI cables, including the cheapo 50c no name cables did have looser fitting HDMI jacks.  I think the mechanical integrity was improved later.  Also because of the shielding issues, short cheapo cables are likely to be trouble free than those over 3 feet long.

Note, because of increased counterfeiting I'd be leery today of any cables from dubious sources [such as eBay no-name], they may not even have wire inside them.  In the USA, this company went from a garage operation to what they are today in 10 years.

http://www.monoprice.com/Search/Index?keyword=hdmi

[madires]

For the common setup with short cables I buy cheap HDMI cables and haven't had any issues so far. Ok, if you need long cables or you're re-patching them several times, higher quality cables make sense. OTOH, I'm asking myself why there aren't more opticals links used. Copper is fine for short distances and the chips are cheap but if you have longer distances, optical links become the better choice. Or define a transceiver module slot which allows to insert a HDMI or optical module, like the GBICs for Ethernet.

[amyk]

"if two files have the same MD5 hash, they're physically and scientifically identical, no argument"
Strictly speaking not exactly, although the chances of them producing an MD5 collision in the frame image are next to nothing.

From what I know HDMI is 8b/10b-encoded so I would've liked to see them use a test image that truly stresses the electrical characteristics of the cable i.e. contains mostly high-frequency components, that might make a difference with the cheapest cables (but then again, that would be imperceptible in regular use.)

"We had to force an error by reversing a uni-directional cable"
Wait, what?

[Fsck]

For the common setup with short cables I buy cheap HDMI cables and haven't had any issues so far. Ok, if you need long cables or you're re-patching them several times, higher quality cables make sense. OTOH, I'm asking myself why there aren't more opticals links used. Copper is fine for short distances and the chips are cheap but if you have longer distances, optical links become the better choice. Or define a transceiver module slot which allows to insert a HDMI or optical module, like the GBICs for Ethernet.

(consumer) world doesn't like transceivers. increases complexity and cost. and how far do you really need hdmi to go? I live in an apartment so I've never ran into any length issues, 10ft is already overkill for me.

also, monoprice's redmere cables are great, they're the most flexible cable used in my home theatre setup. (try bending 2 conductor 12AWG speaker cable with a 1/2 foot bend radius and getting it to stay and not cause damage!)

[gxti]

"We had to force an error by reversing a uni-directional cable"
Wait, what?

Dunno. Active cables are (usually?) uni-directional because they have an amplifier/equalizer in one end or both, but I wouldn't expect that to work at all if you had it backwards.

[madshaman]

Yikes, it's so uncomplicated, as long as the cable assembly meets spec the only differences from one cable to another are mechanical, like: how sturdy are the connectors?  Do they have good tolerances?  Is the cable flexible enough to be easy to work with?  Does the cable wear well?

Why don't more comparisons focus on this important stuff?

Why can't we put up a billboard that says: "if it's digital and the cable works, you're already getting maximum fidelity".

Honestly, we forget that for most consumers, technology is no different than magic and the stuff an EE says sounds no different than a bulls*** artist to them.

What compounds it is that no-one likes to be dumb and many consumers educate themselves by taking bulls*** artists at their word.

[Kjelt]

Yikes, it's so uncomplicated, as long as the cable assembly meets spec

That's the whole point for HDMI. The cables should be tested on maximum bandwidth and this should be guaranteed and put on the cable.
Instead there is no exact spec where the term high speed is guaranteed so every manufacturer puts it on their cables (when it passes at 1 meter) even when it fails after 8 meters.
The only company that specifies and guarantees the data througput of their HDMI cables and put their rating in Gb/s on the package is Monster, a company that makes a lot of money and a lot of engineers here will probably call a wanker company, but at least they test it, guarantee it and put it on their cable.

That said, I think the whole forum will explode in a giant rant if an A brand testequipment manufacturer would put on their new generation scopes and probes only a bandwidth specification of: high speed 

[Richard Crowley]

Why can't we put up a billboard that says: "if it's digital and the cable works, you're already getting maximum fidelity".

I typically agree with that, but there is a narrow margin where digital circuits engage "recovery" mode and attempt to re-construct a bitstream that has some corruption. Now, most equipment has a "hair-trigger" where it is either 99.4% "good" or else it simply mutes the signal as "unrecoverable". 

We think of "digital" as simply ones and zeroes. But, of course, in the real world, "one" and "zero" are represented by some analog voltage or current.  And getting those analog signals from one place to the other, intact, is the trick. We keep developing better ways of doing this. The latest of which is LVDS (Low Voltage Differential Signaling), TIA/EIA-644. HDMI and DVI and SATA, for example, use LVDS.  And the hinge connection between the keyboard/base and the flip-up screen in most laptop computers use LVDS twisted pairs for communication.

