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General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: BravoV on October 08, 2019, 01:01:02 pm

Title: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 08, 2019, 01:01:02 pm
... even you're totally innocent, its like you're cursed just because you're born at the other wrong side of the pond.

-> Adobe is cutting off users in Venezuela due to US sanctions (https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20904030/adobe-venezuela-photoshop-behance-us-sanctions)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGTKHsGUEAAV9yT?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: daqq on October 08, 2019, 01:54:57 pm
And yet there still are people who are OK with eagle being moved to a subscription only system.  :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 08, 2019, 02:01:38 pm
That makes the landlords of the 21st century. Software landlords. Everything is rented.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 08, 2019, 02:29:55 pm
That makes the landlords of the 21st century. Software landlords. Everything is rented.

Nope, this is even much worst that renting as in real estate deal, according to the details, even you just paid the rent yesterday, by tomorrow you will be kicked out, and no refund at all.

I guess this time, the reborn of so called new wave of "W4r3z" is imminent, as this is more political rather than just freebies.

Geez... almost forgot that "W" words as its so 90s .  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 08, 2019, 02:36:21 pm
And yet there still are people who are OK with eagle being moved to a subscription only system.  :palm:

I guess those people never had a chance to imagine, that one day, suddenly they lost their access to their hard worked circuit or pcb designs, just because a leader of a country said so.

Yep, even they're stored locally, as the need to be onlined in order to launch the program, means nothing to prevent the software to lock down all your files once it successfully contacted the mothership.  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 08, 2019, 02:36:26 pm
That makes the landlords of the 21st century. Software landlords. Everything is rented.

Nope, this is even much worst that renting as in real estate deal, according to the details, even you just paid the rent yesterday, by tomorrow you will be kicked out, and no refund at all.

Well, the idea is the same, but yes this is currently "worse" as there are general laws that protect real estate renters, whereas the laws that protect customers in general are a bit less favorable.

But the fact that "rent" is slowly becoming the only, or at least predominant sales model, is definitely concerning.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on October 08, 2019, 02:39:33 pm
I'm curious to see if Autodesk (Eagle) is going to be affected...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 08, 2019, 02:48:52 pm
I'm curious to see if Autodesk (Eagle) is going to be affected...

Your innocent question there is no different to ..

... "Does WannaCry ransomware author will not abuse the newly version of his/her work that already infected many computers ?"  >:D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: dferyance on October 08, 2019, 03:24:14 pm
The move towards cloud services has multiple causes. There are software companies (e.g. Adobe) trying to push software as a service on their customers. However, the customers themselves often are driving this move too.

Say you know of some useful program for your organization that cost $5K. Well, you need to get management approval, IT approval, order equipment to run it and that is a lot of red tape. Or you can find a cloud service for $100 a month that will go on your company credit card and bypass all those approvals. So software providers feel like they have to provide cloud services to be competitive.

What is difficult is the red tape of going through management and IT is important and necessary. Is the system secure? Are backups in place? How is their technical support when something doesn't work? How do we get our data if they shut down? Do they integrate with our user account management? All this gets bypassed. I've seen this happen where different departments all order different cloud services -- often ones that do the same thing -- with no regard for security or the long-term. But because they can slip it under the radar it happens. When an employee is terminated are they removed from all the different cloud-service accounts... maybe. Sometimes IT is the cause too. It is easy to justify signing up for a cloud service that has no big upfront investment than it is to order a system that is good for long term. IT expenses can be high and so there is pressure to go cheap -- at least cheap for the short term.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 08, 2019, 04:13:29 pm
One of the many reasons I absolutely hate the subscription model.  You are at the mercy of the provider and it can be yanked at any time.  I'm a big fan of ownership (or as close as you can get to it at least).  Same with my home I would never want to rent.  If I started a business with a store front or shop or whatever I'd want to own too. Gives me more control and I'm not at the mercy of anyone when it comes to things like repairs or improvements etc nor do I need to worry about being evicted for any reason.  (ex: they want to tear it down)

Unfortunately it seems everything is moving to cloud now and it will get harder and harder to resist.   Even things that arn't necessarily cloud based still require you to make an account and have the product tied to some cloud.  Game consoles for example are all like that now.   Even Gopros and DJI drones and lot of similar products.   Pisses me off, there's no technical reason for it to require that.  It's just done to track you.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2019, 04:20:30 pm
It was never supposed to "work" for the users....  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 08, 2019, 04:35:18 pm
Not being able to refund due to the order is obviously bullshit. If they can provide services or a "grace period" until October 28 they can definitely refund before the order goes into full effect. They're just conveniently waiting for the door to fall shut and then claim they can't do anything because it's locked now. The whole Adobe cloud thing isn't a great experience to begin with but this just emphasises it's best avoided even when you do have access. It's not as if the software has been developed much the past 5 to 10 years anyway. History teaches us this kind of overconfidence ends up costing you your market dominance so good riddance.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 08, 2019, 04:46:02 pm
I've decided to ditch Adobe and buy software I own instead. Paint Shop Pro can work with .PSD files and happens to be on sale with the Humble Bundle right now. Bye Adobe!

https://www.humblebundle.com/software/painter-create-with-confidence (https://www.humblebundle.com/software/painter-create-with-confidence)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: sokoloff on October 08, 2019, 04:47:40 pm
I don’t work at adobe or have any other ties, but I’m quite sure Adobe doesn’t care about one month’s revenue from the entire country of Venezuela.

It’s important to realize that large companies are not single, unified brain organisms. A lot of what looks dumb from the outside is not out of malice but rather out of the inherent lack of coordination inside multi-national, tens of thousands of employees organizations.

There is almost surely no devious master plan to screw these users out of an extra month of subscription revenue. 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 08, 2019, 05:04:31 pm
I don’t work at adobe or have any other ties, but I’m quite sure Adobe doesn’t care about one month’s revenue from the entire country of Venezuela.

It’s important to realize that large companies are not single, unified brain organisms. A lot of what looks dumb from the outside is not out of malice but rather out of the inherent lack of coordination inside multi-national, tens of thousands of employees organizations.

There is almost surely no devious master plan to screw these users out of an extra month of subscription revenue.
Malicious indifference is possibly even worse. Like you I doubt that Adobe cares about those subscription fees but they don't seem to make any effort to say goodbye to their customers appropriately. It's a shoddy situation anyway but this is akin to booting your paying customers out with an insult.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 08, 2019, 05:39:51 pm
The move towards cloud services has multiple causes. There are software companies (e.g. Adobe) trying to push software as a service on their customers. However, the customers themselves often are driving this move too.

Say you know of some useful program for your organization that cost $5K. Well, you need to get management approval, IT approval, order equipment to run it and that is a lot of red tape. Or you can find a cloud service for $100 a month that will go on your company credit card and bypass all those approvals. So software providers feel like they have to provide cloud services to be competitive.

What is difficult is the red tape of going through management and IT is important and necessary. Is the system secure? Are backups in place? How is their technical support when something doesn't work? How do we get our data if they shut down? Do they integrate with our user account management? All this gets bypassed. I've seen this happen where different departments all order different cloud services -- often ones that do the same thing -- with no regard for security or the long-term. But because they can slip it under the radar it happens. When an employee is terminated are they removed from all the different cloud-service accounts... maybe. Sometimes IT is the cause too. It is easy to justify signing up for a cloud service that has no big upfront investment than it is to order a system that is good for long term. IT expenses can be high and so there is pressure to go cheap -- at least cheap for the short term.

I don't have the current data for it, but based on circumstantial evidence ($) I guess the bigger pusher of clouds in business is IT departments itself and the reason is money.

Google can "sell" gmail at such low cost that IT departments cannot possibly match.  How would a CIO justify a budget of X for email to the CFO or CEO?  Email is but one, then there is Office 365, there is Cloud based HR, Cloud based Sales/Marketing, Cloud based ERP...

Clouds is in a way like outsourcing program development.  The benefits are immediate and visible but the problems and real cost are hidden and on delayed trigger.  If you ask Boeing how much the 737-Max software problem costs, they can't even answer it because the cost is still increasing.

As bad as this is for development, manufacturing is affected too.  A factory could be running on some machines requiring some connection to the cloud.  IoT is increasing that potential issue is increasing every product cycle - as more and more equipment and manufacturers are jumping into the Cloud+IoT band wagon using services like Microsoft Azure IoT Cloud and others.  Just think about all the PLCs in a factory (for lack of a better term) with it's balls in someone else's hand.

Even consumers are affected too.

FDA (US Federal Food and Drug Admin) Cyber Security warning re Medtronic MiniMed Insulin Pumps potential cybersecurity risks issued June, 2019 - In the list of do's and dont's... do not share your insulin pump serial number.

Microsoft will shutdown its HealthVault service come November.  What happens to your Blood Pressure Monitor data?  While I am sure the cloud service supplier will assist the manufacturers in transition to their next version stuff, but that no doubt costs would be > 0.  End users needing such connection would just have to buy the next model and that cost would also be > 0 also.

I am waiting for the News paper headline - John Doe is convicted of murder by hacking into his wife's car and remote driven it into the waterfall.

I am sure Cloud-based sex robot is but just another product cycle away.  A user of Sex Bot - The Next Generation who has a certain body parts inexplicably caught within the bot will get an automated call from the ransom-ware: Hey, want to keep it?  Click here to send money or you loose that forever.

Clouds/IoT has its use, but if you don't need it, don't add on additional layer of potential show-stopper.  I hope, may be in a few years, more and more users will see the light and kill this idea of Cloud and this IoT for everything madness.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 08, 2019, 05:47:04 pm
Quote
Adobe is cutting off users in Venezuela due to US sanctions

Can't they use a VPN?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 08, 2019, 05:51:50 pm
I am sure Cloud-based sex robot is but just another product cycle away.  A user of Sex Bot - The Next Generation who has a certain body parts inexplicably caught within the bot will get an automated call from the ransom-ware: Hey, want to keep it?  Click here to send money or you loose that forever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWwikNgKvQE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWwikNgKvQE)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: wraper on October 08, 2019, 05:53:09 pm
Quote
Adobe is cutting off users in Venezuela due to US sanctions

Can't they use a VPN?
They can. However old accounts will be axed regardless. The same thing happened with Crimea a few years ago. US based registrars started axing domains registered with Crimean credentials.
EDIT: also they will likely have trouble to pay for service.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 08, 2019, 06:56:55 pm
Note that you could also be screwed with full licenses if the software uses some kind of online activation. If a regular check is required by your particular software, and the server gets permanently unaccessible, you could get eventually "kicked out".
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: daqq on October 08, 2019, 07:01:33 pm
Quote
Adobe is cutting off users in Venezuela due to US sanctions

Can't they use a VPN?
That's not exactly the point. While I'm sure people could jury rig some awful system that would eventually enable them to use and pay for said software (or just use a crack), the point is that you are essentially renting your core tools and at the end of the day and are subject to the whims too many people/institutions.

This is even different from previous restrictions/embargoes - if you buy a CNC machine, a pick an place machine or even a hammer, you continue to own and be able to use said tool. All the time you have invested in it will not go to waste.

The situation is different with software tools. So, let's take software like Eagle, you've built up a cool bunch of libraries and the past few years of your work continues to make dozens of (mostly) local customers happy are sitting happily on some cloud*. Whoops, one of your politicians said something insulting (but hilarious) about an orange man, or any other of a dozen political situations comes up, the situation gets messier up goes the sanction. Or for that matter your ISP provider had a drunk a admin get really disgruntled and the net will be down for a week or two*.

Using a cloud and/or internet access mandatory system essentially means that you are giving up a surety for no gain for you.

* - yes, I know, some software is offline-ish, and has a local cache that enables you to work without access to the net... for a while.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Brumby on October 09, 2019, 08:40:04 am
I don't like the idea of anything outside of my immediate control having the potential to affect my ability to do work.

I avoid subscription service options whenever possible.  At this point, I have a 100% success rate.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 09, 2019, 08:50:33 am
That an app is a web page does NOT necessarily mean it can't be run offline. EasyEDA for example, they give you the app so that you can run it locally if you wish. Just have to open it and point your browser to a local port instead, where the app is listening. And it works very well!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Brumby on October 09, 2019, 09:43:21 am
That's all fine - so long as there isn't some server-side dependency.  Then you're stuffed.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 09, 2019, 09:50:11 am
It's the same for programs that you "buy" but check the license online...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Halcyon on October 09, 2019, 10:02:01 am
I can see businesses (and individuals) turning their backs on the whole "cloud" model as instances increase of companies just turning their backs on customers, going bust, being bought out, discontinuing products etc... If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up. This is just the modern-day equivalent of software which phones home just to run, install or activate or relies on a physical dongle with a time restriction.

Consumers are slowly realising that they have lost control (and in some cases, ownership) of their data and software purchases. For example, I switched from Microsoft Office to LibreOffice the moment I needed any sort of online account just to type a letter or activate the software.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Brumby on October 09, 2019, 11:43:11 am
If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: daqq on October 09, 2019, 04:03:51 pm
Quote
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.
There are things that I use it for - as a backup solution and a sync between computers it simplifies things... but is not critical and can easily be replaced should the company in question go belly up. I don't mind cloud applications that by definition need a cloud, such as syncing devices, offsite storage and similar. But a professional application to be cloud and cloud only and need to call home every week or so to ? No thanks.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 09, 2019, 04:32:01 pm
But a professional application to be cloud and cloud only and need to call home every week or so to ? No thanks.

Btw, even worst, your OS.

For example Windows 10  -> Windows 10 users fume: Microsoft, where's our 'local account' option gone? (https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-users-fume-microsoft-wheres-our-local-account-option-gone/)  :palm:

Its starting and it seems like Microsoft is testing the ground of acceptance, slowly.

There is no way I will surrender the local admin account, this means only one thing, surrender your ownership, power and control over your own computer.

Its easy to imagine one day, you turned on your computer and suddenly your OS tells you that you are no longer can use your computer, access your files and all are locked, just because a dude which happened to be another country's leader said so.  :wtf: :rant:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Sal Ammoniac on October 09, 2019, 04:36:18 pm
Gives me more control and I'm not at the mercy of anyone when it comes to things like repairs or improvements etc nor do I need to worry about being evicted for any reason.  (ex: they want to tear it down)

Canada doesn't have something similar to the U.S. concept of eminent domain?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: CatalinaWOW on October 09, 2019, 05:56:44 pm
Ownership is good, but is only a partial/weak solution.  I have any number of useful programs from the 90s that won't run under current OS.  So I have to maintain an old OS.  If hardware fails under them I am then trying to re-install old OS, but activation mechanism may not exist any longer.  So far I have been able to keep most of them alive, but it continues to get harder and harder.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 09, 2019, 06:46:23 pm
Uninstalled Fusion 360. Back to FreeCAD.

If you think this is all bad consider someone like Amazon. You build your product on their equipment with their services. There is no escape the moment you pull that first non IaaS component in.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: hendorog on October 09, 2019, 06:50:35 pm
Uninstalled Fusion 360. Back to FreeCAD.

If you think this is all bad consider someone like Amazon. You build your product on their equipment with their services. There is no escape the moment you pull that first non IaaS component in.

No escape _without some porting effort_

Which is the same as it has always been. Round and round we go.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 09, 2019, 07:01:16 pm
I know someone who tried to port their stuff away from just S3 due to escalating costs. Not as easy as it looks. Things like Redshift are even worse. Then there’s the predatory SQL server pricing on Azure vs AWS for example.

I only recommend fully portable IaaS.

Watch this space. Literally I’m betting my future on “unclouding” businesses.  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: hendorog on October 09, 2019, 07:11:19 pm
I know someone who tried to port their stuff away from just S3 due to escalating costs. Not as easy as it looks. Things like Redshift are even worse.

Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.



Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 09, 2019, 07:22:54 pm
I always buy full licenses. I just don't feel comfortable to have essentially my money controlled by someone else, and something bas simple as a network outage bricks my software.

Note that you could also be screwed with full licenses if the software uses some kind of online activation. If a regular check is required by your particular software, and the server gets permanently unaccessible, you could get eventually "kicked out".

Full version/license doesn't always help.  They have ways and that is what killed my Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 software.  At over $1K, it was a lot to spend for a hobby but I had a lot of baby videos to edit and wanted to make them well, so I got full feature version and with full license, phone activated with a key and all that.

Each time I swap disc or memory, it asked for reactivation.  I use the key code and all is well.

One day, it asked me to re-activate, probably acted on some date-driven parameter.  So, I reentered the key code.  This time, the same key code no longer work and force an on-line re-activation.  The on-line reactivation URL no longer function, the phone number no longer worked...  I called the main number... so on so on and each time they just suggest I should buy another full license for the latest version.  All my edited segment stored in the V1.5 format was lost.  I later found a way to use the "trial mode" to run the old version for a limited time to export.  By then, I totally lost my confidence and interest in Adobe products.

Another video package from a different company of the same era (Visual Communicator) ran into a similar but different issue.  One day, the fully licensed and activated software displays a "I am expired - reactivation required" message.  I followed the link, download the upgrade, paid for a new key code for the newer version (V2, if I recalled correctly).  Ok, the new install said it can't until after I delete V1 and say "click OK to delete".  So I did, and it begin the V2 install - one screen later, it said "it can't upgrade because I don't have an activated V1 on the system to upgrade"...  Again, phone call loop that went no where...  I ended up without a working version of V1 or V2.

I came to think of on-line activation as evil.

The last time I purchased a package requiring activation, I paid in full and then went on line to find a crack.  I have the full menu, the full set of DVD, but I run the cracked version instead.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: windsmurf on October 09, 2019, 07:33:07 pm
If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.

Welcome to EEVBLOG Forums, a Cloud-based service.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: dferyance on October 09, 2019, 07:38:30 pm
Quote
I know someone who tried to port their stuff away from just S3 due to escalating costs. Not as easy as it looks. Things like Redshift are even worse.

One particular challenge with AWS and other cloud services is they make it very easy and enticing to adopt more and more of their services. Projects often end up with ties to a large number of vendor-specific services. This is even worse with microservice architectures in that each microservice team will adopt whatever services they like. You no longer have the problem of being tied to a vendor-specific service, but that you are tied to all of the vendor-specific services. I've even seen the split where some teams were using GCP and some were AWS. So we were tied to all of multiple vendor's services.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 09, 2019, 07:39:42 pm
Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.
The problem is that the cost of cloud services is often delayed or hidden and you're up to your neck when you finally figure it out. The up front cost of traditional setups is what makes the cloud stuff look interesting.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Halcyon on October 09, 2019, 07:40:40 pm
If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.

Welcome to EEVBLOG Forums, a Cloud-based service.

Sure, however if the forum closed tomorrow, we can all go about our work and personal lives without a problem. It wouldn't have a "critical" impact on anyone. The internet is transient, hell even before the internet, BBSs would open up, close down etc...

Personally, for all things storage/backup/syncing, I use a completely self-hosted solution. Yes, it involves an initial cost in building servers and infrastructure, but even when the internet is out (which in Australia is transient itself thanks to the NBN), I have full and complete access to everything including the movies and TV shows I enjoy watching.

Once I upgrade the memory in one of my servers this weekend, I will be building my own "cloud" solution based on NextCloud (https://nextcloud.com) so I'll essentially have my own version of Google G-Suite except where I have complete control of the data.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: hendorog on October 09, 2019, 07:50:09 pm
Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.
The problem is that the cost of cloud services is often delayed or hidden and you're up to your neck when you finally figure it out. The up front cost of traditional setups is what makes the cloud stuff look interesting.

I agree people are caught out, and I have been once. But in general the information is there and just requires the effort of calculating it out.

The traditional stuff requires ongoing expenditure, and that is often overlooked too. And local services are more likely to suffer from resource contention.

Have you had to wait for IT to provision a development server? (Yes, months. In one company it needed to be planned a year ahead and even then it was delayed)
Had to wait for AWS to provision a development server? (Yes, at least 5 minutes)

There is no silver bullet. No news to anyone with common sense, but that means cloud services have their place. An unpopular opinion here of course. Maybe its the lead.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 09, 2019, 09:49:00 pm
But a professional application to be cloud and cloud only and need to call home every week or so to ? No thanks.

Btw, even worst, your OS.

For example Windows 10  -> Windows 10 users fume: Microsoft, where's our 'local account' option gone? (https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-users-fume-microsoft-wheres-our-local-account-option-gone/)  :palm:

Its starting and it seems like Microsoft is testing the ground of acceptance, slowly.

There is no way I will surrender the local admin account, this means only one thing, surrender your ownership, power and control over your own computer.

Its easy to imagine one day, you turned on your computer and suddenly your OS tells you that you are no longer can use your computer, access your files and all are locked, just because a dude which happened to be another country's leader said so.  :wtf: :rant:

Yeah I saw this crap coming when windows 8 started to do the "live account" crap.  That's around the time I switched to Linux.  I absolutely cannot fathom the idea of giving that much control of my computer to a 3rd party.  Unfortunately, the general public don't care, so that is really the direction things are going to go.  I bet next version of Windows will be completely cloud based.   Your login, everything, will be in the cloud.   Windows 10 is already basically a SAS model.  It may be installed locally, but MS has pretty much full control of it. 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 09, 2019, 10:38:55 pm
Unfortunately it seems everything is moving to cloud now and it will get harder and harder to resist.   Even things that arn't necessarily cloud based still require you to make an account and have the product tied to some cloud.  Game consoles for example are all like that now.   Even Gopros and DJI drones and lot of similar products.   Pisses me off, there's no technical reason for it to require that.  It's just done to track you.

The pendulum is swinging that way for now, but this has happened before. Mainframes and dumb terminals were all the rage at one point, then PCs got more powerful. It's not entirely unlikely that people will eventually rediscover the PC and all the benefits it has over cloud based.

Another thing to consider, computers and software as a whole are becoming mature, consider the latest version of MS Office vs the version from 25 years ago, a quarter century and yet for a huge majority of people Office '95 would probably do everything they need. Unless all these subscription products are able to keep finding new ways to stay ahead, the slow but steady march of FOSS tools continues to improve their quality. Today on my personal laptop I use LibreOffice even though I own a legal copy of MS Office simply because I couldn't be bothered to dig out my installation disc. I use KiCAD for developing PCBs, Inkscape for designing front panels and signs, GIMP for editing photos, Audacity for audio editing, and various other tools. All this free stuff is only getting better, in most cases one is not really forced to subscribe to cloud based offerings.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: daqq on October 10, 2019, 07:17:26 am
If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.

Welcome to EEVBLOG Forums, a Cloud-based service.
There's a bit of a difference - a forum, by definition, needs an internet connection (or a different connection to other computers) to exist. Also, it's hardly critical to our work. If Dave starts charging money for being here, or does something other that I'm not comfortable with I just bugger off. Or if he decides to end the forum, because reasons, well, sad, but been there, done that.

The other difference is that when I signed up I knew that this was a possibility. Same goes for google drive. Unlike eagle, which changed to subscription+cloud after, what, 30 years?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Brumby on October 10, 2019, 08:03:06 am
If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.

Welcome to EEVBLOG Forums, a Cloud-based service.

Sure, however if the forum closed tomorrow, we can all go about our work and personal lives without a problem. It wouldn't have a "critical" impact on anyone.

PRECISELY.  (If we discount the psychological impact...  :scared: )


Quote
Personally, for all things storage/backup/syncing, I use a completely self-hosted solution. Yes, it involves an initial cost in building servers and infrastructure, but even when the internet is out (which in Australia is transient itself thanks to the NBN), I have full and complete access to everything including the movies and TV shows I enjoy watching.

Once I upgrade the memory in one of my servers this weekend, I will be building my own "cloud" solution based on NextCloud (https://nextcloud.com) so I'll essentially have my own version of Google G-Suite except where I have complete control of the data.
In addition to your access to your data, there is a small matter of security from others accessing your data.  You are - quite literally - handing over your data to an entity that says "Trust me" ... and you have no physical control over that data.

I've gone out and acquired an old HP microserver and populated two bays to have that control.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: daqq on October 10, 2019, 08:32:34 am
Quote
You are - quite literally - handing over your data to an entity that says "Trust me" ... and you have no physical control over that data.
The solution to this is storing everything you need synced in a big encrypted archive :) If there's an entity out there desperate enough for my awful hacked together code that they'll brute force AES256, well, good for them. Yes, it's a bit of laziness on my part, but said data is not as sensitive.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 10, 2019, 09:12:27 am
Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.
The problem is that the cost of cloud services is often delayed or hidden and you're up to your neck when you finally figure it out. The up front cost of traditional setups is what makes the cloud stuff look interesting.

I agree people are caught out, and I have been once. But in general the information is there and just requires the effort of calculating it out.

The traditional stuff requires ongoing expenditure, and that is often overlooked too. And local services are more likely to suffer from resource contention.

Have you had to wait for IT to provision a development server? (Yes, months. In one company it needed to be planned a year ahead and even then it was delayed)
Had to wait for AWS to provision a development server? (Yes, at least 5 minutes)

There is no silver bullet. No news to anyone with common sense, but that means cloud services have their place. An unpopular opinion here of course. Maybe its the lead.  :popcorn:


Ahh the "AWS 5 minute myth", forgetting:

1. Security. Yeah lets just stick an RDP server on an EIP and leave it there for everyone on the Internet.
2. Patching. Yeah lets stick an unpatched AMI we found in the AWS rotten old shit store on our EC2 instance.
3. Availability. Yeah lets stick it in one AZ and watch it disappear one afternoon with all the ephemeral data because we don't understand AWS architecture leading to two days of downtime until the guy who set it all up comes back from holiday in a jungle with no phone reception.
4. Billing. Yeah lets roll out an instance we don't understand the costing of properly and get a nasty shock at the end of the billing cycle.
5. Latency and poor performance. Yeah lets find out the hard way that the thing lags like shit compared to in house hardware which doesn't share the cache and cores with a hacked AWS account running BTC mining.
6. Hidden IO problems. Yeah lets find out the hard way that AWS IOPS is provisioned differently depending on instance and storage size and actually a shitty old no brand SATA SSD in a desktop PC in the office has better IO throughput.
7. Exit. Yeah how do we get this turd out of AWS when the IT team tell us all the above was done wrong?

When you understand these, an AWS 5 minute job turns into a planning process.

The cloud is not a panacea; it's someone else's computer. The usual concerns are all still there just called different names and hiding under marketing.

Also who the fuck runs a dev server in 2019? What do you do on it. Last time I saw that it was a crazy company running their entire development team off an SMB share and using a physical wooden spoon as version control. You couldn't change the code, via windiff, unless you had the spoon.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: hendorog on October 10, 2019, 09:42:27 am
Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.
The problem is that the cost of cloud services is often delayed or hidden and you're up to your neck when you finally figure it out. The up front cost of traditional setups is what makes the cloud stuff look interesting.

I agree people are caught out, and I have been once. But in general the information is there and just requires the effort of calculating it out.

The traditional stuff requires ongoing expenditure, and that is often overlooked too. And local services are more likely to suffer from resource contention.

Have you had to wait for IT to provision a development server? (Yes, months. In one company it needed to be planned a year ahead and even then it was delayed)
Had to wait for AWS to provision a development server? (Yes, at least 5 minutes)

There is no silver bullet. No news to anyone with common sense, but that means cloud services have their place. An unpopular opinion here of course. Maybe its the lead.  :popcorn:


Ahh the "AWS 5 minute myth", forgetting:

1. Security. Yeah lets just stick an RDP server on an EIP and leave it there for everyone on the Internet.
2. Patching. Yeah lets stick an unpatched AMI we found in the AWS rotten old shit store on our EC2 instance.
3. Availability. Yeah lets stick it in one AZ and watch it disappear one afternoon with all the ephemeral data because we don't understand AWS architecture leading to two days of downtime until the guy who set it all up comes back from holiday in a jungle with no phone reception.
4. Billing. Yeah lets roll out an instance we don't understand the costing of properly and get a nasty shock at the end of the billing cycle.
5. Latency and poor performance. Yeah lets find out the hard way that the thing lags like shit compared to in house hardware which doesn't share the cache and cores with a hacked AWS account running BTC mining.
6. Hidden IO problems. Yeah lets find out the hard way that AWS IOPS is provisioned differently depending on instance and storage size and actually a shitty old no brand SATA SSD in a desktop PC in the office has better IO throughput.
7. Exit. Yeah how do we get this turd out of AWS when the IT team tell us all the above was done wrong?

When you understand these, an AWS 5 minute job turns into a planning process.

The cloud is not a panacea; it's someone else's computer. The usual concerns are all still there just called different names and hiding under marketing.

Also who the fuck runs a dev server in 2019? What do you do on it. Last time I saw that it was a crazy company running their entire development team off an SMB share and using a physical wooden spoon as version control. You couldn't change the code, via windiff, unless you had the spoon.

Good troll chap. If its not a troll then you need to broaden your thinking some. And read what I wrote, as you have misinterpreted it in an epic way.

Any sensible admin will know that they cannot plan for stuff they don't know about. Physical servers require advance planning. It gets worse if you put bloody minded managers in front of any request.
Any sensible developer will know they cannot move quickly if they need to give a different department a years warning to purchase servers and memory. So logically, you put admins and developers in the same team and benefit from both sets of experience and brains.

Your knee jerk reaction of "lets let anyone do anything" is not how it happens in the real world.

The 'IT team' are not there to tell developers what is right or wrong. Dev's and the admins are actually part of the same team, along with the business.

Sit down and have a serious think about how the a group could leverage the endless capacity of the cloud, while still satisfying the reasonable items in the issues you have listed above.


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 10, 2019, 09:57:46 am
I run real world companies in AWS and am AWS cert. I run my own company in AWS. My point is perfectly valid and it is exactly how a lot of companies operate that I have directly experienced.

Putting developers and admins in the same team I agree with. It's called devops. And I agree about capacity planning but your argument wasn't about capacity planning, which is a solved problem, but about bureaucracy and using AWS to leverage an advantage in that space.

The IT team, if not the business, are a service function of a business and usually poorly funded and invested in and seen as a parasitic annoyance. That's where all the problems start. The cloud isn't a solution there. You have to fix the perception and the humans first.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 10, 2019, 10:01:50 am
4. Billing. Yeah lets roll out an instance we don't understand the costing of properly and get a nasty shock at the end of the billing cycle.

Been there, done that!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 10, 2019, 10:17:48 am
Me too  :-DD

My first "free tier" AWS bill was $300 because I stepped slightly off the path :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on October 10, 2019, 11:31:44 am
As always, you have to figure out the pros and cons, and choose wisely. One benefit of cloud services is scalability as following example demonstrates: >:D
Sesame Street Store & Volusion customers are comprised; how the cookie monster is stealing credit card info.
https://blog.usejournal.com/sesame-street-volusion-customers-are-comprised-how-the-cookie-monster-is-stealing-cc-numbers-21eb51ec613b

Volusion uses Google's cloud to run over 6500 web shops. One hack and all shops are compromised.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 10, 2019, 01:22:02 pm
Yes, cloud services scale up very well when it comes to hacking. ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: hendorog on October 10, 2019, 06:35:38 pm
I run real world companies in AWS and am AWS cert. I run my own company in AWS. My point is perfectly valid and it is exactly how a lot of companies operate that I have directly experienced.

Putting developers and admins in the same team I agree with. It's called devops. And I agree about capacity planning but your argument wasn't about capacity planning, which is a solved problem, but about bureaucracy and using AWS to leverage an advantage in that space.

The IT team, if not the business, are a service function of a business and usually poorly funded and invested in and seen as a parasitic annoyance. That's where all the problems start. The cloud isn't a solution there. You have to fix the perception and the humans first.

It sounds like we are on the same page. You are right, I was bundling DevOps in with the cloud model. Its just a smart way to get it done.


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: wnorcott on October 10, 2019, 07:12:54 pm
And yet there still are people who are OK with eagle being moved to a subscription only system.  :palm:

I am grandfathered on an install-only version of Eagle and will be keeping that forever.  If my hard drive crashes, so be it.  That's what backups are for.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: wnorcott on October 10, 2019, 07:25:16 pm
Capitol One credit card company hosts their website on AWS and they got hacked by an Amazon insider, who managed to download personal and financial information of over 100 Million   Visa customers.   Think about that.   The fox is watching the chicken coop.

Lest you doubt the cloud merchants abuse their godlike powers, we are reading news stories daily that Alexa has Amazon employees on the other end eavesdropping on your private conversations inside your home.  Some even pay good money to have an Amazon doorbell that video records whoever is at your front door, so your visitors' comings and goings are on the cloud.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 10, 2019, 08:14:04 pm
Personally if I need to host something internet facing on someone else's server I rather keep it as raw as possible vs going with a "cloud" provider like AWS.  Ex: a dedicated box at OVH, Softlayer or other such company.   Ideally I'd love to host all that stuff at my house but ISPs always seem to have that archaic "no servers" rule.  Most also don't provide static IPs.  Without static IP you can't do DNS properly.  Using a 3rd party service like no-ip is a hack. 

I do hate that I have to rely on the 3rd party provider but as long as I stick with a basic setup nothing stops me from re-uploading my local/backup copy to another provider if I get the rug pulled from under me.  Also don't like "elastic pricing" schemes.  I want a predictable bill with no surprises.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 13, 2019, 01:24:40 pm
Ahh another reason not to rely on the cloud:

https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2019/10/adobe-will-cancel-all-subscriptions-in-venezuela-to-comply-with-us-sanctions/ (https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2019/10/adobe-will-cancel-all-subscriptions-in-venezuela-to-comply-with-us-sanctions/)

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-blocking-property-government-venezuela/ (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-blocking-property-government-venezuela/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 13, 2019, 01:52:25 pm
Ahh another reason not to rely on the cloud:

https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2019/10/adobe-will-cancel-all-subscriptions-in-venezuela-to-comply-with-us-sanctions/ (https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2019/10/adobe-will-cancel-all-subscriptions-in-venezuela-to-comply-with-us-sanctions/)

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-blocking-property-government-venezuela/ (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-blocking-property-government-venezuela/)
Did you read the thread start?  ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 13, 2019, 02:05:27 pm
Actually no!  :palm: 

I shall go and put the dunce hat on and sit in the corner :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: VK3DRB on October 14, 2019, 12:48:55 pm
Never been comfortable with cloud based software. Altium is going more to it, especially with Altium 20 and the online review process that can only work with a subscription. Good in a way because it makes the pirates pay, and Altium investors very rich (if they had bought shares in 2011). But bad in another way because Altium is overpriced for small businesses or occasional users. And over priced in that it still has bugs and you are paying for them to be fixed by suscrption. But hey, it would not be the Altium we have come to know and love it didnb't lock up occasionally or the that memory violation error (and the fragmented user interface) .

Another reason I don't like cloud based software, is you lack autonomy and to some extent freedom. The Chinese Communist Party could order their companies to block any users who do not worship the regime, from accessing cloud based software.

The third reason is cloud based software is open to hacking or DOS attacks.   

The fourth reason, is latency. Anyone who has had to endure Atlassian's Jira will know what I mean :=\.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 14, 2019, 01:17:49 pm
Ooooh yes JIRA cloud is just cancer.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 14, 2019, 02:11:24 pm
More cloud shenanigans https://github.com/TeamNewPipe/NewPipe/issues/2723
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 14, 2019, 03:42:12 pm
The whole base concept behind the "cloud" is to make software and data access a "commodity" such as water (or for most, electricity) distribution: make everyone depend on large-scale, official services, and even eventually forbid anyone to use "unauthorized" distribution channels, including your own. May very well happen someday with data.

Has it not worked for water in the long term? It unfortunately looks like it has. And I'm sure many people were very wary about water distribution at the time it began to be handled by states and later, private companies.

And the same arguments are provided: ease of access, safety... (before centralized distribution, water was very unsafe and a major vector of disease... we could argue the same now with data due to hacking, viruses, integrity, etc.)

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 14, 2019, 03:44:43 pm
Totally. There was an article posted a couple of days ago that I can't find now about "the death of files" and the migration of everything to "services". I still like my files. In fact I'm in the process of killing Apple Music at the moment slowly and methodically.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 14, 2019, 04:06:18 pm
There's only one form of water out there, same with electricity, it's the same stuff no matter who you buy it from. Software on the other hand comes in a huge variety and cloud based software cannot be relied on not to change in arbitrary ways. I avoid it as much as possible.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on October 14, 2019, 08:31:19 pm
More cloud shenanigans https://github.com/TeamNewPipe/NewPipe/issues/2723

Seems to be a hoax.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: VK3DRB on October 14, 2019, 11:07:54 pm
Totally. There was an article posted a couple of days ago that I can't find now about "the death of files" and the migration of everything to "services". I still like my files. In fact I'm in the process of killing Apple Music at the moment slowly and methodically.

I won't bother with Apple Music. No point. Apple's engineers and programmers lost the ability to design decent products long ago. It started with the iTunes. The cloud and local content failed due to a poor user interface sitting in front of bloatware. If they went total cloud-based, it would be a debacle. Now Apple fanboys with their white worms hanging out of their ears are discovering they have a battery life of about 2 years at best, and it is impossible to replace the battery.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 14, 2019, 11:54:17 pm
To be fair I just replaced the battery in a 6s  :-//. Took about five minutes. A blind monkey could do it.

The point is the software ecosystem is a ball and chain.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 15, 2019, 12:20:17 am
I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 15, 2019, 01:18:18 am
I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

Planned obsolescence - make things as fragile as possible, hard to replace wear parts (batteries, USB connectors, etc.), glass back as well as front just to ensure something breaks if dropped...   and of course, goad the majority into feeling important by replacing their phones every couple of years at a "reassuringly expensive" price...   The only place to be is a shareholder in that game!
 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 15, 2019, 02:00:11 am
I don't think they're deliberately planned to fail, I've had enough jobs at companies that made hardware to have seen that it's usually just a case of longevity/repairability simply not being one of the design criteria. In the case of the airpods I'd assume they are designed to be as compact as possible and waterproof, the cost of that is that the batteries are small and cannot be replaced. I wouldn't buy them but plenty of people do. *shrug* It's their money.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 15, 2019, 05:19:42 am
Now Apple fanboys with their white worms hanging out of their ears

 :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 15, 2019, 06:55:36 am
I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

You I wouldn’t but AirPods. Stupid idea. Disposable status symbols

https://youtu.be/o2IJaj3nUmU

I’ve got an XR and the screen is huge. Perfect for watching Netflix when you’re in the bath and using it as a sat nav. The notch isn’t a problem. It doesn’t obscure the content by default. It’s just used as a placeholder for the time and network and battery status. If you have banana fingers like me the extra screen estate is welcome. I really like the handset.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 15, 2019, 06:59:50 am
I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

Planned obsolescence - make things as fragile as possible, hard to replace wear parts (batteries, USB connectors, etc.), glass back as well as front just to ensure something breaks if dropped...   and of course, goad the majority into feeling important by replacing their phones every couple of years at a "reassuringly expensive" price...   The only place to be is a shareholder in that game!

Hardly. The batteries last an incredibly long amount of time, are replaceable. There are no USB connectors. Glass back you need for wireless charging and it’s not fragile. And if it is, meh AppleCare lol. I expect to get 18 months of life out of something like that. Well it turns out our oldest iPhone is 5 years old and still works  :-//.

People love to hate. Some of us love to just use the damn things and quit whining.

One thing that really gets me is a friend of mine who will never buy an iPhone because it’s too expensive but spends £700 a year on service for his Mercedes E class which is used to go to the supermarket and drop the kids off at school. Whiners. Whiners everywhere.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: VK3DRB on October 15, 2019, 07:39:31 am
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/apple-airpods-poor-design-hurts-our-wallets-and-the-environment-20191010-p52zj9.html (https://www.smh.com.au/technology/apple-airpods-poor-design-hurts-our-wallets-and-the-environment-20191010-p52zj9.html)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 15, 2019, 12:46:10 pm
I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

Planned obsolescence - make things as fragile as possible, hard to replace wear parts (batteries, USB connectors, etc.), glass back as well as front just to ensure something breaks if dropped...   and of course, goad the majority into feeling important by replacing their phones every couple of years at a "reassuringly expensive" price...   The only place to be is a shareholder in that game!

Hardly. The batteries last an incredibly long amount of time, are replaceable. There are no USB connectors. Glass back you need for wireless charging and it’s not fragile. And if it is, meh AppleCare lol. I expect to get 18 months of life out of something like that. Well it turns out our oldest iPhone is 5 years old and still works  :-//.

People love to hate. Some of us love to just use the damn things and quit whining.

One thing that really gets me is a friend of mine who will never buy an iPhone because it’s too expensive but spends £700 a year on service for his Mercedes E class which is used to go to the supermarket and drop the kids off at school. Whiners. Whiners everywhere.

I do get what you are saying and I'm not really knocking Apple specifically for this -  and yes, their support is excellent in my experience.  Samsung et al have also made it harder to replace batteries and other wear items in their latest phones. 

Batteries have a finite number of cycles that they can tolerate being recharged, they are a wear item like brake pads on a car.  For me, they generally last 2-3 years before performance becomes unacceptable, with a daily recharge - irrespective of the type of device (laptop, phone, pad, whatever).  I have working devices here that are approaching 10 years old, LOL, would not be possible if batteries couldn't be replaced.  This is an environmental issue as much as anything else - why throw out a perfectly working item because you can't replace its battery??

The one thing that does irritate me about Apple specifically is the "barrier" to get data in and out of their products onto non-Apple devices, although Dropbox has done a lot to alleviate that.  With Android devices, just plug them in a USB port to get data off/on them, clean them up, or whatever you need to do.  Apple...  not so easy, and I haven't found a workaround, so I don't use them for anything serious.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 15, 2019, 02:30:58 pm
I just pay Apple to replace them usually. I’ve done a few myself and they’re not hard. Did a 5s a couple of months back for £6 here. Still works as if it was new.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 15, 2019, 05:50:19 pm

Sadly, the repairability trend is down -  https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability (https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability)

Apple doesn't score too terribly, but not great.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 15, 2019, 05:59:07 pm
...
You I wouldn’t but AirPods. Stupid idea. Disposable status symbols
...

The disposable part is what made it a status symbol.  You see, to the buyer, it is to demonstrate to the world: I can afford to waste money, and up yours with the environment.  I will throw out as much electronic waste as I like because I work at (select: Google, FaceBook, Apple, etc...) and I have money to burn...

I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

Planned obsolescence - make things as fragile as possible, hard to replace wear parts (batteries, USB connectors, etc.), glass back as well as front just to ensure something breaks if dropped...   and of course, goad the majority into feeling important by replacing their phones every couple of years at a "reassuringly expensive" price...   The only place to be is a shareholder in that game!

Hardly. The batteries last an incredibly long amount of time, are replaceable. There are no USB connectors. Glass back you need for wireless charging and it’s not fragile. And if it is, meh AppleCare lol. I expect to get 18 months of life out of something like that. Well it turns out our oldest iPhone is 5 years old and still works  :-//.

People love to hate. Some of us love to just use the damn things and quit whining.

One thing that really gets me is a friend of mine who will never buy an iPhone because it’s too expensive but spends £700 a year on service for his Mercedes E class which is used to go to the supermarket and drop the kids off at school. Whiners. Whiners everywhere.

I don't know about others but I personally don't hate glass-back and other silly things.  I just think they are stupid.  You don't need a glass back for wireless charging.  EM wave should go through plastic just fine.   Moto 6 doesn't do wireless charging but it uses a glass back.  I might have been interested in one but for the glass back.

Battery "lasting a long time" is relative.  It depends on your usage profile and what you consider "working."  Some would consider it EOL (end of life) at 80% original capacity.  Personally, I consider it working as long as it suits my purpose be it 20% of original capacity or 10%.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 15, 2019, 06:04:22 pm
To be fair the disposable nature of electronics is simply due to lack of Environmental legislation. US and China are worst at that
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bson on October 15, 2019, 06:47:49 pm
Can't they use a VPN?
Adobe is prevented by law from doing business with the government of Venezuela or certain persons on a list maintained by the Secretary of the Treasury.  If those individuals or the government is suspected of using VPNs Adobe will blacklist all non-American VPN providers.  (American ones will be subject to the same laws.)  All non-American VPN providers will stop and think if the value of selling access to a bunch of criminals in Venezuela outweighs being blacklisted by just about every American business from Facebook and Google to Netflix is going to be worth it - because they will instantly lose 90% of their business if that happens.  If they run any sort of serious business they'll drop Venezuela like a hot potato as well.  Technically you can do business with individuals not on the sanctions list, but you know you're going to spend all your time shutting down shell fronts and there is a substantial risk that one day some media piece pops up pointing to you as facilitating crimes against humanity.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 15, 2019, 07:47:44 pm
Adobe is prevented by law from doing business with the government of Venezuela or certain persons on a list maintained by the Secretary of the Treasury.  If those individuals or the government is suspected of using VPNs Adobe will blacklist all non-American VPN providers.  (American ones will be subject to the same laws.)  All non-American VPN providers will stop and think if the value of selling access to a bunch of criminals in Venezuela outweighs being blacklisted by just about every American business from Facebook and Google to Netflix is going to be worth it - because they will instantly lose 90% of their business if that happens.  If they run any sort of serious business they'll drop Venezuela like a hot potato as well.  Technically you can do business with individuals not on the sanctions list, but you know you're going to spend all your time shutting down shell fronts and there is a substantial risk that one day some media piece pops up pointing to you as facilitating crimes against humanity.
That's a whole lot of ifs and assumptions.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: VK3DRB on October 16, 2019, 06:11:21 am
To be fair the disposable nature of electronics is simply due to lack of Environmental legislation. US and China are worst at that

Per capita, the Australia produces more e-waste than any other country on earth. I can dump whatever electronics I want in the rubbish bin and no-one gives a hoot. China won't take back e-waste from foreigners anymore. But China and the USA (and some others) hoard nuclear weapons which is a bigger environmental hazard than common e-waste. Yep maybe the final destination of software/hardware/firmware and everything else will be in the cloud.... a mushroom cloud.

The Germans, with the exception of rogue company Volkswagen, have the right idea with being environmentally responsible. They are way ahead of the game on recycling and leave the rest of us to shame. They got rid of all their nuclear power stations and are big adopters of solar energy. The EU might be a pain in the arse with RoHS and RED compliance, but in the end it does make environmental sense.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: sokoloff on October 16, 2019, 11:10:50 am
[The Germans]got rid of all their nuclear power stations and are big adopters of solar energy. The EU might be a pain in the arse with RoHS and RED compliance, but in the end it does make environmental sense.
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-g-n/germany.aspx (https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-g-n/germany.aspx) suggests that they still run 7 reactors and get 12% of electricity from them. Do you have a citation that that information is inaccurate?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 16, 2019, 01:24:49 pm
One issue with the Microsoft interpretation of the cloud thing is that performance took a huge step back. Browsing through web synced or web based folders and screens tends to woefully slow, something which was a solved problem just after the year 2000 when it was done locally. Office wants to call home while starting taking forever, browsing through a structure takes a few seconds for every click and things take the better part of an hour to sync in the backend. It's infuriating and causes endless few second delays in the workflow. Its 1998 all over again. That's not just a bad example either, it's the baseline standard.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 16, 2019, 01:28:40 pm
Totally agree there. Exchange sync is awful. It drove me to FastMail in the end.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 16, 2019, 01:53:02 pm
Yep. And for all that sucky slow stuff, you still need a 4GHz CPU with 32GB RAM and a fast SSD. :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 16, 2019, 06:38:37 pm
It is a real awakening to try out some old 90's and 00's applications on a modern computer -  they work SOO fast.  Sadly, all the hardware goodness that we have today has been totally taken over and mostly wasted by a lot of modern software.

The same effect is true with monitors...   today's GUI designers are not able to get more information on a 4K, 48 inch monitor than what was common on a VGA monitor in the 80's (i.e. 25 lines of text.   Try looking at an eBay search today, you get 3 or 4 search results per page...  compared to the 25 you would have seen in the 80's (if eBay had existed!) ).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 16, 2019, 07:06:16 pm
Agreed. And it's a complete illustration of Wirth's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law

It's almost inevitable though. (Note that I said "almost", hinting that there may still be some hope ::) )
Not a technical problem. Just an economic one. The need for constant growth implies that. It has two consequences here: the constant need for newer/better hardware obviously contributes to economic growth; and then this apparent "lazyness" of software developers, all linked to the cost reduction of development, also contributes to economic growth. And both are feeding one another. Even better.

An interesting thing is that it actually lowers the users' expectations, while getting them used to buying new hardware on a regular basis. A marvel for marketers: lowered expectations, and lowered defense against frenetic consumption.

So I don't think this tendency will ever change, unless our whole economic model changes as well.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 16, 2019, 07:07:20 pm
Ugh yes. Saw a 500 level deep Java stack trace today  :--
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 16, 2019, 11:42:52 pm
It is a real awakening to try out some old 90's and 00's applications on a modern computer -  they work SOO fast.  Sadly, all the hardware goodness that we have today has been totally taken over and mostly wasted by a lot of modern software.

The same effect is true with monitors...   today's GUI designers are not able to get more information on a 4K, 48 inch monitor than what was common on a VGA monitor in the 80's (i.e. 25 lines of text.   Try looking at an eBay search today, you get 3 or 4 search results per page...  compared to the 25 you would have seen in the 80's (if eBay had existed!) ).

Agreed. And it's a complete illustration of Wirth's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law
...
...
An interesting thing is that it actually lowers the users' expectations, while getting them used to buying new hardware on a regular basis. A marvel for marketers: lowered expectations, and lowered defense against frenetic consumption.

So I don't think this tendency will ever change, unless our whole economic model changes as well.


And, you probably could have displayed that 25 lines faster with a 300 baud modem then, as compare to today's 1gb broadband modem fully laden with HD resolution advertisements.  And of course each of those little ads would also need all sorts of micro-services application just to that little thing they needed done.

Pretty soon, programmers will be calling hosted micro service agents to do things like calculate the sales tax because the idea of having to look up tax rates and do fractional arithmetic are tasks too complex for mere college graduates.  These are tasks best done by specialist in a server-farm far far away.

So, now we are back to the future.  A computational world where we buy CPU cycles from CompuServe or IBM or whoever, and connect to it for service using terminals running software we don't own on CPU we don't own.

Well, at least we own our terminals, a nice shinny glass back smart phone... and, we no longer need an acoustic coupler to use the phone line for data.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 17, 2019, 09:09:52 am
Reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHZoMlK9gR4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHZoMlK9gR4)

Marketards run the world. Businesses control them. That's where the problem is.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 17, 2019, 03:10:15 pm

Well, at least we own our terminals, a nice shinny glass back smart phone... and, we no longer need an acoustic coupler to use the phone line for data.

How many of us actually own even that...   how many are on some kind of monthly paid plan?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 17, 2019, 05:59:49 pm
Most people.

And regular cash flow is what subscriptions and monthly payments are all about.

Most software is basically “done” now. So it’s the only way of creating a reliable income. No one wants to buy office 2019.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on October 17, 2019, 06:42:00 pm
Quote
So it’s the only way of creating a reliable income.

One could keep improving the product (either features or fixes, or maybe both) and if people want thos they'll keep buying. Or one could create a new product and have income from that as well.

Subscription is basically having your cake and then eating it continuously because the plate never empties. Where is the imperitive to Do Something to earn your dosh? The only thing you have to worry about is that your product doesn't become so bad that people are willing to break out of your walled garden to choose a competitor, which is very bad indeed usually.

For the end user, subscription is spawn of the devil. It is fair enough where you pay for an ongoing service (say, hosting) providing that service isn't there only to lock you in (no names, but it ends in 'soft'). Otherwise the end user is literally a slave to the vendor's whims and desires.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: sokoloff on October 17, 2019, 07:19:18 pm
There is an amount of money for which a consumer should be indifferent between buying software up-front and subscribing to it for a monthly fee.

If there a package that sells for $1000, most people should be quite happy to subscribe to it for $1/mo instead. (The primary reason you wouldn't is for long-term support and availability reasons or because you think the price will jump significantly.)

That same product for $10/mo is probably still an economic bargain for most.

If the product used to sell for $100 and now someone's trying to peddle it for $10/mo, the vast majority of prospective customers will obviously balk.

I don't see anything wrong with subscription business models inherently. The brain damage comes in when a company can't sell $500 software packages because that's in the no-man's land of "needs budget approval", but they can sell it for $49/mo, because $49 doesn't require any budget signoff and now you get software that didn't sell well at $500/forever selling well at $49/mo, driving more stupidity into the overall subscription pricing market.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on October 17, 2019, 07:46:31 pm
Quote
I don't see anything wrong with subscription business models inherently.

Nothing wrong at all if there is a choice. For businessses, it can make sense to rent rather than buy outright (as already detailed earlier in the thread). Personally, I've been stung by not having access to data from a decade ago only because the relevant app no long works (sometimes through lack of foresight (mea culpa) but also through a subscription expiring for maintenance on a lifetime license - that one hurt).

A subscription pretty much makes a mockery of any data archives you have, because at some point that subscription will stop for any number of reasons (some beyond the user's control).

Quote
or because you think the price will jump significantly

I think what is going to happen is that subscription software will be on a par with buying outright for a while. That is, the subscription price over three years being around the same as the outright price. Hard to argue with that (although I have offered a vendor five years subscription as a one-off price for a non-subscription license, and got turned down). Once most software is rented like this (and it will happen - as vendors see the turnover of the subscription-only vendors, they'll want a slice) then any relation to an outright price will be lost, because there won't be an outright price to compare against. And then $10/mnth will seem peanuts so it will creep up and creep up, and pretty soon we're paying far more in real terms than we'd ever have pain off-subscription.

Quote
The brain damage comes in when...

Undoubtedly that, yes. But also when one quibbles about a subscription and gets told "Well, it's only $1/mnth - not even half a cup of decent coffee". Sure, that might be, but add on on the other 'only $x/mnth' subscriptions and you can be spending half your salary like that. It's one way that people get into serious debt, and in this case you can't stop the subscription because then it's bye-bye to your data or livelihood or whatever.

I have strong feelings about this, in case you hadn't noticed  8)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 17, 2019, 09:10:59 pm
It is a real awakening to try out some old 90's and 00's applications on a modern computer -  they work SOO fast.  Sadly, all the hardware goodness that we have today has been totally taken over and mostly wasted by a lot of modern software.

The same effect is true with monitors...   today's GUI designers are not able to get more information on a 4K, 48 inch monitor than what was common on a VGA monitor in the 80's (i.e. 25 lines of text.   Try looking at an eBay search today, you get 3 or 4 search results per page...  compared to the 25 you would have seen in the 80's (if eBay had existed!) ).

So much this!!

It is a huge pet peeve of mine the way there is this arms race where monitor resolutions increase so UI designers just make everything bigger and add tons of white space and separation. I don't recall offhand what resolution the screen is on my employer issued Macbook Pro but we use Slack and with it shrunk as small as it will go it takes up a whopping 1/4 or so of the total screen real estate, it's absurd! I remember 15 years ago I could fit Windows Messenger in a little window down in the corner of a 1280x1024 display and it was completely usable. Low information density drives me nuts! The whole point of having a high resolution display is to fit lots of stuff on it.

The old software thing too, I still have Office 2003 which I still have installed on one machine, I find it much nicer than the more recent versions with that stupid ribbon interface, after years of being stuck with that on work computers I still have never grown to like it. I don't recall ever finding a feature I use that is not present in the 2003 version. It's no wonder they had to try to make Office subscription, there is less reason to upgrade software than ever, especially basic productivity tools.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 17, 2019, 11:28:10 pm
[...]  It's no wonder they had to try to make Office subscription, there is less reason to upgrade software than ever, especially basic productivity tools.

Now they've resorted to trying to scare people into upgrading for "Security" reasons...

IT is becoming / has become a commodity product.  The "IT fan boys" that experiment and learn lots of applications, graphic arts, programming, etc., are now a tiny minority. 

The mass adoption of IT by everyone and their grandmother means they just want to be able to  to do their everyday shopping and other errands online with as little confusion and hassle as possible.   So, we end up with massive whiteout on the whole monitor, with a single checkbox in the middle:  "Would you like fries with that?"

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 17, 2019, 11:56:12 pm
Now they've resorted to trying to scare people into upgrading for "Security" reasons...

IT is becoming / has become a commodity product.  The "IT fan boys" that experiment and learn lots of applications, graphic arts, programming, etc., are now a tiny minority. 

The mass adoption of IT by everyone and their grandmother means they just want to be able to  to do their everyday shopping and other errands online with as little confusion and hassle as possible.   So, we end up with massive whiteout on the whole monitor, with a single checkbox in the middle:  "Would you like fries with that?"
As there are veritable and independently discovered vulnerabilities in the software it's not "scaring".
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 18, 2019, 01:58:18 am

Well, at least we own our terminals, a nice shinny glass back smart phone... and, we no longer need an acoustic coupler to use the phone line for data.

How many of us actually own even that...   how many are on some kind of monthly paid plan?

You are right, I stand corrected.

Perhaps too many do not have the math skill to determine the cost of that "free" phone, and too many do not have the patience to save up for a phone and save some money.  I suppose that is the live-long punishment for not learning math.


Most people.

And regular cash flow is what subscriptions and monthly payments are all about.
...

I came across an article about a month ago that more and more sneakers and sweaters are purchased using installment payment.  There are so many that a simple search come up with "12 buy now and pay later shoes stores"  (I am not putting a link here to prove my assertion- I don't like the idea and I don't want to give them free advertisement.  If you don't believe me, do the search yourself.)

I suppose the idea of Personal Computer that one owns running software that one owns is indeed thing of the past.



Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 18, 2019, 03:55:17 am
I suppose the idea of Personal Computer that one owns running software that one owns is indeed thing of the past.

And in the future or even already happening (not sure), these so called Smart Medical Implants or IOT Body Implants thingy and similar stuffs, that are hooked up to the net/cloud, made me cringe and had goosebumps every time I think about it.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on October 18, 2019, 06:23:55 am
I suppose the idea of Personal Computer that one owns running software that one owns is indeed thing of the past.

Fortunately there's GNU/Linux and most commodity software has an opensource version...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: dferyance on October 18, 2019, 04:54:42 pm
Keep in mind too, there is plenty of "vintage" software that is perfectly fine. If you have a Mac you probably are SOL as Apple doesn't care about backwards compatibility, but wintel has been quite good on backwards compatibility. Probably the most difficult problem is the x64 mode not supporting 16 bit software issue. But dosbox is pretty good in most of these cases. I'm still amazed that today's PCs still essentially have an ISA bus. It's not a bunch of card slots like before but it is there.

I still run and use "vintage" software. For much of it, the original developer isn't even in business anymore. Just this week I was playing the game Spiritual Warfare that came out in 1992. It's great fun and doesn't matter that it is old.

The sad thing is that in 10-20 years people won't be running much of today's software as vintage software. Everything has a cloud connection that won't be supported or exist anymore. There is far less emphasis on backwards compatibility than what existed in the early days of PCs. And forget about phone apps, they won't be able to download their ads / send spying data on you or run much past a few years.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 18, 2019, 07:22:23 pm
I suppose the idea of Personal Computer that one owns running software that one owns is indeed thing of the past.

And in the future or even already happening (not sure), these so called Smart Medical Implants or IOT Body Implants thingy and similar stuffs, that are hooked up to the net/cloud, made me cringe and had goosebumps every time I think about it.

(USA Federal) Food & Drug Administration Safety Communication June 27, 2019
Certain Medtronic MiniMed Insulin Pumps Have Potential Cybersecurity Risks: FDA Safety Communication
"The FDA is warning patients and health care providers that certain Medtronic MiniMed™ insulin pumps have potential cybersecurity risks. Patients with diabetes using these models should switch their insulin pump to models that are better equipped to protect against these potential risks.

Medtronic is recalling the following affected MiniMed pumps and providing alternative insulin pumps to patients.
...
..."
Link to article: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/certain-medtronic-minimed-insulin-pumps-have-potential-cybersecurity-risks-fda-safety-communication (https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/certain-medtronic-minimed-insulin-pumps-have-potential-cybersecurity-risks-fda-safety-communication) 

That is one of the many reasons I am a strong believer that IoT is not advisable except in limited cases.  Oh, by the way, FDA recommends "do not share the Serial Number... ...".
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 18, 2019, 11:19:28 pm
Now they've resorted to trying to scare people into upgrading for "Security" reasons...

[...]
As there are veritable and independently discovered vulnerabilities in the software it's not "scaring".

Fair point, but are there any products, systems, services, or beings with no vulnerabilities?

We know our cars or front door locks are not 100% invulnerable to theft.  Yet we still use them - we accept a degree of imperfection.

Is it totally wrong to take the same approach with software, in the right circumstances?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 19, 2019, 12:57:55 am
Now they've resorted to trying to scare people into upgrading for "Security" reasons...

[...]
As there are veritable and independently discovered vulnerabilities in the software it's not "scaring".

Fair point, but are there any products, systems, services, or beings with no vulnerabilities?

We know our cars or front door locks are not 100% invulnerable to theft.  Yet we still use them - we accept a degree of imperfection.

Is it totally wrong to take the same approach with software, in the right circumstances?

Yes, because a thief has to be physically where your car or your front door is to try out different ways of picking your lock.  Being physically there exposed, the thief is taking a much higher risk of being caught.  With software thief (on any network connected machine), he/she can do that in the privacy of his/her home or somewhere with unsecured WiFi open to welcome or unwelcome guest.

The scale is also different.  Capital One, Sony, etc, the hecker just had to break into a database once, and she got millions of credit card and personal information records.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on October 19, 2019, 07:30:30 am
We know our cars or front door locks are not 100% invulnerable to theft.  Yet we still use them - we accept a degree of imperfection.

Is it totally wrong to take the same approach with software, in the right circumstances?

It is not wrong as long as the software is not connected to a network.
If the software is connected to a network, then yes, it is totally wrong (for the reasons already given by Rick Law).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 19, 2019, 09:08:38 am
Yes it’s about “attack surface”. The attack surface needs to be minimised and that is extremely difficult on cloud platforms even with proper architectural design. All it takes is one fuck up on an S3 bucket policy and you’re screwed. There is no isolation late r in front of that, no physical separation, even if you use the subnet endpoints only because the S3 API is exposed everywhere. You are instantly up shit creek.

Eventually as customers learn to fear this they pay for people, processes and software to manage this and then the cost savings shrivel up.

But most of the time, mid size enterprises actually cost more up front in “the cloud” on operational expenditure. It’s easier writing off a monthly credit card bill than a capital expenditure though. And this isn’t helped by the cloud proponents and sales folk constantly buzzing around like flies around shit selling the overall cost savings lie.

One comedy thing here I experienced recently is a £165k SQL server box that lasts 3 years costs £890k a year to run in AWS without any other infrastructure considered. There’s enough cash left over by not using AWS to fix the rest of the company’s problems but you know, death march...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: sokoloff on October 19, 2019, 11:34:02 am
Yes it’s about “attack surface”. The attack surface needs to be minimised and that is extremely difficult on cloud platforms even with proper architectural design. All it takes is one fuck up on an S3 bucket policy and you’re screwed. There is no isolation late r in front of that, no physical separation, even if you use the subnet endpoints only because the S3 API is exposed everywhere. You are instantly up shit creek.
AWS provided late last year an additional isolation layer to help customers from making that particular mistake (because it was a common one, as you observed). Sort of a set of suspenders to go with the technically OK, but sometimes misused, belt that was always there.
https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/amazon-s3-block-public-access-another-layer-of-protection-for-your-accounts-and-buckets/
Eventually as customers learn to fear this they pay for people, processes and software to manage this and then the cost savings shrivel up.

But most of the time, mid size enterprises actually cost more up front in “the cloud” on operational expenditure. It’s easier writing off a monthly credit card bill than a capital expenditure though. And this isn’t helped by the cloud proponents and sales folk constantly buzzing around like flies around shit selling the overall cost savings lie.
For my day job, we're in the cloud for development speed and agility, not cost savings. It costs slightly more in total, but I also know damn well that our dev teams can launch services to the public in days not months, no one has to negotiate queueing up to get their project delivered, and we've more or less eliminated the annual "scale up for next holiday" project that we used to start in Feb and run through September each year. Our monthly AWS bill has two commas and it's totally worth it.

For my own personal work, I also mostly host in AWS on my own nickel. Not having to think about a lot of the randoms ops tasks is freeing.
One comedy thing here I experienced recently is a £165k SQL server box that lasts 3 years costs £890k a year to run in AWS without any other infrastructure considered. There’s enough cash left over by not using AWS to fix the rest of the company’s problems but you know, death march...
I tried to find the comparison server you're talking about. I think you've chosen an example which is apples to watermelons by choosing a high-availability multi-AZ server (which your single box obviously is not) and by not contemplating/comparing the purchase of the AWS box as a reserved instance (which is financially analogous to buying your own 3 year hardware), and not counting any of the ping, power, cooling, security, and maintenance costs to run the on-prem server.

I have no AWS financial interests (other than owning mutual funds, so I own some Amazon shares indirectly). They are simply the best game in town in cloud computing and likely to remain that way for the next half-decade. If you're moving an existing operation into the cloud solely to save costs, you're probably going to be disappointed. How much could you possibly be saving over whatever you're doing that's already working? Why spend the effort, dollars, and risk to move something that works?

If you're going to the cloud for speed and agility, you're much more likely to achieve your goal.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 19, 2019, 11:53:02 am
Yes it’s about “attack surface”. The attack surface needs to be minimised and that is extremely difficult on cloud platforms even with proper architectural design. All it takes is one fuck up on an S3 bucket policy and you’re screwed. There is no isolation late r in front of that, no physical separation, even if you use the subnet endpoints only because the S3 API is exposed everywhere. You are instantly up shit creek.
AWS provided late last year an additional isolation layer to help customers from making that particular mistake (because it was a common one, as you observed). Sort of a set of suspenders to go with the technically OK, but sometimes misused, belt that was always there.
https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/amazon-s3-block-public-access-another-layer-of-protection-for-your-accounts-and-buckets/

Aware of that. However that's a simple soft control which depends both on (a) human competence and (b) amazon's competence and (c) that none of your AWS account infrastructure via IAM is compromised. It makes a mockery of layered security models.

Eventually as customers learn to fear this they pay for people, processes and software to manage this and then the cost savings shrivel up.

But most of the time, mid size enterprises actually cost more up front in “the cloud” on operational expenditure. It’s easier writing off a monthly credit card bill than a capital expenditure though. And this isn’t helped by the cloud proponents and sales folk constantly buzzing around like flies around shit selling the overall cost savings lie.
For my day job, we're in the cloud for development speed and agility, not cost savings. It costs slightly more in total, but I also know damn well that our dev teams can launch services to the public in days not months, no one has to negotiate queueing up to get their project delivered, and we've more or less eliminated the annual "scale up for next holiday" project that we used to start in Feb and run through September each year. Our monthly AWS bill has two commas and it's totally worth it.

For my own personal work, I also mostly host in AWS on my own nickel. Not having to think about a lot of the randoms ops tasks is freeing.

I'm using it for development agility as well. In fact I have built entire integration environments which quite happily fire themselves up using CloudFormation and then are destroyed. That's a great use case. But the issue is when it comes to production, there are almost always different security and performance requirements which are not cost effective to apply.

One comedy thing here I experienced recently is a £165k SQL server box that lasts 3 years costs £890k a year to run in AWS without any other infrastructure considered. There’s enough cash left over by not using AWS to fix the rest of the company’s problems but you know, death march...
I tried to find the comparison server you're talking about. I think you've chosen an example which is apples to watermelons by choosing a high-availability multi-AZ server (which your single box obviously is not) and by not contemplating/comparing the purchase of the AWS box as a reserved instance (which is financially analogous to buying your own 3 year hardware), and not counting any of the ping, power, cooling, security, and maintenance costs to run the on-prem server.

I have no AWS financial interests (other than owning mutual funds, so I own some Amazon shares indirectly). They are simply the best game in town in cloud computing and likely to remain that way for the next half-decade. If you're moving an existing operation into the cloud solely to save costs, you're probably going to be disappointed. How much could you possibly be saving over whatever you're doing that's already working? Why spend the effort, dollars, and risk to move something that works?

If you're going to the cloud for speed and agility, you're much more likely to achieve your goal.

Look at multi-AZ db.m5.24xlarge which is quite frankly shit. Reserved instance $954,720 pa. Over 3 years that's $2.864M.

Bear in mind: Please note that Reserved Instance prices don't cover storage or I/O costs. We priced up total at around $4.2M when you add that.

I can get a couple of rather cheaper mid-high end HP machines provisioned in two separate DCs as an active-passive cluster, with 10GBps inter-site link for half that TCO over 3 years all costs inclusive including the rack space/plumbing. They have a lot more RAM, they have a lot more storage bandwidth, lower storage latency with DAS Enterprise SSD. Transaction throughput is nearly 3x for half the cost. So I can now afford a DBA to look after it, pay for SQL Sentry etc so actual application performance gains can be made.

And then you have to consider where the consumer of the server is. AWS Direct Connect is not a whole load of fun to deal with.

I'm not going to even go into the hell that is debugging their black box services which do have bugs and do go wrong and the vendor's answer is "talk to AWS - they modified it and we dont support it" who aren't as good as people say they are even if you have enterprise support.

AWS can, to use the Scottish term, "get tae fuck".

Note I'm an AWS CSA and even I think it's a load of bollocks for a huge chunk of use cases.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: sokoloff on October 19, 2019, 12:28:13 pm
I suspect over beers that we'd agree a hell of a lot more than disagree...

The only remotely sane reason to run that large a SQL server in AWS is if you can't port your solution to be more cloud native, but you want to run the rest of your stuff in the cloud.
It's madness indeed to try to run that RDS server in AWS for the primary purpose to connect from your on-prem clients.
(I'd go the other way: keep your on prem large DB cathedral and use direct connect to connect your cloud services onto your on prem DB. If you're already setting up direct connect, definitely keep your large DBs on your side of the moat.)

Our Enterprise support experience has been occasionally marred by someone less than competent, but we've had generally quite good results on first contact and aren't shy about "OK, try again; give me someone who knows what they're doing this time!" on the relatively rare occasions when needed.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 19, 2019, 12:40:54 pm
Probably likely :)

I completely agree. The issue is primarily “how do you migrate on prem to AWS” which is stuff I’ve been doing for about five years and seen some hell holes. Migrate high latency services over to native AWS services. Easy enough. Move ancillaries over such as static content and message bus. Easy enough. Fire up direct connect. Easy enough. Migrate front end caches to cloud front. Easy enough. Migrate smaller data stores to RDS / elasicache. Ready enough. Migrate front end app servers over. Ooh things getting a little hairy. Lose 20ms due to direct connect routing latency. Now you’re paying for a DC cage with one legacy monolithic SQL server in it with 50TiB of data, 2000 tables and sprocs written 20 years ago you can’t move because RDS is to expensive, standard instances are too slow and native instances even more expensive than RDS. That’s when the paid up consultants usually disappear rapidly. Then company product marketing turns into “hybrid cloud”  :-DD

Really the issue is the workload isn’t cleanly siloed and before you migrate your 20 year old piece of crap to the cloud you need to rewrite it with a different architectural model but no one wants to pay for that.

I think that support approach works for a lot of companies. Not Microsoft though. They are useless. I usually shitpost somewhere if I need attention from them  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 19, 2019, 12:49:11 pm
That's not a rare problem though. The backend gets pushed to the cloud for all the usual sales pitch reasons so move the server and database there. Now there's latency the users complain about and the client software is balking because of it too. Move the clients to the cloud too to have application and database together and let the users connect remotely. Now there's licensing and integration issues with other software on top of different but similar performance issue. People are so busy drinking the Coolaid they forget more traditional setups simplify a lot of things to the point of problems never existing in the first place. The only point seems to create a potential to keep the market moving back and forth so people stay busy and paid.

I see bd139 posted almost exactly that as I was typing.  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 19, 2019, 12:56:17 pm
If you get ten SREs/architects/consultants/operations guys in a room they all tell this story so not surprised there was some overlap on our comments  :-DD. Whole industry is a giant cargo cult.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 19, 2019, 01:09:07 pm
In the financial industry, some firms require service providers to be 100% in control of (and responsible for) sensitive data - meaning, cloud computing is off limits for these kinds of use cases.

One thing I don't get is,  why is it so hard to catch some of the Internet crooks and make examples of them?  They have to be leaving "fingerprints" everywhere... (Heads on spikes along Tower Bridge in London sounds appropriate...  assuming we can get to them for all the pocket thieves etc. that like to hang out there and pluck the tourists).

Crime is a fact of life everywhere and there is no such thing as perfect security...   we are all dependent on luck, to some extent, every day.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 19, 2019, 05:28:12 pm
I still run and use "vintage" software. For much of it, the original developer isn't even in business anymore. Just this week I was playing the game Spiritual Warfare that came out in 1992. It's great fun and doesn't matter that it is old.

The sad thing is that in 10-20 years people won't be running much of today's software as vintage software. Everything has a cloud connection that won't be supported or exist anymore. There is far less emphasis on backwards compatibility than what existed in the early days of PCs. And forget about phone apps, they won't be able to download their ads / send spying data on you or run much past a few years.


I still use some DOS software written in the early 90s for the CE-232 computer interfaces I cloned and installed in a couple of my old scanner radios. It's text mode software that will run on a 8088 PC but it runs fine in DOSbox.

I have had that same thought, some day down the road a lot of people are going to be feeling nostalgic about all the mobile games and such they played when they were kids in the 2010s and most of that stuff is just going to be gone.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 19, 2019, 05:32:18 pm
One thing I don't get is,  why is it so hard to catch some of the Internet crooks and make examples of them?  They have to be leaving "fingerprints" everywhere... (Heads on spikes along Tower Bridge in London sounds appropriate...  assuming we can get to them for all the pocket thieves etc. that like to hang out there and pluck the tourists).


I'm sure what you'd see happen is they would catch some low hanging fruit, dumb kids that did something minor that could conceivably be called internet crime and throw the book at them, ruining their lives for no real gain. Even when I was in school there were some kids who got in a lot of trouble for "hacking", ie silly and largely harmless stuff like bypassing the password on the Macs to change the screen saver to say something naughty. Meanwhile the real crooks that pull off the big stuff are mostly in other countries and largely out of reach.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 19, 2019, 05:52:23 pm
One thing I don't get is,  why is it so hard to catch some of the Internet crooks and make examples of them?  They have to be leaving "fingerprints" everywhere... (Heads on spikes along Tower Bridge in London sounds appropriate...  assuming we can get to them for all the pocket thieves etc. that like to hang out there and pluck the tourists).


I'm sure what you'd see happen is they would catch some low hanging fruit, dumb kids that did something minor that could conceivably be called internet crime and throw the book at them, ruining their lives for no real gain. Even when I was in school there were some kids who got in a lot of trouble for "hacking", ie silly and largely harmless stuff like bypassing the password on the Macs to change the screen saver to say something naughty. Meanwhile the real crooks that pull off the big stuff are mostly in other countries and largely out of reach.

There is also one additional factor here:  To the companies/corporations, they have to assess the monetary value of loss vs the cost of securing from loss.

Credit card and stores are perfect examples.  Any store can fully secure itself from shoplifting. How much would that security cost vs up the price by 10% to cover "leakage".  The loss while significant or even life changing to affected individuals, but that loss to the company/corporation is but a drop in the ocean.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on October 19, 2019, 05:59:22 pm
Quote
they played when they were kids in the 2010s and most of that stuff is just going to be gone

Not helped by mega-corps deliberately trashing the stuff. An example is Paper Defense:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/paper-defense/9wzdncrdncdl?activetab=pivot:overviewtab (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/paper-defense/9wzdncrdncdl?activetab=pivot:overviewtab)

Used to be a great variation of Tower Defense, but if you were hoping to redownload it for nostalgia you'd be disappointed because Microsoft bought it just so they could make it available only for Windows 10. Got W7? Won't run. They won't even let you download it, but there is no technical reason for that, just that it's a way to push hold-outs onto W10. There are many other examples of previously freely available and OS-agnostic programs which Microsoft have been quietly snapping up just to make sure you can only use them if you have W10.

Not at all off-topic. Would you trust your cloud presense to that kind of company?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TerraHertz on October 23, 2019, 09:08:04 am
Interesting that the word 'games' only occurs once so far in this entire thread.  'Game' a few more times.

The topic of games being shifted to subscription model, made online only, and  'killed' at the publisher's whim, is like a mirror to this whole issue.
One person who focusses on this a lot is Ross, of Ross's Game Dungeon.

https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/dead-game-news/gaasfraud/ (https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/dead-game-news/gaasfraud/)
"Games as a service" is fraud.

https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/dead-game-news/dgnfrance/ (https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/dead-game-news/dgnfrance/)
Dead Game News: France vs. Valve + maybe the rest of the world

https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/rosss-game-dungeon/darkspore/?v=1 (https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/rosss-game-dungeon/darkspore/?v=1)

He has a whole series called 'dead game news' about games that have been deliberately killed by the publishers.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on October 23, 2019, 11:33:42 am
There are also several cases of DRM servers being shut down causing users to loose access to their movies and music they paid for. Caveat emptor! ;)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 23, 2019, 11:36:09 am
Another one:

https://medium.com/@hamed/github-blocked-my-account-and-they-think-im-developing-nuclear-weapons-e7e1fe62cb74 (https://medium.com/@hamed/github-blocked-my-account-and-they-think-im-developing-nuclear-weapons-e7e1fe62cb74)

This one catalogues the stupid handling of it as well.

Edit: aaand another one:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-22/gmail-hooked-us-on-free-storage-now-google-is-making-us-pay (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-22/gmail-hooked-us-on-free-storage-now-google-is-making-us-pay)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Bud on October 23, 2019, 11:37:58 am
Yahoo groupds are shutting down

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 23, 2019, 11:58:04 am

Bottom line -  cloud based services can't really be relied on long term as you are not in control of anything - you are a mere tenant and the landlord can evict at any time.

That said, there can be good reasons for renting facilities for shorter time frames,  or where the project / information is not super critical.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on October 23, 2019, 12:31:30 pm
...,  or where the project / information is not super critical.
..or not your data and money  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 23, 2019, 12:51:18 pm
...,  or where the project / information is not super critical.
..or not your data and money  :-DD

That's the only reason I am AWS cert  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on October 23, 2019, 01:49:24 pm
AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills For Moving Data: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/19/10/23/0517258/aws-customers-rack-up-hefty-bills-for-moving-data
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 23, 2019, 02:00:47 pm
Yahoo groupds are shutting down

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups)

Yep. Many users were actually seeing this coming for a couple years, and many have switched to a different platform (many have migrated to groups.io).

And of course you can't trust a private company to keep a service available forever. You can't trust it to itself exist forever either.

That doesn't mean in itself that the model is borked. That means that users should ALWAYS prepare for transitioning to something else. Problem with this is that this cloud model can't keep its (false from the start) promise that users would never have to worry about their data/software/... anymore once they use cloud services. This is just a plain LIE. Services shut down, get hacked, occasionally loose data... users should ALWAYS back up their data with several means and not just one. But yeah, this is exactly what those services claimed users wouldn't have to do anymore. Premium bullshit.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 23, 2019, 02:04:11 pm
Yep.

I got some funny looks today when I told people I back up github  :-DD. They be fools!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 23, 2019, 02:13:54 pm
I got some funny looks today when I told people I back up github  :-DD. They be fools!

Ahah, who cares... you'll be the one laughing when they lose their repos (or just the access to them) and potentially years of work.

That said, when working with github, you pretty much always have at least one local copy of the repos, and more often several if several people work on the same project. So even if you don't back that local copy up (which wouldn't be wise), you'd still have one or more copies if the service shuts down... you'd have to be extremely unlucky if you lost the github repos AND your local copies at the same time... (but yes Murphy likes good jokes! And for older projects you don't work on anymore, the probability raises significantly.)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 23, 2019, 02:21:18 pm
You'd be surprised how often carnage occurs there. 400 private github repos. Occasionally a guy leaves, forgets to push his local changes (which are at that point deployed because of the propensity of cowboys at this place) and then operations come along and hose his PC. So someone goes to fix something and finds that in github, the repo is empty and someone else has his pc :-DD.

All human related.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 23, 2019, 02:35:25 pm
Oh sure, but this last example is unfortunately a possible rationale for having everything online. Just force editors/IDEs as online services only, and there won't be a single local file anymore. Your scenario becomes impossible.

Of course then we're back to square one: a single point of failure with all your data on servers you have no control over.

Meanwhile, the big ones make huge benefits while we're running in circles. :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: andy2000 on October 23, 2019, 03:06:34 pm
Yahoo groupds are shutting down

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups)

I stopped using Yahoo groups years ago when they did a major redesign.  It may have looked more modern, but they made it almost unusable.  All of the groups I read eventually moved to other platforms due to this.

Am I the only one who still misses Deja News?  There was a lot of good information in old Usenet posts, particularly when I needed some information on an old piece of computer hardware.  If I needed DIP switch settings for a particular EGA video card, chances are there was a post from back when they were still new.  Deja News reined it when they tried to turn themselves into a shopping site, then Google bought them and it briefly became usable again. 

It didn't take long for Google to merge it with Google groups, and make it impossible to find anything.  I just did a search for my name on Google groups and if I sort by relevance, I get 9373 hits, if I change that to sort by date, I only get 5.  This plus infinite scrolling makes it impossible to find anything specific.  You used to be able to filter by date, newsgroup, and other options, and everything wasn't polluted with irrelevant Google groups content. 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 23, 2019, 03:27:09 pm
That was my experience as well, Yahoo Groups were great, I was an active member in several of them. Then the redesign made it completely unusable, the last one I tried to use was the local Freecycle group and after trying for some time to post something I gave up. I cannot fathom what they were thinking, unless their goal was actually to ruin it so thoroughly that they could shut it down. Absolutely nobody liked the change, within a few months every one of the groups I was in was all but dead.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on October 23, 2019, 03:29:43 pm
The problems that Facebook has encountered is a big headache that most companies don't want...  you can't just put up a forum and leave it unattended or up to the users to manage, any longer...   the risks of abuse are too high, and increasingly the focus of lawmakers (and lawyers  !).

This means it becomes more expensive to run these kinds of sites,  which in turn means companies choose to shut down the marginal ones (and delete all the data) rather than risk having to take responsibility for it.  (e.g. Yahoo Groups)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on October 23, 2019, 07:15:05 pm
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/microsoft_ebooks_death/ (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/microsoft_ebooks_death/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Bud on October 23, 2019, 08:04:09 pm
Yahoo groupds are shutting down

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups)

Yep. Many users were actually seeing this coming for a couple years, and many have switched to a different platform (many have migrated to groups.io).
....
Premium bullshit.
Ah, yes, groups.io and Premium bullshit. What do they have in common? Well, groups.io owners are politically motivated. They give you free Pemium plan if you support impichment of president Trump. Guess it is good news for those who do, but those who dont - be aware political bullshit may come down on you as a member of the service at some point and/or the groups.io owners may count you in when bragging "look how many people support the impichment". Possibilities are endless. Political shills are in the driver seat.  This may open a new trend in computer services. Create a platform, get people subscribe and start selling bulk access to the sheep to political clients. Indeed,  Premium bullshit.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 23, 2019, 08:21:56 pm
There's so much irony in that post it hurts.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 23, 2019, 08:39:27 pm
Wait for quantum cloud then. We ain't seen anything yet. All your data will be stored who knows where, churned who knows how by machines we don't have a fucking clue what they are actually doing.

Time for a beer I guess.
 :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 23, 2019, 08:48:06 pm
Sounds like Azure :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on October 23, 2019, 08:49:24 pm
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/microsoft_ebooks_death/ (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/microsoft_ebooks_death/)

No wonder...

I still remember a moment when I were comfortable sitting in a chair 35,000 feet above the ground and was planning to do something meaningful until Excel told :blah: -  want connect to a cloud regardless my offline Office subscription  :wtf:  :-//

Since then, MS Office is 'dead' for me  :horse:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on October 23, 2019, 09:10:21 pm
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/microsoft_ebooks_death/ (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/microsoft_ebooks_death/)

After the PlaysForSure and Zune debacles I'm baffled as to why anyone would invest in any Microsoft product or service involving purchased content. They are notorious for killing off products and platforms after a few years.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 23, 2019, 09:45:35 pm
After the PlaysForSure and Zune debacles I'm baffled as to why anyone would invest in any Microsoft product or service involving purchased content. They are notorious for killing off products and platforms after a few years.

Yep, and I'm waiting for the time they'll be killing off Windows.
 :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Bud on October 23, 2019, 09:54:49 pm
There's so much irony in that post it hurts.
Right, right. I am not surprised. It is so common these days for people to complain someone hurt their feelings. Why don't you take your pain to a bullshit social media of your choice?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 23, 2019, 10:25:02 pm
Right, right. I am not surprised. It is so common these days for people to complain someone hurt their feelings. Why don't you take your pain to a bullshit social media of your choice?
Yes, bd139 is known for his sensitive nature.  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 24, 2019, 08:21:49 am
Right on.

The point was that you can't go whining about political manipulation when the current situation was created through political manipulation. And it's not like I don't have any first hand experience of that as I worked for one of the companies doing it.

And the only people who whine about it outline their political orientation. Which you can track. There's the irony.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Canis Dirus Leidy on October 24, 2019, 11:17:24 am
Meanwhile, GitLab has made telemetry mandatory for users of its cloud hosting (https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitaly/issues/2113):
Quote
For GitLab.com users: as we roll out this update you will be prompted to accept our new Terms of Service. Until the new Terms are accepted access to the web interface and API will be blocked. So, for users who have integrations with our API this will cause a brief pause in service via our API until the terms have been accepted by signing in to the web interface.
Quote
GitLab.com (GitLab’s SaaS offering)and GitLab's proprietary Self-Managed packages (Starter, Premium, and Ultimate) will now include additional Javascript snippets (both open source and proprietary) that will interact with both GitLab and possibly third-party SaaS telemetry services (we will be using Pendo(https://www.pendo.io (https://www.pendo.io))).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 24, 2019, 11:44:37 am
So much for Gitlab being an alternative for Github. It seems they're holding people's work and even operations hostage until they agree with the new terms and conditions. So much for freely and willingly engaging in a contract.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 24, 2019, 12:03:49 pm
A way out: http://fossil-scm.org/ (http://fossil-scm.org/)

Fully distributed. Written by the dude who wrote SQLite.

This is what I use for personal projects. Way less footguns than git as well.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 24, 2019, 02:33:23 pm
I switched to gitlab the sec I found that M$ had bought github.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2019, 02:57:07 pm
A way out: http://fossil-scm.org/ (http://fossil-scm.org/)

Fully distributed. Written by the dude who wrote SQLite.

This is what I use for personal projects. Way less footguns than git as well.

Fossil is nice, but way more than just git. OTOH, it's just software. They are not offering any hosting, are they? (I may have missed it.)