[diyaudio]

I just buy a cable and normally just grade it based on the build and materials (not the silver and gold claims)

[Stonent]

There's a company in the US called Bluejeans cable that custom makes audio and video cables they are significantly less expensive than the wank cables but using better plugs and genuine Belden cable. They claim that they frequently make cables that are used for special situations that exceed and sometimes double the maximum allowed HDMI length before they get noticeable artifacting.

I think the owners used to be television broadcast engineers.

No nude virgins or tellurium copper though but they are a certified Belden assembler and crimp their connections with a 3 ton press. 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/aboutus.htm

[Fsck]

There's a company in the US called Bluejeans cable that custom makes audio and video cables they are significantly less expensive than the wank cables but using better plugs and genuine Belden cable. They claim that they frequently make cables that are used for special situations that exceed and sometimes double the maximum allowed HDMI length before they get noticeable artifacting.

I think the owners used to be television broadcast engineers.

No nude virgins or tellurium copper though but they are a certified Belden assembler and crimp their connections with a 3 ton press. 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/aboutus.htm

active hdmi is probably still better, though I haven't looked into long runs personally.

not sure about the dig against tellurium copper though. it's basically the "proper" default for machined items and electrically superior to beryllium copper (which manufacturers also "promote")

[Stonent]

There's a company in the US called Bluejeans cable that custom makes audio and video cables they are significantly less expensive than the wank cables but using better plugs and genuine Belden cable. They claim that they frequently make cables that are used for special situations that exceed and sometimes double the maximum allowed HDMI length before they get noticeable artifacting.

I think the owners used to be television broadcast engineers.

No nude virgins or tellurium copper though but they are a certified Belden assembler and crimp their connections with a 3 ton press. 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/aboutus.htm

active hdmi is probably still better, though I haven't looked into long runs personally.

not sure about the dig against tellurium copper though. it's basically the "proper" default for machined items and electrically superior to beryllium copper (which manufacturers also "promote")

It was just a joke.  Mainly how Dave gets excited about probe connections. 

[SirNick]

There's a company in the US called Bluejeans cable that custom makes audio and video cables they are significantly less expensive than the wank cables but using better plugs and genuine Belden cable. They claim that they frequently make cables that are used for special situations that exceed and sometimes double the maximum allowed HDMI length before they get noticeable artifacting.

When I upgraded to HDMI, I got all my cables from them.  Good stuff.  I like how they separate the options into useful classifications, like: good for the price, and perfectly OK for short runs; and: you'll want this for feeding a projector, but the bend radius isn't so hot.

On the other hand, their RCA cables are a little north of reasonable IMO.  I needed an 8-cable snake to connect my 7.1 pre/pro to the amp.  I swallowed a bug when I saw the price for a 1m long patch.    I picked up a Hosa snake instead, for something like $25.

Just for fun, stop by an audiophile forum some time and try to explain why lossless codecs cannot possibly sound different.  I went so far as to encode three sample tracks from different genres of music from wave to FLAC and ALAC.  Then, I decoded them back to wave.  I stripped the header from each, leaving just the PCM data behind, and used a binary comparison tool to compare them.  Zero differences -- bit perfect.  Nonetheless, "I'm telling you, I heard a difference on my system!"  Sure ya did.    Guess I just need to upgrade my speaker cable to get those file comparisons to show the real differences.

[bithead9]

GREAT article link on Expert Reviews!  I always thought there was nothing different (should not be).  However my former boss would always brag about his Monster cables!  I just laughed    (in my head) now I would have an argument    The only unfortunate thing is that someone wasted their time to prove the obvious.   

[Richard Crowley]

Monster Cables is doubly despicable IMHO.  Not only do they sell wank cables, but they have a legal firm on retainer to harrass and actually shake down (blackmail) ANY company with the work "Monster" in their name, no matter how completely removed from cables they are.  They even tried to go after the employment website of that name, but of course the employment website had a bigger law firm than Monster Cables did.  There are likely hundreds of little companies that have nothing to do with cables who are paying Monster "license royalties" (i.e. blackmail) to keep using the word "monster" in their name. Just because it was cheaper than hiring an attorney to defend themselves.

Moster Cable's legal firm made the mistake of trying to shake down (read: "blackmail") Bluejeans Cable at one point.  Alas, the founder of Bluejeans Cable is a former patent-law attorney, and he really gave them what-for in a withering legal response which he as posted on his website.  VERY RECOMMENDED READING!

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/

[Rigby]

If it has the HDMI logo on the cable, then it'll work.  That is literally all you need to know about HDMI cables.

I bought a 50' (about 15m) HDMI cable on Amazon for USD$25, and it works great.  I probably could have found one less expensive than that.