The whole point of using github or gitlab is the hosting IMO, not the version control system. There are many VCS solutions out there...

And of course, for public access, you need a "cloud" service of some kind. No way around it. You can always host your own service (to control it), in which case it would probably not be called "cloud". But you get the point. In this thread, we have been discussing many use cases that can perfectly be fulfilled with purely local solutions. Using a "cloud" service when a purely local solution would work is just stupid IMO, yet increasingly common.

But when you need a shared/public access, you'll need servers.
At which point does a server or a bunch of servers start qualifying for being called "cloud"? Is it when the hosted data starts being shuffled around several servers without you knowing? (I guess this could be a simple definition of the "cloud", conveying the very idea that data is made remotely accessible, but from no definite/single point.)

I guess the whole key factor is whether you have full control over the service you're using/sharing, or whether you are OK with delegating the control to some third-party that often has completely different objectives from yours.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 24, 2019, 03:11:12 pm
You don't need a central control point for Fossil (or git) and don't need hosting. That's just an option.

People still haven't actually worked out DVCS platforms yet. Still stuck in the client-server mindset.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on October 24, 2019, 04:04:31 pm
http://fossil-scm.org/ (http://fossil-scm.org/)

Fully distributed.

Didn't know about it, looks interesting, thanks!   :-+

At a first look, an integrated wiki/doc and other tools like bug tracing looks very appealing, I always missed those with git.  Also, atomic commits sounds very appealing, too.

However, keeping all in some SQL database format instead of plain text makes me very reluctant, but I'll still give it a try.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 24, 2019, 06:51:44 pm
It’s SQLite underneath it. It’s in your browser, phones, television and computer already :)

https://sqlite.org/mostdeployed.html
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 24, 2019, 07:17:08 pm
https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2019, 07:38:47 pm
https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/

Incredible, although it was to be expected.

So are there absolutely no Windows license in Iran? Really? Wouldn't that be consistent?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 24, 2019, 07:49:43 pm
https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/

Incredible, although it was to be expected.

So are there absolutely no Windows license in Iran? Really? Wouldn't that be consistent?

Well, what I am waiting is for Microsoft's step on how they handle this on their Windows 10 ? Remote lock down ? Invalidate the license even legit ? Etc ?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 24, 2019, 08:10:59 pm
https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/

Quote
The impact of U.S. trade restrictions is trickling down to the developer community. GitHub,  the world’s largest host of source code, is preventing users in Iran, Syria, Crimea and potentially other sanctioned nations from accessing portions of the service, chief executive of the Microsoft-owned firm said.

Over the weekend, GitHub CEO Nat Friedman wrote on Twitter that like any other “company that does business in the US,” GitHub is required to comply with the U.S. export law. The confirmation comes months after work collaboration service Slack, too, enforced similar restrictions on its platform.

 :--  :box:  :palm:  |O
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2019, 08:37:31 pm
Wasn't github american before MS bought it?

Weren't there no sanction with any of those countries from 2008 to today?
So why would they have to comply just NOW?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on October 24, 2019, 08:41:18 pm
Wasn't github american before MS bought it?

Weren't there no sanction with any of those countries from 2008 to today?
So why would they have to comply just NOW?

Read the 1st post, probably the orange face dude enforces it just recently at all fronts, I guess.

Hint , President Executive Order 13884.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2019, 09:15:12 pm
Uh, yeah. The sanction against Venezuela is recent, but sanctions against Iran for instance, have existed for a long time. They tend to come and go depending on agreements and current administration, but there certainly have been sanctions against Iran before, and they were also fiercely enforced. Even many non-US companies had to ban all business with Iran, due to the nice extraterritoriality factor (for instance, a few years back, Peugeot lost a big chunk of its revenues due to a sudden ban of all sales in Iran). It's nothing new.

I guess github was just way under the radar until it got bought by MS. MS obviously can't be.

An interesting question is what is banned exactly, and what is considered business. Like, in the case of github: we could understand (well, in the presence of the ban) that github could not have customers in Iran. But what about the big fraction of github users that are NOT customers? I guess actually most github users are not actual customers - just users of a free service. I don't have the figures, but I'd be willing to bet that the customers are only a small fraction of all users. So is any "free" user considered a customer, and is using github, even if you never paid a penny to them, considered  doing business with github?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on October 26, 2019, 03:26:24 am
Whether Cloud works or not, The Pentagon is jumping in...  Hot news, just hours ago.

Article on Fox Business Network 10/25/2019: "Pentagon hands Microsoft $10B 'war cloud' deal, snubs Amazon"
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon (https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on October 26, 2019, 09:21:07 am
And Micron offers flash memory with cloud based security: http://investors.micron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/micron-introduces-industrys-first-silicon-based-security-service (http://investors.micron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/micron-introduces-industrys-first-silicon-based-security-service) :scared:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on October 26, 2019, 09:30:36 am
Thats a fine example of 2019 thinking. Don't find an existing problem and solve it improving the world in the process, but create a new problem and solve it and we all slip a little further down the road to hell.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 26, 2019, 09:45:02 am
Gitlab has postponed the telemetry plan after people made a ruckus about it.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/gitlab-backs-down-on-planned-telemetry-changes-forced-tracking/ (https://www.zdnet.com/article/gitlab-backs-down-on-planned-telemetry-changes-forced-tracking/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: DimitriP on October 26, 2019, 11:06:22 am
Whether Cloud works or not, The Pentagon is jumping in...  Hot news, just hours ago.

Article on Fox Business Network 10/25/2019: "Pentagon hands Microsoft $10B 'war cloud' deal, snubs Amazon"
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon (https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon)
Hopefully the password will be something other than Joshua.
and it might need another 10B to "fix it" after it rolls out.
By that time it will be time to upgrade it. Another few $B
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 26, 2019, 02:25:11 pm
Gitlab has postponed the telemetry plan after people made a ruckus about it.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/gitlab-backs-down-on-planned-telemetry-changes-forced-tracking/ (https://www.zdnet.com/article/gitlab-backs-down-on-planned-telemetry-changes-forced-tracking/)

Nice, but they'll do it eventually. They're just waiting for enough users to switch from github to gitlab. Once they are all trapped, they'll switch on the telemetry. ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Bassman59 on October 28, 2019, 05:54:19 pm
Whether Cloud works or not, The Pentagon is jumping in...  Hot news, just hours ago.

Article on Fox Business Network 10/25/2019: "Pentagon hands Microsoft $10B 'war cloud' deal, snubs Amazon"
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon (https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon)
Hopefully the password will be something other than Joshua.

HAHAHA!! We found the DVD of that movie for a few bucks and bought it. My son, who's 11, loves it. I showed him some web sites that discuss the IMSAI computer and the terminals. I don't think he quite gets how difficult it was to use computers back then.

I watch it and say, "HEY MATTHEW BRODERICK, that's Ally Sheedy there! Don't be a dumbass!"
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on October 28, 2019, 07:26:52 pm
Good news: https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-continues-digital-media-access-in-venezuela/
They got a license to continue offering services in Venezuela.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 29, 2019, 04:16:10 pm
Nice, but they'll do it eventually. They're just waiting for enough users to switch from github to gitlab. Once they are all trapped, they'll switch on the telemetry. ;D
Or they'll introduce it piecemeal or make some token changes to supposedly address the issues people have with the plan. That's why I used the word "postponed" instead of "cancelled". It's unlikely their motivation suddenly changes but the bad publicity is an issue.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on November 04, 2019, 10:00:16 pm
Stumbled across another example of Microsoft's malicious takedown of applications that work in W7:

http://code52.org/DownmarkerWPF/ (http://code52.org/DownmarkerWPF/)

Markdown editor thingy and you can see there are download links. The desktop download doesn't work any more (a *.windows.net URL, surprise) but the Microsoft store one does. Go there and at the bottom in the Addition Information section the release date is noted as 2012. That's a while back and you can bet your arse it worked on W7 and XP. Back up the top, System Requirements, only available for Windows 8. And no, you can't fool it.

OK, back to the original and take a look at the source links. Yes, the one to the desktop app works ;) There are also Nightly and Stable links, but try getting 'em :(

There is no technical reason why this isn't available for W7 any more. It is solely because Microsoft is going round scooping up W7 apps to deliberately kill them off in an attempt to force W10 as the only platform.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 04, 2019, 10:40:00 pm
So much for Gitlab being an alternative for Github. It seems they're holding people's work and even operations hostage until they agree with the new terms and conditions. So much for freely and willingly engaging in a contract.

Wait are people seriously putting their projects on sites like that without having any kind of local copy?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on November 04, 2019, 10:43:20 pm
Usually something needs to be centralised for access and build support.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on November 05, 2019, 12:08:11 am
So much for Gitlab being an alternative for Github. It seems they're holding people's work and even operations hostage until they agree with the new terms and conditions. So much for freely and willingly engaging in a contract.
Wait are people seriously putting their projects on sites like that without having any kind of local copy?
The local copy is only gone if you delete the git repository from your own hard drive. Remember git is a distributed versioning system. A local copy contains all the data by default (you can prune data by leaving out specific branches or deleting changes beyond a certain age). A remote git repository is nothing more than an image of what you have locally.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: rjp on November 05, 2019, 01:12:24 am
As a consumer I want the one off payment with permenant ownership model but as a producer I want a  stable income stream that manages the full life time of the product, including bug fixes and upgrades.

Ive happily moved many things to cloud based, you cant seriously manage a team based developement without it, depending on how much time you want to spend on systems admin and operating systems patching.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on November 05, 2019, 09:38:36 am
Regarding the last point, that's only because we have been trained to accept that by all the marketing from all the centralised services. Git wasn't even designed to work that way. The whole point of git was fully distributed development via patch distribution.

I actually know a company that does this properly.

Each dev pulls upstream from the product manager. The product manager pushes his repo to QA after he's integrated all the changes from the devs. Then QA push to distribution who actually do the final build and sign it. No one works in the same place.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on November 05, 2019, 11:03:21 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLyobOhtO4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLyobOhtO4)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 05, 2019, 03:21:10 pm
Obviously the more you delegate and the more vulnerable you can be, especially when you have no control over who you are delegating to, which is the case with online "cloud" services. If you are a paid customer, you may at least think you're entitled to some control as a customer, but if you read the license agreements carefully, you'll see you have basically none in most cases. Whether you're OK with that is up to you.

If you're using one of those services for practical reasons, you should always consider them as temporary, work storage IMO, and not permanent.

Many see those services as a way not to need any IT work in their company. This is fucked-up in several ways. The most important one is that whatever you do, there must be some people responsible for data integrity in a given company. Many things can be delegated to third parties, but responsibility is not one of them. Would you also have a virtual CEO in a cloud service while you're at it? |O

So yeah, someone has to be responsible. Of course they can still choose to delegate most of their work - but that's their responsibility. If something goes wrong, they will be accountable. Knowing that, anyone in that position and not doing anything to back up remote repositories on a regular basis must either be senseless, or they must not sleep very well at night.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on November 05, 2019, 10:41:15 pm
Quote
US mega-retailer Best Buy will switch off the "smart" portion of its Insignia-branded smart home gadgets this coming Wednesday,
rendering them just plain old dumb gear.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/05/best_buy_iot/ (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/05/best_buy_iot/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: DimitriP on November 05, 2019, 11:48:03 pm
Quote
Would you also have a virtual CEO in a cloud service while you're at it?
What? Those private jets need an excuse to be on the air!!!






Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2019, 11:50:52 pm
This is how I see any proprietary license (cloud-based or not).

(https://images.genius.com/2be9f5f775c0645c4ccf603fafc3794b.500x498x1.jpg)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: DimitriP on November 05, 2019, 11:55:02 pm
Quote
US mega-retailer Best Buy will switch off the "smart" portion of its Insignia-branded smart home gadgets this coming Wednesday,
rendering them just plain old dumb gear.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/05/best_buy_iot/ (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/05/best_buy_iot/)

In a way, thats great news..at least in the context of this thread.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 06, 2019, 12:08:35 am
This is how I see any proprietary license (cloud-based or not).
(...)

Except here, the devil is actually getting your money as well. You lose twice. ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 06, 2019, 01:11:12 am
This is how I see any proprietary license (cloud-based or not).

(https://images.genius.com/2be9f5f775c0645c4ccf603fafc3794b.500x498x1.jpg)
Proprietary and cloud are two rather different things.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on November 06, 2019, 07:54:30 am
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on November 06, 2019, 08:46:23 am
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//

Yes, I considered that. That's why, on my android phone
- I use a fake gmail account to register android & phone
- I never use it to check or read my real email
- I didn't install facebook or whatsapp (I use telegram)
- I don't use google maps, I use Osmand instead
- I disabled chrome and use Firefox instead
- wifi is always disabled (I have a 4G dataplan of 50GB and I'm never able to consume it)
- bluetooth is always disabled
- I don't use speech commands
By the way, it's a nexus. So, I only have to deal with google's shit, no preinstalled shit from samsung or other brands which is impossible to remove or disable.
If one day, a Linux phone arrives that runs Telegram ,Osmand and Firefox, I'll buy it immediately. They are the only applications I use on the road.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on November 06, 2019, 10:45:35 am
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//

Not only that, you don't actually own any of the apps you "buy" and install on it. 

For example, I have an Android tablet in the car used only for connecting to the car's CAN bus and looking at various performance parameters (engine temperature, manifold vacuum, etc.).   This tablet never gets connected to the Internet and should not need to.

Sadly...  what seems to happen is that if the tablet is disconnected from the Internet for several months, the app "times out"...   I get an error, "App not owned" (literally!).

To cure it, I have to take the tablet into the house, connect to the Internet, and let all the spyware contact the mother ship.  Then it will work again...  for another while.

Pathetic.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on November 06, 2019, 11:02:40 am
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//

Not only that, you don't actually own any of the apps you "buy" and install on it. 

For example, I have an Android tablet in the car used only for connecting to the car's CAN bus and looking at various performance parameters (engine temperature, manifold vacuum, etc.).   This tablet never gets connected to the Internet and should not need to.

Sadly...  what seems to happen is that if the tablet is disconnected from the Internet for several months, the app "times out"...   I get an error, "App not owned" (literally!).

To cure it, I have to take the tablet into the house, connect to the Internet, and let all the spyware contact the mother ship.  Then it will work again...  for another while.

Pathetic.

LOL  :-DD , as expected, hence I mentioned OS instead of app, as most apps these days are sort of selling "us" too as side income.

Just curious about that error message, was that came from the app, or the Android's system notification ?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on November 06, 2019, 11:08:18 am

Just curious about that error message, was that came from the app, or the Android's system notification ?

I'm not sure, actually.  I bought was graciously given permission to use the app in exchange for cash, from the Amazon app store.  The message is either coming from the app itself, or the Amazon store app (which is my primary suspect), or possibly Android itself - but it is an older version of Android (4.xx if I remember right) so perhaps it is less likely to be as bad as the later versions.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bsfeechannel on November 06, 2019, 07:51:17 pm
Proprietary and cloud are two rather different things.

But the devil is the same.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 06, 2019, 07:53:41 pm
But the devil is the same.
They don't appear to be.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 06, 2019, 11:26:33 pm
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//


I hate the current phone ecosystem because of how cloud tied it is. You don't really have full control of your device. It does not have to be the way it is, but it is.  The phone OSes are practically tied to the cloud and there's not much you can do.  You can't even start using a new one without tying it to an account that is tied to their service.  You can't install apps without their service, a lot of stuff you can't do without the cloud.   You can turn off a lot of the cloud based functionality if you want, but by default everything is being synced like your contacts etc.  There's no easy way around any of it.  Everything spies on you as well to make matters worse and all that spy stuff is built right into the OS.  The permission system is a false sense of security. I'm sure just because you turn off location services it does not mean the OS can't still use it and bypass it's own block.  Same with things that alert you if the mic has been accessed, the OS itself can bypass all of that.    The OSes are designed that way.  Both Apple and Android really. 

There is the Librem phone that is (I think) more stand alone and is not based on this whole concept and based around privacy.  Not sure how good it is though.   I do hope it takes off but either way I would love to see something equivalent to Linux, where you can just replace the entire OS on an existing phone.  I'm not talking about an android spin, but an actual alternate OS. Something that does not require you to sign in and tie it to Google or do any of that crap. 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bsfeechannel on November 07, 2019, 12:51:10 am
But the devil is the same.
They don't appear to be.

The devil has many guises.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on November 07, 2019, 08:03:23 am
Mostly Larry Ellison. So just stay away from that cloud  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 07, 2019, 03:23:31 pm
The "cloud" metaphor says it all anyway.

Clouds never last.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Bud on November 07, 2019, 03:54:28 pm
I was at a grossery store yesterday, paying for my purchases, and there was a guy a couple people  behind me in the line, having the speakerphone turned on on his phone for some reason, and i heard a women screaming on the other end of the call and some little kids crying, and the women frantically screaming "What is going on with this security system!?". The guy kind of tried to calm her down and said "we have to use the app to turn it off".   I thought to myself like  , yeah, i wish you guys luck with your security system.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on November 07, 2019, 04:15:13 pm
I was at a grossery store yesterday, paying for my purchases, and there was a guy a couple people  behind me in the line, having the speakerphone turned on on his phone for some reason, and i heard a women screaming on the other end of the call and some little kids crying, and the women frantically screaming "What is going on with this security system!?". The guy kind of tried to calm her down and said "we have to use the app to turn it off".   I thought to myself like  , yeah, i wish you guys luck with your security system.

Poor women screaming louder ... "G'DAMN IT !!! The app says we have not pay the due annual maintenance, and its disabled all access ... "  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on November 07, 2019, 04:34:14 pm
That's not a security system, that's a poo in an alarm costume :-DD

Good cloud related one I recently encountered. Too loose an IAM configuration allows trendy software to create its own security group rules and expose a 100% unsecured management port on the public internet so it can talk to itself  :palm:. It was there long enough for shodan.io to pick it up as well.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on November 09, 2019, 04:50:40 pm
Not completely the same but related:

Quote
A message appears on your TV: Netflix will no longer be available on this device

[Updated 11/8/19] Netflix has announced that due to technical limitations, as of December 2, 2019, the Netflix streaming service will no longer be
supported on several consumer electronics devices, including some from Samsung. This change will impact select 2010 and 2011 Samsung Smart
TV models that were sold in the U.S. and Canada. Affected devices will receive a notification reflecting this change.

https://www.samsung.com/us/support/troubleshooting/TSG01203568/?CID=afl-ecomm-cjn-cha-092118-52057&cjevent=4c0bfd9a026511ea8052014e0a180512 (https://www.samsung.com/us/support/troubleshooting/TSG01203568/?CID=afl-ecomm-cjn-cha-092118-52057&cjevent=4c0bfd9a026511ea8052014e0a180512)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on November 09, 2019, 05:57:54 pm
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 09, 2019, 07:03:17 pm
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
You're forced to support the industry though. Finding a decent spec television without the ill-supported smart part is pretty much impossible.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on November 09, 2019, 07:24:06 pm
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
You're forced to support the industry though. Finding a decent spec television without the ill-supported smart part is pretty much impossible.
But who needs a television nowadays? Most settop boxes have HDMI out so a PC style monitor will do just fine.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on November 09, 2019, 07:51:07 pm
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
You're forced to support the industry though. Finding a decent spec television without the ill-supported smart part is pretty much impossible.

Fortunately we can use smart TVs without any internet connection. But this may change and we might have to create a login for the manufacturer's cloud for maximizing profit via targeted ads.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on November 09, 2019, 07:57:17 pm
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
You're forced to support the industry though. Finding a decent spec television without the ill-supported smart part is pretty much impossible.
But who needs a television nowadays? Most settop boxes have HDMI out so a PC style monitor will do just fine.

Computer monitors are never made as big as TV, that alone does matter, e.g.: I want to sit lazily on my cozy big long sofa while watching "big" screen from a "distance" thats hanging on the wall.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 09, 2019, 08:04:30 pm
Computer monitors are never made as big as TV, that alone does matter, e.g.: I want to sit lazily on my cozy big long sofa while watching "big" screen from a "distance" thats hanging on the wall.

You can find monitors that are just as big as a TV set. They are unfortunately much more expensive!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on November 09, 2019, 08:06:12 pm
Computer monitors are never made as big as TV, that alone does matter, e.g.: I want to sit lazily on my cozy big long sofa while watching "big" screen from a "distance" thats hanging on the wall.

You can find monitors that are just as big as a TV set. They are unfortunately much more expensive!

Exactly my point, as not everyone has money growing tree in their garden.  :P
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 09, 2019, 09:02:55 pm
You can find monitors that are just as big as a TV set. They are unfortunately much more expensive!
I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on November 09, 2019, 09:06:57 pm
You can find monitors that are just as big as a TV set. They are unfortunately much more expensive!
I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors.
They exist. You could have Googled that yourself ofcourse.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 09, 2019, 09:37:49 pm
They exist. You could have Googled that yourself ofcourse.
I should have counted on some pedant chipping in.  :palm: Those are around the $4000 mark and effectively off the table. Let me supplement myself with the obvious. I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors available within reason.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on November 09, 2019, 09:49:36 pm
They exist. You could have Googled that yourself ofcourse.
I should have counted on some pedant chipping in.  :palm: Those are around the $4000 mark and effectively off the table. Let me supplement myself with the obvious. I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors available within reason.
Moving goalposts as usual. Like with any type of electronic equipment prices will go down rapidly. 49" TVs and monitors seems to be on par when it comes to price. Logical because the panels are not different.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 09, 2019, 11:22:40 pm
Moving goalposts as usual. Like with any type of electronic equipment prices will go down rapidly. 49" TVs and monitors seems to be on par when it comes to price. Logical because the panels are not different.
The Goalpost Moving Champion is trying to lecture me. Colour me unimpressed.  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 10, 2019, 05:58:39 am
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.

I hate that most TVs now are smart. This plague is moving to other things like fridges now too.  I don't want that crap.  Especially with the spying it comes with and I presume you're forced to tie it to some account before it even lets you use it.  Wish it was possible to buy just a regular TV.    My TV is old enough that it only has very basic smart features (reading from a USB stick etc) but not looking forward to when it needs to be replaced.

On similar note I hate that lot of misc products now days have an app.  The minute I see that what that tells me is that the product NEEDS this stupid app to work, and in 5-10 years from now will be unusable because they'll have stopped updating the app.  And of course, this app will require you to create an account and be tied to the cloud.  For example my DJI drone is like that.  You can sorta fly it without the app but you lose most of the functionality like being able to record video.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on November 10, 2019, 09:46:01 am
Most of the so called smart devices are dumb crap with smart crap strapped on the side. I reckon it’s possible to eviscerate the smart bits at some point. When that full size double smart fridge gets turfed for being software discontinued I’m going to be there to help dispose of it  8)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on November 10, 2019, 10:57:09 am
On similar note I hate that lot of misc products now days have an app.  The minute I see that what that tells me is that the product NEEDS this stupid app to work, and in 5-10 years from now will be unusable because they'll have stopped updating the app.  And of course, this app will require you to create an account and be tied to the cloud.  For example my DJI drone is like that.  You can sorta fly it without the app but you lose most of the functionality like being able to record video.

Cloud tethered stuff is another form of planned obsolescence.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on November 10, 2019, 11:39:30 pm
Monitors tend to be more expensive than smart TVs because the smart TVs are subsidized by the data they harvest. Anyone who actually connects a smart TV to the internet is a moron.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 10, 2019, 11:57:59 pm
Monitors tend to be more expensive than smart TVs because the smart TVs are subsidized by the data they harvest. Anyone who actually connects a smart TV to the internet is a moron.

Well, it's a question of market first - they sell A LOT more TV sets than huge monitors, so you have a large economy of scale, and then there is the acceptable price point, which is obviously not the same. But after that, sure the "added" functionalities are a trap. TV vendors make a lot of money out of all the extra services, just like with many other devices these days... I'm sure the mere fact they would ship the TVs with the Netflix app preinstalled makes them a significant amount of cash per sold TV...

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on November 11, 2019, 08:51:34 am

Watch out for the emergence of a market for "little black boxes" that make cloud tethered devices work by pretending to be whatever cloud service they need to work...

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on November 11, 2019, 09:04:39 am
Just curious, are there chip/IC companies have something similar ? That their product only can be used/developed/trouble-shooting and etc, using their proprietary tool/app that constantly need to be connected ? MCU ? Sensor ? Etc ?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 12, 2019, 07:21:21 am
Most of the so called smart devices are dumb crap with smart crap strapped on the side. I reckon it’s possible to eviscerate the smart bits at some point. When that full size double smart fridge gets turfed for being software discontinued I’m going to be there to help dispose of it  8)

Yeah I imagine for now it's probably not too hard to bypass all the smart stuff, replace everything with an MCU of choice and program it to do whatever it has to do (keep temperature of a fridge for example) and call it a day.  May need to replace certain sensors with ones you buy so you know how to interface with them as theirs could be proprietary with no datasheet available but that's about it.

Eventually though I think they will make it so the stuff is so integrated that it will be a practical rebuild of the entire appliance.  For example they might even use "smart relays" that have logic built in, or even "smart motors" with the logic built right in etc so you can't just replace the control board and keep the other parts in tact as you won't be able to control those parts.   They might even put some "safety" interlocks where if you try to open it it just disables the product for good.   If they get their way and make it illegal they could even get people arrested if it sends a signal out when you try to open it.  Basically they'd make it so when you buy the product you're only buying a license to use it and you're not allowed to open it.  John Deere already does this.     I hope I'm wrong, but I could see it get that way.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on November 12, 2019, 08:00:31 am
I’m hoping European warranty legislation will end that crap. It’s quite funny now when you take a 5 year old iPhone into Apple store and ask to exercise the Consumer Rights Act 2015. They actually deal with it. My sister got her iPhone 6 repaired last week.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 12, 2019, 08:35:02 pm
In the future, there may certainly be an increasing number of products that will REQUIRE an internet connection to function properly (with all the crap you can imagine that comes with it.)
That's already the case with most "IoT" products. Sure this is what they are about, but come on. Do you really need an internet connection to be able to read the temperature inside your house? Because those gadgets are often just bricks if they have no internet connection. This is ridiculous.

So yes, hopefully some basic legislation will prevent the "require" part. For how long, I don't know... because we already see this is tolerated for all the so-called IoT crap. If tomorrow, all the TV sets are qualified as IoT devices, we'll be fucked. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Halcyon on November 13, 2019, 01:43:41 am
They exist. You could have Googled that yourself ofcourse.
I should have counted on some pedant chipping in.  :palm: Those are around the $4000 mark and effectively off the table. Let me supplement myself with the obvious. I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors available within reason.

I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Black Phoenix on November 13, 2019, 06:15:45 am

I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.

Exactly, the so called Professional Displays:

https://www.samsung.com/hk_en/business/smart-signage/professional-displays/ (https://www.samsung.com/hk_en/business/smart-signage/professional-displays/)

https://pro.sony/en_HK/products/professional-displays (https://pro.sony/en_HK/products/professional-displays)

https://business.sharpusa.com/Professional-Displays (https://business.sharpusa.com/Professional-Displays)

https://www.philips.com/content/dam/b2c/category-pages/2017_USA_Range_Brochure.pdf (https://www.philips.com/content/dam/b2c/category-pages/2017_USA_Range_Brochure.pdf)

https://panasonic.net/cns/prodisplays/ (https://panasonic.net/cns/prodisplays/)

Of course they are not going to cost the same as most of the SmartTVs, probably 2x or 3x more, but they are better constructed and the panels are better (handpicked no defects, best levels and colour reproduction, the others that are less capable are used in consumer tvs and PC LCDs).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2019, 06:25:57 am
I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.
Most of those aren't OLED. LG has them but I don't think those are anywhere near the $2000 mark.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 13, 2019, 06:52:44 am

I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.

Exactly, the so called Professional Displays:

https://www.samsung.com/hk_en/business/smart-signage/professional-displays/ (https://www.samsung.com/hk_en/business/smart-signage/professional-displays/)

https://pro.sony/en_HK/products/professional-displays (https://pro.sony/en_HK/products/professional-displays)

https://business.sharpusa.com/Professional-Displays (https://business.sharpusa.com/Professional-Displays)

https://www.philips.com/content/dam/b2c/category-pages/2017_USA_Range_Brochure.pdf (https://www.philips.com/content/dam/b2c/category-pages/2017_USA_Range_Brochure.pdf)

https://panasonic.net/cns/prodisplays/ (https://panasonic.net/cns/prodisplays/)

Of course they are not going to cost the same as most of the SmartTVs, probably 2x or 3x more, but they are better constructed and the panels are better (handpicked no defects, best levels and colour reproduction, the others that are less capable are used in consumer tvs and PC LCDs).

Those are probably going to be hard to find for a consumer though especially outside of the states.  Lot of stuff geared at industrial/commercial use does not tend to be easily available in regular stores or websites.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Halcyon on November 13, 2019, 07:06:12 am
I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.
Most of those aren't OLED. LG has them but I don't think those are anywhere near the $2000 mark.

Sure, but you can go shopping around for what you need. You probably won't find many OLED commercial displays on the market due to the image retention/burn-in that they suffer. I'm just demonstrating that professional/commercial displays are plentiful and reasonably affordable. When I bought my TV/display for my living room, I shopped around for a commercial monitor instead of a traditional TV. I ended up settling with a Philips unit. Very few bells and whistles. All it needs to do is display an image and display it properly with high quality. It does that one job very well.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Black Phoenix on November 13, 2019, 07:06:25 am
Those are probably going to be hard to find for a consumer though especially outside of the states.  Lot of stuff geared at industrial/commercial use does not tend to be easily available in regular stores or websites.

True but this as you stated and right, are not equipments tailored to be sold to the common end consumer who wants to hook up a HDMI box and watch Netflix or have a Plex Streaming Server at home.

This are equipments suited for companies to be used in video walls for monitoring and for commerce Ad showing. And it interests to people like us, EE and ITs who have different needs. And most of us work in companies who had a sales department and for sure can try if you want to own one to the manufacture to sell one as a test with the chance to buy more in the future if it fulfils the need. That's how I bought most of the test equipment I own and also IT equipment, just calling out companies in name of the company I worked in the moment (of course with the authorization from the higher ups) or asking the sale department "friend" to ask for quotation in the resellers and manufactures who worked with.

That way you can get sometimes a healthy discount and even some times they provide with samples for you to test and if it's what you need you just need to ask how much will cost you to keep it, and normally that includes a minimum of 10% discount. My 289 was bought that way, my Zenbook was bought that way, my old workstation parts were bought with 20% discount on the final price because it was a reseller/distributor we worked a lot and had an account with for years...

If you really want one, and don't have the problem to pay a little more that the normal run of the mill TV sold on Walmart, you will find a way.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2019, 02:55:19 pm
Sure, but you can go shopping around for what you need. You probably won't find many OLED commercial displays on the market due to the image retention/burn-in that they suffer. I'm just demonstrating that professional/commercial displays are plentiful and reasonably affordable. When I bought my TV/display for my living room, I shopped around for a commercial monitor instead of a traditional TV. I ended up settling with a Philips unit. Very few bells and whistles. All it needs to do is display an image and display it properly with high quality. It does that one job very well.
I think the point was that enterprise screens or signage don't offer a proper substitute for the current smart TV offerings. You'll need to compromise on more than one quality to lose the cursed smart part. I wouldn't buy anything not OLED for example. The technology is there and good enough.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2019, 02:57:32 pm
True but this as you stated and right, are not equipments tailored to be sold to the common end consumer who wants to hook up a HDMI box and watch Netflix or have a Plex Streaming Server at home.

This are equipments suited for companies to be used in video walls for monitoring and for commerce Ad showing. And it interests to people like us, EE and ITs who have different needs. And most of us work in companies who had a sales department and for sure can try if you want to own one to the manufacture to sell one as a test with the chance to buy more in the future if it fulfils the need. That's how I bought most of the test equipment I own and also IT equipment, just calling out companies in name of the company I worked in the moment (of course with the authorization from the higher ups) or asking the sale department "friend" to ask for quotation in the resellers and manufactures who worked with.

That way you can get sometimes a healthy discount and even some times they provide with samples for you to test and if it's what you need you just need to ask how much will cost you to keep it, and normally that includes a minimum of 10% discount. My 289 was bought that way, my Zenbook was bought that way, my old workstation parts were bought with 20% discount on the final price because it was a reseller/distributor we worked a lot and had an account with for years...

If you really want one, and don't have the problem to pay a little more that the normal run of the mill TV sold on Walmart, you will find a way.
Buying personal items at a discount from an existing business relation is getting into murky territory. Many companies have rules against this and in some sectors it's straight up outlawed.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 13, 2019, 04:45:41 pm
True but this as you stated and right, are not equipments tailored to be sold to the common end consumer who wants to hook up a HDMI box and watch Netflix or have a Plex Streaming Server at home.

This are equipments suited for companies to be used in video walls for monitoring and for commerce Ad showing. And it interests to people like us, EE and ITs who have different needs. And most of us work in companies who had a sales department and for sure can try if you want to own one to the manufacture to sell one as a test with the chance to buy more in the future if it fulfils the need. That's how I bought most of the test equipment I own and also IT equipment, just calling out companies in name of the company I worked in the moment (of course with the authorization from the higher ups) or asking the sale department "friend" to ask for quotation in the resellers and manufactures who worked with.

That way you can get sometimes a healthy discount and even some times they provide with samples for you to test and if it's what you need you just need to ask how much will cost you to keep it, and normally that includes a minimum of 10% discount. My 289 was bought that way, my Zenbook was bought that way, my old workstation parts were bought with 20% discount on the final price because it was a reseller/distributor we worked a lot and had an account with for years...

If you really want one, and don't have the problem to pay a little more that the normal run of the mill TV sold on Walmart, you will find a way.
Buying personal items at a discount from an existing business relation is getting into murky territory. Many companies have rules against this and in some sectors it's straight up outlawed.

Yeah even without a discount most companies will not let employees buy stuff through the company for personal use.  They usually have policies against that.  Even stuff that's being discarded is often not allowed to go to employees.  Sometimes it is, but it tends to be a really gray area and be hush hush.

Would be nice if sellers of this sort of thing just had a shopping cart interface like any other site though.  It's not that hard to setup, even if they only sell a few to consumers, it does not cost anything extra to make it available.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: CatalinaWOW on November 13, 2019, 04:54:21 pm
True but this as you stated and right, are not equipments tailored to be sold to the common end consumer who wants to hook up a HDMI box and watch Netflix or have a Plex Streaming Server at home.

This are equipments suited for companies to be used in video walls for monitoring and for commerce Ad showing. And it interests to people like us, EE and ITs who have different needs. And most of us work in companies who had a sales department and for sure can try if you want to own one to the manufacture to sell one as a test with the chance to buy more in the future if it fulfils the need. That's how I bought most of the test equipment I own and also IT equipment, just calling out companies in name of the company I worked in the moment (of course with the authorization from the higher ups) or asking the sale department "friend" to ask for quotation in the resellers and manufactures who worked with.

That way you can get sometimes a healthy discount and even some times they provide with samples for you to test and if it's what you need you just need to ask how much will cost you to keep it, and normally that includes a minimum of 10% discount. My 289 was bought that way, my Zenbook was bought that way, my old workstation parts were bought with 20% discount on the final price because it was a reseller/distributor we worked a lot and had an account with for years...

If you really want one, and don't have the problem to pay a little more that the normal run of the mill TV sold on Walmart, you will find a way.
Buying personal items at a discount from an existing business relation is getting into murky territory. Many companies have rules against this and in some sectors it's straight up outlawed.

Yeah even without a discount most companies will not let employees buy stuff through the company for personal use.  They usually have policies against that.  Even stuff that's being discarded is often not allowed to go to employees.  Sometimes it is, but it tends to be a really gray area and be hush hush.

Would be nice if sellers of this sort of thing just had a shopping cart interface like any other site though.  It's not that hard to setup, even if they only sell a few to consumers, it does not cost anything extra to make it available.

I think this depends a lot on local tax laws and the like.  I worked for a company that actually encouraged employees to book personal travel through the company and get the corporate discount on airfare, rental cars and lodging.  The logic was that their discount was based on volume and additional volume reduced their costs.  From a legal and ethical standpoint it isn't different than the employee discount offered by many companies.

This could be very different if the corporate channel avoided sales or VAT taxes, or if the corporate channel specifically had different warranty and support provisions than the consumer channel goods.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2019, 04:57:13 pm
Yeah even without a discount most companies will not let employees buy stuff through the company for personal use.  They usually have policies against that.  Even stuff that's being discarded is often not allowed to go to employees.  Sometimes it is, but it tends to be a really gray area and be hush hush.

Would be nice if sellers of this sort of thing just had a shopping cart interface like any other site though.  It's not that hard to setup, even if they only sell a few to consumers, it does not cost anything extra to make it available.
The discount is an issue. Giving you personal perks may influence or cloud your judgement when ordering for the company or when choosing between competitors. The definition of bribery is "the act of giving or receiving something of value in exchange for some kind of influence or action in return". You don't want any doubt about your motives. As mentioned before these things are explicitly banned or regulated in some sectors for exactly those reasons.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on November 13, 2019, 05:21:16 pm
Quote
Even stuff that's being discarded is often not allowed to go to employees.

The main reason for that (it's a biggy in retail) is because your employees start deliebrately wasting stuff so it's discarded and they get it cheap, or taking care of the cardboard packaging (so they can snaffle it) instead of just ripping it off and getting the job done quick. It's also simpler all around if you don't exclude edge cases, hence this sort of rule sometimes applies where it perhaps logically wouldn't.


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 13, 2019, 06:51:16 pm
I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.
Most of those aren't OLED. LG has them but I don't think those are anywhere near the $2000 mark.

Large OLED panels are still hugely expensive. Smart crap included or not, a typical and worthwhile 55" OLED TV set is currently more around $3000. You can currently find ones at $2000 or so (LG for instance), but those are the really bottom-end of the OLED series and I've read many bad reviews about those.

Now if you're fine with a 4K LCD IPS panel, there's currently the ACER EB550K, a 4K, 55" LCD IPS panel as a raw monitor, that can be had for about 900€ currently. Sure you can find TV sets with similar panels (although usually not IPS nor as fast, this one is 4ms) for less than that, but not by a huge margin either.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2019, 07:09:34 pm
Large OLED panels are still hugely expensive. Smart crap included or not, a typical and worthwhile 55" OLED TV set is currently more around $3000. You can currently find ones at $2000 or so (LG for instance), but those are the really bottom-end of the OLED series and I've read many bad reviews about those.

Now if you're fine with a 4K LCD IPS panel, there's currently the ACER EB550K, a 4K, 55" LCD IPS panel as a raw monitor, that can be had for about 900€ currently. Sure you can find TV sets with similar panels (although usually not IPS nor as fast, this one is 4ms) for less than that, but not by a huge margin either.
The LG OLED screens are quite popular as they provide great value for money. LG has pretty much dominated the OLED market from the start. The price can vary quite a bit but should be somewhere between the 1K and 2K mark. Can be closer to 1K if you look carefully.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Halcyon on November 13, 2019, 09:38:35 pm
Sure, but you can go shopping around for what you need. You probably won't find many OLED commercial displays on the market due to the image retention/burn-in that they suffer. I'm just demonstrating that professional/commercial displays are plentiful and reasonably affordable. When I bought my TV/display for my living room, I shopped around for a commercial monitor instead of a traditional TV. I ended up settling with a Philips unit. Very few bells and whistles. All it needs to do is display an image and display it properly with high quality. It does that one job very well.
I think the point was that enterprise screens or signage don't offer a proper substitute for the current smart TV offerings. You'll need to compromise on more than one quality to lose the cursed smart part. I wouldn't buy anything not OLED for example. The technology is there and good enough.

That comes down to your personal preference and what you're after. In some ways you're compromising on quality or features by buying consumer-grade. For example, most consumer models won't come with RS-232 or Ethernet control (increasingly important for home automation/home theatre set ups). Personally, I deliberately wanted a non-OLED display with non-smart features, to me, that wasn't a compromise at all (quite the opposite in fact). As with most things, you get what you pay for.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2019, 10:40:42 pm
That comes down to your personal preference and what you're after. In some ways you're compromising on quality or features by buying consumer-grade. For example, most consumer models won't come with RS-232 or Ethernet control (increasingly important for home automation/home theatre set ups). Personally, I deliberately wanted a non-OLED display with non-smart features, to me, that wasn't a compromise at all (quite the opposite in fact). As with most things, you get what you pay for.
I'm all for enterprise grade but combining that with OLED and somewhat affordable doesn't currently seem attainable. Being stuck with outdated technology that never was great doesn't seem appealing either.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on January 14, 2020, 01:01:54 am
Yet another fine example ...

-> Spectrum Kills Home Security Business, Refuses Refunds for Owners of Now-Worthless Equipment (https://gizmodo.com/spectrum-kills-home-security-business-refuses-refunds-1840931761)

Just worry if the abandoned devices, posed a security risks for unawared owners.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on January 14, 2020, 02:17:36 pm
Yet another fine example ...

-> Spectrum Kills Home Security Business, Refuses Refunds for Owners of Now-Worthless Equipment (https://gizmodo.com/spectrum-kills-home-security-business-refuses-refunds-1840931761)

Just worry if the abandoned devices, posed a security risks for unawared owners.
I love how their solution is essentially having the customer dig himself into another third part dependent hole.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 14, 2020, 03:04:18 pm
Probably got a cash backhander for that advice. I know a company that bought a competitor and just closed them down instantly just so they could move the customers over to their inferior product to milk them. They also charged them an expensive migration fee.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Rick Law on January 14, 2020, 10:30:32 pm
Not completely the same but related:

Quote
A message appears on your TV: Netflix will no longer be available on this device

[Updated 11/8/19] Netflix has announced that due to technical limitations, as of December 2, 2019, the Netflix streaming service will no longer be
supported on several consumer electronics devices, including some from Samsung. This change will impact select 2010 and 2011 Samsung Smart
TV models that were sold in the U.S. and Canada. Affected devices will receive a notification reflecting this change.

https://www.samsung.com/us/support/troubleshooting/TSG01203568/?CID=afl-ecomm-cjn-cha-092118-52057&cjevent=4c0bfd9a026511ea8052014e0a180512 (https://www.samsung.com/us/support/troubleshooting/TSG01203568/?CID=afl-ecomm-cjn-cha-092118-52057&cjevent=4c0bfd9a026511ea8052014e0a180512)

My WD-TV set-top box was one of the affected.

I have been waiting for a reason to cut Netflix anyhow - don't like them, they are too political.  So I was glad to cut them out.  Youtube long since cut support for that.  Now the only job it does is for DVD on ISO, and an old version ofTuneIn which has ads other than whatever the radio station put out - I rather like that.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 14, 2020, 11:20:37 pm
Sony did that to me years ago. YouTube went. Now I just steal all my content.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Halcyon on January 15, 2020, 02:00:49 am
Now I just steal all my content.

Copyright infringement doesn't amount to stealing/larceny (according to Australian courts). It's a civil matter between you and the content creators.  :-+
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 15, 2020, 07:05:15 am
That’s good to hear. Getting quite litigious here. The media companies are tracking peer IP addresses on torrents these days and contacting the ISPs who send you an email. Three strikes policy apparently.

This was enough that modify my behaviour slightly. Good job there  are so many third party streaming services though that you just hit one and it’s TLS end to end and various browser plugins to pull the raw stream :-// meh. There are some advantages to the cloud after all  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on January 15, 2020, 07:30:00 am
cough...vpn...cough
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 15, 2020, 07:31:43 am
VPN isn’t really a solution. They’re all shonky as fuck and run by morons. Also your behaviour on the end of it betrays you (cookies etc)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on January 15, 2020, 08:27:58 am
Yep, don't be too complacent with VPN, just because the provider "claimed" they won't betray their customer.

Essentially the provider says ... "Trust us, because we said so ...".
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 15, 2020, 09:19:03 am
VPN providers have to pay for traffic and transit which means it's expensive to run a VPN service. They are a race to the bottom industry at the same time so every cost cut and corner is cut. That leads to shitballs such as NordVPN who:

Get hacked and sat on it for months: https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/21/nordvpn-confirms-it-was-hacked/

Use dubious and unethical endpoints for traffic exits: https://medium.com/@derek./how-is-nordvpn-unblocking-disney-6c51045dbc30

Fucking nightmare companies.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: ebastler on January 15, 2020, 09:23:19 am
Sony did that to me years ago. YouTube went. Now I just steal all my content.

Where do you steal your Youtube content?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 15, 2020, 09:45:49 am
https://youtube-dl.org/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: rdl on January 15, 2020, 10:12:45 am
They've been doing that here for a long time now. The three strikes rule has been in place for years. I got my first claim of infringement in 2014.  I switched to a proxy service in 2015 just for torrents and haven't had a claim since.


That’s good to hear. Getting quite litigious here. The media companies are tracking peer IP addresses on torrents these days and contacting the ISPs who send you an email. Three strikes policy apparently.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on January 20, 2020, 07:39:47 pm
VPN isn’t really a solution. They’re all shonky as fuck and run by morons. Also your behaviour on the end of it betrays you (cookies etc)

There's always the option of using VM's for specific purposes and avoiding any cross-pollination between them. You can have a VM that you *only* use for accessing a specific website for example.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 20, 2020, 10:51:58 pm
VPN isn’t really a solution. They’re all shonky as fuck and run by morons. Also your behaviour on the end of it betrays you (cookies etc)

There's always the option of using VM's for specific purposes and avoiding any cross-pollination between them. You can have a VM that you *only* use for accessing a specific website for example.

I do that with Facebook, for example (I wouldn't use it, but my whole family is on there...).

Do you think that stops the f@ckers from trailing me with ads?  I think other sites (eBay, Google, etc.) are feeding Facebook with information behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on January 21, 2020, 01:08:26 am
I don't even know, honestly other than the unobtrusive banner ads in this forum which I leave because they don't bug me and I figure it's doing Dave a favor, I don't remember the last time I saw an ad anywhere on the internet. I run adblock and noscript religiously and have for years. It reduces both my annoyance level and my likelihood of getting infected by some kind of malware.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 21, 2020, 12:48:54 pm

I've started using a local DNS server that has a block list for the worst offenders,  it has helped a lot.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on March 10, 2020, 03:21:11 pm
Osram will switch off Lightify cloud servers on August 31th 2021: https://www.osram.com/cb/lightify/lightify-home/lightify-home-faq/lightify_home_faqs.jsp (https://www.osram.com/cb/lightify/lightify-home/lightify-home-faq/lightify_home_faqs.jsp)

The smart lights won't become e-junk but lose a lot of features.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on March 10, 2020, 03:51:06 pm
That's a bummer, but they have at least unlocked them so they'll work with other Zigbee systems. Got to give them credit for that.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on March 10, 2020, 03:52:16 pm
Osram will switch off Lightify cloud servers on August 31th 2021: https://www.osram.com/cb/lightify/lightify-home/lightify-home-faq/lightify_home_faqs.jsp (https://www.osram.com/cb/lightify/lightify-home/lightify-home-faq/lightify_home_faqs.jsp)

Great news.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on March 10, 2020, 06:52:24 pm
Quote
After April 30, 2020 no software updates will be made available for the Philips Hue Bridge v1 and compatibility with our online services will be terminated at that time.

https://www2.meethue.com/en-us/support/end-of-support-policy#3 (https://www2.meethue.com/en-us/support/end-of-support-policy#3)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on March 10, 2020, 07:11:23 pm
Wish one day in the future, there will be a regulation or law, that force manufacturers of cloud based gadgets, that they must provide any necessary details "in advanced", that the details will be opened and will belong to public domain, should they decided to stop their cloud's side business that was supporting their sold products.

So the owners/customers can keep practicing their right to keep owning and using the merchandise they've fully owned and paid.

Guess I'm asking too much or day dreaming, am I ?  :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tszaboo on March 10, 2020, 07:16:42 pm
And I have a Nest smart thermostat. Well, it was smart until a few days ago the wifi died in it. 250 EUR for the thing, and they couldnt build it to last for 4 months. I'll RMA it, but I already wonder, what am I supposed to do until they send a replacement one. Burn wood?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: ebastler on March 10, 2020, 07:40:48 pm
Well, this is not an entirely new, internet/cloud-based phenomenon. We have had end user products which depend on a central infrastructure for a long time:
Having said that -- in all of the above products, exchanging information with some central infrastructure was their key functionality. So I can understand that their function critically depends on the availability of the backbone, and eventually a technical generation change will break that functionality.

The annoying thing about many of the cloud-based services, in my mind, is that the cloud backbone appears almost like an arbitrary add-on, or a dongle, for a product that could function offline quite nicely indeed. Switching and dimming your lights at home comes to mind, or streaming audio from your player to a few wireless speakers... Essentially the cloud dependence is just another mechanism for planned obsolescence here.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on March 11, 2020, 12:12:32 am
[...]
The annoying thing about many of the cloud-based services, in my mind, is that the cloud backbone appears almost like an arbitrary add-on, or a dongle, for a product that could function offline quite nicely indeed. Switching and dimming your lights at home comes to mind, or streaming audio from your player to a few wireless speakers... Essentially the cloud dependence is just another mechanism for planned obsolescence here.


This^.

People are waking up to it, though.  Even many non-technical people are seeing it for what it is.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on March 11, 2020, 12:32:36 am
The problem is that the cloud is a simple way of achieving access from anywhere, which is what normal people want/expect. They're not going to dick around punching holes in their router's firewall, and their eyes will glaze over if they see that on the first page of the manual (they're unlikely to make it to the second page anyway).

The beef I have is not the cloud per se but the lack of anything else. My DVR, for instance, can be accessed from 'outside' but I can also connect direct over the LAN without touching the router if that's what takes my fancy. I think that's the kind of thing we should be pushing for, not just be rabidly anti-cloud.

Of course, better would be to know the protocols, etc, so one could roll one's own if desired.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on March 11, 2020, 08:43:22 am
Very true.

There are two cloud models you had to consider which is where the distinction needs to be made on good versus bad. One enables people to do more with that they have (OneDrive/Dropbox are a fine example of this) and the other is to assert control and lock people in (fusion 360 for example). The former is a good thing because at any time you can pull the plug and just carry on like it never existed or migrate to a new provider. The latter is not good at all.

Top level evil on the latter is the cloud SaaS providers like AWS/Azure/GCP. Once you’re in, you’re in, and fucked.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on March 24, 2020, 12:30:03 pm
Amazon Removes E-Books From Kindle Store, Revokes Ownership

Quote
Today, Amazon removed George Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm from its Kindle e-book store.
The company also went ahead and removed any digital trace of the books, too-striking them
from both users' digital lockers and from Kindle devices. This disturbing, Orwellian move
underscores how, in spite of comments otherwise, a purchase in the digital realm can't be
compared to physical ownership of content.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/168654/kindle_e_book.html (https://www.pcworld.com/article/168654/kindle_e_book.html)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on March 24, 2020, 02:06:05 pm
Amazon Removes E-Books From Kindle Store, Revokes Ownership

Quote
Today, Amazon removed George Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm from its Kindle e-book store.
The company also went ahead and removed any digital trace of the books, too-striking them
from both users' digital lockers and from Kindle devices. This disturbing, Orwellian move
underscores how, in spite of comments otherwise, a purchase in the digital realm can't be
compared to physical ownership of content.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/168654/kindle_e_book.html (https://www.pcworld.com/article/168654/kindle_e_book.html)
Not that it makes the argument and reality any less true, but I can find 1984 for Kindle without issue?

At the moment, yes.
But the point was that, even after buying and having it on your e-reader,
they can revoke it afterwards and you will not be able to read it anymore.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on March 24, 2020, 03:16:03 pm
That was a DRM issue, but the impact is similar to SaaS/cloud issues. There's also an overlap when DRM servers are shut down causing the users to lose access to the DRMed content they bought. The book printed on paper, the music CD, the vinyl, the board game or what have you don't suffer from that.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on March 24, 2020, 03:19:52 pm
That was a DRM issue, but the impact is similar to SaaS/cloud issues. There's also an overlap when DRM servers are shut down causing the users to lose access to the DRMed content they bought. The book printed on paper, the music CD, the vinyl, the board game or what have you don't suffer from that.

I have an app that I use on an old Android tablet in my car to view OBDII diagnostic information from the CAN bus.

Every couple of months, I get a pop-up "Application not owned"...  I then have to take the tablet into the house, connect to wi-fi, and let the app store talk to the "mother ship" before I can continue to use it.

This is for an app that is no longer supported (no longer being updated) for the ancient version of Android running on that tablet (which cannot be updated, not that I would want to - it just works!).

I really don't like the control freakery that digital products are converging towards.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on March 25, 2020, 11:29:38 am
Another steamer. Azure is full  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/24/azure_seems_to_be_full/ (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/24/azure_seems_to_be_full/)

Also entire MSFT SSO in UK went down this morning for about an hour. Couldn't even save stuff in Excel if it was cloud connected  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on March 25, 2020, 12:28:34 pm
Another steamer. Azure is full  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/24/azure_seems_to_be_full/ (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/24/azure_seems_to_be_full/)

Also entire MSFT SSO in UK went down this morning for about an hour. Couldn't even save stuff in Excel if it was cloud connected  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
I was so far surprised that things seemed to work out remarkably well.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on March 25, 2020, 12:36:26 pm
Depends on the provider. AWS / Google are ok. Azure, nope!

Had some problems with Zoom but they went away quite quickly.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on April 08, 2020, 11:10:19 am
"End of Service Announcement for Smart View app (Oct. 5, 2020)

Dear Samsung Smart View app users,

Thank you for using Samsung Smart View app.

Unfortunately, Smart View app will no longer be supported from Oct. 5, 2020.
Please note, if you delete Smart View app from your mobile device, you will not be able to download it again. You can continue to use Smart View app unless you delete the app.

For models over K5500 in 2016, M5500 in 2017*, and The Frame, you can enjoy a new mobile and TV experience by installing the Samsung SmartThings app from Google Play Store, Samsung Galaxy Store, and Apple App Store.

Thank you for your support and understanding.

Sincerely,
The Samsung Smart View App Service Team


https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.samsung.smartviewad (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.samsung.smartviewad)

[attach=1]
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on April 08, 2020, 11:16:14 am
Imagine one day, the TV came with a watered down smartphone exactly like that, or cheap models TV need your smartphone in order to operate the TV, and the old dumb remote is no longer provided.  :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on April 08, 2020, 01:06:05 pm
Yet another proof, as cloud based stuff can cause you harm physically, e.g.:A bulglar intruding your property, loose your home/apt stuffs as they get stolen, or possibly your life too.  :scared:

Oh, its getting better as definitely your personal information will get exposed like email addresses, profile photos, location history, and the precise location of your house and possibly your fingerprint data.  :o

-> Tapplock : Easy-to-pick “smart” locks gush personal data, FTC finds (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/easy-to-pick-smart-locks-gush-personal-data-ftc-finds/)

(https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/tapplock-800x452.jpg)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on April 08, 2020, 01:34:01 pm
That one is really secure. You just need to unscrew the back panel. :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on April 08, 2020, 01:48:33 pm
Not read all the posts but I would not touch cloud based tools for anything remotely important.

It is like the old days of dongles. I lost the use of $20k's worth of Xilinx tools (yes, old days as I say :) ) because one of the two dongles broke. They refused to help (I was told to buy the latest version) but I found a patch for the code and carried on.

For a non corporate user there is generally no need for latest tools.

For "office" you can do everything with MS Office 2007 which is a very popular version and cheap on amazon etc.

There are various EDA packages which all "work" adequately, and if you are stuck with a floating license server you can implement a backup strategy using an ethernet card whose MAC# can be reprogrammed, or possibly running the license server in a VM. I had a long discussion on this topic with Cadence; the salesman acked that one can duplicate / backup the license server that way.

For Adobe stuff, just get hold of CS6. It does 99% of "everything".

Forcing the cloud model also drives the bootleg market, because cracked versions of all this stuff are very available, and disgruntled users who paid for the original software tend to not be too worried about using cracked versions. Often it helps to block a particular executable from internet access and this is possible on android too if rooted.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 08, 2020, 07:27:34 pm
Imagine one day, the TV came with a watered down smartphone exactly like that, or cheap models TV need your smartphone in order to operate the TV, and the old dumb remote is no longer provided.  :palm:

Well, more or less these are coming today.

As example, a kitchen scale is required iphone/ipad, except you pay a premium to rid off LCD display and buttons :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TR2PLE72Z4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TR2PLE72Z4)

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on April 08, 2020, 07:31:05 pm
What the fuck!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

MBA excrement that is and nothing else. Totally pointless.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 08, 2020, 07:42:29 pm
Not read all the posts but I would not touch cloud based tools for anything remotely important.
I added doungles to a "dangerous" list too.

For "office" you can do everything with MS Office 2007 which is a very popular version and cheap on amazon etc.
Why you will need this?
LibreOffice a plain and simple, and works for 3+ major platforms.

There are various EDA packages which all "work" adequately, and if you are stuck with a floating license server you can implement a backup strategy using an ethernet card whose MAC# can be reprogrammed, or possibly running the license server in a VM. I had a long discussion on this topic with Cadence; the salesman acked that one can duplicate / backup the license server that way.
In general, used to be okay, but need to be careful regarding how and where to move VMs, might be unexpected surprises.
These days, bastards know how to detect VM and can block a software  :rant:

For Adobe stuff, just get hold of CS6. It does 99% of "everything".
Or... just spend $50 (1/2 in most cases) and buy Serif Affinity-like tools   :-+

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: JPortici on April 08, 2020, 07:52:49 pm
Why you will need this?
LibreOffice a plain and simple, and works for 3+ major platforms.


to be fair, power point '97 is still more powerful, faster and less crash prone than impress and excel has a few dedicated functions that you can't find on calc or replicate that easily
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on April 08, 2020, 07:57:30 pm
Why you will need this?
LibreOffice a plain and simple, and works for 3+ major platforms.


to be fair, power point '97 is still more powerful, faster and less crash prone than impress and excel has a few dedicated functions that you can't find on calc or replicate that easily

The things is, Libreoffice is fine for 99% of the people.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: JPortici on April 09, 2020, 06:48:46 am
It is, and i do use it except for those two things i mentioned.
He asked, i answered.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on April 09, 2020, 10:03:08 am
The "office lookalikes" are ok if everybody uses them but in reality 99% of business people use the M$ ones and you need total compatibility.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: CatalinaWOW on April 09, 2020, 10:35:37 am
Yep.  I have found that I can do almost everything in Libre that I can do in Office.  Those that I can't are obscure things that very few people use.  Libre even reads older MS documents better than MS does.  And recent versions of Libre load quickly.  But the one thing that fails consistently is producing a MS version of a complex document that renders perfectly in MS.  And rendering complex documents generated in MS.  And since most businesses use MS this is a fatal flaw.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on April 09, 2020, 10:52:11 am
Interesting thread direction.

MS office is "one of those things". I've used it extensively, from writing 500+ page technical documents over the space of 25 years, to an API level down to writing huge VSTO plugins to do runtime templating etc. I know office better than most people do and I know how to use it properly and I know where it sucks.

The workflow is fundamentally broken if you're sharing stuff. It really is a complete shit show. Even between office versions there are issues. The only place it works in this capacity is across total version consistency across everyone and then there are so many edge cases, gotchas, problems that costs increase massively. I've seen financial advisors crying into their tea after spending a week writing portfolio reports for people in it only to come back and find the document is toast. So they came up with Office 365 which sort of enforces version consistency by taking it away and gives real time collaboration tools. This introduces another thousand concerns that most users don't want to deal with at the same time and breaks working practices. So what happens is you end up with 9 different versions of office and people emailing shitty documents around still or editing them on a file share back like it's 1999 again.

Alas my patience for this shit is very very very low. So I use Libreoffice myself. Sheets, writer, draw. Impress is cancerous as is powerpoint. Low information density. You can't pay me to write powerpoints :). My workflow moved to actually receiving pieces of poo in docx format, cut and paste them into notepad2 to remove all meta-formatting and then assembling them carefully into writer. Once complete this is turned into a PDF and mailed back for review. The document itself NEVER leaves the owner's machine (other than for DR) and is never touched by another human. Edits and reviews are done by email by sending text content only however they wish to spew it at me.

The outcome is reliable, fast, well controlled and importantly does not specify which technology to use. I could switch to LaTeX tomorrow if I could be arsed with it and the outcome would be the same. And after all it's the document that's important isn't it, not the tools. Turns out the focus on the tools not the working model is what is costly and complex and requires maintenance.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 09, 2020, 11:05:55 am
The "office lookalikes" are ok if everybody uses them but in reality 99% of business people use the M$ ones and you need total compatibility.

I'm using LibreOffice  on Windows/Mac after give up MS Office subscription since no other way, and share exported files to external business world.
No issues so far. I do not push limits (such as some weird formatting or bizarre functionality).

If you want fully compatibility, I cannot think who is using unsupported MS Office 2007 these days for a business purpose, there is a very high probability that your email with word/excel 2007 format attachment will go to null or mark as spam/dangherous file.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on April 09, 2020, 11:08:47 am
When a document, made with ms office, doesn't look right in Libreoffice, it's the fault of Libreoffice.

When a document, made with Libreoffice, doesn't look right in ms office, it's the fault of Libreoffice.

When a document, made with ms office version x, doesn't look right in ms office version z, it's ... normal!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 09, 2020, 11:09:32 am
Quote
As example, a kitchen scale is required iphone/ipad, except you pay a premium to rid off LCD display and buttons

I like that! Wouldn't get one and it's a lot of faffing about, but it's the GUI equivalent of ingredient measuring where the traditional paper recipe and manual weighing is the CLI version. If you don't normally cook or mix cocktails it's a great way to make sure the measures are at least correct.

Separately, one beef I have with our scales are that you can't read the LCD if you have a big bowl on them. Or if the light is obscured by whatever you're measuring. A scale I use for post work has a removable display attached by a springy lead, but normal kitchen ones don't. Really annoying. This thing would sort that out.

I think we need to be careful what we are dissing here. After all, LCDs on a scale FFS!!1! Why not just a known weight and balance, eh? You are already on the slippery slope, you're just pointing and laughing at people further down.

The problem here is not the phone per se, it is the cloud aspect. Router goes down? No weighing. If it were Bluetooth or even local WiFi then it would appear in a different topic on this form and not this one. Get them to remove the mandatory cloud aspect and I would consider getting one of these if it were cheap enough.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on April 09, 2020, 11:22:14 am
"there is a very high probability that your email with word/excel 2007 format attachment will go to null or mark as spam/dangherous file."

Can you cite an actual example of a spam filtering implementation which checks the MS Office version?

I've never heard of anybody doing that.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on April 09, 2020, 11:22:54 am
We have a forefront policy that removes ALL MS office documents from emails.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 09, 2020, 11:50:19 am
I think we need to be careful what we are dissing here. After all, LCDs on a scale FFS!!1!
Well, you are happy to buy a car without keys and using iphone app to turn it on, that's fine. There is a market already.

I don't mind this kitchen scale and experience they bring with a recipe app. Great gift who keen into a cooking and cannot handle "traditional" way.
Actually, I saw it in a live on some exhibition and build not too bad as far as I remember. Cost below $100, not sure about an app subscription and used battery there.

But I do not need 2nd scale in my kitchen. Without LCD is absolutly useless in a daily life.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 09, 2020, 11:57:31 am
Can you cite an actual example of a spam filtering implementation which checks the MS Office version?
No, I can't.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on April 09, 2020, 02:10:41 pm
I've been closely involved with this stuff and it would be unbelievably dumb (and technically difficult) to scan attachments for the version of the application.

Spam filtering employs all kinds of dubious processes which is why so many emails go missing - especially with gmail destinations. Throwing in attachment versions would finish things off nicely.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 09, 2020, 03:15:10 pm
I've been closely involved with this stuff and it would be unbelievably dumb (and technically difficult) to scan attachments for the version of the application.

Spam filtering employs all kinds of dubious processes which is why so many emails go missing - especially with gmail destinations. Throwing in attachment versions would finish things off nicely.

Maybe I too harsh to dump 2007 office documents, thinking that this version of MS Office still works with binary formats, but nothing new to check what is an attachement is and content signature...

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 09, 2020, 03:16:45 pm
We have a forefront policy that removes ALL MS office documents from emails.

One of most toughest policy that I saw, they do above and put a link into an email to say "attachment has been removed, please contact us if you really want to see", you press on a link, fill a form to justify a business reason, it goes through 4 eyes approval process, and eventually somebody in an isolated environment will open it and save in less "hazardous" format. Of course, a department that put a request to proceed, will pay full cost.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: CatalinaWOW on April 09, 2020, 03:39:31 pm
When a document, made with ms office, doesn't look right in Libreoffice, it's the fault of Libreoffice.

When a document, made with Libreoffice, doesn't look right in ms office, it's the fault of Libreoffice.

When a document, made with ms office version x, doesn't look right in ms office version z, it's ... normal!

Taint fair.  But it is true when you aren't dominant in a market.  You also omitted the fact that Libre also has version self compatibility issues.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 09, 2020, 03:47:01 pm
Libre is far to be perfect, sometimes it's sucks

What are alternatives to MS Office Cloud Empire?

Corel Wordperfect Suite?   :horse:
Apples Calc + Pages + Keynote?  :-X
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on April 09, 2020, 03:49:04 pm
To be honest Google docs is pretty good. But that's not actually making and cloud dependencies go away. The API is amazingly powerful.

Apple's products are dire in this space. Absolutely the worst. Numbers is like using libreoffice with mittens full of concrete on
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on April 09, 2020, 04:44:07 pm
"We have a forefront policy that removes ALL MS office documents from emails."

That's pretty aggressive.

OTOH I would never send somebody (who I didn't totally trust) a MS Office document in its raw form - because of hidden data which it may contain. I know a guy who lost a multi million $ contract via that route. He sent somebody a quote which he produced by editing another quote and using Save As, and the former recipient found interesting stuff under Document Properties (so he didn't even have to look hard) :)

I would only ever send a PDF.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on April 09, 2020, 04:47:25 pm
To be honest Google docs is pretty good. But that's not actually making and cloud dependencies go away. The API is amazingly powerful.
Hard to swallow that Google has considered as cloud-free solution in this thread  >:D

I'm happy have zero dependency on Google and if tomorrow they will disappear my happiness should be on a same level.  ^-^

Wondering how it was 20-30-... years ago in dark on-premises only time
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: free_electron on April 09, 2020, 04:50:06 pm
With the corona virus going around , the air pollution now is so low i can actually see my data in the clouds ...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: mrflibble on April 13, 2020, 08:30:51 pm
Another fun example...

https://designer.genomecompiler.com/

Company acquisition, gobbler company gobbles up goblee design software, trusty online version goes *poof*.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on April 14, 2020, 06:50:45 am
"We have a forefront policy that removes ALL MS office documents from emails."

That's pretty aggressive.

OTOH I would never send somebody (who I didn't totally trust) a MS Office document in its raw form - because of hidden data which it may contain. I know a guy who lost a multi million $ contract via that route. He sent somebody a quote which he produced by editing another quote and using Save As, and the former recipient found interesting stuff under Document Properties (so he didn't even have to look hard) :)

I would only ever send a PDF.
Pdf can include anything and everything and regularly does. It's not intrinsically better.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on April 29, 2020, 10:38:57 am
"On May 29, 2020 the Wemo NetCam servers will be decommissioned.
Although your Wemo NetCam will still connect to your Wi-Fi network,
without these servers you will not be able to view the video feed or access
the security features of your Wemo NetCam, such as Motion Clips and Motion Notifications"


https://www.belkin.com/us/support-article?articleNum=316642 (https://www.belkin.com/us/support-article?articleNum=316642)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on April 29, 2020, 12:52:41 pm
"On May 29, 2020 the Wemo NetCam servers will be decommissioned.
Although your Wemo NetCam will still connect to your Wi-Fi network,
without these servers you will not be able to view the video feed or access
the security features of your Wemo NetCam, such as Motion Clips and Motion Notifications"


https://www.belkin.com/us/support-article?articleNum=316642 (https://www.belkin.com/us/support-article?articleNum=316642)

Wishful thinking that they will fully secured or even better completely destroy the user's credentials of the cam owners.

As these days, once leaked say the list is released in the darknet, or even turned as hot commodity for criminals, in the wrong hand, worry many of those owners may become crime victims.  :scared:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: rdl on April 29, 2020, 01:16:12 pm
Am I understanding this Wemo thing right? You hooked it up to your home network from which it connected to the internet then sent your video out to some "cloud" server somewhere and you could only access it from there after setting up an account? You had no direct connection to something on your own network? If that's correct it's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. People are idiots.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on April 29, 2020, 01:21:38 pm
Am I understanding this Wemo thing right? You hooked it up to your home network from which it connected to the internet then sent your video out to some "cloud" server somewhere and you could only access it from there after setting up an account? You had no direct connection to something on your own network? If that's correct it's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. People are idiots.

No, in some cases, the product owners probably fully unaware of this matter not because of ignorance, but they're just victim, say like blindly trusted to the who ever installed/sold/procured it, and put it in their house, say elders or moms & pops type that are not techno savvy at all.

Scary thought.  :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on April 29, 2020, 01:37:50 pm
Well this thread and a couple of major explosions I've had recently kicked off some risk analysis over the last few weeks. I've actually been looking at how to get ALL my shit out of the cloud just as a thought exercise. This turned into an actual project because the risks are tangible when I look at them and I've just changed jobs so there's no need to maintain all the old shit and keep paying for it. There's also a financial incentive to just do it myself as well. Analysis shows there are two things you just can't get rid of:

Email. I am quite happy to run my own mail server if I'm honest. However that's not really feasible now due to how the Internet has turned into large corporate islands. Your email has to be spurged out of and delivered to one of them rather than self hosting it otherwise you end up in a mire of RBL systems and some upstream MTU's telling your impolitely to fuck off even if you have SPF, DKIM and DMARC set up properly. There is also no process to appeal to some provider so you can send mail to them either. To do business via email you need to play in the cloud still. I've chosen FastMail as probably the least shitty option. There is no GOOD option. Ideally I'd like an SMTP relay on the public internet that just forwards to my internal network and back again but I can't find a single provider that does that.

Identity. This one is difficult. A lot of services require sign in and this organically spreads. Consider smartphones (that may change for me as well) and things like streaming services. You'd have to burn those services entirely to benefit from declouding. Not quite ready for that yet. Streaming can be replaced with torrented media but that has ethical concerns around it as well. Then again might as well read a book instead :)

Project continues as and when I get time ...

First step was grab a server for inside the house as I need something online all the time to handle some of the scripts I was running in the cloud and to write the odd bit of Linux software on. It's really inconvenient shutting stuff down all the time so server it is. To keep power, noise and costs down, this is refurb fanless tiny little Lenovo M600 dual core celeron box with 4Gb of RAM. It has an M2 slot so is getting a 1TiB WD M2 SSD and Debian on it and will run headless and network attached for internal services. The total expenditure of that node (179 GBP inc SSD) is approximately 4 months of my old AWS bill so I have closed that to pay for it. I looked at Raspberry Pi but quite frankly they are not proper computers designed for 100% duty 24/7/365 and there are some seriously nasty bugs with valgrind on ARM.

Edit: correct costings...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on April 29, 2020, 03:36:30 pm
I've chosen FastMail as probably the least shitty option.

Have you considered Protonmail?

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on April 29, 2020, 04:40:29 pm
Yes. Twice as expensive as fastmail and I didn't like it as much.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: thinkfat on April 29, 2020, 05:26:16 pm
With the corona virus going around , the air pollution now is so low i can actually see my data in the clouds ...

There is no cloud. Only other people's computers.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: rdl on April 29, 2020, 10:52:15 pm
...
No, in some cases, the product owners probably fully unaware of this matter not because of ignorance, but they're just victim...

You're right, I have to agree. It's not so much people are stupid, they just don't understand how it actually works. I think I should have blamed the greedy companies instead.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 30, 2020, 06:10:42 pm
Quote
they just don't understand how it actually works

I understand how it actually works and really hate that kind of thing. However, it is suck it up or don't have - the norm is to tunnel off-LAN then back again for ease of implementation, and if you don't like that you either do without or write your own everything and create your own hardware.

It's not quite that black and white, but very close. I use itead kit because I convinced myself I could flash it and use a local setup only. Maybe another network outage or two along I'll do that. I also have Netvue doorbells, and with those I am stuck because there isn't a non-cloud option. Especially not if you want to tie into Alexa (which I use as a bridge - the doorbell being run flashes a light in my office courtesy of Alexa/itead).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: rdl on May 01, 2020, 03:14:50 am
I'd guess that "the norm" is so that it can be monetized in some way, not a technical necessity.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 01, 2020, 12:00:39 pm
I'd guess that "the norm" is so that it can be monetized in some way, not a technical necessity.
In many cases it actually increases the complexity with all the penalties you can expect.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on May 01, 2020, 12:12:32 pm
Certainly monetisation comes into it but even for kit where there is no forward profit (for the vendor) or cost (for the user) it is just easier to have things talk via the cloud if there is ever going to be a chance it will be accessed off-LAN. And that's what people want to do - you don't whip out your phone to switch a device on when you're standing next to the wall switch (well, not more than a few times after you first install it). You want to turn your heated blanket on, for instance, as you're on the way home from the pub.

There is also the smarts involved - timers, device interaction, etc. Devices will have limited storage and not be privy to many things (such as what the weather is like, when sundown is, etc). Some cloud server makes that trivial, so these things are going to be talking cloud anyway and it's just too much hassle to walk the user through opening ports on a router that they're not going to do that (even for kit where they don't need to do it, because they don't want a dozen different protocols to maintain).

And we haven't looked at sending notifications to your phone without using Apple's or Google's push framework. Good luck with that, and battery life, without going off-LAN.

In the vendor's position I'd be inclined to do the same as they do. Life is just easier.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on May 07, 2020, 04:52:23 pm
[attachimg=1]


"In order to provide for development and continued growth, we are transitioning to a $4.99 monthly subscription, starting on May 13, 2020. "

"Should you choose not to sign up for a subscription you will no longer be able to access your Wink devices from the app,
with voice control or through the API, and your automations will be disabled on May 13. "


https://blog.wink.com/wink-blog/2020/5/6/introducing-wink-subscription (https://blog.wink.com/wink-blog/2020/5/6/introducing-wink-subscription)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 07, 2020, 05:11:37 pm
Certainly monetisation comes into it but even for kit where there is no forward profit (for the vendor) or cost (for the user) it is just easier to have things talk via the cloud if there is ever going to be a chance it will be accessed off-LAN. And that's what people want to do - you don't whip out your phone to switch a device on when you're standing next to the wall switch (well, not more than a few times after you first install it). You want to turn your heated blanket on, for instance, as you're on the way home from the pub.

There is also the smarts involved - timers, device interaction, etc. Devices will have limited storage and not be privy to many things (such as what the weather is like, when sundown is, etc). Some cloud server makes that trivial, so these things are going to be talking cloud anyway and it's just too much hassle to walk the user through opening ports on a router that they're not going to do that (even for kit where they don't need to do it, because they don't want a dozen different protocols to maintain).

And we haven't looked at sending notifications to your phone without using Apple's or Google's push framework. Good luck with that, and battery life, without going off-LAN.

In the vendor's position I'd be inclined to do the same as they do. Life is just easier.
I can't agree. It's not complicated nor hard to do it locally and you don't need to maintain a backend and deal with many uncertainties.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on May 07, 2020, 05:15:56 pm
Oh the irony

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/microsofts-github-account-allegedly-hacked-500gb-stolen/ (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/microsofts-github-account-allegedly-hacked-500gb-stolen/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on May 07, 2020, 07:29:09 pm
Quote
It's not complicated nor hard to do it locally

For you and me. For Joe Whatsaport it can lead to tears before bedtime. And it's Joe that's going to be failing to get your kit working with some router you've never heard of.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 07, 2020, 07:43:58 pm
For you and me. For Joe Whatsaport it can lead to tears before bedtime. And it's Joe that's going to be failing to get your kit working with some router you've never heard of.
For the manufacturer.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: DimitriP on May 08, 2020, 05:53:18 pm
Oh the irony

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/microsofts-github-account-allegedly-hacked-500gb-stolen/ (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/microsofts-github-account-allegedly-hacked-500gb-stolen/)

Oh C'mon ....  it wasn't anything "too important" !!!!     ;) 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on May 09, 2020, 11:48:56 am

Not really a cloud based fail, this one, but a fail of modern web design that I find quite amusing.

A couple of years ago, Nasdaq launched a shiny new site with all the modern BS design features, and dumbed down functionality www.nasdaq.com (http://www.nasdaq.com)

Customers got so p!ssed that Nasdaq was eventually forced to keep the old site on line as old.nasdaq.com (http://old.nasdaq.com) - where things actually work, does not require a 12 foot video wall to display two lines of text, etc.!

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on May 15, 2020, 09:29:53 am
[attachimg=1]

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/error-r-not-authenticated-please-try-logging-in-again/td-p/9066032 (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/error-r-not-authenticated-please-try-logging-in-again/td-p/9066032)

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on May 15, 2020, 09:50:50 am

....old site on line as does not require a 12 foot video wall to display two lines of text, etc.!

this  :rant:

I bet designed by people who do not have any clue what is all about  :horse:

a few websites used be good upgraded to "new way of web" and I just stopped use if cannot compensate my time spent wasted

The most annoying things so called a carousel on 1/2 of screen with couple line of texts and small image, or grid of products with same picture spreaded on 100+ pages...



Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 15, 2020, 11:45:07 am
One of my peeves is lazy loading on websites where it doesn't make any sense. I get it's useful when you have many or large images. It doesn't make any sense to have plaintext loading per paragraph or have a list in an interface load in segments of 25. Just searching for something suddenly becomes a hassle. It's a few bytes of text, just load it already.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on May 15, 2020, 12:05:46 pm
One of my peeves is lazy loading on websites where it doesn't make any sense. I get it's useful when you have many or large images. It doesn't make any sense to have plaintext loading per paragraph or have a list in an interface load in segments of 25. Just searching for something suddenly becomes a hassle. It's a few bytes of text, just load it already.

Wonder if there is a trend of these things coming down the road hand in hand:  poor web design, and cloud based - both!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on May 15, 2020, 12:13:26 pm
The lazy loading thing is usually actually a nasty trick. It allows them to monitor your progress through the page and do visitor analytics. You can track when people get disinterested in the article etc.

The thing that does annoy the shit out of me is when it is done to save bandwidth but the first thing it does is puke 2 megs of javascript and about 50 hits to different tracking sites first.

gopher is still around if anyone has had enough of this shit: https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw

Edit: I'm actually building a console gopher client in Go at the moment ;)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 15, 2020, 01:50:50 pm
The lazy loading thing is usually actually a nasty trick. It allows them to monitor your progress through the page and do visitor analytics. You can track when people get disinterested in the article etc.

The thing that does annoy the shit out of me is when it is done to save bandwidth but the first thing it does is puke 2 megs of javascript and about 50 hits to different tracking sites first.

gopher is still around if anyone has had enough of this shit: https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw

Edit: I'm actually building a console gopher client in Go at the moment ;)
It's not just articles, but also interfaces that simply list something or even plain text. As you say, massively bloated pages are loaded to skimp on the actual content weighing next to nothing. Please just load that 50 kB table. Intrusive tracking is an issue, mind.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on May 15, 2020, 03:21:10 pm
Edit: I'm actually building a console gopher client in Go at the moment ;)

...and in 5 years time, BBS & FidoNet hosting are coming back too?   :o
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on May 15, 2020, 03:33:23 pm
Edit: I'm actually building a console gopher client in Go at the moment ;)

...and in 5 years time, BBS & FidoNet hosting are coming back too?   :o

Wouldn't be surprised.  As the WWW becomes more and more commercialised and locked down, people will look for an escape hatch...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on May 15, 2020, 03:37:34 pm
Yeah. Look at Gopher server growth. 3x as many servers in the last 3 years. 4.5 million selectors (pages) available.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on May 15, 2020, 04:15:40 pm
[attachimg=1]

https://ifttt-sunset.mydlink.com/ (https://ifttt-sunset.mydlink.com/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 15, 2020, 05:12:09 pm
Silly people! They forgot to explain how the people who bought it for the IFTTT support can get their money back. Bunch of goofs.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on May 15, 2020, 07:22:11 pm
Yeah. Look at Gopher server growth. 3x as many servers in the last 3 years. 4.5 million selectors (pages) available.
Interesting. Never realised Gopher still existed. I have used that briefly but then I got a 3.5" diskette with Netscape on it from a friend.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on May 20, 2020, 11:47:48 am
"We'll stop supporting this browser soon, for the best experience please update your browser" => Buy a new TV!

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/youtube-videos-no-longer-work-in-my-browser/msg3076477/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/youtube-videos-no-longer-work-in-my-browser/msg3076477/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on January 11, 2021, 03:16:19 pm
Yet another proof, especially your core business that runs and depends solely at "other people" cloud, dead as the dodo.

-> Parler confused users download 'Porn-y' App Parlor (https://mashable.com/article/confused-and-looking-for-parler-parlor-app-wins/)   :-DD

... and if that is not bad enough ... just released, practically they're screwed so badly ....

-> 70TB of Parler users’ messages, videos, and posts leaked by security researchers (https://cybernews.com/news/70tb-of-parler-users-messages-videos-and-posts-leaked-by-security-researchers/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 11, 2021, 10:48:09 pm
One of my mottos is always have an exit plan. Thus if you bring in AWS for anything, make sure it's just the IaaS stuff that you use and make sure you have another cloud provider lined up ready to roll (probably Azure even though I shudder at the thought). I'm more worried about billing fuck ups to be honest.

Or alternatively don't start a propagandist funded right-wing focused socialist network, build a moderation policy which promotes loons and start an actual insurrection / sedition on someone else's infrastructure and not expect them to be pissed about it. Also best not to start posting on twitter almost immediately about bombing their infrastructure afterwards as retaliation. Fucking retards the lot of them.

tl;dr: don't shit where you sleep.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: wraper on January 11, 2021, 11:32:28 pm
right-wing focused socialist network
It's an oxymoron. FWIW twatter a is left-wing socialist social network. And Parler actually had more stringent rules, they just did not apply them based on political spectrum but done that equally to all. It's called lynching, and it happened "completely not suspiciously" when Trump supporter exodus from twatter happened. And IMHO antitrust laws should be taken to action.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 11, 2021, 11:47:34 pm
Apparently Parler has been hacked, all user posts (including deleted posts) have been uploaded to a public server.

Will be interesting to see if the platform was used for seditious activities, or not - we will know soon enough.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 12, 2021, 08:13:40 am
Page through here. It was: https://www.reddit.com/r/ParlerWatch/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/ParlerWatch/)

The content is disgusting. And now publicly available so it can be cited as a source  :-DD

right-wing focused socialist network
It's an oxymoron. FWIW twatter a is left-wing socialist social network. And Parler actually had more stringent rules, they just did not apply them based on political spectrum but done that equally to all. It's called lynching, and it happened "completely not suspiciously" when Trump supporter exodus from twatter happened. And IMHO antitrust laws should be taken to action.

That'll be iOS being a dick. Social network it was supposed to say  :-DD

Twitter has no wing. It just has lumps of loons on it.

Parler had no effective moderation policy. That was a fallacy. New users were shadow banned and only admitted to the community by 5 other community members who confirmed they were ideologically aligned. They refused to take down content when informed about it. And on top of that they were actually caught red handed shaping the community on numerous occasions. And they were in breach of AWS terms and conditions which are very very detailed on these matters. I know because I spent half of yesterday on a conference call reading through them with our legal counsel.

As for anti-trust, thanks to the whole gay cakes situation, there is a legal precedent set now for a company to refuse service to any customers it sees fit. Oh the fucking irony. Thus there is no anti-trust. There is no case to answer.

Plus Bezos could probably buy the US gov and make them mud wrestle for cheetos but that's another problem.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: GlennSprigg on January 12, 2021, 12:59:56 pm
Obviously NUMEROUS software companies are now going 'Cloud-Based', both for the guts of the Software
itself, but for the actual working 'Data'. I understand that this 'might' be useful for cross-platform/device access
to your data, from say a PC in your office to a smart pad in the field!! However, there is insufficient security yet,
apart from the things that the OP first mentioned!  I'm old-school, and want NOTHING to do with the 'Cloud' !!  >:D

I've said to people before, that the main reason for the likes of Win-10 and it's original crappy interface, is the
move towards Tablets & Touch-Screens, where the Device/Tablet etc becomes more of a 'Dumb-Terminal' once
again, like the original days!  We may not have a choice in the future, but I for one will die happy with what I
have, being self contained software, and my own data storage.  I'm too old to change!!   :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: dferyance on January 12, 2021, 02:58:43 pm
As for anti-trust, thanks to the whole gay cakes situation, there is a legal precedent set now for a company to refuse service to any customers it sees fit. Oh the fucking irony. Thus there is no anti-trust. There is no case to answer.

It will be re-assuring to know that the USA supreme court Masterpiece Cakeshop case did not establish that it is ok for a company to refuse service to anyone. This wasn't even up for discussion / decision in the case. It was a very narrow case with an even more narrow ruling. It wasn't even a liberal vs conservative decision as Breyer and Kagan were with the majority.

I feel no pity for Parler but am concerned with the general precedent. We have very large and powerful companies with significant control over the Internet that are wielding that power. Ok so Parler was an easy target, but what next?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on January 12, 2021, 03:42:37 pm
I feel no pity for Parler but am concerned with the general precedent. We have very large and powerful companies with significant control over the Internet that are wielding that power. Ok so Parler was an easy target, but what next?

Nothing wrong with that, just live with it and live thru it, that are the two sides of the same coin of capitalism, just can not enjoy the good side of the coin, while living in denial for the other unwanted side.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: wraper on January 12, 2021, 03:50:29 pm
I feel no pity for Parler but am concerned with the general precedent. We have very large and powerful companies with significant control over the Internet that are wielding that power. Ok so Parler was an easy target, but what next?

Nothing wrong with that, just live with it and live thru it, that are the two sides of the same coin of capitalism, just can not enjoy the good side of the coin, while living in denial for the other unwanted side.
It feels like we have a new emerging CCP of big tech.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 12, 2021, 08:15:50 pm
Wechat = Facebook. You already have one.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on January 16, 2021, 11:18:39 pm
It will be re-assuring to know that the USA supreme court Masterpiece Cakeshop case did not establish that it is ok for a company to refuse service to anyone. This wasn't even up for discussion / decision in the case. It was a very narrow case with an even more narrow ruling. It wasn't even a liberal vs conservative decision as Breyer and Kagan were with the majority.

I feel no pity for Parler but am concerned with the general precedent. We have very large and powerful companies with significant control over the Internet that are wielding that power. Ok so Parler was an easy target, but what next?
I'm very uncomfortable with entities wielding massive amounts of power and influence deciding what is to be discussed and what not and what is acceptable or not. We developed all kinds of checks and balances for governments as we realized such a lopsided balance of power tends to yield all kinds of nasty situations. The big tech companies arguably have more power than many nations around the world yet few if any of the same checks and balances exist. They can wipe you from the many things they're involved in and simply move on without consequence. They don't even have to tell you why. I don't like the continuous narrowing of what's considered normal and acceptable and I don't like the idea of causing what's potentially a fair amount of harm to people's lives or livelihoods without recourse. If companies are going to wield that kind of power they should be accountable. Them using that power to wipe a bunch of dicks off the web doesn't make it any better.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on January 16, 2021, 11:39:55 pm
I'm very uncomfortable with entities wielding massive amounts of power and influence deciding what is to be discussed and what not and what is acceptable or not. We developed all kinds of checks and balances for governments as we realized such a lopsided balance of power tends to yield all kinds of nasty situations. The big tech companies arguably have more power than many nations around the world yet few if any of the same checks and balances exist. They can wipe you from the many things they're involved in and simply move on without consequence. They don't even have to tell you why. I don't like the continuous narrowing of what's considered normal and acceptable and I don't like the idea of causing what's potentially a fair amount of harm to people's lives or livelihoods without recourse. If companies are going to wield that kind of power they should be accountable. Them using that power to wipe a bunch of dicks off the web doesn't make it any better.

I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 16, 2021, 11:51:07 pm
It will be re-assuring to know that the USA supreme court Masterpiece Cakeshop case did not establish that it is ok for a company to refuse service to anyone. This wasn't even up for discussion / decision in the case. It was a very narrow case with an even more narrow ruling. It wasn't even a liberal vs conservative decision as Breyer and Kagan were with the majority.

I feel no pity for Parler but am concerned with the general precedent. We have very large and powerful companies with significant control over the Internet that are wielding that power. Ok so Parler was an easy target, but what next?
I'm very uncomfortable with entities wielding massive amounts of power and influence deciding what is to be discussed and what not and what is acceptable or not. We developed all kinds of checks and balances for governments as we realized such a lopsided balance of power tends to yield all kinds of nasty situations. The big tech companies arguably have more power than many nations around the world yet few if any of the same checks and balances exist. They can wipe you from the many things they're involved in and simply move on without consequence. They don't even have to tell you why. I don't like the continuous narrowing of what's considered normal and acceptable and I don't like the idea of causing what's potentially a fair amount of harm to people's lives or livelihoods without recourse. If companies are going to wield that kind of power they should be accountable. Them using that power to wipe a bunch of dicks off the web doesn't make it any better.

The American lawmakers are behind the curve in setting up ground rules for this.  All America had to fight back with, against the lies and conspiracy, was the T&Cs of the private companies involved...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 17, 2021, 01:21:42 pm
If you look at both sides of the argument here it’s fairly obvious that the reason that the people were silenced was because the technology companies feared liability down the line. This is no different to the local church no longer wanting to host KKK meetings but on a larger scale.

We have to look at the technology companies rather than a single entity wielding power but a collective of people. The individuals who make the company up need to be held liable for any outcome not the organisation. When bad behaviour becomes untenable then the entire organisation will collapse if people are put on the spot. I’ve seen this in the defence sector: people buy into the ideology being promoted as employees not the reality. When reality is forced on them from the outside, people bring their own position into debate.

As for government checks and balances they clearly don’t exist or work because they are based on a system that is at least 100 years old. What evolves in such environments, and any bureaucracy, is an intimate knowledge of how to sidestep legislation and the ability to manipulate change in favour of deregulation.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BradC on January 17, 2021, 01:45:26 pm
Email. I am quite happy to run my own mail server if I'm honest. However that's not really feasible now due to how the Internet has turned into large corporate islands. Your email has to be spurged out of and delivered to one of them rather than self hosting it otherwise you end up in a mire of RBL systems and some upstream MTU's telling your impolitely to fuck off even if you have SPF, DKIM and DMARC set up properly. There is also no process to appeal to some provider so you can send mail to them either. To do business via email you need to play in the cloud still.

Found via necropost....

This is about a year late, I have excuses but let’s say I’ve been “long time lurker first time poster” for a few years.

We run and have run our own mailserver(s) since 2005. We are a *huge* organisation (sarc) with 5 people and an IT department of “me” who do business globally, and we’ve never had an issue getting mail delivered. All outbound are running exim4 on a VPS. We do have SPF and DKIM because that made life “easier” with google, but it wasn’t strictly necessary. We run our own DNS and rely on nothing external sans a co-lo in the uk, a vps in the uk (DNS2) and a VPS in Sydney (DNS3, inbound SMTP secondary and DNS3). Maintenance is the odd patch, an OS upgrade every 4 years and paying bills.

We do have a fairly significant inbound greylist exception list, but only because a lot of email admins are dumb fucks.

You don’t *need* the “cloud”. Having said that, if you don’t want to use someone else’s infrastructure you do have to be prepared to put the effort in.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 17, 2021, 01:57:16 pm
That all works fine until one day one of your VPS ranges ends up on an RBL. I’ve worked for various companies doing high volume outbound email. Not spam but things like large SaaS vendors sending out notifications and workflow via email etc. Absolutely all it takes is one bad day and you’ve got a serious problem on your hands. And that day always comes. Also some address ranges have poor reputation. A wonderful recent problem I’ve seen is Amazon SES which has outbound delivery problems occasionally because someone on SORBS keeps listing their address ranges.

I’d argue that it’s a wasted effort running that for a 5 person org. You could be generating more revenue doing something else. Outsource it to someone.

On our current set up we have two actual real nodes running postfix at disparate colocation providers under our ASN and range. SPF, DMARC, DKIM configured. Pushing 20k emails a day out. Reject rate is 0.1%. But we don’t run corp email on that domain - it’s ok O365. 

As for not needing the cloud, yep I agree. But leveraging it is important to be competitive where it makes sense.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BradC on January 17, 2021, 02:36:11 pm
I’d argue that it’s a wasted effort running that for a 5 person org. You could be generating more revenue doing something else. Outsource it to someone.

I apologise, I read your post as "I can't make self-hosted E-mail work so I've outsourced it to fastmail". I was simply pointing out that you *can* make it work, but you appear to have that sorted. I'm a bit behind.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on January 17, 2021, 02:47:28 pm
A wonderful recent problem I’ve seen is Amazon SES which has outbound delivery problems occasionally because someone on SORBS keeps listing their address ranges.

And MS' Azure has a problem with SPAMmers too for the last two or three months. They seem to just play whack-a-mole and not being able to deal with the SPAMmers. So I had to block *.cloudapp.azure.com. >:D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 17, 2021, 02:48:34 pm
I’d argue that it’s a wasted effort running that for a 5 person org. You could be generating more revenue doing something else. Outsource it to someone.

I apologise, I read your post as "I can't make self-hosted E-mail work so I've outsourced it to fastmail". I was simply pointing out that you *can* make it work, but you appear to have that sorted. I'm a bit behind.

My personal email is on Fastmail. Business is on O365. Our outbound SaaS is self hosted because that's a trade-off that was reasonable. I also changed jobs half way through the thread which may have confused things  :-DD

My initial problem was stated as "I'm tired of running my own mail server and the problems it causes thus I use Fastmail who make all those problems go away so I can regain that bit of my life". The thing is fastmail costs me ~10 minutes of salary a month.  :-//

A wonderful recent problem I’ve seen is Amazon SES which has outbound delivery problems occasionally because someone on SORBS keeps listing their address ranges.

And MS' Azure has a problem with SPAMmers too for the last two or three months. They seem to just play whack-a-mole and not being able to deal with the SPAMmers. So I had to block *.cloudapp.azure.com. >:D

Exactly. This is why we had to run our own servers in the end for commercial outbound. SES has some sender reputation stuff but it only takes one mail server admin on the receiving end to report SPAM and then you're up shit creek.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: AlexJackson on January 17, 2021, 03:07:47 pm
I totally hate this modern web experience.

:blah: !!!RANT INCOMING!!!  :blah:

Just recently I was looking at a wiki style page and wanted to see how they did their div layouts (so I can move from using tables - which work wonderfully without tons of css for laying out data). My intention was duplicating it. I knew it was bad, but I didn't just grasp how bad it actually was until I looked at the referenced assets.

836KB for 1 CSS, 160K for another other CSS, plus 9 other CSS files I didn't bother with, 600K for a javascript library, another 150K for some other ad tracking javascript library (thank god I have scripting turned off!). I was nearly at a 2MB download before I even got to the html, and images.

When your bloat far exceeds the content on your page (including images), you have really gone wrong. Also you've done something wrong when nothing loads with scripts off (93% of sites I have attempted to visit - Yes, at one point I did count).

Anyway this is why I always keep old versions an use old versions over the newest stuff. Remember in the early 2000s when Adobe first moved all their programs to the 'cloud' such as authentication for photoshop? Remember when Adobe had that masssssssssive licensing server outage that resulted in so many people not being able to use Photoshop? Yea, I do. I made a lot of money off that "fiasco" because I still had Photoshop 5 LE, Gimp, & MS paint and I was able to get people results if they didn't require extremely complex things. A lot of times not the exact results they wanted, but results they could compromise on, and could use to deliver. I was insanely busy for 2 weeks, even after the whole "fiasco" was corrected. Why? My software just worked when everyone else was crippled by someone else's computer. Why is it in the mobile world where we are expected to be mobile, are now extremely locked down? Lets not forget programs where you need to "deactivate" it before uninstalling or you lose that ""unrecoverable"" "seat". Oh god I hope my computer doesn't die from a massive hardware failure such as getting dropped, or a battery shorting out and starting a fire. BlueIris... Melodyne... You're not cheap, and I'm looking at you.

How long until Windows home turns to subscription? How long until all your work is done in an extremely bloated browser that eats memory because "its there to use". The browser will become your OS. Also, don't forget newer browser versions are using their own DNS servers ignoring the system's DNS servers and throwing constant  :scared: if you turn that "feature" off - if you can turn that off. Welcome to your new sandbox. Its 1" deep with coarse sand that doesn't work well with playing in the sand. Here's your crappy sand toys. You will like it and pay for it because its your only option. Welcome to the modern internet.

:horse:

*sigh*
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 17, 2021, 03:44:50 pm
I totally hate this modern web experience.
[...] newer browser versions are using their own DNS servers ignoring the system's DNS servers and throwing constant  :scared: if you turn that "feature" off [...]

Ah, I didn't know that.  I had been wondering at some of the behaviour I observed in my browser after setting up a local ad blocking DNS... 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 17, 2021, 03:48:20 pm
Should WhatsApp be added to the list of cloud based services that failed?

The whole "bait and switch" business model of some services is becoming only too apparent:



It is a business model favoured by drug dealers everywhere!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on January 17, 2021, 04:18:37 pm
It is a business model favoured by drug dealers everywhere!

There are only two industries that call their customers "users": illegal drugs and software.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 17, 2021, 04:34:11 pm
I totally hate this modern web experience.

:blah: !!!RANT INCOMING!!!  :blah:

Just recently I was looking at a wiki style page and wanted to see how they did their div layouts (so I can move from using tables - which work wonderfully without tons of css for laying out data). My intention was duplicating it. I knew it was bad, but I didn't just grasp how bad it actually was until I looked at the referenced assets.

836KB for 1 CSS, 160K for another other CSS, plus 9 other CSS files I didn't bother with, 600K for a javascript library, another 150K for some other ad tracking javascript library (thank god I have scripting turned off!). I was nearly at a 2MB download before I even got to the html, and images.

When your bloat far exceeds the content on your page (including images), you have really gone wrong. Also you've done something wrong when nothing loads with scripts off (93% of sites I have attempted to visit - Yes, at one point I did count).

Anyway this is why I always keep old versions an use old versions over the newest stuff. Remember in the early 2000s when Adobe first moved all their programs to the 'cloud' such as authentication for photoshop? Remember when Adobe had that masssssssssive licensing server outage that resulted in so many people not being able to use Photoshop? Yea, I do. I made a lot of money off that "fiasco" because I still had Photoshop 5 LE, Gimp, & MS paint and I was able to get people results if they didn't require extremely complex things. A lot of times not the exact results they wanted, but results they could compromise on, and could use to deliver. I was insanely busy for 2 weeks, even after the whole "fiasco" was corrected. Why? My software just worked when everyone else was crippled by someone else's computer. Why is it in the mobile world where we are expected to be mobile, are now extremely locked down? Lets not forget programs where you need to "deactivate" it before uninstalling or you lose that ""unrecoverable"" "seat". Oh god I hope my computer doesn't die from a massive hardware failure such as getting dropped, or a battery shorting out and starting a fire. BlueIris... Melodyne... You're not cheap, and I'm looking at you.

How long until Windows home turns to subscription? How long until all your work is done in an extremely bloated browser that eats memory because "its there to use". The browser will become your OS. Also, don't forget newer browser versions are using their own DNS servers ignoring the system's DNS servers and throwing constant  :scared: if you turn that "feature" off - if you can turn that off. Welcome to your new sandbox. Its 1" deep with coarse sand that doesn't work well with playing in the sand. Here's your crappy sand toys. You will like it and pay for it because its your only option. Welcome to the modern internet.

:horse:

*sigh*

LMAO agreed.

I hate to disappoint you further but Microsoft are working on Electron based apps to replace most of the desktop office apps at the moment, starting with Outlook. So basically you're going to end up with 20 separate browsers each with a 50 meg stack of shit on top of it. If that's not bad enough it's written in TypeScript so the stack sort of looks like:

idea -> piles of shitty libraries -> typescript -> web assembly -> v8 engine -> chromium -> OS API -> hardware API.

I am guilty of this myself if I'm honest as well going back about 10 years when I slid jQuery into something. By the time all the plugins had been installed that were required such as jQuery UI and all the ancillary shit it was landing at around 2 megs of JS. At this point I decided enough was enough and wrote a 9k library that did nearly everything required. But no one understood it because it was functional programming based so it was discarded in favour of something people could google rather than understand in about 30 minutes if they read the nice fucking manual I wrote.  :palm:. About then I decided to say fuck it, I don't want anything to do with the modern web and relegated myself back to the realm of systems programming where I reside today and have no intention of changing.

One reason I'm liking Apple at the moment is they actually value native applications.

On windows, everything is going subscription. Windows Home is just that first line of coke free to get you in. This is followed by Office family and possibly windows 10 pro when you realise you need one of those little features. If you're me you use an MSDN key for Office and scrape old win 10 pro serials off PCs on the way to the tip  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on January 17, 2021, 04:43:31 pm
I totally hate this modern web experience.
[...] newer browser versions are using their own DNS servers ignoring the system's DNS servers and throwing constant  :scared: if you turn that "feature" off [...]

Ah, I didn't know that.  I had been wondering at some of the behaviour I observed in my browser after setting up a local ad blocking DNS...

DoH, DoT and company. Those new protocols are meant to hide the content of your DNS requests, but they create several new problems - improvement for the worse (a topic for a new thread). However, they can help in some specific situations to keep your web browsing more private.

DoH in Firefox: network.trr.mode
  0 off by default
  2 DoH first, regular DNS as fallback
  3 DoH only
  5 explictly off

IIRC, Mozilla has changed the default value to "2" for US users last year.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on January 17, 2021, 04:59:02 pm
I am guilty of this myself if I'm honest as well going back about 10 years when I slid jQuery into something. By the time all the plugins had been installed that were required such as jQuery UI and all the ancillary shit it was landing at around 2 megs of JS. At this point I decided enough was enough and wrote a 9k library that did nearly everything required. But no one understood it because it was functional programming based so it was discarded in favour of something people could google rather than understand in about 30 minutes if they read the nice fucking manual I wrote.

You shall not over-deliver! ;) That's the reason why we need high speed internet for watching ads with some scarce crumbs of information sprinkled in between.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: AlexJackson on January 17, 2021, 06:46:46 pm
LMAO agreed.

I hate to disappoint you further but Microsoft are working on Electron based apps to replace most of the desktop office apps at the moment, starting with Outlook. So basically you're going to end up with 20 separate browsers each with a 50 meg stack of shit on top of it. If that's not bad enough it's written in TypeScript so the stack sort of looks like:

idea -> piles of shitty libraries -> typescript -> web assembly -> v8 engine -> chromium -> OS API -> hardware API.

I am guilty of this myself if I'm honest as well going back about 10 years when I slid jQuery into something. By the time all the plugins had been installed that were required such as jQuery UI and all the ancillary shit it was landing at around 2 megs of JS. At this point I decided enough was enough and wrote a 9k library that did nearly everything required. But no one understood it because it was functional programming based so it was discarded in favour of something people could google rather than understand in about 30 minutes if they read the nice fucking manual I wrote.  :palm:. About then I decided to say fuck it, I don't want anything to do with the modern web and relegated myself back to the realm of systems programming where I reside today and have no intention of changing.

One reason I'm liking Apple at the moment is they actually value native applications.

On windows, everything is going subscription. Windows Home is just that first line of coke free to get you in. This is followed by Office family and possibly windows 10 pro when you realise you need one of those little features. If you're me you use an MSDN key for Office and scrape old win 10 pro serials off PCs on the way to the tip  :-DD

Yup... I seen this coming a mile away, and had always setup my systems to function without an internet connection. Well frankly because back then, we were poor and the internet wasn't a "required" utility like it is now so it would get shut off periodically so I learned early on not to depend on it. Even now, I'm still rocking Office 2003 with the office 97 shortcut bar (removed in office 03). I'm also still on windows7 with no intention of going to 10. I hate win7 for its online feature creep (such as: games for windows will block your game from loading if it cant talk to the MS game servers to get info on that game. Running a game will also invoke gameux.dll, which itself will run the game after it gets metadata and it doesn't fail gracefully and wont load your desired game. After a number of attempts to run the game, the game will eventually start even if you invoke it from the run command. You will have to do this everytime unless you jump through hoops to ****actually**** disable it by replacing the file with a "null" dll of the same name and making it read-only). The only thing I'd get win10 for is for MS Flight Sim 2020 but even then its a long shot.

You don't still happen to have that "discarded" setup do you?



You shall not over-deliver! ;) That's the reason why we need high speed internet for watching ads with some scarce crumbs of information sprinkled in between.

That's the purpose of modern media. Gotta sell that advertising slot. And Alphabet & Co being Alphabet (advertising agency) they're throwing funding at firefox, and developing chromium so they can for all intents and purposes push new "standards" onto everyone else. Guess this is what we get when everyone depends on an advertising agency for their software needs.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on January 17, 2021, 07:04:04 pm
I hate to disappoint you further but Microsoft are working on Electron based apps...
That's more or less expected... after Teams success  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 17, 2021, 07:16:32 pm
What success is this you speak of?  :-DD (I am currently having to deal with a consultancy that uses it so I’m basically getting my dick burned off by my horrible corp Dell XPS for 8 hours a day which runs Slack and Teams all day).

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on January 18, 2021, 01:56:20 pm
That's more or less expected... after Teams success  :-DD
You mean how they stuck a crappy version of everything in one app so nothing works as well as it could while hogging resources for basic functionality?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on January 27, 2021, 02:25:03 pm
We can force you either pay a premium or allows to use just something for free because

Quote
does not meet the hurdle rate that GitLab expects

https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2021/01/26/new-gitlab-product-subscription-model/

Is it new trend about to start?  >:D

Also, Atlassian has killed on-premises licenses...
Quote
New server license sales will end on February 2, 2021 and support will end on February 2, 2024. Choose cloud or Data Center instead.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 27, 2021, 02:31:07 pm
Atlassian cloud is a complete rotten ball sack of a product as well. DC edition is expensive. I spy market gap  :popcorn:

If someone basically built JIRA open source then they’d be gone overnight.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on January 27, 2021, 02:46:50 pm
We can force you either pay a premium or allows to use just something for free because

Quote
does not meet the hurdle rate that GitLab expects

https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2021/01/26/new-gitlab-product-subscription-model/

Is it new trend about to start?  >:D

Also, Atlassian has killed on-premises licenses...
Quote
New server license sales will end on February 2, 2021 and support will end on February 2, 2024. Choose cloud or Data Center instead.
"Does not meet the hurdle rate" is a nice way of saying "pay up, motherfuckers!", especially to those already stuck in the ecosystem.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Mr. Scram on January 27, 2021, 02:50:01 pm
What I've always wondered is what happens when the market saturates. The whole point of making everything cloud is getting a steady revenue stream which ultimately means making more money. Neither companies nor people have endless amounts of money to spend, so there is a point the available funds get spread too thin and no one is making money. Do we enter an endless cycle of companies going bust and ecosystems popping from under people?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 27, 2021, 04:49:16 pm
What I've always wondered is what happens when the market saturates. The whole point of making everything cloud is getting a steady revenue stream which ultimately means making more money. Neither companies nor people have endless amounts of money to spend, so there is a point the available funds get spread too thin and no one is making money. Do we enter an endless cycle of companies going bust and ecosystems popping from under people?

Each individual eventually "saturates" with the number of services that they are able to subscribe to.  They will end up looking for ways to cut the monthly costs.   They will discover (or re-discover) the benefits of owning things outright rather than subscribing to them.  Manufacturers will make products to satisfy that market.

Eventually this should all balance out...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on January 27, 2021, 05:11:34 pm
That’s starting to occur now. Also it gets to the point where “feature momentum” starts to cost your users time to relearn things. Typically most people are paying for something that works and stays consistent. But this conflicts with the feature laden pitches to attract new users from other competitors.

The canonical example of this is Google as they kept breaking Gsuite badly so people started moving to O365. Now Microsoft are losing users to Google so they’re doing the same and innovating quickly. This lead to broken Office desktop apps.

These two outcomes balance out to fairly large companies I know who are deploying libreoffice and no collaboration stuff other than email.

This is quite funny because I work and have worked for SaaS / cloud companies for years. It’s a fad and it’ll die again one day. But the cash is good.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 27, 2021, 05:35:33 pm

Once upon a time, making horseshoes was a good living.  Everything is a fad, seen from far enough away!  :D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: DimitriP on February 09, 2021, 05:35:06 pm
Quote
These two outcomes balance out to fairly large companies I know who are deploying libreoffice and no collaboration stuff other than email.

How can you run a meeting  without video conferencing, a few digital white boards and a chat window with reaction emoticons ?
What do these people do , just talk and email each other? 
Madness! :)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on February 10, 2021, 11:38:32 am
"Well, this is officially it for daydream. Google has shut down most of the servers."

https://www.reddit.com/r/daydream/comments/le3wlu/goodbye_daydream/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/daydream/comments/le3wlu/goodbye_daydream/)

https://www.reddit.com/r/daydream/comments/lfno5z/did_they_shut_down_the_daydream_servers/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/daydream/comments/lfno5z/did_they_shut_down_the_daydream_servers/)

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on February 17, 2021, 02:30:34 pm
Out of the blue, game developer of Terraria banned from all Google services, including gmail, and noone to talk to, only unrelated automated answers.

Quote
If you're all in on the Google ecosystem, a Google account ban means you lose access to your entire email account; all the pictures you've ever taken; your cell phone service; your ability to communicate with friends and family; all your 2FA accounts; anything that uses Google OAuth; your app development business; your YouTube business and all your followers; your purchased apps, games, movies, music, and books; and all your contacts, documents, bookmarks, and notes.
Source:  https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/terraria-developer-cancels-google-stadia-port-after-youtube-account-ban/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on February 17, 2021, 02:40:35 pm
Google are especially a massive shit show at this sort of stuff. I refuse to deal with them.

A while ago I had the task of provisioning a GSuite account for a small business (against my recommendations). The provisioning broke and absolutely no one, even at Google's business support, could work out how to fix it. Also surprisingly it turned out that for the first 30 days after provisioning you can't use YouTube (!!!) unless you pay $30 to them as a deposit. This was interesting to work around because the form then immediately asked me to enter an amount in £. They are on Office 365 now which is absolutely 100% fine.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: CatalinaWOW on February 17, 2021, 06:13:53 pm

Once upon a time, making horseshoes was a good living.  Everything is a fad, seen from far enough away!  :D

Fortunately for those of you making a living on cloud services and other element of this fad, making horseshoes is still a good living.  Not as many people as it once was, but a surprisingly large number of people.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on February 17, 2021, 06:42:20 pm

Once upon a time, making horseshoes was a good living.  Everything is a fad, seen from far enough away!  :D

Fortunately for those of you making a living on cloud services and other element of this fad, making horseshoes is still a good living.  Not as many people as it once was, but a surprisingly large number of people.

Sure, cloud computing has valid use cases (just like horseshoes today!).

Sooner or later, someone will launch a minimum configuration "Freedom Server" appliance that links your phones, laptops, and PCs, and so on -  runs your own email, web presence, etc. - i.e. your own private little cloud...




Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: thinkfat on February 17, 2021, 06:53:39 pm

Once upon a time, making horseshoes was a good living.  Everything is a fad, seen from far enough away!  :D

Fortunately for those of you making a living on cloud services and other element of this fad, making horseshoes is still a good living.  Not as many people as it once was, but a surprisingly large number of people.

Sure, cloud computing has valid use cases (just like horseshoes today!).

Sooner or later, someone will launch a minimum configuration "Freedom Server" appliance that links your phones, laptops, and PCs, and so on -  runs your own email, web presence, etc. - i.e. your own private little cloud...

Like, nextcloud?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on February 17, 2021, 07:05:10 pm
I had not heard of Nextcloud, but that is kind of the direction I was thinking -  except sold as a hardware appliance that you just "plug and play". 

It isn't obvious to me if Nextcloud provide apps that run on Android and Apple to sync up smartphones?

[Edit]  Looking at the typical modern low information density web site, after nearly wearing out the bearings in my scroll wheel, I found that indeed they do provide these apps.   I'll check this out a little further, thanks for pointing it out! 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: thinkfat on February 17, 2021, 07:27:07 pm
I'm running a local instance on my Nas. For now only to store stuff. Haven't yet tried any of the other cloud services.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on March 02, 2021, 08:00:17 pm
SmartThings starts saying goodbye to its hardware: https://staceyoniot.com/smartthings-starts-saying-goodbye-to-its-hardware/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on May 26, 2022, 03:28:59 pm
Thank you for continuing to use one of our earliest Kindle devices. While you can continue reading on your device, as of August 17, 2022,
store functionality will no longer be available. This change only affects certain devices introduced 10+ years ago (listed below).
As of August 17, you'll no longer be able to browse, buy, or borrow books directly from these Kindle devices. As always, you'll be able to
browse, buy, and borrow books on other supported devices or through amazon.com/ebooks.


https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/uw7p0z/store_being_disabled_on_10_year_old_devices/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/uw7p0z/store_being_disabled_on_10_year_old_devices/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on May 26, 2022, 04:32:22 pm
Thank you for continuing to use one of our earliest Kindle devices. While you can continue reading on your device, as of August 17, 2022,
store functionality will no longer be available. This change only affects certain devices introduced 10+ years ago (listed below).
As of August 17, you'll no longer be able to browse, buy, or borrow books directly from these Kindle devices. As always, you'll be able to
browse, buy, and borrow books on other supported devices or through amazon.com/ebooks.


https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/uw7p0z/store_being_disabled_on_10_year_old_devices/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/uw7p0z/store_being_disabled_on_10_year_old_devices/)

Well, this is new paradigm, like your books collection (imagine huge book shelf full of your valued books), suddenly gone because someone said so.  :-DD

Welcome to new econom ... eh .. world order.  >:D

(https://images.unsplash.com/photo-1507842217343-583bb7270b66?ixlib=rb-1.2.1&raw_url=true&q=80&fm=jpg&crop=entropy&cs=tinysrgb&ixid=MnwxMjA3fDB8MHxwaG90by1wYWdlfHx8fGVufDB8fHx8&auto=format&fit=crop&w=1890)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on May 26, 2022, 06:31:02 pm
Thank you for continuing to use one of our earliest Kindle devices. While you can continue reading on your device, as of August 17, 2022,
store functionality will no longer be available. This change only affects certain devices introduced 10+ years ago (listed below).
As of August 17, you'll no longer be able to browse, buy, or borrow books directly from these Kindle devices. As always, you'll be able to
browse, buy, and borrow books on other supported devices or through amazon.com/ebooks.


https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/uw7p0z/store_being_disabled_on_10_year_old_devices/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/uw7p0z/store_being_disabled_on_10_year_old_devices/)

If you look at the details that's not so bad. According to the link, you'll still be able to read books on it, access your library on it, access new purchased and borrowed books on it. You just won't be able to browse the store and buy books with it - you'd need to, say, use a PC browser to buy books but then they are in your library and you can read them. And for that you'll get 30% off a replacement and $40 in ebook credit. Wish I had one to take advantage :)

Well, not really. I wouldn't mind the sweetener but I am happy with my non-Amazon reader from which I couldn't buy a book even if I wanted to. I just use a browser on my PC and push whatever through Calibre to remove the DRM en route.

However, as EOLing goes, this is a bit of a soft landing. I think it would be counterproductive to use this as the rod to beat on the back of deliberate obsolescence.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on July 08, 2022, 11:28:26 am
Not software though, but still relevant, and I guess one day in the future "we" will tell youngsters that in the old days, people could literally bought songs/movies physically and owned it for lifetime.


PlayStation Store will remove customers' purchased movies

Quote :
"In a move that will undoubtedly draw severe criticism, movies from Studio Canal that customers have purchased on the PlayStation Store will be completely removed next month.

The legal notice is published on PlayStation's German and Austrian websites where it reads (translated):

As of August 31, 2022, due to our evolving licensing agreements with content providers, you will no longer be able to view your previously purchased Studio Canal content and it will be removed from your video library.

    We greatly appreciate your continued support.
    
Thank you
    
PlayStation Store


In other words, customers will lose access to movies such as Apocalypse Now, Django, John Wick, La La Land, Saw and The Hunger Games that they purchased on the PlayStation Store. Not rented, but purchased.
"

Source -> https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1657022591 (https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1657022591)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 08, 2022, 11:44:12 am
This is why I steal all my content.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on July 08, 2022, 12:41:51 pm
This is why I steal all my content.

In the old days, its called getting & owning your own harvest, sort of like Robin Hood thingy.  :-DD

Well, I guess you heard it too, this so called global era/movements of clear stated goal which is ... "own nothing and be happy" ...  >:D , and reminds me of this below ...  :scared:

(https://studiousguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Feudal-Pyramid-of-Power.jpg)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 08, 2022, 12:58:46 pm
The trick is providing IT services to the king and noble classes. They like their invisible gowns.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on July 08, 2022, 01:37:46 pm
The trick is providing IT services to the king and noble classes. They like their invisible gowns.

Ah ... smart lad.  >:D  :clap:  :-+
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on July 08, 2022, 05:37:53 pm
What I've always wondered is what happens when the market saturates. The whole point of making everything cloud is getting a steady revenue stream which ultimately means making more money.

The point for the software creators is a steady income, the point for the users is more pain free maintenance and a better security model.

I think most commercial software will move to the subscription model and into web-apps primarily designed to be cloud hosted, with version pinning for who need it and with subscriptions for localized "cloud" server farms which can be disconnected from the internet sold separately. The advantages for both sides are too large, traditional software sales models and traditional user operating systems are antiquated.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 08, 2022, 05:47:40 pm
The maintenance and security model of the cloud is definitely better. I've spent a lot of time over the last few years dealing with clueless clown managed service providers which is realistically the only alternative for most small to medium businesses these days.

Just today I was on a call which was a fucking shit show and a half. I can't even post it here because it was such a bad compliance issue it was reportable even though I'm a subcontractor of a 3rd party of a 3rd party  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 08, 2022, 07:25:28 pm
I don't know if the cloud model is better really. But you sure sound annoyed. I got it that it makes good money, but maybe you should consider changing fields? ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 08, 2022, 08:11:36 pm
The model changes from the vendor selling a product to a buyer, to the buyer paying the vendor for something that might turn up soon. Why should the vendor have a god-given revenue stream at the expense of customers? Surely, the correct thing is to produce something that someone wants to buy, and then sell it to them. Buyers are not investors, but the subscription model makes them be one. And it makes them effectively an employer as well.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 08, 2022, 08:15:28 pm
Sometime they offer a service not a product. Why wouldn’t it be a subscription?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 08, 2022, 08:54:13 pm
That's exactly what it is. The only difference to hiring a programmer to write an application for you is that you don't get to tell them what to make. Personally, I don't want to hire anyone; I want a product that works and that's it. If there is an update or better version I can choose then whether I want to buy that too or not.

A real service, such as providing cloud facilities, is OK, but a product? Its worse that that: not only do you not get a say in what the product does, it will change from under your feet as the whim takes the developer. They don't give a stuff because they've already got your money, and they don't have to worry about making something someone wants in order to have a decent lifestyle (unless they really screw up for a lengthy period). They haven't, and won't invest in their own company but get the customer to do that.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: CatalinaWOW on July 08, 2022, 09:14:35 pm
One of the best examples of what dunkemhigh is saying is the MS Office Suite.  It met my needs as of 97.  I don't need the few new features that have been added since, and I actively dislike the new user interface.  Fortunately it was effectively a product back then and I can still use the older version.  If it had moved to the cloud I would be paying continuously to use something that worked no better for me than what came before and is actually less usable. 

Sorry that software programmers need an income stream.  But it is no different than hardware designers, except those designing hardware find it more difficult to convert their work into a subscription.  Though John Deere and others are making moves in that direction.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 08, 2022, 09:32:06 pm
A real service, such as providing cloud facilities, is OK, but a product? Its worse that that: not only do you not get a say in what the product does, it will change from under your feet as the whim takes the developer. They don't give a stuff because they've already got your money, and they don't have to worry about making something someone wants in order to have a decent lifestyle (unless they really screw up for a lengthy period). They haven't, and won't invest in their own company but get the customer to do that.

Well that's not always true. Sometimes the value that you derive from the software comes from abilities it can't have in a fully disconnected system. For example most financial software these days is about communication and collaboration and that's impossible without a control point and/or remote services. And believe me when you have a pool of say 500 different services to consume, centralising that maintenance effort and the integrations is what the customer is paying for and that's a permanent ongoing effort not a buy it and take it home one. Most businesses work at least partially in that space these days.  And then along comes MS Office as mentioned by CatalinaWOW. People want software that integrates with that and again the best integration point is the Office API which means centralising that somewhere else, which means Microsoft now has an ongoing maintenance commitment as well. This snowballs into real operating costs at which point someone has to pay or it's not going to happen. And the payment is cheap for the value derived which is the key business metric. Typical seat cost vs return is huge in some sectors. The other option is to not use the SaaS platforms out there and lose the return entirely. Ergo, there are places for this sort of software which are mostly unavoidable.

Now I will say that the Office interface does absolutely suck donkey balls. It has been thoroughly compromised over the last few years as it has crap stapled all over it on O365. But some of the functional stuff out there it does there is no alternative for so we're stuck with it.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on July 08, 2022, 10:11:57 pm
Bitrotted malware bait is not really an option for most companies ... they are on the update mill regardless.

Niche boutique software for engineers with a decade of life and negligible attack surface is the exception, not the rule. Even for engineers, the super-complex 100 seat CAD software with a ton of CVEs and engineers opening files from e-mail all day every day are where the money is at. There's niches for single purchase software, but don't confuse your niches with proper software ;)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on July 09, 2022, 04:31:50 am
One of the best examples of what dunkemhigh is saying is the MS Office Suite.  It met my needs as of 97.  I don't need the few new features that have been added since, and I actively dislike the new user interface.  Fortunately it was effectively a product back then and I can still use the older version.  If it had moved to the cloud I would be paying continuously to use something that worked no better for me than what came before and is actually less usable. 

Sorry that software programmers need an income stream.  But it is no different than hardware designers, except those designing hardware find it more difficult to convert their work into a subscription.  Though John Deere and others are making moves in that direction.

I read 2019 was the last perpetual version
https://appuals.com/microsoft-office-2019-will-be-the-last-offline-productivity-suite-users-will-have-to-adopt-to-office-365-after-support-ends/ (https://appuals.com/microsoft-office-2019-will-be-the-last-offline-productivity-suite-users-will-have-to-adopt-to-office-365-after-support-ends/)

But it looks like they changed their mind and released the next edition in 2021:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/office365/troubleshoot/installation/office-perpetual-volume-license-products (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/office365/troubleshoot/installation/office-perpetual-volume-license-products)

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3340227/don-t-waste-your-money-on-office-2019-says-microsoft.html (https://www.computerworld.com/article/3340227/don-t-waste-your-money-on-office-2019-says-microsoft.html)
Quote
Don’t waste your money on Office 2019 (says Microsoft)
Office 2019 has been out just a few months, so naturally Microsoft has a big marketing push urging you to … NOT buy it?
Steven J. Vaughan-NicholsBy Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols
Computerworld | 13 FEBRUARY 2019 18:03 GMT

We’ve all had a chuckle at the expense of Microsoft Office, with the ’90s debuts of Bob and Clippy being particularly hilarious (at least in hindsight). But now it is Microsoft itself that is making fun of Office 2019, the latest version of its iconic office suite. Although Office 2019 was just released this past September, Microsoft is urging you to replace it — and your older versions of Office — with Office 365.

And it’s not just in Microsoft’s “Twins Challenge” ads. Jared Spataro, Microsoft’s corporate vice president for Office and Windows group, comes right out and says that * Office 2019’s applications are “frozen in time. They don’t ever get updated with new features,” while “Office 365 includes fully installed Office applications ... and these apps keep getting better :bullshit: over time, with new capabilities delivered every month.” Wait, what happened to Office service packs? Well, it appears there won’t be any. I’m sure the line of users wanting to sign up for those “new capabilities”  :bullshit: is already forming. Or maybe not. What exactly can you add to an office suite these days, anyway? As far as I’m concerned, the last worthwhile “new capabilities” came with Office 2003. In the software industry, a 16-year drought for killer apps was once inconceivable.

What does Microsoft’s marketing push against itself mean? It means that it is moving from being a product company to being a service company. Microsoft doesn’t want to sell you bits on a floppy, CD, DVD or download anymore. Instead, it wants you to rent a service from it forever and a day. It’s been coming for some time. Back in 2015, I pointed out that Microsoft made only 10% of its revenue from Windows sales. In Microsoft’s last quarter, Microsoft reported that its Office revenue increased 11%, which was driven by Office 365 Commercial revenue growth of 34%. Microsoft is continuing to move its business model to where the money is. And the money is in cloud-based services.

You can see this in what might first look to you like two unrelated developments. First, Microsoft gave up on developing its Edge web browser. It’s replacing Edge’s internals with Google’s open-source Chromium code. Second, Microsoft is cutting off support for Internet Explorer (IE) 10 years sooner than expected. And, even more amazing, Microsoft senior cybersecurity architect Chris Jackson actually blogged that Microsoft wants you to stop using IE and start using “modern”  :bullshit: browsers instead. And what are modern browsers? They’re Chrome-based browsers.

The upshot: Microsoft no longer cares if you’re using Microsoft bits on your computer. It wants you to use archrival Google’s Chrome instead. Heck, a Microsoft web developer told Mozilla’s developers on Twitter that they should throw in the towel on Firefox in favor of Chromium. Why? Because, looking ahead, Microsoft wants to cash in on services and not products. That’s one of the reasons why Microsoft has been embracing open-source software. Not only is that where its enterprise customers are now, but if you’re offering services instead of packages, you don’t care so much about having control of the bits. What you care about is delivering great services that will keep customers coming. And that’s what Microsoft thinks it has in Office 365.
The next natural step from here is Windows as a service. :bullshit:  I don’t know when Microsoft will finally switch over to a Chrome OS-style Windows, but I do know it’s coming.

I am, in the meantime, certain we won’t ever see another standalone version of Office. It’s done.

Quote
Office 2019’s applications are “frozen in time. They don’t ever get updated with new features,[/b]” while “Office 365 includes fully installed Office applications

*That is what I want. To be left alone. I don't want any fancy changes apart from features but only when I need them not just stuffed in my face like that distracting "Microsoft tell me" that appeared after an update that they placed on the ribbon in the middle 6? words wide where I can't help not see it but no setting to move or hide it. I found by making enough empty tabs it pushes "tell me" and share" to the right and out of the way where it can no longer be seen.

I am not signing up for anything. I just want to pay for things, alter and make it work in the way I want and when I am happy and confident with it I just want it to be left alone apart from security fixes but I can't trust them to do that I'rather do it manually. I don't want the appearance changed when they feel like. I find that more like interference.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 09, 2022, 06:37:10 pm
What I'm wondering is whether there is still some sizeable market for software that is neither cloud- nor subscription-based.
It kinda looks like you have this crap on one side, and then purely open-source software on the other side, and no room  left for anything else.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 09, 2022, 06:55:48 pm
Depends if you like to eat or not.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on July 09, 2022, 07:43:00 pm
[...]
I read 2019 was the last perpetual version
[...]

Older versions of Office are still perfectly viable, e.g. Office 2010.  I expect Office 2019 to be viable until 2030!

Adobe Photoshop CS6 (last perpetual version) is also still perfectly viable today, depending on what you do with it.  The latest iterations of the subscription product has begun to actually remove features (such as 3D capability), presumably so customers can be forced to subscribe to two products where one would have been sufficient in the past...

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 09, 2022, 08:18:49 pm
I have the Adobe digital photography sub. Lightroom and Photoshop. I don't mind paying for it and I benefit from it.  It's 1.5 pints of beer a month  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 09, 2022, 08:32:38 pm
Quote
It's 1.5 pints of beer a month

For a single product. Multiply that by all the products you use, and those that you only use periodically, and it gets to be quite a sum. Should you stumble across hard times that will be all gone - it's like living on credit and then finding yourself without income or savings.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 09, 2022, 08:42:57 pm
Trick is to make sure there aren't hard times which I've more than done. Plus I have an exit plan for this as well. My total outgoings on software subs are £39 a month for everyone in my family so it's not terrible :-//
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 09, 2022, 09:10:44 pm
Well, that's you set then. Pity you're not the only person in the world.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 09, 2022, 10:16:33 pm
It's not a closed market where this is the only option. There are other products out there, some of which have no capital or monthly cost.

Really this entire thread is about people getting pissy about not getting something for free. The capital vs monthly TCO of Adobe is the same. Office is fractionally more unless you bag the family edition which is quite frankly a fucking bargain. But you get 1TB storage with it  :-//
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 09, 2022, 10:31:51 pm
It's not a closed market yet, that's true. But that's the direction everyone is going. The more they are seen to be successful the more others want to join them. Microsoft missed the boat as usual, but once they saw what others were doing they wanted in, and look at them now. Eventually, it will be the de facto deal with little to no alternative.

The only potential way out of that is to refuse to join, early enough that weight of numbers can achieve anything.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 09, 2022, 10:40:14 pm
Actually Microsoft were there before everyone. They had their Application Service Provider model. I was an early subscriber to that at a major consultancy.

The problem is that everyone is evaluating this from a home power user perspective really. For any business it's simply an operating cost that gets pushed down to the customers along with the electricity bill and the salaries and that's not even a notable fraction of those! For lesser home users, they don't even need any software.

Everyone has pretty much already joined. It's over now.

Of course you can use LibreOffice if you want still. But I refuse because of horrible bugs like the taking 2 minutes to open a calc file if a printer is turned off (yes that exists)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 10, 2022, 01:04:26 am
Quote
For any business it's simply an operating cost that gets pushed down to the customers...

Yes and often beneficial to PAYG for cash flow and other reasons.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: free_electron on July 13, 2022, 10:29:03 pm
BMW is now charging for options such as heated seats, satnav and others. monthly subscription... They are experimenting in the Korean market.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 13, 2022, 10:38:16 pm
So you can pay for heated seats only in winter months? ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bd139 on July 14, 2022, 06:21:28 am
Now that’s some MBA class thinking  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: free_electron on July 14, 2022, 01:53:08 pm
So you can pay for heated seats only in winter months? ;D
if they are smart : pay in summer to be able to turn them off  >:D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 14, 2022, 06:42:27 pm
So you can pay for heated seats only in winter months? ;D
if they are smart : pay in summer to be able to turn them off  >:D

Jokes aside, paying only when you actually use a feature would at least be a reason for making it subscription-based, so make the subscription flexible. If the granularity is 1 year or more, it's just bullshit.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TimFox on July 14, 2022, 07:52:06 pm
I'm old enough to remember when the US telephone system (except for limited regions with a different company) was a monopoly operated by the old AT&T.
All equipment was rented, and the company spent a whole lot of legal time to keep customer-owned equipment away from the network.
The upside was that, to minimize repair costs, the customer equipment was heavily engineered, very robust, and reliable.
The downside was that innovation at the customer end was restricted to pink telephones for teenaged girls.
The baby thrown out with the bathwater was the well-respected Bell Labs.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Gregg on July 14, 2022, 08:15:52 pm
How soon until heated seat bypass kits are on aliexpress?  :clap:
I really think that anyone with a bit of automotive electrical knowledge could figure out a way to disconnect the heater elements and make them work the old fashioned way (without the need for the computer control).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nigelwright7557 on July 14, 2022, 08:51:04 pm
And yet there still are people who are OK with eagle being moved to a subscription only system.  :palm:

I guess those people never had a chance to imagine, that one day, suddenly they lost their access to their hard worked circuit or pcb designs, just because a leader of a country said so.

Yep, even they're stored locally, as the need to be onlined in order to launch the program, means nothing to prevent the software to lock down all your files once it successfully contacted the mothership.  :-DD

There will always be other options from free to extortionate.


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 15, 2022, 03:41:04 am
What I'm wondering is whether there is still some sizeable market for software that is neither cloud- nor subscription-based.
It kinda looks like you have this crap on one side, and then purely open-source software on the other side, and no room  left for anything else.
Not for bulk software, that's for sure.

Tools, I'm not sure.  I am hoping that the cloud connectivity requirement is like the dongles of old: a passing fad.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Miyuki on July 15, 2022, 08:28:25 am
How soon until heated seat bypass kits are on aliexpress?  :clap:
I really think that anyone with a bit of automotive electrical knowledge could figure out a way to disconnect the heater elements and make them work the old fashioned way (without the need for the computer control).
I expect they will have some catch in EULA (or what they use  ::) ) and propper detection system, and when detecting any disturbance in a computer network, they will just brick the entire car.
And all will be perfectly legal.
Because it is for your safety.
As they always call all anti-repair efforts.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 15, 2022, 04:20:44 pm
It always surprises me how humans are utterly willing to deal with products they paid for working against them, not with them, and even praise the products nevertheless.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on July 15, 2022, 08:37:49 pm
It always surprises me how humans are utterly willing to deal with products they paid for working against them, not with them, and even praise the products nevertheless.

Those people and those products deserve each other...   The problem becomes real when there are no alternatives available for people with other goals in life than diverting their incomes to subscription based versions of what you used to be able to own...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 15, 2022, 08:43:36 pm
They do not see the part that works against them, and mostly feel the benefit of doing what (almost) everyone else does. Peer pressure, social validation, etc.
That's how you sell crap to people and manage to make them feel happy.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on July 16, 2022, 06:58:56 am
They do not see the part that works against them, and mostly feel the benefit of doing what (almost) everyone else does. Peer pressure, social validation, etc.
That's how you sell crap to people and manage to make them feel happy.

Maybe they are happy...  who are we to judge?

The issue is that we also want to be happy, by not buying our underwear on a subscription basis!  :D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 16, 2022, 01:12:55 pm
Yu vill own notzhing, and yu vill be happy.
 - Uncle Klaus
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2022, 07:05:37 pm
Point is, if more people didn't feel the urge to be validated by others all the time, none of this crap would be happening. (Including all the victimization stuff as well, btw.)

I'm still not sure if better education would help, or if not needing this constant social validation is something that you just acquire by yourself somehow, and no amount of education is going to change this. It's a complex matter.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2022, 07:06:22 pm
Yu vill own notzhing, and yu vill be happy.
 - Uncle Klaus

Yeah. As he also said once in french: "il ne faut pas affoir peur!" (That was more or less about mass surveillance and social credit.)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on July 17, 2022, 06:05:27 am
Point is, if more people didn't feel the urge to be validated by others all the time, none of this crap would be happening. (Including all the victimization stuff as well, btw.)

I'm still not sure if better education would help, or if not needing this constant social validation is something that you just acquire by yourself somehow, and no amount of education is going to change this. It's a complex matter.

It seems we can be a victim of our own instinctive behaviour.  - which gets used against us, or at least used to the advantage of others!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 17, 2022, 06:45:19 pm
Point is, if more people didn't feel the urge to be validated by others all the time, none of this crap would be happening. (Including all the victimization stuff as well, btw.)

I'm still not sure if better education would help, or if not needing this constant social validation is something that you just acquire by yourself somehow, and no amount of education is going to change this. It's a complex matter.

It seems we can be a victim of our own instinctive behaviour.  - which gets used against us, or at least used to the advantage of others!

I think the need for social validation *is* largely an instinctive behavior. For a very social species such as ours, it likely optimizes survival. At least that was once the case and we still carry this baggage.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: thinkfat on July 18, 2022, 08:03:24 am
Yu vill own notzhing, and yu vill be happy.
 - Uncle Klaus

There is something to it, yes. However, you better fully control the things your livelihood depends on. About luxury, it's better not to cling to it. It weighs you down. If you cling to stuff serving your vanity, you've got problems.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 18, 2022, 08:13:13 am
Yu vill own notzhing, and yu vill be happy.
 - Uncle Klaus
There is something to it, yes. However, you better fully control the things your livelihood depends on. About luxury, it's better not to cling to it. It weighs you down. If you cling to stuff serving your vanity, you've got problems.
Sure, but the reason they (meaning WEF, the lobbying and ideologial training organization for the thousand or so biggest corporations in the world, and the software companies switching to subscription based revenue model) is that they want to keep the ownership, and rent things to you, instead of selling them to you.  That is, you will rent things from us, because we will own everything, and you will own nothing.  And you will be happy, because if you are not, we'll exclude you from the society.

There is no conspiracy whatsoever here, though.  This all only happens because you can easily make several times the profit by renting instead of selling.  There is no human goodwill here, just common rent-seeking behaviour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking).

It has also happened before; just look up history and "company towns".  This is all just taking a long step backwards to the era when humans are cheap, and owners are the controlling class.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on July 18, 2022, 08:35:34 am
Yu vill own notzhing, and yu vill be happy.
 - Uncle Klaus
There is something to it, yes. However, you better fully control the things your livelihood depends on. About luxury, it's better not to cling to it. It weighs you down. If you cling to stuff serving your vanity, you've got problems.
Sure, but the reason they (meaning WEF, the lobbying and ideologial training organization for the thousand or so biggest corporations in the world, and the software companies switching to subscription based revenue model) is that they want to keep the ownership, and rent things to you, instead of selling them to you.  That is, you will rent things from us, because we will own everything, and you will own nothing.  And you will be happy, because if you are not, we'll exclude you from the society.

There is no conspiracy whatsoever here, though.  This all only happens because you can easily make several times the profit by renting instead of selling.  There is no human goodwill here, just common rent-seeking behaviour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking).

It has also happened before; just look up history and "company towns".  This is all just taking a long step backwards to the era when humans are cheap, and owners are the controlling class.

Just one word to summarize your lengthy explanation ... feudalism.  >:D

"YOU" peasants will own nothing, and will be happily work on our land (or assets), and bring the harvest to us, and leave just enough for you to barely survive.  >:D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 18, 2022, 09:56:50 am
Quote
just look up history and "company towns"

Those were/are both good and bad. In the UK I think the tendency was to good (see, for instance, Bournville which improved life immeasurably for employees). Don't know about anywhere else, though.

How would, say, a Google town turn out? On the one hand their employee experience is supposed to be pretty decent, providing one doesn't stand up and wave too much, but they don't really care about people.
 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 18, 2022, 10:27:12 am
Quote
just look up history and "company towns"
Those were/are both good and bad.
I was trying to refer to the ones that paid their workers with slips that were only valid for exchange in the company-owned stores, and the workers had to pay for absolutely everything, including lodging, and couldn't own their own homes for example.  You know, the model WEF is pushing: no cash money either.  And everyone should be aware of how easily Visa and MasterCard are already willing to cut off people just because of wrongthink – see Youtube, Patreon, etc.  Even if you have money in the bank, if the card processors refuse to deal with you and cash money is no longer used, you can't actually buy anything anymore.

It is very straightforward.  If you trust that the 1000 or so biggest companies and the politicians trained in their preferred ideas are the best ones to decide what is good for you, then by all means, do support WEF with all your political power.  I do not, so I have to oppose them and their political lobbyists and stooges, like Finland's current Prime Minister, who truly believe they have people's best interests in mind.

(That said, I have no doubt that Klaus Schwab himself, and the others pushing the Agenda, do actually firmly, honestly believe that their plan is actually good for mankind.  They do really see themselves being good people.  It's just that they are utterly, horribly wrong: all this has been done before, it has never ended up well, and there is no sociological or cultural indicators it could succeed this time either.)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 18, 2022, 12:32:47 pm
Quote
I was trying to refer to the ones that paid their workers with slips that were only valid for exchange in the company

OK :)

The rest I would have to strongly agree with you.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on July 18, 2022, 01:35:44 pm
For all the shit Central Bank Digital Currencies get, the government is actually much more limited in how it can censor and deny service to citizens than private companies. Unless they do it because you are a protected class, private companies can dump you into a no service wasteland for any reason they want.

Looked at honestly, even Diem was infinitely superior freedom wise over paypal/creditcards and the privacy was fine too looking at the actual implementation. But unfortunately Facebook can do no right, between Trump Derangement Syndrome (Cambridge Analytica haunts them, though liberals will try their damnedest to rationalize their new found dislike for them) and kneejerk privacy aficionados it had no chance.

The internet and the move towards online commerce won't go away, even if government doesn't go full China most transactions will become digital. People don't want a completely permissionless and code is law payment system, crypto is for weirdos (only Diem would have been a crypto for normies, because Novi would have offered fraud protection). So pick your poison, government based digital transaction systems or paypal/creditcards.  No nefarious conspiracies brought us to this choice, just organic progress. Given the choices, give me government over private industry. Bring on CBDC or at least a better government based digital payment system (most banks don't even support SEPA QR codes, also SEPA isn't instant).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 18, 2022, 06:16:49 pm
Yu vill own notzhing, and yu vill be happy.
 - Uncle Klaus

There is something to it, yes. However, you better fully control the things your livelihood depends on. About luxury, it's better not to cling to it. It weighs you down. If you cling to stuff serving your vanity, you've got problems.

Although that's somehow philosophical and highly personal rather than an absolute truth, there's something to it, yes. It's a bit like buddhist philosophy.

But if you think the WEF is in any way buddhist, I would beg to differ. :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on July 18, 2022, 07:21:43 pm
Yu vill own notzhing, and yu vill be happy.
 - Uncle Klaus

There is something to it, yes. However, you better fully control the things your livelihood depends on. About luxury, it's better not to cling to it. It weighs you down. If you cling to stuff serving your vanity, you've got problems.

Although that's somehow philosophical and highly personal rather than an absolute truth, there's something to it, yes. It's a bit like buddhist philosophy.

But if you think the WEF is in any way buddhist, I would beg to differ. :-DD

Arguably, religion is subscription based!  :D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Sal Ammoniac on July 18, 2022, 07:57:03 pm
Another reason not to use cloud-based software like word processors:

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/15/1056042/chinese-novel-censored-before-shared/ (https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/15/1056042/chinese-novel-censored-before-shared/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 18, 2022, 08:20:47 pm
Another reason not to use cloud-based software like word processors:

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/15/1056042/chinese-novel-censored-before-shared/ (https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/15/1056042/chinese-novel-censored-before-shared/)

No kidding! :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 18, 2022, 08:25:10 pm
Yu vill own notzhing, and yu vill be happy.
 - Uncle Klaus

There is something to it, yes. However, you better fully control the things your livelihood depends on. About luxury, it's better not to cling to it. It weighs you down. If you cling to stuff serving your vanity, you've got problems.

Although that's somehow philosophical and highly personal rather than an absolute truth, there's something to it, yes. It's a bit like buddhist philosophy.

But if you think the WEF is in any way buddhist, I would beg to differ. :-DD

Arguably, religion is subscription based!  :D

Ahah. That said, I dont think buddhism is a religion. Well, that's probably a question for some debate, but I don't think it is one.

Anyway, while not "clinging" to physical property may be a "good" thing on a *personal* level (read: personal), this should be a complete choice, such as if you embrace buddhism, not something forced upon you allegedly for your own good.

And, I do think that a bunch of billionaires telling modest people that they should own nothing for their own good, is as perverse as it is hilarious.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on July 19, 2022, 10:54:59 am
Another reason not to use cloud-based software like word processors:

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/15/1056042/chinese-novel-censored-before-shared/ (https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/15/1056042/chinese-novel-censored-before-shared/)

It's not a bug, it's a feature! >:D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on July 19, 2022, 07:32:52 pm
Quote
Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Joke: It works for them long term but only short term for the customer.
To which they will assign this same "cloud" setup and equipment to do another short term based service.
I think they mean by their definition of "cloud", you see the "cloud" in the sky and later it's gone.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on July 19, 2022, 08:30:36 pm
In case your cloud service is too hot ... >:D
Google, Oracle cloud servers wilt in UK heatwave, take down websites (https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/19/google_oracle_cloud/ (https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/19/google_oracle_cloud/))
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on July 19, 2022, 10:24:30 pm
Quote
Cloud services and servers hosted by Google and Oracle in the UK have dropped offline due to cooling issues as the nation experiences a record-breaking heatwave.

When the mercury hit 40.3C (104.5F) in eastern England, the highest ever registered by a country not used to these conditions, datacenters couldn't take the heat. Selected machines were powered off to avoid long-term damage, causing some resources, services, and virtual machines to became unavailable, taking down unlucky websites and the like.
...
We're told at least part of Oracle's cooling infrastructure broke down around lunchtime, UK time.

Joke: It could produce a cloud of it's own when the magic smoke escapes from enough of them.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 19, 2022, 11:24:26 pm
In case your cloud service is too hot ... >:D
Google, Oracle cloud servers wilt in UK heatwave, take down websites (https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/19/google_oracle_cloud/ (https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/19/google_oracle_cloud/))

Ahah, and it's "only" 40°C... just imagine if things get slightly worse. Does give confidence right? :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 19, 2022, 11:54:25 pm
Things here just aren't designed for a climate you'd normally find in, say, southern Spain. What would be the point when these temperatures just don't occur here?

Similarly, a few inches of snow can bring the place to a halt because it's not the Arctic Circle so no-one invests in snow chains or owt.

OTOH, we do temperate climate very well :)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 22, 2022, 12:19:18 am
What can I say, I'm not the one defining the current climate in the northern hemisphere. But calling it "temperate" may just be a fuzzy souvenir within a couple decades.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 22, 2022, 12:25:50 am
Once the Gulf Strean goes AWOL, and it is well on the way to that, we are stuffed. Gonna be global freezing so far as we're concerned.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: JPortici on July 22, 2022, 07:17:09 am
What can I say, I'm not the one defining the current climate in the northern hemisphere. But calling it "temperate" may just be a fuzzy souvenir within a couple decades.


I'm pretty sure north italy is already a tropical region :) Hot, 100% humidity all the time and when/if it rains there is always a hail storm in which all the gods fall from the sky doing a body slam
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on July 22, 2022, 07:29:01 am
Once the Gulf Strean goes AWOL, and it is well on the way to that, we are stuffed. Gonna be global freezing so far as we're concerned.

The Gulf Stream will be re-released on a subscription basis!  :D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on July 30, 2022, 03:31:18 pm
Amazon Drive shuts down: https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=23943055011 (https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=23943055011)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: themadhippy on July 30, 2022, 03:48:29 pm
Quote
Amazon Drive shuts down
And just after they announce a price hike for prime,pay more - get less
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on July 30, 2022, 06:17:17 pm
Things here just aren't designed for a climate you'd normally find in, say, southern Spain. What would be the point when these temperatures just don't occur here?

Why not? The days of condenser/evaporator air conditioned server rooms should be behind us, just let water tower cool the server room down as far as it can with water to air heat exchange and leave the rest to CPU throttling.

40 degrees in the server room? Wear shorts. The electronics shouldn't care. It doesn't make sense to try to keep server room temperatures to some arbitrary environmental temperature 60 degrees removed from what the silicon can actually operate at. It will work fine with a 50 degree difference too, 10 degree increase in environmental temperature only makes a small difference to the power the CPU cooler can dissipate.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 30, 2022, 07:04:10 pm
Amazon Drive shuts down: https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=23943055011 (https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=23943055011)

Who would have thought! :-DD

Those shutdowns may push people to get back to at least keeping a local backup of their data.
Then they buy external drives/NAS/... and back up their data in there.

Then they wake up in 5 years and realize that their local storage devices are actually subscription-based too, and that they won't be able to retrieve their local data unless they hold a valid subscription.
 :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Bobson on July 30, 2022, 09:33:39 pm
The electronics shouldn't care. It doesn't make sense to try to keep server room temperatures to some arbitrary environmental temperature 60 degrees removed from what the silicon can actually operate at.

Not all electronics, PSUs and SSDs are very prone to overheat, so do mechanical hard drives.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 01, 2022, 02:07:20 pm
Sage is the latest one to jump on the subscribe-or-bust bandwagon. Their excuse: TLS can't be upgraded to 1.2 on the perpetual license (which may have been sold only a year or so ago but, hey, shit happens and it's a short lifetime).

https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2022/08/01/sage_perpetual_licensing_dispute/

Quote
Earlier this month, The Register revealed Sage was advising customers with small business software Sage 50 Accounts and Sage 50cloud Accounts v26.2 (published 2020) or below to move to subscription software because these packages use Transport Layer Security 1.0 and 1.1 – dated versions of the security protocol.

Sage is not offering customers the ability to patch or upgrade their software on a perpetual license. Those who have not moved to a subscription license by 30 September will lose access to their software and their data, according to a statement.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on August 01, 2022, 02:21:59 pm
Not all electronics, PSUs and SSDs are very prone to overheat, so do mechanical hard drives.

Electrolytics and hard drives will fail a little faster at 40C ambient, but it's just going to take the MTBF from more years to less years. Not instant failure. SSDs run hot, just like CPUs. A 10 degree increase in ambient is only a fractional decrease in cooling capacity.

Take the cooler of outside/inside ambient air, cool it with cooling towers, pump it in, pump out inside air if it's warmer than ambient. That's all what's needed for a modern datacenter. If you need compressor/evaporator cooling you're doing it wrong. Hardware is too cheap and electricity too expensive. As usual most of IT keeps doing it wrong, only the hyperscalers do it right.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on August 01, 2022, 02:22:27 pm
Quote
Earlier this month, The Register revealed Sage was advising customers with small business software Sage 50 Accounts and Sage 50cloud Accounts v26.2 (published 2020) or below to move to subscription software because these packages use Transport Layer Security 1.0 and 1.1  :bullshit: – dated versions of the security protocol.
Sounds like a very LAME excuse to me.

Quote
However, developers on a separate Sage platform, the cloud-based Intacct, were told in March 2018 to "Ensure your application is configured to negotiate connections using TLS 1.2 or higher.
So they let it happen and bring up that excuse.

It doesn't support this and that so you will pay monthly for it to have the "transport layer".
Bullsh*t:

Quote
Users of the affected version of Sage 50 Accounts get a pop-up dialog box telling them to upgrade to 26.3 or 27, but when they try to download the software, only subscription options are available.
I heard that is what they call "pulling a fast one".
Sounds to me like an insult.

I remembered about 5 years ago working somewhere that used Sage accounts where Sage use to email us the program updates.

Quote
Meanwhile, The Register understands that customers have been offered refunds on recently purchased upgrade packages :-+, a refund of time remaining on the 15-year perpetual license when they move to the subscription model, and a 12 months free subscription. :bullshit:
Maybe it is time they find an alternative perpetual platform.

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/sage.com?page=3&stars=1 (https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/sage.com?page=3&stars=1)
Page 3
Quote
Is this the way a Compnay should behave?
I bouth a copy of Stand-alone Sage50 a few years ago, but have received an email today letting me know that later this year I will be unable to log in to my Software unless I upgrade to a newer Cloud based version and start paying a monthly fee. I certainly feel abused by this attitude, and if Sage continue down this route to exploit at least me, if not many other customer's, which I consider to be very shapr practice, I will be using an alternative supplier. I would recommned considerbale caution before buying this package.

So they are not even letting them use the perpetual standalone version past that point for archival purposes?

I thought you could when I last used it to setup and test some printers and I think I was trying to change the path where I saw the data files from it  being saved in the wrong place which was the main c:\. I didn't see any login, it just loaded up and that was it. Maybe things have changed since them.

Just found this:
https://www.sagecity.com/ca/sage_50_accounting_ca/b/sage_50_ca_supporthub_blog/posts/a-sage-50cloud-subscription-vs-perpetual-license-what-s-the-difference (https://www.sagecity.com/ca/sage_50_accounting_ca/b/sage_50_ca_supporthub_blog/posts/a-sage-50cloud-subscription-vs-perpetual-license-what-s-the-difference)
Quote
With/Without Service Plan
When you buy a Sage 50 box from retail and install it on a machine, it is a perpetual license, which means you can always use basic accounting functionalities, like posting a general journal entry.

Sage 50 licenses can either be subscription or perpetual. With a non-subscription service plan (like a payroll-only plan, where you get access to the module), you normally pay one time to get entitled for a period of time. After the service plan expires, if you don't renew it, the perpetual user license will continue to allow you access to basic accounting functionalities in the software which do not require an active service plan.

However, if eventually you want to use features that can be accessed only if entitled, such as Remote Data Access, then you'll need to acquire a service plan which entitles access to this feature.

So they still have the basic functionalities and the above was not correct or more like a threat to "upgrade" to their "cloud".




https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/sage-50-cloud-wont-work-unless-you-update?page=1 (https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/sage-50-cloud-wont-work-unless-you-update?page=1)
Quote
28th Jan 2022
Sage 50 Cloud - won't work unless you update??

Hi

My Sage 50 (* now called Sage 50 Cloud) is running a warning banner that I won't be able to access my software unless I update to the latest version.

I purchased 5 company sage licences in 2015 - at a time when they were outright purchases, no support needed, no monthly fee.  When I purchased the licenses I was led to believe they were perpetual licences, but the small print says they are for 15 years - but I accepted that, fine.  The software works fine, it hasn't been updated, but I've used Sage long enough to know how to configure the VAT rates etc.

Now Sage are saying if I don't update, I will loose the software. That's like buying a car, and 5 years later, the dealer says, no we've reverted you to lease hire or you can't keep the car.

I can't be the only one with this problem,

* I am not sure whether an update was slipped over at some point to migrate to their "cloud" version.

If not it sounds to me like a threat or if they can do it I believe it could be through the license/activation which would defeat the purpose of what that was brought on.

Not looking good for Sage and its perpetual customers.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on August 01, 2022, 07:26:17 pm
When you manage 140k payment terminals via a cloud service: Hackers stole passwords for accessing 140,000 payment terminals (https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/01/wiseasy-android-payment-passwords/).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Miyuki on August 01, 2022, 08:40:05 pm
Not all electronics, PSUs and SSDs are very prone to overheat, so do mechanical hard drives.

Electrolytics and hard drives will fail a little faster at 40C ambient, but it's just going to take the MTBF from more years to less years. Not instant failure. SSDs run hot, just like CPUs. A 10 degree increase in ambient is only a fractional decrease in cooling capacity.

Take the cooler of outside/inside ambient air, cool it with cooling towers, pump it in, pump out inside air if it's warmer than ambient. That's all what's needed for a modern datacenter. If you need compressor/evaporator cooling you're doing it wrong. Hardware is too cheap and electricity too expensive. As usual most of IT keeps doing it wrong, only the hyperscalers do it right.
Most servers have 10°C - 35°C range
And you will experience a significantly shortened lifespan when reaching that 35°C
Fans will ramp to the max, so also significant reliability issues and increased power consumption (fans at full power can take up to 25% of power in 1U system)
The cooling budget is low in most servers as you need them to be dense.
Look for example at the capacitors: "lifetime doubles for each 10°C"
Hard drives have also a relatively narrow window of 25°C to 40°C (actual HDD temperature, so ambient has to be colder) maximal reliability
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on August 02, 2022, 08:54:49 am
Sage is the latest one to jump on the subscribe-or-bust bandwagon. Their excuse: TLS can't be upgraded to 1.2 on the perpetual license (which may have been sold only a year or so ago but, hey, shit happens and it's a short lifetime).

https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2022/08/01/sage_perpetual_licensing_dispute/

Quote
Earlier this month, The Register revealed Sage was advising customers with small business software Sage 50 Accounts and Sage 50cloud Accounts v26.2 (published 2020) or below to move to subscription software because these packages use Transport Layer Security 1.0 and 1.1 – dated versions of the security protocol.

Sage is not offering customers the ability to patch or upgrade their software on a perpetual license. Those who have not moved to a subscription license by 30 September will lose access to their software and their data, according to a statement.


For basic accounting, what more do you need than MS Access + Excel anyway...  (perpetual versions, of course)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on August 02, 2022, 09:15:41 am
Not to mention, if you have an SLA of 99.99...% uptime, you really can't afford more server failures than single digits per month, or you start needing more redundancy and failover capacity which adds cost ... and heat ... to the building.

Air conditioning for datacenters makes sense.  But instead of cooling the air directly, I wonder if there is anyone cooling the servers directly, with liquid cooling to each unit.  I suspect the cost of doing so is excessive compared to the benefits.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 02, 2022, 09:37:18 am
Quote
For basic accounting, what more do you need than MS Access + Excel anyway...  (perpetual versions, of course)

Depends what you mean by 'basic'. I imagine basic company accounts are rather more onerous than basic personal accounts. Plus you don't need to understand accountancy so deeply in order to program/create appropriate tools before even thinking of entering transactions.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on August 02, 2022, 09:49:20 am
In climates where the ambient temperature is below 10°C for significant periods, and office buildings need central heating, it would make a lot of sense to integrate the server hall into the central heating system, so that waste heat from the servers is used to heat the rest of the building.

This requires both local servers, and architects and engineers that understand and care, though.  So it is a no go, usually.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: themadhippy on August 02, 2022, 11:19:53 am
Quote
For basic accounting, what more do you need than MS Access + Excel anyway
Nothing,and is how i run my business accounts, but in the  uk  that aint good enough if you want to be vat registered.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Miyuki on August 02, 2022, 12:25:21 pm
Not to mention, if you have an SLA of 99.99...% uptime, you really can't afford more server failures than single digits per month, or you start needing more redundancy and failover capacity which adds cost ... and heat ... to the building.

Air conditioning for datacenters makes sense.  But instead of cooling the air directly, I wonder if there is anyone cooling the servers directly, with liquid cooling to each unit.  I suspect the cost of doing so is excessive compared to the benefits.
There are some attempts to liquid-cooled servers or liquid-air heat exchangers in a closed rack, to not cool the whole room, but just servers directly.
Also some oil immersed cooling

Everything have drawbacks in real applications
Liquid cooling need huge amount of quick connect hoses, so plenty of points of failure and no standardization, so you will be vendor lock, plus how to cool passive components like those capacitors and inductors on boards
Per rack heat exchanger looks doable, but still involves complicated plumbing and issues with like the hydraulic balance of that
Immersion in oil brings complicated maintenance and in case of conductive contamination, you will kill all the servers

When you are in an industry where reliability is a concern you do not want to implement untested technologies
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on August 02, 2022, 02:29:25 pm
In climates where the ambient temperature is below 10°C for significant periods, and office buildings need central heating, it would make a lot of sense to integrate the server hall into the central heating system, so that waste heat from the servers is used to heat the rest of the building.

Some data centers/carrier hotels do that already for 20+ years, and not just in cold regions. There are also a few supporting district heating systems.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 02, 2022, 06:49:05 pm
Ha! Being able to "capture" heat when the weather is hot, "store" it in some way, and release it when it's cold would be a major achievement.

In many countries these days (even in temperate climates now), summers can be extremely hot and winters still pretty cold.
Having to spend huge amounts of energy to cool down, then huge amounts to heat up, is a real waste.

I don't have any miracle technology in store to do that efficiently, though.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on August 03, 2022, 09:41:07 am
Ha! Being able to "capture" heat when the weather is hot, "store" it in some way, and release it when it's cold would be a major achievement.

In many countries these days (even in temperate climates now), summers can be extremely hot and winters still pretty cold.
Having to spend huge amounts of energy to cool down, then huge amounts to heat up, is a real waste.

I don't have any miracle technology in store to do that efficiently, though.

Large bodies of water do this very well.  Too bad the Gulf Stream has already been invented!  :D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on August 03, 2022, 09:47:58 am
The ground does it pretty well.  It's more or less around 12 - 20C all year round, once you go a meter or so below the surface.  That's why ground source heat pumps are such a good idea.

I did read something that suggested if every house had a GSHP, they'd freeze the ground during the winter and then defrost it during the summer (if they used the GSHP for air conditioning too).  That could cause some disruption to structures and tree roots etc.  This is mitigated by using boreholes instead of loops under gardens (also required for anywhere without substantial land) but the cost of installing a borehole heat exchanger is considerable compared to "just" digging up the garden.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 03, 2022, 12:41:18 pm
Problem heat pumps is you've stil got to pump it - while that's more efficient than direct heating/cooling it's not free and that energy has to come from somewhere. Pumped storage is free in that respect - you could use solar electricity to pump water uphill and then it costs nothing to both store and use the stored energy. If you could use stored heat in the same way that would be pretty cool, and the output could even drive a heat pump...

Just in case, by 'free' and 'nothing' I refer to ongoing costs. Clearly, there will be infrastructure costs and maintenance costs whatever you do.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Zero999 on August 03, 2022, 12:50:16 pm
Ha! Being able to "capture" heat when the weather is hot, "store" it in some way, and release it when it's cold would be a major achievement.

In many countries these days (even in temperate climates now), summers can be extremely hot and winters still pretty cold.
Having to spend huge amounts of energy to cool down, then huge amounts to heat up, is a real waste.

I don't have any miracle technology in store to do that efficiently, though.

Large bodies of water do this very well.  Too bad the Gulf Stream has already been invented!  :D
Once the Gulf Strean goes AWOL, and it is well on the way to that, we are stuffed. Gonna be global freezing so far as we're concerned.


Except the Gulf Stream makes little difference to the climate of most of the UK. Whatever happens to the ocean currents, this country will always be to the east of a large ocean, with the prevailing wind blowing from the west, keeping it milder in winter then countries more inland.

I wonder if it makes sense to use a sea source heat pump for coastal locations?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 03, 2022, 01:24:37 pm
I thought it was the Gulf Stream that keeps us temperate. We're on the same latitude as a lot of very much colder places, because they don't have a similar stream taking the edge off. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream):

Quote
The North Atlantic Current of the Gulf Stream, along with similar warm air currents, helps keep Ireland and the western coast of Great Britain a couple of degrees warmer than the east.[34] However, the difference is most dramatic in the western coastal islands of Scotland.[35] A noticeable effect of the Gulf Stream and the strong westerly winds on Europe occurs along the Norwegian coast.[12] Northern parts of Norway lie close to the Arctic zone, most of which is covered with ice and snow in winter. However, almost all of Norway's coast remains free of ice and snow throughout the year.[36] The warming effect provided by the Gulf Stream has allowed fairly large settlements to be developed and maintained on the coast of Northern Norway, including Tromsø, the third largest city north of the Arctic Circle. Weather systems warmed by the Gulf Stream drift into Northern Europe, also warming the climate behind the Scandinavian mountains.

Maybe Scotland doesn't count, being a bit uppity, but I reckon Cornwall does :)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 03, 2022, 01:54:18 pm
https://hackaday.com/2022/08/03/restore-your-formerly-useless-ouya-console/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on August 03, 2022, 02:05:20 pm
I wonder if it makes sense to use a sea source heat pump for coastal locations?

Water source heat pumps are an uncommon technology but in properties located near a substantial body of water, or for commercial facilities, they have been used.  You are dealing with a wider range of water temperature compared to the ground so there are greater seasonal variations, but provided it's flowing it won't go below freezing (and it's -5C and below where heat pumps start to roll off considerably.)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Zero999 on August 03, 2022, 02:15:25 pm
I thought it was the Gulf Stream that keeps us temperate. We're on the same latitude as a lot of very much colder places, because they don't have a similar stream taking the edge off. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream):

Quote
The North Atlantic Current of the Gulf Stream, along with similar warm air currents, helps keep Ireland and the western coast of Great Britain a couple of degrees warmer than the east.[34] However, the difference is most dramatic in the western coastal islands of Scotland.[35] A noticeable effect of the Gulf Stream and the strong westerly winds on Europe occurs along the Norwegian coast.[12] Northern parts of Norway lie close to the Arctic zone, most of which is covered with ice and snow in winter. However, almost all of Norway's coast remains free of ice and snow throughout the year.[36] The warming effect provided by the Gulf Stream has allowed fairly large settlements to be developed and maintained on the coast of Northern Norway, including Tromsø, the third largest city north of the Arctic Circle. Weather systems warmed by the Gulf Stream drift into Northern Europe, also warming the climate behind the Scandinavian mountains.

Maybe Scotland doesn't count, being a bit uppity, but I reckon Cornwall does :)
Most of the heat goes past the bulk of the British Isles, towards Iceland. Here are a couple of interesting articles.
https://all-geo.org/highlyallochthonous/2012/06/what-do-you-mean-the-gulf-stream-doesnt-keep-europe-warm-how-even-scientists-are-afflicted-by-urban-myths/ (https://all-geo.org/highlyallochthonous/2012/06/what-do-you-mean-the-gulf-stream-doesnt-keep-europe-warm-how-even-scientists-are-afflicted-by-urban-myths/)
http://ocp.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/gs/ (http://ocp.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/gs/)

Western Europe is mild because because it's downwind of a large ocean. We're on the same latitude as Western Canada, which has similar temperatures.

The position of land masses and ocean encourages areas of high and low pressure to set up in the North Pacific and Atlantic basins, which divert warm air over the west coasts. I made a post about this last year.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/the-8-bit-guys-house-in-texas/msg3487896/#msg3487896 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/the-8-bit-guys-house-in-texas/msg3487896/#msg3487896)

Our climate will be affected if the ocean currents change, but it simply isn't true we'll be plunged into the freezer. The Gulf Stream myth will never die. Remember back in February-March 2018, we had the Beast from the East which followed a mild January? What happened to the gulf stream? Nothing. It didn't change path, the atmospheric circulation did. During January there were positive heights to our south and negative to our north (https://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/ds:/SOURCES/.NOAA/.NCEP-NCAR/.CDAS-1/.MONTHLY/.Intrinsic/.PressureLevel/.phi/P/%28500%29VALUE/dup/T/%28Jan%201991%29%28Dec%202020%29RANGE/yearly-climatology/sub/std_anomaly_colors2//long_name/%28Geopotential%20Height%20Anomaly%29def//name/%28phi1%29def/SOURCES/.NOAA/.NCEP-NCAR/.CDAS-1/.MONTHLY/.Intrinsic/.PressureLevel/.phi/P/%28500%29VALUE/T/%28Jan%201991%29%28Dec%202020%29RANGE/yearly-climatology/DATA/60/STEP//name/%28phiclim%29def/:ds/a-/.phi1/-a-/.phiclim/-a/X/Y/fig:/colors/grey/unlabelledcontours/black/thin/solid/coasts/countries/:fig/%28phi1%29-120/120/plotrange//T/last/plotvalue/X/-20/340/plotrange/Y/-65/75/plotrange//plotaxislength+650+psdef//plotborder+72+psdef//XOVY+null+psdef//color_smoothing+null+psdef//antialias+true+psdef+.gif?T=Jan%202018&plotaxislength=960), drawing in the wind from the Atlantic, then in February, heights rose to the north-east and fell to our south (https://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/ds:/SOURCES/.NOAA/.NCEP-NCAR/.CDAS-1/.MONTHLY/.Intrinsic/.PressureLevel/.phi/P/%28500%29VALUE/dup/T/%28Jan%201991%29%28Dec%202020%29RANGE/yearly-climatology/sub/std_anomaly_colors2//long_name/%28Geopotential%20Height%20Anomaly%29def//name/%28phi1%29def/SOURCES/.NOAA/.NCEP-NCAR/.CDAS-1/.MONTHLY/.Intrinsic/.PressureLevel/.phi/P/%28500%29VALUE/T/%28Jan%201991%29%28Dec%202020%29RANGE/yearly-climatology/DATA/60/STEP//name/%28phiclim%29def/:ds/a-/.phi1/-a-/.phiclim/-a/X/Y/fig:/colors/grey/unlabelledcontours/black/thin/solid/coasts/countries/:fig/%28phi1%29-120/120/plotrange//T/last/plotvalue/X/-20/340/plotrange/Y/-65/75/plotrange//plotaxislength+650+psdef//plotborder+72+psdef//XOVY+null+psdef//color_smoothing+null+psdef//antialias+true+psdef+.gif?T=Feb%202018&plotaxislength=940), drawing in an north-easterly flow off the freezing continent. By April heights rose to the south-east and fell to the west (https://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/ds:/SOURCES/.NOAA/.NCEP-NCAR/.CDAS-1/.MONTHLY/.Intrinsic/.PressureLevel/.phi/P/%28500%29VALUE/dup/T/%28Jan%201991%29%28Dec%202020%29RANGE/yearly-climatology/sub/std_anomaly_colors2//long_name/%28Geopotential%20Height%20Anomaly%29def//name/%28phi1%29def/SOURCES/.NOAA/.NCEP-NCAR/.CDAS-1/.MONTHLY/.Intrinsic/.PressureLevel/.phi/P/%28500%29VALUE/T/%28Jan%201991%29%28Dec%202020%29RANGE/yearly-climatology/DATA/60/STEP//name/%28phiclim%29def/:ds/a-/.phi1/-a-/.phiclim/-a/X/Y/fig:/colors/grey/unlabelledcontours/black/thin/solid/coasts/countries/:fig/%28phi1%29-120/120/plotrange//T/last/plotvalue/X/-20/340/plotrange/Y/-65/75/plotrange//plotaxislength+650+psdef//plotborder+72+psdef//XOVY+null+psdef//color_smoothing+null+psdef//antialias+true+psdef+.gif?T=Apr%202018&plotaxislength=940), turning the wind into the south, giving a warm month and setting the scene for a hot summer.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 03, 2022, 02:43:53 pm
Quote
Here are a couple of interesting articles.

Well, that first article basically says "You're wrong, so there", which isn't awfully convincing. But it did give a link to https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-source-of-europes-mild-climate (https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-source-of-europes-mild-climate) which was interesting. However, the chap shows a model with enabled/disabled ocean currents (for heat transfer) and says there is little difference, but the charts shows that there is a difference over the UK. OK, so perhaps a matter of 5-8 degrees (hard to tell) and he says that's nothing compared to 15-20. Yes, kind of, but a couple of degrees does make a lot of difference just above freezing. At least, I notice!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TimFox on August 03, 2022, 02:45:12 pm
I wonder if it makes sense to use a sea source heat pump for coastal locations?

Water source heat pumps are an uncommon technology but in properties located near a substantial body of water, or for commercial facilities, they have been used.  You are dealing with a wider range of water temperature compared to the ground so there are greater seasonal variations, but provided it's flowing it won't go below freezing (and it's -5C and below where heat pumps start to roll off considerably.)

My college recently announced that they have replaced the ancient steam plant with a large heat pump that couples to a deep underground water source, which I believe they said remained constant at about +50o F = +10o C.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on August 03, 2022, 03:04:28 pm
the cost of installing a borehole heat exchanger is considerable compared to "just" digging up the garden.
Most of the cost estimates are for retrofit, but that's a fundamentally different business from large scale installs. If all new housing developments go ground source heatpumps and companies cost optimize specifically for such projects, costs can probably drop to less than a third than for retrofit. Same if it's done with semi-district heating using deeper boreholes. Transport cost amortized over far more work, can potentially run it in two shifts, no need to setup in a build up environment, no yard to dig up.

For a retrofit the drill rig is likely tied up for 3 days, for 10 hours of drilling. Not very efficient.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Zero999 on August 03, 2022, 03:19:13 pm
Quote
Here are a couple of interesting articles.

Well, that first article basically says "You're wrong, so there", which isn't awfully convincing. But it did give a link to https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-source-of-europes-mild-climate (https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-source-of-europes-mild-climate) which was interesting. However, the chap shows a model with enabled/disabled ocean currents (for heat transfer) and says there is little difference, but the charts shows that there is a difference over the UK. OK, so perhaps a matter of 5-8 degrees (hard to tell) and he says that's nothing compared to 15-20. Yes, kind of, but a couple of degrees does make a lot of difference just above freezing. At least, I notice!
The wind influences the ocean currents to some degree.

Note how the temperature gradients in the Pacific and Atlantic are similar, how they go diagonally from the south to north, east to west?  Note the annual temperatures of Vancouver and Southampton, both around 50 parallel are within 1 °C of each other. The fact Southampton is a 1 °C warmer could easily be explained by other factors. For example, it's on an island, so when the wind turns into the east during winter it's moderated by the North Sea, whist Vancouver doesn't have the same degree of protection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver#Climate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver#Climate)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southampton#Climate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southampton#Climate)

We don't know what would happen if the Gulf Stream were to stop or weaken. Some parts of the world will get warmer. It's possible parts of the UK could warm. The jet stream is driven by the temperature difference between the pole an equator. The Gulf stream makes parts of the arctic region near the UK warmer. If they cool down, it might make the jet stream stronger, bringing more mild air to the UK and make high pressure blocking around the Norwegian sea less likely, which would reduce the possibility of cold weather over here.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 03, 2022, 07:38:25 pm
Ha! Being able to "capture" heat when the weather is hot, "store" it in some way, and release it when it's cold would be a major achievement.

In many countries these days (even in temperate climates now), summers can be extremely hot and winters still pretty cold.
Having to spend huge amounts of energy to cool down, then huge amounts to heat up, is a real waste.

I don't have any miracle technology in store to do that efficiently, though.

Large bodies of water do this very well.  Too bad the Gulf Stream has already been invented!  :D

It's quite obvious we could benefit from way better than this. It's clearly not enough. That was the point of my post.

Things would just be much worse without the oceans. But without the oceans, we would have many other problems as well anyway.

Point is, we DO spend a lot of energy heating up in winters and cooling down in summers. Even in temperate climates these days. So any technology that could help significantly with that would definitely be a MAJOR achievement.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TimFox on August 03, 2022, 08:16:49 pm
Following up to my post about my undergraduate college:
Here is a news release about their change to "geothermal" energy  https://apps.carleton.edu/voice/?story_id=1000156466&issue_id=1000156446
In the late '60s, when I was a student there, "geothermal" meant mining underground deposits of hot water, but this system is a huge heat pump with an unchanging reservoir of underground water.
At that location, winter temperatures go down to -20o F = -29o C  and summer temperatures up to +100o F = +38o C, the joys of a mid-continental climate.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Zero999 on August 03, 2022, 09:18:14 pm
Following up to my post about my undergraduate college:
Here is a news release about their change to "geothermal" energy  https://apps.carleton.edu/voice/?story_id=1000156466&issue_id=1000156446
In the late '60s, when I was a student there, "geothermal" meant mining underground deposits of hot water, but this system is a huge heat pump with an unchanging reservoir of underground water.
At that location, winter temperatures go down to -20o F = -29o C  and summer temperatures up to +100o F = +38o C, the joys of a mid-continental climate.
I always thought geothermal was hot water underground. I suppose geology limits the potential for ground source heat pumps, which are also no good in polar climates where the ground is permanently frozen.

I wonder how much of an effect it would have on the urban heat island if everyone switched to heat pumps and electric cars? It's bound to locally cool the climate, which would mean people would need to heat there homes a bit more.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 03, 2022, 09:40:54 pm
I guess when the air is hot, we could work out the opposite, geothermal energy using the temperature difference between outside air (relatively hot) and temperature deep down underground, which can be pretty cold. Not sure if the temp difference would be enough to get something useful.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Miyuki on August 04, 2022, 05:39:57 am
The ground does it pretty well.  It's more or less around 12 - 20C all year round, once you go a meter or so below the surface.  That's why ground source heat pumps are such a good idea.

I did read something that suggested if every house had a GSHP, they'd freeze the ground during the winter and then defrost it during the summer (if they used the GSHP for air conditioning too).  That could cause some disruption to structures and tree roots etc.  This is mitigated by using boreholes instead of loops under gardens (also required for anywhere without substantial land) but the cost of installing a borehole heat exchanger is considerable compared to "just" digging up the garden.
Ground heat pumps can be tricky
It works as a huge storage tank, not an infinite source/sink as it is sometimes presented
So if your overall energy is not close to zero you will cause the temperature to rise or drop significantly over years.
Plus the deep well system in many cases causes significant disruption to groundwater.
Look for example at London Underground and their issues with heat
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Bassman59 on August 04, 2022, 05:41:53 am
Amazon Drive shuts down: https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=23943055011 (https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=23943055011)

How many competing cloud storage services are really necessary?

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Zero999 on August 04, 2022, 08:22:57 pm
I guess when the air is hot, we could work out the opposite, geothermal energy using the temperature difference between outside air (relatively hot) and temperature deep down underground, which can be pretty cold. Not sure if the temp difference would be enough to get something useful.
If it's very hot, it's possible to power a heat pump from the temperature difference. Look up absorption refrigeration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: AnalogueLove1867 on August 06, 2022, 09:55:32 am
Amazon Drive shuts down: https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=23943055011 (https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=23943055011)

How many competing cloud storage services are really necessary?

Funny how all the technologically "progressive" people jumped in at cloud this and cloud that as if it was somehow mandatory lol.
I already pay for unlimited internet. Working out the costs for Storage 40+ terabytes of data. Ended up just purchasing hard-drives.
For data error checking and other reasons. Cloud storage just doesn't cut it.
You don't truly "own" your data when it is on someone else's hardware anyway.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on August 08, 2022, 10:52:58 am
On October 13, 2022 we're removing the option to transfer playlists to your Fitbit watch through your computer. ...

https://help.fitbit.com/articles/en_US/Help_article/2251.htm (https://help.fitbit.com/articles/en_US/Help_article/2251.htm)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on August 08, 2022, 10:44:24 pm
On October 13, 2022 we're removing the option to transfer playlists to your Fitbit watch through your computer. ...

https://help.fitbit.com/articles/en_US/Help_article/2251.htm (https://help.fitbit.com/articles/en_US/Help_article/2251.htm)

Garmin's fitness offerings are relatively free of BS, if anyone is interested in that kind of thing.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 08, 2022, 11:29:52 pm
Looks like you can still transfer playlists but only via an app that will cost you £12/mnth.

Can't imagine why the free computer means is being stopped.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 09, 2022, 01:28:49 am
Because it's free?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 09, 2022, 10:03:50 am
Uh-huh (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on August 09, 2022, 10:23:02 am
I got a Fitbit as a gift, it lasted 18 months,  Fitbit replaced it under warranty, that lasted 18 months.

Before the first one died I bought one for my girlfriend and that lasted 12 months.  A friend of mine had their slightly more advanced watch with the colour LCD and the battery lasted just over 2 years, now it will run the watch for about 10 minutes before dying.

Will never touch the things.  Utter crap build quality, and the software is rubbish. 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on August 09, 2022, 03:50:57 pm
I hate how everything is moving to requiring apps now, that's basically just as bad as software as a service, even if the app is free, because you're basically relying on a "black box" that could stop working at any time. If they pull the app off the store, or stop updating it for newer phones etc you're basically out of luck.   But charging for it too?  That's even worse.

Our local taxi company decided to get rid of their landline and now you need an app to get a cab.  |O  I rarely use cabs but when I do it's because I had something to drink.  I use a custom rom so it won't work with any of these apps as there is no play store.  Looks like next party I'm going to, I'm walking home.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TimFox on August 09, 2022, 03:54:06 pm
How do visitors from out-of-town or out-of-country get a cab?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on August 09, 2022, 04:42:41 pm
They probably don't, but in my experience of the various local firms using taxi-cab apps, they're abysmally useless.

They don't work like Uber or other services where there's a live connection between the cab and the server, so the planning logic can find a taxi that's plying for hire and is a reasonable distance away.  Instead, they almost universally just send an email or text to the booking line of the cab company, who then hopefully schedule you a taxi.  There's no synchronisation of the booking system with the taxi and in many cases, you can book a taxi that will never show up (busy times, for instance.) 

I have given up with them.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 09, 2022, 06:07:19 pm
Similar issue with parking around here: there are metered bays which you either phone in and give them your credit card number, or use an app to do the same. I don't often park in those kinds of bays, but one hospital is totally dependent on them so needs must. Second time I chose to use the app and it was much less painful that phoning in, of course.

However, not I have the app and I notice these bays elsewhere. I took a trip into London and the place I was visiting had a car park round the back, so I figured I should take a fistful of coins. But it turned out to use the very same app and since I was that was already set with my card a registration number I just had to run it, agree I was where the GPS said I was, and it was done.

Now, I actively look for parking places covered by that app no matter which part of the country I am visiting. Sometimes this stuff works very well, although I'd be the first to be suspicious of some random app for a local business.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: sokoloff on August 09, 2022, 07:50:17 pm
I found this exploit of smart parking lots to be interesting: scammers posted fake QR codes to take payments that parkers thought we’re paying for parking: https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/transportation/2022/01/31/418095/houston-drivers-are-asked-to-be-alert-to-a-parking-meter-scam/amp/ (https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/transportation/2022/01/31/418095/houston-drivers-are-asked-to-be-alert-to-a-parking-meter-scam/amp/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 09, 2022, 09:33:08 pm
Clever!

All the more reason to use an app, I think. But only a decent one :)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on August 10, 2022, 12:25:03 am
How do visitors from out-of-town or out-of-country get a cab?

Guessing at some point the app will be more advertised and they'll have to go find it in play store and download it.  Quite annoying actually since if every town does this it means you're going to have to go through that process each time.  I presume you need to make an account and all that jazz too.  If you're traveling you may also not have access to your computer to check your email so you'll have to set that up on your phone too.  Sounds like a royal pain honestly, vs just making a phone call. Maybe I'm just getting old.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Echo88 on August 13, 2022, 12:12:50 am
https://hackaday.com/2022/08/12/local-simulation-feature-to-be-removed-from-all-autodesk-fusion-360-versions/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on August 13, 2022, 12:24:19 am
I hate how everything is moving to requiring apps now, that's basically just as bad as software as a service, even if the app is free, because you're basically relying on a "black box" that could stop working at any time. If they pull the app off the store, or stop updating it for newer phones etc you're basically out of luck.   But charging for it too?  That's even worse.

Our local taxi company decided to get rid of their landline and now you need an app to get a cab.  |O  I rarely use cabs but when I do it's because I had something to drink.  I use a custom rom so it won't work with any of these apps as there is no play store.  Looks like next party I'm going to, I'm walking home.

Are there no alternative cab companies? - not all of them are "numberless"
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on August 14, 2022, 12:13:33 am
I hate how everything is moving to requiring apps now, that's basically just as bad as software as a service, even if the app is free, because you're basically relying on a "black box" that could stop working at any time. If they pull the app off the store, or stop updating it for newer phones etc you're basically out of luck.   But charging for it too?  That's even worse.

Our local taxi company decided to get rid of their landline and now you need an app to get a cab.  |O  I rarely use cabs but when I do it's because I had something to drink.  I use a custom rom so it won't work with any of these apps as there is no play store.  Looks like next party I'm going to, I'm walking home.

Are there no alternative cab companies? - not all of them are "numberless"

We basically have 2 here, but I think one bought the other, so we're down to one now.  I don't use cabs very often but I'll definitely want to inform myself next time I do.

I have a feeling this setup is not going to work long term and they'll go back to having a phone number and dispatcher though.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on August 14, 2022, 12:16:33 am
https://hackaday.com/2022/08/12/local-simulation-feature-to-be-removed-from-all-autodesk-fusion-360-versions/

I really wish there was some fully freeware CAD programs that were viable.  I find the ecosystem for CAD now days sucks because of this cloud based/subscription stuff.

The closest thing is FreeCAD, but it's not exactly intuitive to use at all. 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 14, 2022, 10:46:30 am
https://hackaday.com/2022/08/12/local-simulation-feature-to-be-removed-from-all-autodesk-fusion-360-versions/

I really wish there was some fully freeware CAD programs that were viable.

I wish there was some affordable alternative to Autodesk. Asking for freeware just says no-one is interested in acknowledging others hard work, they just want free stuff, and the issue of cloud and subscriptions is overlooked. Please please please please please don't let's get an aversion to subscriptions be conflated with freetards.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on August 14, 2022, 01:38:58 pm
I hate how everything is moving to requiring apps now, that's basically just as bad as software as a service, even if the app is free, because you're basically relying on a "black box" that could stop working at any time. If they pull the app off the store, or stop updating it for newer phones etc you're basically out of luck.   But charging for it too?  That's even worse.

Our local taxi company decided to get rid of their landline and now you need an app to get a cab.  |O  I rarely use cabs but when I do it's because I had something to drink.  I use a custom rom so it won't work with any of these apps as there is no play store.  Looks like next party I'm going to, I'm walking home.

Are there no alternative cab companies? - not all of them are "numberless"

We basically have 2 here, but I think one bought the other, so we're down to one now.  I don't use cabs very often but I'll definitely want to inform myself next time I do.

I have a feeling this setup is not going to work long term and they'll go back to having a phone number and dispatcher though.

Recently I was at an airport and tried to hail an Uber on my phone.  The app was so slow and unresponsive that I gave up, and walked over to the taxi rank instead....   Not only was this a lot easier and faster, but to my surprise, the cost was not higher than Uber!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on August 14, 2022, 02:26:43 pm
With PWAs it seems ridiculous to me for a small company to offer a native app. The PWA will let them get an icon on the home screen for better sell through just fine and they have a functional website in the bargain as well.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on August 14, 2022, 02:49:00 pm
Recently I was at an airport and tried to hail an Uber on my phone.  The app was so slow and unresponsive that I gave up, and walked over to the taxi rank instead....   Not only was this a lot easier and faster, but to my surprise, the cost was not higher than Uber!

Service quality of Uber has really deteriorated in the last 2-3 years I'd say.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: AnalogueLove1867 on August 14, 2022, 05:33:05 pm
How do visitors from out-of-town or out-of-country get a cab?

most ordinary cabs still respond to landlines or ordinary mobile phone calls.....
That is the case in Australia at least.
In fact all the major cabs here don't require a phone application at all.
So I don't understand what the issue is.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: AnalogueLove1867 on August 14, 2022, 05:44:54 pm

Service quality of Uber has really deteriorated in the last 2-3 years I'd say.

Uber is and always was a hipster "for the people by the people" startup that appeals to the lowest common denominator.
The worst passengers and the worst drivers are attracted to it like flies on a doggy doo.
It's the craigslist of taxi services.
As is typical for self-professed "entrepreneurs" these days, the founders Travis Kalanick and Garret Camp
are experts at selling ideas to investors and then after gaining enough traction, selling those ideas to huge corporations.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: AnalogueLove1867 on August 14, 2022, 06:07:57 pm
https://hackaday.com/2022/08/12/local-simulation-feature-to-be-removed-from-all-autodesk-fusion-360-versions/

I really wish there was some fully freeware CAD programs that were viable.  I find the ecosystem for CAD now days sucks because of this cloud based/subscription stuff.

The closest thing is FreeCAD, but it's not exactly intuitive to use at all.

I don't respect people
 that ask for free highly complex programs & technology and complain about poor quality of said free stuff.
It is the same people that have no problems with stealing other peoples ideas.
It is the same people who are only obsessed with privacy and freedom of speech because they are worried about police finding CP on their computer.
The same people jump through hoops every day like an acrobat to defend their terrible free programs whilst finding faults in non GNU / open-source software.
It is all weirdly tinged with a kind of ASD/communist/hippy mentality that is exemplified by Richard Stallman himself.
Everything would be so much better if the Linux / GNU / Hacker / freeware community was more like Linus Torvalds.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on August 14, 2022, 06:42:21 pm
I don't like people who ask me to change the license of my software from GPL to BSD because they want to take and don't want to give back...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on August 14, 2022, 07:14:36 pm
https://hackaday.com/2022/08/12/local-simulation-feature-to-be-removed-from-all-autodesk-fusion-360-versions/

Yes, Autodesk has a lot of telemetry to decide what to do next and how to earn $$$.

People who bought 3-years license and assumed all features been locked - delusion about that, some features moved to add-ons extra paid packages and effected on these too.
Why? Just read T&C!


Quote
Autodesk warrants that, for any paid subscription, as of the date on which the subscribed-for Offering is made available to You and for 90 days thereafter or, if the subscription period is shorter, such shorter period (“Warranty Period”), the Offering will provide the general features and functions described in the end-user Documentation for the Offering.

P.S.
A hard reality, not much alternative for similar functionality, do you want SolidWorks or NX perpetual license - be ready paid 5 figures upfront + maintenance to keep up the latest updates
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: olkipukki on August 14, 2022, 07:17:20 pm
I wish there was some affordable alternative to Autodesk.

Would a perpetual license cost equal to 1-year AutoCAD consider 'affordable'?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 14, 2022, 07:31:50 pm
I wish there was some affordable alternative to Autodesk.

Would a perpetual license cost equal to 1-year AutoCAD consider 'affordable'?

Depends entirely on the user wanting same. For me it wouldn't since I use TurboCAD (which is a perpetual license).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Red Squirrel on August 16, 2022, 02:21:31 am
https://hackaday.com/2022/08/12/local-simulation-feature-to-be-removed-from-all-autodesk-fusion-360-versions/

I really wish there was some fully freeware CAD programs that were viable.

I wish there was some affordable alternative to Autodesk. Asking for freeware just says no-one is interested in acknowledging others hard work, they just want free stuff, and the issue of cloud and subscriptions is overlooked. Please please please please please don't let's get an aversion to subscriptions be conflated with freetards.

True, something that I can pay ONCE for and also not need to remortgage my house would work too. 
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 16, 2022, 03:40:19 am
I remember that Solidworks can be obtained for relatively cheap through EAA. Not sure on the details.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: sokoloff on August 16, 2022, 10:21:25 am
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/eaa-membership/eaa-member-benefits/solidworks-resource-center (https://www.eaa.org/eaa/eaa-membership/eaa-member-benefits/solidworks-resource-center)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on August 17, 2022, 09:34:16 am
Google Cloud IoT Core goes on the end-of-life list: https://www.itnews.com.au/news/google-cloud-iot-core-goes-on-the-end-of-life-list-583990 (https://www.itnews.com.au/news/google-cloud-iot-core-goes-on-the-end-of-life-list-583990)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Bassman59 on August 17, 2022, 05:51:51 pm
Google Cloud IoT Core goes on the end-of-life list: https://www.itnews.com.au/news/google-cloud-iot-core-goes-on-the-end-of-life-list-583990 (https://www.itnews.com.au/news/google-cloud-iot-core-goes-on-the-end-of-life-list-583990)

Who could possibly have seen that coming.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on September 10, 2022, 10:14:46 pm
EAGLE 9.6.2 license startup error: 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-9-6-2-license-startup-error-503-service-temporarily/td-p/11412002 (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-9-6-2-license-startup-error-503-service-temporarily/td-p/11412002)

 :palm:


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 10, 2022, 10:27:30 pm
Google Cloud IoT Core goes on the end-of-life list: https://www.itnews.com.au/news/google-cloud-iot-core-goes-on-the-end-of-life-list-583990 (https://www.itnews.com.au/news/google-cloud-iot-core-goes-on-the-end-of-life-list-583990)

Who could possibly have seen that coming.
It launched in September 2017 and it will close down in August 2023. That's longer than Google keep most things alive.  :)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on September 26, 2022, 02:18:08 pm
If you think it's a good idea to rely on cloud storage: https://support.google.com/photos/thread/180787712/corrupted-photos
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on September 26, 2022, 02:32:08 pm
To be fair to Google (had to cross my fingers when I typed that) it looks like the original photos are OK and it's just the app's cached version.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: eti on September 27, 2022, 06:35:41 am
The only reliable cloud service is water storage.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: bpiphany on September 27, 2022, 10:42:33 am
The only reliable cloud service is water storage.

Isn't it a bit random where it falls out?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on September 27, 2022, 12:16:49 pm
The only reliable cloud service is water storage.

What, not even iCloud? You'll have to turn in your badge.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on September 29, 2022, 07:02:47 pm
And another Google service will be shut down:
- A message about Stadia and our long term streaming strategy (https://blog.google/products/stadia/message-on-stadia-streaming-strategy/ (https://blog.google/products/stadia/message-on-stadia-streaming-strategy/))
- Google is shutting down Stadia (https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/29/23378713/google-stadia-shutting-down-game-streaming-january-2023 (https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/29/23378713/google-stadia-shutting-down-game-streaming-january-2023))
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 29, 2022, 07:05:39 pm
- A message about Stadia and our long term streaming strategy
I don't think that 'r' belongs in streaming.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on September 30, 2022, 06:23:52 am
- A message about Stadia and our long term streaming strategy
I don't think that 'r' belongs in streaming.

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, Works for manufacturer not you
Post by: MrMobodies on September 30, 2022, 08:41:21 pm
I am still having difficulty believing Enphase had restricted access to the built in web server, then restrict and start to charge for "tokens" just to see stuff and get away with it.

https://support.enphase.com/s/question/0D53m000074fNdNCAU/enphase-10-is-the-system-controllable-over-the-network-without-relying-on-off-site-cloud-services

Quote
Kluttz_6334 asked a question. July 21, 2021 at 11:32 AM
Enphase 10 - Is the system controllable over the network without relying on off site cloud services?
I am very likely about to purchase an enphase solar system with encharge 10's on it. I am hearing that the system has an app :bullshit: for phones which typically means the system is reliant on cloud :bullshit: services that are not under my own control for my own system. I work in IT security and find it unacceptable :-+  that I have to authenticate to someone else's servers and request permission from THEM to change settings on something I own that exists behind my firewall in that home. It is digital equivalent to buying a home from a real estate agent and the agent keeping the keys and saying that they will let you in and out every time you need to pass through the door. Oh and they also need to know and approve everything every time you rearrange furniture or paint. I really need to be able to control settings on this system without any off site requirement.

Quote
Rother_3681 a year ago
Sonnenkult, when i use that link (http://envoy.local/ivp/ensemble/inventory (http://envoy.local/ivp/ensemble/inventory)) i get a dialog asking for my user and pw. When i enter that, i get a 401 Unauthorized or a 403 Forbidden error. I am OK not changing the battery mode, but it's important to me to know the state of charge. Any advise?

Quote
Nakashian_6446 Edited December 18, 2021 at 8:24 PM
that URL http://envoy.local/ivp/ensemble/inventory (http://envoy.local/ivp/ensemble/inventory) now is going to give you 401 Unauthorized, after firmware update D7.0.68, even if you use installer password that firmware was just pushed 2 days ago. It will redirect you to https://envoy.ip/home#auth (https://envoy.ip/home#auth) asking you for access token. There is no instruction how to get that token
...

Quote
Nakashian_6446 9 months ago
@Marcol that API under user ID is how enlighten data can be accessed, there are different tiers, only Watts tier is free if number of hits is below a certain count. here's the price plan that enphase will charge if your code hits too many times.
https://developer.enphase.com/plans?utm_source=community&utm_medium=answer_links&utm_campaign=internal_reference (https://developer.enphase.com/plans?utm_source=community&utm_medium=answer_links&utm_campaign=internal_reference)

I used to give my utility company "Reliant" access to enlighten via the API method. But just to be sure, I did grab the API key from this screen and used it as access token to my local device it didn't work. the Local envoy access seems to require access token that expire around 1hr. There is no programmatic way to renew the access token, so my home automation is dead in water on using local envoy.

My home automation used this URL http://envoy.local/ivp/ensemble/inventory (http://envoy.local/ivp/ensemble/inventory) to figure out if I'm on the grid still or backup battery, and turned off power to some appliances to conserve power, most of the time, it seems when I loose power, I also loose internet access, so * Enlighten access is not a full proof solution, even the Iphone Entune app on cellular signal wasn't functioning properly when I lost power a couple of days ago, so I couldn't tell if I was on backup battery or on the grid. The city I live in, it seems power loss happens frequently.

* Joke (Sarcasm): He is completely wrong, it IS a 'bullet proof' solution that will ALWAYS works for Enphase as long as they are business. When they are out of business well it isn't going to matter to them anymore . It is all about the Enphase, how important they are and the brightest minds of society working there and their feelings towards the insignificant buyers who are stupid and confused, don't know what they are doing for these naturally born geniuses to know better that the mass majority need internet and a website half way around the world in the middle to work at all time for whatever it is they are trying to do.

Quote
MarcoI 9 months ago
@Nakashian_6446​  Gotcha. looks like i just got the * updated FW as well, i now see the token page. If Enphase wants to security it they should just a Authenticator app vs token page. My token page doesnt work at the moment so i cant log into the local unit right now.

*When they say the term, 'taking the p*ss' that has to be it.
So it is not security they want it is tokens paid for after a certain of hits.

Third class citizens of their own stuff that they brought and paid for.

Are they classing those who want to view the stats to their satisfaction developers in order to charge them these tokens?

I am thinking, do they think their customers are stupid. I know I asked this before in another thread. Would you be stupid enough to own such a system (let alone inadvertently allowing access to the manufacturer to do as they as please with it via the broadband) but when those who don't realize what they are being sold and what is happening and then are stuck with it then I can imagine they woudn't want to admit it at first until things get better and I believe I might know how they would feel as similar things happened to me many times before that were out of my control. I'd myself feel cheated and angry and feel like hurling a lot abuse at them down the phone all day and week which of course won't lead anywhere and I have feeling they might enjoy that too secretly but that is just my perception.

I believe what may be right in that situation would be to call up the contractor/installer and demand for them to replace it or make to the way it was before (if changed like that) or have them rip it out and go to court over it.

A solution that works for them but not always for the customer when they feel like it.

Tokens aka fee, what an insult.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on September 30, 2022, 11:16:22 pm
Not having the pleasure of a decent roof to put a load of panels on, what happens when you decide you want a system? Do you specify the parts and get someone to put them up, or do you buy a system from an installer? If the latter, it would be interesting to know if they get a kickback or something for using the Enphase controllers.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on October 01, 2022, 02:56:17 am
No we didn't go for Enphase stuff which was in one of the quotes.
They showed us what they were proposing.

I was shocked that his cloud nonsense has grown bigger with lying to people that their inverter can't datalog and monitor locally without internet and their hosting, and then restricting the built in webserver (on models that did have them when brought new) through forced updates and now restricting the website API and charging to see or use certain things.

Actually the contract/installers that were chosen (I didn't choose them) were quite good in that, in light all of this "cloud" only nonsense I have been fed by many manufacturers of these inverters about their "smart wifi sticks" as the only means possible, that we had been quoted on, I decided if it is not "in house" it is no good, I'm no interested, so no monitoring. For a start I'd want it wired not through wifi. Also I was told I could change many aspects on the inverter through the websites such as operating voltages and frequencies which is a big nono if becomes compromised.

I asked the installer when I pointed out that the insurance policy excludes (first and third party damage due viruses pc malware, pc code, hacking, misuse etc.) and they took me seriously on my requests that once it is working, to disable all wifi and bluetooth signals after they leave and I want the invterter left alone. They also written in the quote "owner manages system" and they didn't set a password for the installer menu's on that or the charger which we will do soon so that is nice.

They said they couldn't help with the monitoring solution.

After I discovered the inverter that they put in did have a built in ethernet port The manual stated that it is for pc monitoring and third party monitoring but the manufacturer Fox ess lied to me on inquiring about that and said it was "reserved port" and non functioning when it did work with Modbus and is now functioning with a ready made package from a Homeassistant appliance.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on October 01, 2022, 06:55:12 am
If there were a chance we'd install any panels, I'd ask you for their phone number :)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on October 01, 2022, 07:29:15 am
If you are in England I suppose I could.

I started a thread on it and here are screenshots of it working:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/foxess-inverter-ethernet-data-to-pc-data-and-other-monitoring-lie/msg4421923/#msg4421923 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/foxess-inverter-ethernet-data-to-pc-data-and-other-monitoring-lie/msg4421923/#msg4421923)

And at the bottom when I discovered some of the horrors of Enphase.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on October 02, 2022, 08:19:12 am
Stadia controllers could become e-waste unless Google issues Bluetooth update: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/09/stadia-controllers-could-become-e-waste-unless-google-issues-bluetooth-update/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: 50ShadesOfDirt on October 02, 2022, 05:34:51 pm
To post #120 ("paper defense" moved to the ms store) ... it's not too hard to access any free item in the store from a different site or method, and then you can pick apart the executables (x64, x32, arm, etc.) and the needed libraries (vclibxxxx, etc.) ... with these in hand, run the program on any reasonable os.

#1 ... see if the item is also on github, like "Windows Terminal". If you can get the item there, easiest of all. Some things are dev'd on github, and then packaged up and pushed to the ms store.

#2 ... get the "product id" of the ms store item. take that to the site(s) that will translate the id into the actual files that make it up. With the same files downloaded that are "locked" behind the ms store, now you can test running them on any other recent os (win7, etc.)

If you'll google accessing microsoft store programs offline (using product id), you'll find the same methods I was successful with. I ripped the ms store off of my win10 machine some time ago (using powershell), and when I wanted to get at Windows Terminal, I used both of these methods to get at the actual files.

Not a perfect system, but a workaround that gets me at some things (many things?) now supposedly "locked" in the store ...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on October 02, 2022, 05:54:38 pm
Quote
and then you can pick apart the executables (x64, x32, arm, etc.) and the needed libraries (vclibxxxx, etc.)

Thanks for the info, but I think it misses the point of my posts, which was that Microsoft is doing their best to prevent things running on Windows 7 for no reason other than to force people onto W10.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on October 22, 2022, 04:36:05 pm
If you think that providers of cloud services know what they are doing then you might be interested in a tiny Azure incident:
- SOCRadar's blog post about a misconfigured data bucket: https://socradar.io/sensitive-data-of-65000-entities-in-111-countries-leaked-due-to-a-single-misconfigured-data-bucket/
- MS's comment: https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2022/10/19/investigation-regarding-misconfigured-microsoft-storage-location-2/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 22, 2022, 07:53:55 pm
Ah, great!  ;D
There sure are a lot of underlying issues, technical and otherwise.

But one very effective way of making something dodgy "work" is... to make it mandatory. Let's see how that goes. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on December 30, 2022, 08:15:47 pm
"As D-Link continues to refocus on developing products and solutions that provide our customers the most value and highest security, we are announcing the End of Service for the mydlink Home and mydlink Baby Monitor Apps and Cloud Services on December 30, 2022."

https://www.mydlink.com/faq#id-topFAQ/ans-4242 (https://www.mydlink.com/faq#id-topFAQ/ans-4242)

Email:

"Dear Customers,

We got in touch earlier this year to inform you about the End-of-Service of your mydlink Home and mydlink Baby Camera Monitor on the 30th of December 2022. As such, all devices using the announced apps (listed in table below) will stop working as of the 30th of December 2022 (CST). These includes:

Model number
mydlink Home DCS-935LH, DCS-8200LH, DCS-5025L, DSP-W110, DSP-W215, DCH-S150, DCH-S160, DCH-G020, DCH-G020X, DCH-Z110, DCH-S220, DCH-Z120, DCH-Z310
mydlink Baby Camera Monitor DCS-700L, DCS-800L, DCS-820L, DCS-825L , DCS-850L, DCS-855L
While we try to maintain support and related services after our products are sold for as long as possible, technologies evolve and security requirements change, which means we had to make this difficult decision.

Your mydlink account, which you might be using for other mydlink apps, will continue to be active after the End-of-Service date. If you do not wish to keep your mydlink account, please click here to delete it.

We apologize for the inconvenience this may cause and thank you again for your understanding."

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TimFox on December 30, 2022, 09:21:32 pm
At least their form letter did not say "For your convenience, we are forcing your hardware to stop working tomorrow."
(Emphasis added, as academic writers say.)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on December 31, 2022, 12:47:16 pm
And more happy subscription customers: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/22/12/30/1940230/sage-accused-of-strong-arm-tactics-over-move-to-software-subscriptions
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 01, 2023, 11:46:29 pm
And more happy subscription customers: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/22/12/30/1940230/sage-accused-of-strong-arm-tactics-over-move-to-software-subscriptions

Sadly, as long as enough "inexperienced" people keep paying...  the rest of us have to as well.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: mendip_discovery on January 02, 2023, 09:21:36 am
There are good and bad things about this model. It's annoying when they do an update and remove a feature. But back when I was younger I couldn't afford the cost for Photoshop on it's own but I was expected to learn it, these days it's a bit cheaper.

The worst bit about the sub model is that it all adds up. 5 for this a month, 20 for that next thing you know you have a lot of money going out but even though you have paid 500 to that firm for software you never get to keep the version you have if you stop paying.

I do grumble at the fact that new features are only small upgrades and no major upgrades as development has slowed. Then there is the we removed this feature and if you would like to use it you have to upgrade to the pro++ version.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on January 02, 2023, 10:15:16 am
Quote
British businesses have complained about the tactics used by Sage, the UK's largest listed tech company, to push them into accepting more expensive subscription services or have access to their existing accounting software packages switched off. From a report:
Small companies across the UK rely on the FTSE 100 company's Sage50 software for book-keeping, sending invoices, processing orders and helping with tax payments. But in recent months, Sage has pushed customers who had been sold single-payment, long-term licences to the software on to monthly subscriptions that work out to be more expensive over the long run, by saying they would turn off their licences on security grounds, despite having no specific grounds to do so in their terms and conditions.

"It's a pitload of crap," said Kate Barton, owner of model train company Reeves 2000, who last upgraded her so-called perpetual package in January 2019 for a licence she expected to last 15 years. Barton now faces monthly payments of $187 on a subscription model. "This is a bigger picture of the way things are going, where we're forced on to a subscription for everything," she said. "It's quite frightening." Under the direction of chief executive Steve Hare, Sage's focus on subscription software forms part of a plan to achieve more regular recurring revenues, which would make it less vulnerable to the income shocks that can occur from an overreliance on new customers making one-off purchases.

https://www.theregister.com/2022/09/30/sage_subscription_licensing/ (https://www.theregister.com/2022/09/30/sage_subscription_licensing/)
Quote
A Sage spokesperson told The Register: "Customers who have an active support contract with Sage – whether it is perpetual or subscription – are entitled to the latest version of software, at no extra cost. Customers are not required to change their contract to a subscription to upgrade. If they have an active contract, there is no cost to upgrade."

"Customers are not required to change contracts."

Sounds to me like they are lying.

Joke:
"As D-Link continues to refocus on developing abandoning products and solutions that cost our customers more and highest restrictions, we are announcing the End of Service to brick for the mydlink Home and mydlink Baby Monitor Apps and Cloud Services on December 30, 2022."

https://www.mydlink.com/faq#id-topFAQ/ans-4242 (https://www.mydlink.com/faq#id-topFAQ/ans-4242)

Email:

"Dear Customers,

We got in touch earlier this year to inform you about the End-of-Service of about bricking your mydlink Home and mydlink Baby Camera Monitor (NO PORTABLE SCREEN APP/PHONE ONLY) on the 30th of December 2022. As such, all devices using the announced apps (listed in table below) will stop working as of the 30th of December 2022 (CST). These includes:

Model number
mydlink Home DCS-935LH, DCS-8200LH, DCS-5025L, DSP-W110, DSP-W215, DCH-S150, DCH-S160, DCH-G020, DCH-G020X, DCH-Z110, hDCH-S220, DCH-Z120, DCH-Z310
mydlink Baby Camera Monitor DCS-700L, DCS-800L, DCS-820L, DCS-825L , DCS-850L, DCS-855L
While we try to maintain support and related services after our products are sold for as long as possible, we don't have to, technologies :bullshit: evolve and security requirements change, means we had to make this difficult decision which gives us the excuse we need to do what we feel like.

Your mydlink account, which you might be using for other mydlink apps, will continue to be active after the End-of-Service date. If you do not wish to keep your mydlink account, please click here to delete it.

We apologize for the inconvenience this may cause and thanks you again for your for understanding our bullshit."
When I buy something I now have to ask myself, can it be operated after the end of life or when the manufacturer ceases.
To me I find them more like rental if they depend and cease to stop working on the manufacturers say so and other dependencies.

Joke: Let us educate you a bit. We have to pay a team of people to maintain that thing you brought. Why should we continue to pay them when they have better things to do, like concentrate on the latest "better" "newer" tecnhnologies. We have to pay for our webhosting and storage just for you to continue using that camera and it is going to cost us more when we release new products when you could be one of those,

With these models we will take that handheld screen away and tie it your phone and us and it's dependencies.

I think I will settle for an old baby cam monitor out of a charity shop.

Just found this:
https://babysensemonitors.co.uk/products/compact-video-baby-monitor-v24r-2cams (https://babysensemonitors.co.uk/products/compact-video-baby-monitor-v24r-2cams)
Compact Video Baby Monitor with 2 Cameras, V24R-2 £89.99
(https://i.imgur.com/ZSy8hiK.jpg)

It is even sensible as in the name: Babysense view in that it will always be there with an external monitor as long as it is working.

Any wifi, remote access or "cloud" manufacturer solution in my view should be secondary where the camera is open to other providers, not just Dicklink and continues to work with a portable lcd screen provided with it.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dlink.mydlinkbaby&hl=en&gl=US (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dlink.mydlinkbaby&hl=en&gl=US)
Just noticed the Playstore link taken down, no cached page and the ratings on what is left:
(https://i.imgur.com/5HqUU0U.jpg)
Quote
mydlink Baby Camera Monitor from play.google.com
31 Aug 2022 — Turn your mobile device into a baby monitor with the mydlink Baby Camera Monitor app. The app allows you to view, configure, ...
 Rating: 2.5 · ‎4,185 votes · ‎Free · ‎Android · ‎Utilities/Tools
So half of the customers may not be very pleased with it.

Apple:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/mydlink-baby-camera-monitor/id718860628 (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/mydlink-baby-camera-monitor/id718860628)
Quote
The app allows you to view, configure, and control your compatible D-Link baby camera using your mobile device. View your baby camera's live video no matter ...
Rating: 1.3 · ‎84 reviews · ‎Free · ‎iOS · ‎Business/Productivity
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: mendip_discovery on January 02, 2023, 11:09:56 am
...

Think of it from the Corp pov. People are still using a old bit of tech and our sales of new gadgets is falling. The cloud system we have is hosted on AWS and its costing us money. Let's get rid of the AWS and setup on google as they have offered us a discount. Rebrand and remake new software and now we can sell new hardware but with a subscription if you want to use our wanky AI stuff that will tell you in real time when your baby has sharted. This remains ok until new fad appears.

Sage on the other hand, our firm was using some 15 year old version and only upgraded the wage part due to new uk laws. If it works people dont want to replace it. Sage hates this as they loose money. There are competitors out there doing clever stuff and it's all cloud based and cheaper that buying sage outright so they needed a way to get customers back and in the darkness bind them.

The thing is companies can now obsolete stuff again. It used to be hardware but that slowed down over the past 10 years. Now we have a software tie in thanks to the cloud.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 02, 2023, 01:03:04 pm
...

Think of it from the Corp pov. People are still using a old bit of tech and our sales of new gadgets is falling. The cloud system we have is hosted on AWS and its costing us money. Let's get rid of the AWS and setup on google as they have offered us a discount. Rebrand and remake new software and now we can sell new hardware but with a subscription if you want to use our wanky AI stuff that will tell you in real time when your baby has sharted. This remains ok until new fad appears.

Sage on the other hand, our firm was using some 15 year old version and only upgraded the wage part due to new uk laws. If it works people dont want to replace it. Sage hates this as they loose money. There are competitors out there doing clever stuff and it's all cloud based and cheaper that buying sage outright so they needed a way to get customers back and in the darkness bind them.

The thing is companies can now obsolete stuff again. It used to be hardware but that slowed down over the past 10 years. Now we have a software tie in thanks to the cloud.

Exactly -  a subscription service is continuous planned obsolescence...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on January 02, 2023, 02:37:48 pm
...

Think of it from the Corp pov. People are still using a old bit of tech and our sales of new gadgets is falling. The cloud system we have is hosted on AWS and its costing us money. Let's get rid of the AWS and setup on google as they have offered us a discount. Rebrand and remake new software and now we can sell new hardware but with a subscription if you want to use our wanky AI stuff that will tell you in real time when your baby has sharted. This remains ok until new fad appears.

Sage on the other hand, our firm was using some 15 year old version and only upgraded the wage part due to new uk laws. If it works people dont want to replace it. Sage hates this as they loose money. There are competitors out there doing clever stuff and it's all cloud based and cheaper that buying sage outright so they needed a way to get customers back and in the darkness bind them.

The thing is companies can now obsolete stuff again. It used to be hardware but that slowed down over the past 10 years. Now we have a software tie in thanks to the cloud.

Exactly -  a subscription service is continuous planned obsolescence...

More refined and down to earth definition is ... feudalism.

As its proven to work flawlessly for thousand of years in human civilization, like the landlord that owns the land where "us" the peasant will work on their land forever and for "generations" ... just to barely survive, to ensure your next generation will work even harder to serve the landlord.

Yep, this thingy is very aligned with the current global political hot motto ... "own nothing and be happy".  >:D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 02, 2023, 03:10:31 pm
...

Think of it from the Corp pov. People are still using a old bit of tech and our sales of new gadgets is falling. The cloud system we have is hosted on AWS and its costing us money. Let's get rid of the AWS and setup on google as they have offered us a discount. Rebrand and remake new software and now we can sell new hardware but with a subscription if you want to use our wanky AI stuff that will tell you in real time when your baby has sharted. This remains ok until new fad appears.

Sage on the other hand, our firm was using some 15 year old version and only upgraded the wage part due to new uk laws. If it works people dont want to replace it. Sage hates this as they loose money. There are competitors out there doing clever stuff and it's all cloud based and cheaper that buying sage outright so they needed a way to get customers back and in the darkness bind them.

The thing is companies can now obsolete stuff again. It used to be hardware but that slowed down over the past 10 years. Now we have a software tie in thanks to the cloud.

Exactly -  a subscription service is continuous planned obsolescence...

More refined and down to earth definition is ... feudalism.

As its proven to work flawlessly for thousand of years in human civilization, like the landlord that owns the land where "us" the peasant will work on their land forever and for "generations" ... just to barely survive, to ensure your next generation will work even harder to serve the landlord.

Yep, this thingy is very aligned with the current global political hot motto ... "own nothing and be happy".  >:D

The situation isn't helped by people that voluntarily "rush into slavery" by getting over their ears in debt, buying expensive toys they don't need, overdoing housing, etc. etc. etc.!  (pushing up prices for the rest of us in the process, by overbidding everything!)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on January 02, 2023, 03:37:21 pm
Exactly -  a subscription service is continuous planned obsolescence...

Perfect match for CI/CD. This year we'll go for CI/CD/CPO! >:D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: mendip_discovery on January 02, 2023, 04:47:58 pm
...

Think of it from the Corp pov. People are still using a old bit of tech and our sales of new gadgets is falling. The cloud system we have is hosted on AWS and its costing us money. Let's get rid of the AWS and setup on google as they have offered us a discount. Rebrand and remake new software and now we can sell new hardware but with a subscription if you want to use our wanky AI stuff that will tell you in real time when your baby has sharted. This remains ok until new fad appears.

Sage on the other hand, our firm was using some 15 year old version and only upgraded the wage part due to new uk laws. If it works people dont want to replace it. Sage hates this as they loose money. There are competitors out there doing clever stuff and it's all cloud based and cheaper that buying sage outright so they needed a way to get customers back and in the darkness bind them.

The thing is companies can now obsolete stuff again. It used to be hardware but that slowed down over the past 10 years. Now we have a software tie in thanks to the cloud.

Exactly -  a subscription service is continuous planned obsolescence...

More refined and down to earth definition is ... feudalism.

As its proven to work flawlessly for thousand of years in human civilization, like the landlord that owns the land where "us" the peasant will work on their land forever and for "generations" ... just to barely survive, to ensure your next generation will work even harder to serve the landlord.

Yep, this thingy is very aligned with the current global political hot motto ... "own nothing and be happy".  >:D

There was big land owners but every time one died the government took a chuck of the money until the land owners went bankrupt and has to sell thier houses to a charity (National Trust). Its moving back towards that system but with the modern twist that the houses are owned by a business that means it can get passed onto the kids with less of a tax risk.

Thing is all the nice stuff is just so expensive, the only way to own it is to risk it or rent it. The whole EV market is geared to supporting those that can afford them. The poor people soon wont be allowed to drive unless they lease a EV.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on January 02, 2023, 07:50:52 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2017/mar/30/cloud-avoid-pc-microsoft-windows (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2017/mar/30/cloud-avoid-pc-microsoft-windows)
Quote
How long will I be able to avoid the cloud?
*Brian likes to have everything on his own Windows PC and doesn’t want to share anything with others. Can he avoid using the cloud?
‘I have a feeling that Microsoft and others want everyone to sign up to the cloud.’
Jack Schofield Thu 30 Mar 2017 10.03 BST

Given that people have, or will have, a plethora :bullshit: of intelligent devices, they will certainly need a way to monitor and control them, receive error messages, and synchronise data between them. You’re not going to do that without the cloud. :bullshit:
*Why SHOULD Brian share if he doesn't want to?

So he is saying "ONLY WAY" to control them is "the cloud", "none of your business how it works... RUBBISH!
"You are not going to do that without the cloud"
Bullshit:
I heard that one before with the same attitude and I did many many times before and I just did it despite being told the nonsense (thanks to the opensource community and Homeasstant) looking back at how I was lied to about the Foxess Inverter and the ethernet port and all the other inverter manufacturers and their stupid "SMART WIFI" sticks.

Quote
In sum, you can’t avoid the cloud completely, unless you give up your internet connection and swap your smartphone for a dumb one. Of course, you will have difficulty updating Windows 10, and might consider switching to Linux, which doesn’t have a consumer-oriented ecosystem.
In what way? I thought it does enough to do basic stuff.

Bullshit: I don't NEED to give up my internet connection and insinuating? that a "smart phone" won't work without internet connectivity.
I DO have a smartphone with an old OS and another I installed LineagOs that I specifically use for certain tasks and internet browsing is not one of them for the older and it doesn't nag for updates. I still use the old from 2018, still works and it has a removable battery.  The programs I installed, which I checked at the time are none freemium don't really auto update but a donate in the info/about. I think I still have the original APK files for them somewhere.

Quote
If you plan to stay online and use a smartphone, then best accept that Windows 10 benefits from cloud integration and *exploit the cross-platform apps and online services. There are far worse things to worry about, including what Al Gore called the web’s “stalker economy”, British and American government snooping, and the huge cybercrime industry.
The author sounds to me like they are *for it* and promoting this nonsense with the distracting of the fear of government spying.

*Until they start EXPLOITING YOU by starting charging a subscription fee for everything if they have the numbers and own the majority with this attitude.

Quote
Smartphones are now ***cloud-integrated devices. *They are monitored and updated from the cloud, and the cloud is used to install and update apps, collect photos and data for longer-term storage, and to provide streaming media, messaging and other online services. These include **intelligent assistants, such as Apple’s Siri and Microsoft’s Cortana. You can still buy “feature phones”, but if you use a smartphone, you’re using the cloud.
*From the manufacturer.
** I don't want an "intelligent assistant" that is what the ability to think is there for.

It is not that I am avoiding, "the cloud", as the article is stating, which might be useful for certain things, secondary backups, temporary short term use but I don't want to use it as a primary means for storage and dependency where it takes over and other people who own it starting controlling me directly through it when they feel like it. A big nono.

*** No I don't want my phone to be made into an equivalent of a dumb terminal.

Then he starts describing it as "THE ECOSYSTEM :bullshit:"
Quote
Google’s ecosystem :bullshit: is based on doing everything online, preferably via its Chrome web browser on PCs, tablets and smartphones. It has marketed some hardware, including smartphones, tablets and Chromebooks, and it’s trying to ramp up its cloud platform. However, it still makes almost all of its money from web-standard surveillance-based advertising.

Microsoft’s ecosystem is based on selling Windows-related software and services, but unlike Google, it lets you work “on premise” with your own PCs, servers and software or online with Office 365 and OneDrive. Unlike Apple, it doesn’t care who makes the hardware you use. (Remember that Microsoft was the Mac’s biggest supporter when it was launched in 1984, and Microsoft Office first appeared on the Mac.) Today, Microsoft has dozens of apps for Apple iOS and Android smartphones and tablets, and it’s hosting Linux in its Azure cloud and in Windows 10. (See How to Install and Use the Linux Bash Shell on Windows 10)

Some of the wording sounds very condescending to me:
Buzzword bullshit: "The technology", "apps on your pc", "intelligent assistant", excessive referring of "the cloud" like I am somewhat stupid, "smartphone", "update apps", "The ECOSYSTEM"

Some good news is that Microsoft has Released Office 2021 for a one time fee:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/p/office-professional-2021/cfq7ttc0hhj9?activetab=pivot:overviewtab (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/p/office-professional-2021/cfq7ttc0hhj9?activetab=pivot:overviewtab)

Quote
Microsoft Office Professional 2021 $439.99
For 1 PC For 1 person
One-time purchase for 1 PC

Classic 2021 versions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and Outlook, plus Publisher and Access
Microsoft support included for first 60 days at no extra cost
Compatible with Windows 11 and Windows 10*
Works with Microsoft Teams
A bit expensive but isn't that nice they are providing a choice for those who want it long term?

And then there's opensource stuff like OpenOffice and Libreoffice as far as I know doesn't need "internet" to work.

With my copy of Windows 10 Enterprse LTSC that I made some alterations to, I emptied and set the Task Scheduler folders for the Update Orchestrator service so it does not have permissions to recreate the keys, default user permissions and to do what it likes.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on January 03, 2023, 05:03:47 am
More refined and down to earth definition is ... feudalism.

As its proven to work flawlessly for thousand of years in human civilization, like the landlord that owns the land where "us" the peasant will work on their land forever and for "generations" ... just to barely survive, to ensure your next generation will work even harder to serve the landlord.

Yep, this thingy is very aligned with the current global political hot motto ... "own nothing and be happy".  >:D

There was big land owners but every time one died the government took a chuck of the money until the land owners went bankrupt and has to sell thier houses to a charity (National Trust). Its moving back towards that system but with the modern twist that the houses are owned by a business that means it can get passed onto the kids with less of a tax risk.

Thing is all the nice stuff is just so expensive, the only way to own it is to risk it or rent it. The whole EV market is geared to supporting those that can afford them. The poor people soon wont be allowed to drive unless they lease a EV.
This goes in cycles. The royal families of Europe were very happy to cow tow to the Catholic church, as it gave them legitimacy without too much cost. Then the Catholic church changed its rules, and within a short time owned a substantial percentage of the land mass of Europe. It might have been people like Martin Luther and Calvin who got various forms of protestantism started, but it was royalty rebelling against the cost of being Catholic that really made their message mainstream.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on January 05, 2023, 07:49:44 pm
Some good news is that Microsoft has Released Office 2021 for a one time fee:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/p/office-professional-2021/cfq7ttc0hhj9?activetab=pivot:overviewtab (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/p/office-professional-2021/cfq7ttc0hhj9?activetab=pivot:overviewtab)

I still have a copy of Office 2003, it does absolutely everything I need Office to do. This is exactly why they started pushing the subscription model so hard, they know products like Office matured over 20 years ago and have only had incremental changes since then. The vast majority of people, even high budget corporations are not going to upgrade every year to the latest version.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on January 05, 2023, 10:14:41 pm
Some good news is that Microsoft has Released Office 2021 for a one time fee:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/p/office-professional-2021/cfq7ttc0hhj9?activetab=pivot:overviewtab (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/p/office-professional-2021/cfq7ttc0hhj9?activetab=pivot:overviewtab)

I still have a copy of Office 2003, it does absolutely everything I need Office to do. This is exactly why they started pushing the subscription model so hard, they know products like Office matured over 20 years ago and have only had incremental changes since then. The vast majority of people, even high budget corporations are not going to upgrade every year to the latest version.

It's interesting to see they have a recent version with a perpetual license, but they are still screwing you up in some way compared to what it used to be, as they'll provide support only for the first 60 days.
You used to be entitled to support with no time limit with a perpetual license. Usually.
Oh well.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Geoff-AU on January 07, 2023, 05:49:24 am
Libre Office seems to have better save file compatibility with MS Office these days (ie, saving a file in MS Office format seems to work on MS Office better than it used to).

I avoid subscriptions like the plague, MS operating systems do my head in these days too (Windows 7 was great, they lost me after that).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on January 11, 2023, 07:14:01 pm
Arlo Is Ending Support For Its Old Cameras & Customers Aren't Happy: https://screenrant.com/arlo-ending-support-old-cameras-customer-reactions/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on January 11, 2023, 08:31:23 pm
Quote
MickyB3  ‎2022-12-31 07:24 PM

I’m in the same boat got 6 cameras with half of them bought in 2019 (4030 model) so only a few years old. The EOL letter stinks of greed especially the 7 day cloud cancellation unless you subscribe for additional cost. Very disappointed Arlo, loved your products but will be moving to another platform and recommending to all my IT friends to jump ship so they afford future dishonest practices. A real shame. Please also learn what or EOL means as it’s not money!!!!
If that is another "cloud" only platform it could be bound to happen again.

If it can work as a normal cctv camera where it uses standard protocols for streaming to DVR's and websites unlocked for the user then they might think twice (unless a technicality/compatibility) but they choose to buy into this business model and expect it to last on someone else's property. So when it stops working there the customers can't use it.

https://www.arlo.com/pl_pl/support/faq/1018425/What-is-continuous-video-recording-CVR-and-how-do-I-use-it (https://www.arlo.com/pl_pl/support/faq/1018425/What-is-continuous-video-recording-CVR-and-how-do-I-use-it)
Quote
What is continuous video recording (CVR) and how do I use it?
Continuous video recording (CVR) is an optional feature available on Arlo Ultra, Pro 2, Q, Q Plus, and Baby cameras. With * CVR activated on one of your cameras, you can record all the action 24/7. CVR captures everything in the background, and you can rewind to catch anything you missed.

CVR-capable cameras record continuously, in addition to the recordings based on the modes and rules that you set in the Arlo app.

Note: Arlo does not currently support downloading CVR videos  :bullshit: ; you can only watch them from the cloud  :bullshit: . CVR is not available for Arlo Pro or Arlo Wire-Free cameras. CVR recordings are in 1080p.

What you need
To use CVR, you need the following:
A compatible Arlo camera
Arlo Ultra, Pro 3, Pro 2, Q, Q Plus, or Baby camera
A 14-day or 30-day CVR subscription
For more information, visit Arlo Smart Plans  :bullshit: .
An outdoor or indoor power adapter
Arlo cameras must be plugged in to AC power to support CVR.
Buzzword bullshit: Arlo App, from the cloud, Smart plans.

*For a fee on storage already brought?

Joke: You can't do that, nevermind how, none of your business! you can only do that from "the cloud" up there when it is there using a "smart" plan we prepared because you are so damn stupid we had to make a plan up for you.


https://screenrant.com/arlo-ending-support-old-cameras-customer-reactions/ (https://screenrant.com/arlo-ending-support-old-cameras-customer-reactions/)
Quote
Alongside the Arlo Gen 3, support is also ending on April 1 for the Arlo Pro released in 2016. These devices will continue to receive motion notifications, work for live stream video, and store video clips locally with a compatible Arlo base station. However, they will no longer receive email notifications, security and software upgrades, and will also lose support for seven-day cloud storage.
So they do have some functionality as long as the phone os and app supports it.

Quote
Arlo says that the EOL policy, which is effective starting Jan. 1, 2023, applies to all Arlo products including subscriptions, and hardware devices bundled with services. It goes on to say that the policy will include an 'EOL Effective Date' for an Arlo product. For now, the EOL effective date will be no earlier than four years from the date that the product was last mass-produced. Using its first camera product, the 2014 Arlo Gen 3, as an example, Arlo says the EOL effective date began counting from January 2019, which was its last manufacture date. This means the product reached its end of life in January 2023.
Four years? Even a Home Monitor camera that was pulled out of job in 2015 given to me continued to function until 2020 when it failed and that was before I think they did away with the website portal.

Quote
However, the end of support for the device will come into effect on April 1, 2023. This is in line with Arlo's policy to provide a 90-day notice for a product that is a hardware device or a hardware device bundled with a service. Services will only receive a 30-day prior notice. Interestingly, Arlo says that it can change the EOL Effective Date for certain hardware devices beyond four years after its last day of manufacture. Arlo adds that users can switch to its new cloud storage service which is available with its Arlo Secure subscription service, but no support, spare parts, or replacements will be available. Unsurprisingly, customers have taken the announcement badly with many describing it as a cash grab by Arlo while others have decided to switch to a different brand and stop recommending Arlo products to friends and families.

These reactions are expected considering Arlo promised these users free cloud storage when they purchased the cameras. As a matter of fact, this was a selling point for its cameras. To make matters worse, the company seems to be making it impossible for users to contact it to express their grievances. It is therefore not surprising that some users are already thinking of filing a class action lawsuit against Arlo.
Will be interesting to see what happens.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: rdl on January 12, 2023, 05:28:52 pm
Quote
Some good news is that Microsoft has Released Office 2021 for a one time fee

$440 !!!
Thanks, but I'll stick with Libre Office
I'm pretty sure I also have a copy of Office 2003 in a box somewhere.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Terry Bites on January 13, 2023, 03:58:14 pm
When the cloud gets big enough its going to rain.
Preciptation is expected.

Files- Software- Web. Why would anyone keep all their eggs in one basket?
If you need to be able to log in and work from anywhere your life's gone badly wrong!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 13, 2023, 05:22:01 pm

Not only is the cloud a bad place to get services from, it is also bad when it makes its way into products that you wouldn't expect.

It is proving impossible to update the navigation system in my Ford car, solely because it is more than 10 years old...  Basically, the policy seems to be that the system is supported with map updates only for the 10 year design life of the vehicle...   It is an artificial restriction, not a technical one, because the same model was made for several years after mine, with the same navigation system, and those vehicles are still supported.

Looks like the increasing amount of software that has to be maintained in modern cars, is being incorporated into a planned obsolescence scheme.   Can't have people cheating the system by not scrapping cars after 10 years!

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on January 13, 2023, 06:26:04 pm
It is proving impossible to update the navigation system in my Ford car, solely because it is more than 10 years old...  Basically, the policy seems to be that the system is supported with map updates only for the 10 year design life of the vehicle...   It is an artificial restriction, not a technical one,

Looks like the increasing amount of software that has to be maintained in modern cars, is being incorporated into a planned obsolescence

So you can still use it. I use to like the GPS integrated in some cars with the big screens over 10 years ago. Nothing for the burglars to steal where I'd have to put them away.

Seeing in one car how Volkswagen car quoted us with a yearly subscription, £400 to start with I think and £100 thereafter (updates via usb stick) and now the obsolescence I think I might as well buy them as a separate unit where they are standalone not influenced by everything else.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on January 13, 2023, 10:42:07 pm
It is proving impossible to update the navigation system in my Ford car, solely because it is more than 10 years old...  Basically, the policy seems to be that the system is supported with map updates only for the 10 year design life of the vehicle...   It is an artificial restriction, not a technical one,

Looks like the increasing amount of software that has to be maintained in modern cars, is being incorporated into a planned obsolescence

So you can still use it. I use to like the GPS integrated in some cars with the big screens over 10 years ago. Nothing for the burglars to steal where I'd have to put them away.

Seeing in one car how Volkswagen car quoted us with a yearly subscription, £400 to start with I think and £100 thereafter (updates via usb stick) and now the obsolescence I think I might as well buy them as a separate unit where they are standalone not influenced by everything else.

Yeah, using Waze on the phone is beginning to look like the best option...

Unfortunately, radios tend to be more and more integrated with other systems, controlling fans, heating, etc. etc. so it becomes more difficult to replace them when they become obsolete.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on March 04, 2023, 04:02:08 pm
-> Miss a Car Payment and Ford’s Patent Could Shut Off Your A/C

-> https://news.yahoo.com/miss-car-payment-ford-patent-181119638.html

Quote :

"Ford Motor Co. has filed for a patent on technology that could remotely shut down your radio or air conditioning, lock you out of your vehicle, or prompt it to ceaselessly beep if you miss car payments. "

Yep, as expected, its coming.  :scared:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BrianHG on March 04, 2023, 04:28:41 pm
-> Miss a Car Payment and Ford’s Patent Could Shut Off Your A/C

-> https://news.yahoo.com/miss-car-payment-ford-patent-181119638.html

Quote :

"Ford Motor Co. has filed for a patent on technology that could remotely shut down your radio or air conditioning, lock you out of your vehicle, or prompt it to ceaselessly beep if you miss car payments. "

Yep, as expected, its coming.  :scared:
Don't buy ford.
Also, make sure you choose cars with mechanical starting keys and locks.
Cut / short out all antennas / receivers connected to all MCU devices in the car.
Use only a third party car radio.

If the car cannot function under these circumstances, then choose another car.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on March 04, 2023, 06:01:44 pm
Quote
Ford Motor Co. has filed for a patent on technology that could remotely shut down your radio or air conditioning, lock you out of your vehicle, or prompt it to ceaselessly beep if you miss car payments. Ford said it has no plans to use the technology, contained in just one of the many patents filed by the automaker.
I thought something like that would be for the sellers to use on a rental basis or hire purchase kind of arrangement.

Quote
Still, it emerges at a troubling time for car owners. Loan delinquencies have been steadily ticking back up from their pandemic lull. Cox Automotive data showed severely delinquent auto loans in January hitting their highest point since 2006. The use of technology to aid repossessions isn’t new, but the patent application is wide-ranging, even proposing the idea that an autonomous vehicle could drive itself to a “more convenient” location to be collected by a tow truck.

Where payments have defaulted.

Quote
According to the Ford patent application for repossession-linked technology, cruise control and automated windows could be disabled if a consumer doesn’t acknowledge a notice of an overdue car payment.

Quote
“It really seems like you’re opening up a can of worms that, as a manufacturer, you don’t really need to be doing,” said John Van Alst, a senior attorney with the National Consumer Law Center.

So buy the car outright and have them disable all cellular stuff, automatic updates and leave it alone in order not to open up a can of worms.


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on March 04, 2023, 08:45:10 pm
-> Miss a Car Payment and Ford’s Patent Could Shut Off Your A/C

-> https://news.yahoo.com/miss-car-payment-ford-patent-181119638.html

Quote :

"Ford Motor Co. has filed for a patent on technology that could remotely shut down your radio or air conditioning, lock you out of your vehicle, or prompt it to ceaselessly beep if you miss car payments. "

Yep, as expected, its coming.  :scared:

Of course it is.
You will own nothing.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on March 04, 2023, 09:21:20 pm
-> Miss a Car Payment and Ford’s Patent Could Shut Off Your A/C

-> https://news.yahoo.com/miss-car-payment-ford-patent-181119638.html

Quote :

"Ford Motor Co. has filed for a patent on technology that could remotely shut down your radio or air conditioning, lock you out of your vehicle, or prompt it to ceaselessly beep if you miss car payments. "

Yep, as expected, its coming.  :scared:
Don't buy ford.
Also, make sure you choose cars with mechanical starting keys and locks.
Cut / short out all antennas / receivers connected to all MCU devices in the car.
Use only a third party car radio.

If the car cannot function under these circumstances, then choose another car.

That only works while you have a choice. Once other manufacturers see that Ford get away with this they'll want to do it too, and then your only 'choice' will be shite cars no-one would otherwise want to buy or succumbing. It's  happening with subscription software - there are some pretty good applications out there I would pay quite a bit for, but they are subscription only so I don't use them. The suppliers don't miss my custom, and eventually Ford won't miss yours.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on March 04, 2023, 09:57:19 pm
Rent-seeking patterns are typical for competition-limited markets (or markets where there isn't sufficient competition).

For example, various Linux distributions have now agreed to develop a shared app store based on Flatpak.

No, I will never install standard free/open source software as Flatpaks or Snaps, but I can and will consider it for very old versions, and – especially – for commercial applications.

So, even though RedHat (Fedora) and Ubuntu are pushing towards closed gardens, their products being frameworks inside of which users operate in, with the intent of convincing proprietary partners to support them as "industry standards" and thus together garner a majority market share, the basic pressures of a healthy competitive market has even here found a technically better solution that allows fair competition among co-operating competitive entities.

True danger isn't that companies and organizations choose bad practices; it is anyone getting a high majority of the market, even if they avoid the worst monopoly practices, because it lets them skew the rules of the game in their own favour.  We need fair competition, at all scales.  That, and only that, can really thwart rent-seeking behaviour and other such, due to sheer competitive pressure.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on April 08, 2023, 04:09:26 pm
Support for Nest Secure ending

On April 8, 2024, Nest will no longer support Nest Secure. We have contacted impacted Nest Secure users to help with
this transition.

Recycling your Nest Secure

We can help you recycle your Nest Secure. Our third-party recycling partner will send a postage-paid shipping label to
your inbox.


https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/10191961 (https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/10191961)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on April 08, 2023, 04:18:16 pm
That was at least a $400 system with a $20 a month subscription.  What a waste, economically and environmentally.   :--

If you don't own the infrastructure you'll never own the product, absolute crap that.  I am sticking with Zigbee for home automation, I run the cloud, not anyone else.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on April 08, 2023, 05:46:33 pm
Support for Nest Secure ending

On April 8, 2024, Nest will no longer support Nest Secure. We have contacted impacted Nest Secure users to help with
this transition.

Recycling your Nest Secure

We can help you recycle your Nest Secure. Our third-party recycling partner will send a postage-paid shipping label to
your inbox.


https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/10191961 (https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/10191961)
The name "nest" was a warning sign. Most nests only last a few months, and are abandoned by their first winter.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on April 08, 2023, 05:50:15 pm
That was at least a $400 system with a $20 a month subscription.  What a waste, economically and environmentally.   :--

So another case of buying the item and paying to use or see it at their say so.

On the other hand:
https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/google-to-stop-supporting-nest-secure-dropcam-products-4316375 (https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/google-to-stop-supporting-nest-secure-dropcam-products-4316375)
Quote
By Ruben Circelli Freelancer April 8, 2023 1:19 am BST

Google has recently announced that it will stop supporting Nest Secure and Dropcam products by 2024.

According to a blog post from Google, the company plans to end support for its Nest Secure and Dropcam home-security products by April 8th, 2024. Google says that its partnership with ADT has prompted the company to shift away from Nest Secure products in favor of ADT systems, while Google argues that the age of Dropcam products has made them unwieldy to support in the modern-day.

However, Google isn’t just leaving Nest Secure and Dropcam users out to dry. Nest Secure users can either choose to receive a free ADT Self Setup System (which Google calls up to a $485 value) or a $200 credit in the Google Store. Affected users will receive an email with further instructions. For Dropcam users, Google is offering a free Nest Cam with a Nest Aware subscription and 50% off the Nest Cam for those without a subscription.

Nest Secure originally launched back in 2017 as a smart home security brand intended to compete with mainstays the likes of ADT, and considering Google’s more recent work with ADT itself, phasing out Nest Secure makes some sense. Dropcam launched over a decade ago and, according to Google, was “one of the first smart cameras on the market.” Now, Google notes that the early nature of Dropcam hardware makes it difficult to update them going forward, which also makes a good deal of sense even if it’s less than ideal for consumers.

Lastly, Google also announced that Works With Nest, its API system allowing for third-party integration, will be discontinued after September 29, 2023. Google promises a script editor in the coming months that will allow for “advanced home automation” and “offer new features and capabilities.”

All told, seeing products already in the hands of customers get phased out is never good news, but when it comes to Google, Nest Secure, and Dropcam, it’s easy to understand why this is happening. However, you’ll still have a year to use these home security products before they go offline.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on April 08, 2023, 05:53:52 pm
That was at least a $400 system with a $20 a month subscription.  What a waste, economically and environmentally.   :--

If you don't own the infrastructure you'll never own the product, absolute crap that.  I am sticking with Zigbee for home automation, I run the cloud, not anyone else.
The main reason so many of these things use the cloud is the lack of robust widely deployed ways for you on the move to communicate with things in your home. So the cloud services sits there as a server intermediary between a client in the device being monitored and a client in your phone/tablet/notebook. Zigbee doesn't provide a solution for that. Now if home routers came with a zigbee gateway and a public facing server, which could be contacted cheaply through a dyndns account, we'd be getting somewhere. I've seen a couple of routers that mentioned zigbee functionality, but when I looked in the manuals it was all pretty vague.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on April 08, 2023, 06:07:28 pm
That was at least a $400 system with a $20 a month subscription.  What a waste, economically and environmentally.   :--

If you don't own the infrastructure you'll never own the product, absolute crap that.  I am sticking with Zigbee for home automation, I run the cloud, not anyone else.
The main reason so many of these things use the cloud is the lack of robust widely deployed ways for you on the move to communicate with things in your home. So the cloud services sits there as a server intermediary between a client in the device being monitored and a client in your phone/tablet/notebook. Zigbee doesn't provide a solution for that. Now if home routers came with a zigbee gateway and a public facing server, which could be contacted cheaply through a dyndns account, we'd be getting somewhere. I've seen a couple of routers that mentioned zigbee functionality, but when I looked in the manuals it was all pretty vague.

I've got public internet access to my Zigbee system working just fine (obviously, it is a password-protected system, but I mean I can access it anywhere with internet.)  It wasn't necessarily trivial to set up because you need to sort out your own SSL certs, open a port on your router and of course your gateway needs to be running actual hardware capable of serving webpages (I'm using Home Assistant.)  This has allowed me to do all sorts of smart things like set up my heating to turn off when I leave the house and on a room by room basis, so it was well worth doing.

The reason Wi-Fi smart home devices are so prevalent is you don't need a gateway, and because the bulb/whatever opens the connection via your router, it doesn't need you to expose a port on your router or set up a home server.  The issue is that this method requires the server to be always available.  And it also means if the company providing the service (in the majority of cases this is Tuya, a large Chinese IoT firm) is required to continue supporting your devices.  It's not clear to me what happens when Tuya tries to stop supporting these devices, or how they collect revenue from customers, because the server infrastructure to support these devices is very not trivial.  Maybe their hope is that the sales of new devices subsidise existing ones, as every Tuya compatible manufacturer pays a royalty fee, but that sounds very Ponzi-esque to me.

There's also the big privacy headache.  Do I really want this company knowing when my lights are on?  When I'm in the house?  When the alarm is activated?  Do I trust them to keep the data safe and not to monetise it?  How secure is their platform?

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on April 08, 2023, 06:13:30 pm
The main reason so many of these things use the cloud is the lack of robust widely deployed ways for you on the move to communicate with things in your home. So the cloud services sits there as a server intermediary between a client in the device being monitored and a client in your phone/tablet/notebook. Zigbee doesn't provide a solution for that. Now if home routers came with a zigbee gateway and a public facing server, which could be contacted cheaply through a dyndns account, we'd be getting somewhere. I've seen a couple of routers that mentioned zigbee functionality, but when I looked in the manuals it was all pretty vague.

Just join the evil empire ... by which I mean Apple.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: mendip_discovery on April 08, 2023, 07:50:01 pm
Regards to the Ford comment. I personally feel that cars in the future will be for hire rather than owned. Who will buy and 10 year old electric car with a battery that has almost had it. But I have already heard that companies are looking to have optional extras move to a subscription model. You want the extra power or the heated seats etc then you will have to pay for it. Now what are the chances they will find a way to obsolete these extras making the cars next to impossible to sell.

I am no great lover of the cloud. I do like to have control over my stuff. I guess its cus I am a grumpy old git.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on April 08, 2023, 07:58:03 pm
That was at least a $400 system with a $20 a month subscription.  What a waste, economically and environmentally.   :--

If you don't own the infrastructure you'll never own the product, absolute crap that.  I am sticking with Zigbee for home automation, I run the cloud, not anyone else.
The main reason so many of these things use the cloud is the lack of robust widely deployed ways for you on the move to communicate with things in your home. So the cloud services sits there as a server intermediary between a client in the device being monitored and a client in your phone/tablet/notebook. Zigbee doesn't provide a solution for that. Now if home routers came with a zigbee gateway and a public facing server, which could be contacted cheaply through a dyndns account, we'd be getting somewhere. I've seen a couple of routers that mentioned zigbee functionality, but when I looked in the manuals it was all pretty vague.

I've got public internet access to my Zigbee system working just fine (obviously, it is a password-protected system, but I mean I can access it anywhere with internet.)  It wasn't necessarily trivial to set up because you need to sort out your own SSL certs, open a port on your router and of course your gateway needs to be running actual hardware capable of serving webpages (I'm using Home Assistant.)  This has allowed me to do all sorts of smart things like set up my heating to turn off when I leave the house and on a room by room basis, so it was well worth doing.

The reason Wi-Fi smart home devices are so prevalent is you don't need a gateway, and because the bulb/whatever opens the connection via your router, it doesn't need you to expose a port on your router or set up a home server.  The issue is that this method requires the server to be always available.  And it also means if the company providing the service (in the majority of cases this is Tuya, a large Chinese IoT firm) is required to continue supporting your devices.  It's not clear to me what happens when Tuya tries to stop supporting these devices, or how they collect revenue from customers, because the server infrastructure to support these devices is very not trivial.  Maybe their hope is that the sales of new devices subsidise existing ones, as every Tuya compatible manufacturer pays a royalty fee, but that sounds very Ponzi-esque to me.

There's also the big privacy headache.  Do I really want this company knowing when my lights are on?  When I'm in the house?  When the alarm is activated?  Do I trust them to keep the data safe and not to monetise it?  How secure is their platform?
Personal solutions like are fun, but they just won't scale. Most routers can be configured to allow the highly competent to do an interesting range of things. The only way the average person could do that is by paying a considerable amount to someone competent, and being as beholding to them as they are to the cloud people. We really need our routers to provide some measure of gateway functionality by default, or with very minor configuration the average person can easily handle.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on April 09, 2023, 12:31:55 pm
Personal solutions like are fun, but they just won't scale. Most routers can be configured to allow the highly competent to do an interesting range of things. The only way the average person could do that is by paying a considerable amount to someone competent, and being as beholding to them as they are to the cloud people. We really need our routers to provide some measure of gateway functionality by default, or with very minor configuration the average person can easily handle.

We need more high end ecosystems with strict quality control by a central power not dependent on advertising for income ... at the moment there is only Apple.

Apple Homekit certification keeps the vendors honest, because Apple can treat Homekit support as somewhat of a loss leader. Nickle and diming and datamining customers costs them far more in reputational damage than the income it generates.  When another brand tries to compete at the high end of home automation, such as Loxone, they have an uphill battle. They have to make all their money with those products, they can't rely on the inherent profit of ecosystem lockin driving other hardware sales and app store profits.

Apple's consumer electronics ecosystem is right up there with Standard Oil for non government created monopolies, other than that it has no equal.

As a consumer, there is little rational reason not to go with Apple. I refuse out of obstinacy.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on April 09, 2023, 03:21:38 pm
As a consumer, there is little rational reason not to go with Apple. I refuse out of obstinacy.
There are excellent rational reasons for not trusting any monopoly. However benign it might look at one point, it can turn evil at any moment and have you looking for an exit door which has been close and sealed.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 09, 2023, 08:48:10 pm
What we need is a protocol standard (like onvif, for instance). Then you can buy whatever cloud or router or server or ISP service you want and whatever it is will talk to whatever kit you've bought. Absolutely we don't need a gatekeeper, whether that's Google or Apple or Tuya.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Someone on April 09, 2023, 11:00:47 pm
Personal solutions like are fun, but they just won't scale. Most routers can be configured to allow the highly competent to do an interesting range of things. The only way the average person could do that is by paying a considerable amount to someone competent, and being as beholding to them as they are to the cloud people. We really need our routers to provide some measure of gateway functionality by default, or with very minor configuration the average person can easily handle.
Or over here in Australia where the largest internet service providers refuse to support 3rd party routers/modems and will only provide the network credentials baked inside their own locked down (and insecure) hardware....  free use of the internet relies on good actors all the way along the chain and while that has mostly held so far its not guaranteed or even a concern of most people.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on April 10, 2023, 02:26:48 am
Regards to the Ford comment. I personally feel that cars in the future will be for hire rather than owned. Who will buy and 10 year old electric car with a battery that has almost had it. But I have already heard that companies are looking to have optional extras move to a subscription model. You want the extra power or the heated seats etc then you will have to pay for it. Now what are the chances they will find a way to obsolete these extras making the cars next to impossible to sell.

I am no great lover of the cloud. I do like to have control over my stuff. I guess its cus I am a grumpy old git.

That does seem very likely to happen.  Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford. Nowadays, there is oceans of capital looking for a return....   and you, dear monthly subscriber, are the one providing that return!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Someone on April 10, 2023, 02:48:04 am
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Baloney!
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car)
Cheap cars have more capability/safety/features/functions than ever and still remain cheap.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on April 10, 2023, 10:17:10 am
What we need is a protocol standard (like onvif, for instance).

An industry standard and certification system won't be created the same as Homekit. Apple creates it partially to protect it's high end image, an image incompatible with nickle and diming and forced cloud. The industry creates it for short term gains. Because Apple can deliver a full ecosystem it can have a relatively soft touch towards monetization and cloud lock in, lesser players will be far more aggressive.

The only alternative to ecosystem driving somewhat customer friendly standardization is government.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Psi on April 10, 2023, 10:22:59 am
The worse things get with "software as a service" the more open source software will take off.
It's a self fixing problem with one exception, when the government mandates that you must use software X.

In fact, what may happen is that some open source software also goes to a "software as a service" model. However because you are only paying for support rather than access to the use the SW, and since it only needs to keep a few developers funded rather making software firms rich, the cost would be super low comparably and very attractive over traditional companies.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on April 10, 2023, 10:42:47 am
The worse things get with "software as a service" the more open source software will take off.
It's a self fixing problem with one exception, when the government mandates that you must use software X.

In fact, what may happen is that some open source software also goes to a "software as a service" model. However because you are only paying for support rather than access to the use the SW, and since it only needs to keep a few developers funded rather making software firms rich, the cost would be super low comparably and very attractive over traditional companies.

For example, like what Git did with the (commercial) alternatives.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on April 16, 2023, 12:54:57 pm
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Baloney!
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car)Cheap cars have more capability/safety/features/functions than ever and still remain cheap.


You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the facts!


According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median individual income in 1976 was $6,617 which is $32,572 in 2023 dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Consumers paid an average price of $5,450 ($29,586 in 2023 dollars) for a new car in 1976, according to National Automobile Dealers Association numbers.

So, in 1976 Joe Average could buy  $32,572 / $29,586  =   1.1 average new cars per year for his Joe Average wage.

In the year 2022, the median individual income was $46,001 and the average price of a new car at the end of 2022 was $49,388!   

So in 2022, Joe Average can now only afford 0.93 new average cars per year on his Joe Average salary.

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!



Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TimFox on April 16, 2023, 03:11:15 pm
Somewhat counteracting that trend is the longer lifetime for autos.
A quick search found that the average age of cars on the road in the US went from 11.0 years in 2011 to 13.1 years in 2022, or 19% in only 11 years.
It would be interesting to go further back to your 1976 start point for such data.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: CatalinaWOW on April 16, 2023, 03:52:10 pm
The cars of that era would have had power steering, power brakes, probably A/C and auto transmission and a radio, but no antilock brakes, computerized emission controls, GPS, hands free phone connection, back up camera .....

But on the other hand fuel economy has improved enough to offset much of the increase in cost.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on April 16, 2023, 04:10:41 pm
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Baloney!
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car)Cheap cars have more capability/safety/features/functions than ever and still remain cheap.


You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the facts!


According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median individual income in 1976 was $6,617 which is $32,572 in 2023 dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Consumers paid an average price of $5,450 ($29,586 in 2023 dollars) for a new car in 1976, according to National Automobile Dealers Association numbers.

So, in 1976 Joe Average could buy  $32,572 / $29,586  =   1.1 average new cars per year for his Joe Average wage.

In the year 2022, the median individual income was $46,001 and the average price of a new car at the end of 2022 was $49,388!   

So in 2022, Joe Average can now only afford 0.93 new average cars per year on his Joe Average salary.

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!
Same has happened in the NL and even worse. 10 years ago you could buy a car starting at 9k euro. Nowadays the cheapest car sets you back around 18k. Corrected for inflation the increase is 30%. The claim is that adding required safety features is driving the costs up.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on April 16, 2023, 04:59:42 pm
Same has happened in the NL and even worse. 10 years ago you could buy a car starting at 9k euro. Nowadays the cheapest car sets you back around 18k. Corrected for inflation the increase is 30%. The claim is that adding required safety features is driving the costs up.

Is that pollution tax?  In Norway, a VW Golf diesel isn't much cheaper than a Model 3 for similar reasons (389,000 NOK vs 499,000 NOK)  whereas in the UK the difference is much bigger, about 100% more expensive to get the Tesla.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on April 16, 2023, 05:35:21 pm
Same has happened in the NL and even worse. 10 years ago you could buy a car starting at 9k euro. Nowadays the cheapest car sets you back around 18k. Corrected for inflation the increase is 30%. The claim is that adding required safety features is driving the costs up.

Is that pollution tax?  In Norway, a VW Golf diesel isn't much cheaper than a Model 3 for similar reasons (389,000 NOK vs 499,000 NOK)  whereas in the UK the difference is much bigger, about 100% more expensive to get the Tesla.
No. Just the base car price going up.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Someone on April 16, 2023, 11:12:16 pm
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Baloney!
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car) Cheap cars have more capability/safety/features/functions than ever and still remain cheap.
You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the facts!


According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median individual income in 1976 was $6,617 which is $32,572 in 2023 dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Consumers paid an average price of $5,450 ($29,586 in 2023 dollars) for a new car in 1976, according to National Automobile Dealers Association numbers.

So, in 1976 Joe Average could buy  $32,572 / $29,586  =   1.1 average new cars per year for his Joe Average wage.

In the year 2022, the median individual income was $46,001 and the average price of a new car at the end of 2022 was $49,388!   

So in 2022, Joe Average can now only afford 0.93 new average cars per year on his Joe Average salary.

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!
Stupid people choose to spend more of their money on more expensive cars? That is choice, cars in general have not become more expensive but people are choosing more expensive cars. And getting worked up over some 10-20% shift? overreaction:
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Even with your figures, that doesn't ring true.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Someone on April 16, 2023, 11:28:53 pm
Same has happened in the NL and even worse. 10 years ago you could buy a car starting at 9k euro. Nowadays the cheapest car sets you back around 18k. Corrected for inflation the increase is 30%. The claim is that adding required safety features is driving the costs up.

Is that pollution tax?  In Norway, a VW Golf diesel isn't much cheaper than a Model 3 for similar reasons (389,000 NOK vs 499,000 NOK)  whereas in the UK the difference is much bigger, about 100% more expensive to get the Tesla.
No. Just the base car price going up.
Well your unreferenced figures (as usual) are cherry picked and/or misleading:
https://russianvagabond.com/cheapest-car-in-the-netherlands-guide/
There are cheap vehicles with manufacturer recommended pricing around and under 10k euro, but like the rest of the world with the shortage of automotive deliveries street pricing is exaggerated at the moment.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Kim Christensen on April 16, 2023, 11:53:29 pm
That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!

Perhaps cause and effect are reversed here: Access to easy credit is what has driven up the cost of cars.
If people can't afford to pay cash, manufacturers would build cheaper cars if credit wasn't as cheap and easy.
ie: In the 70's air conditioning was a luxury option. Now it's almost standard.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on April 17, 2023, 01:12:45 am
[...]
Stupid people choose to spend more of their money on more expensive cars? That is choice, cars in general have not become more expensive but people are choosing more expensive cars. And getting worked up over some 10-20% shift? overreaction:
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Even with your figures, that doesn't ring true.

It's not just stupid people choosing to spend more, it is smart people being forced to spend more, because the lower price cars are simply not available at the car dealerships...  they now only sell the gold plated luxury spec versions of every model, the cheap ones are difficult to find.

Consider also that even if cars have "only" gone up 20% relative to median wages, if you look at what has happened to the "real terms" price of housing, food, energy, healthcare, education, ....  etc. -  all of these have also gone up significantly.

The net effect is to send people into deep debt and squeezing their disposable income.   If you are old enough to remember how Europeans and Americans lived in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s you will know instinctively that this is all true.   I personally know people that bought houses in the UK for less than GBP 1,000 back then, lol.  I'm not sure what happened!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on April 20, 2023, 07:58:50 pm
The net effect is to send people into deep debt and squeezing their disposable income.   If you are old enough to remember how Europeans and Americans lived in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s you will know instinctively that this is all true.   I personally know people that bought houses in the UK for less than GBP 1,000 back then, lol.  I'm not sure what happened!

A lot of things happened, not the least of which is the fact that there are far more people on the planet today, all vying for a share of the same resources. Then environmental and safety regulations pushed production of many things to regions where those regulations don't exist, and/or increased the cost of the items in order to meet the new requirements. People's expectations have increased too, back in the 60s American houses were much smaller than they are today, my parents both grew up with 3-4 siblings in small single floor post-war suburban houses. It wasn't until sometime in the 60s that they had a TV at all and then there was only one of them. The family had one car that was shared, they had a lot fewer toys and luxuries. Cars were a lot simpler back then too, not just in terms of mandated features but creature comforts. Stuff like power windows, power locks, air conditioning, power steering, power mirrors, power adjusted seats, heated seats, etc were either uncommon or just plain didn't exist. Now it's hard to even find a car without most of those things and I suspect few people would actually buy one if it was offered. People like myself that enjoy a simple manual-everything car are few and far between and even I find power windows and mirrors convenient and air conditioning makes driving on hot days a lot less miserable.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on April 20, 2023, 08:20:14 pm
That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!

Perhaps cause and effect are reversed here: Access to easy credit is what has driven up the cost of cars.
If people can't afford to pay cash, manufacturers would build cheaper cars if credit wasn't as cheap and easy.
ie: In the 70's air conditioning was a luxury option. Now it's almost standard.

That's for sure.
Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on April 21, 2023, 10:29:19 am
Another Microsoft 365 outage yesterday: Microsoft 365 outage blocks access to web apps and services (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-365-outage-blocks-access-to-web-apps-and-services/ (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-365-outage-blocks-access-to-web-apps-and-services/))
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on April 21, 2023, 10:53:44 am
Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.
The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific.  :--
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BravoV on April 21, 2023, 12:11:37 pm
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific.  :--

Remember, whenever you heard ... "You will OWN NOTHING, and you will be HAPPY" ... especially from the weird group of "rich" people in Switzerland (you're smart enough to know who) ... then be scared, be really-really scared and the 1st thing to do is run away.  :scared:

*"rich" ... people with really old money, probably looted since WW2, hell, even the former Credit Suisse bank still holds those accounts until these days (check latest US news, they (US senate) just discovered those "old money").  >:D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 21, 2023, 03:50:51 pm
Quote
people with really old money, probably looted since WW2

WW2 era money is 'new' money to those for whom it might be relevant.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: themadhippy on April 21, 2023, 04:06:27 pm
Quote
It really is only a step forward from slavery
#
yea but slavery costs the slave owner  money in the upkeep of the slaves,food accommodation, transportation etc.Better to set  us  free and let us  get in debt,  to there credit providing mates ,paying for our accommodation food and getting to and from the work site,but hey were free!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on April 21, 2023, 04:07:12 pm
Same has happened in the NL and even worse. 10 years ago you could buy a car starting at 9k euro. Nowadays the cheapest car sets you back around 18k. Corrected for inflation the increase is 30%. The claim is that adding required safety features is driving the costs up.

Is that pollution tax?  In Norway, a VW Golf diesel isn't much cheaper than a Model 3 for similar reasons (389,000 NOK vs 499,000 NOK)  whereas in the UK the difference is much bigger, about 100% more expensive to get the Tesla.
No. Just the base car price going up.
Well your unreferenced figures (as usual) are cherry picked and/or misleading:
https://russianvagabond.com/cheapest-car-in-the-netherlands-guide/
There are cheap vehicles with manufacturer recommended pricing around and under 10k euro, but like the rest of the world with the shortage of automotive deliveries street pricing is exaggerated at the moment.
That ChatGPT generated websit forgot to include sales taxes. The cheapest car they list cost 16k euro to buy. So start eating your hat. But take your foot out of your mouth first. Did you really think I didn't check a list with cheapest cars?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 21, 2023, 07:12:13 pm
Quote
That ChatGPT generated website...

Indeed. Has such gems as "Used cars are more expensive than new ones as they have higher maintenance costs." And then posts table showing the exact opposite.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on April 21, 2023, 08:26:56 pm
Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.
The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific.  :--

Pretty much so.

But as I said, it is already starting to collapse.
The problem is that its collapse will harm a lot of people and I'm afraid the aftermath is going to be even more enslaving for the majority of us, rather than liberating.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on April 21, 2023, 10:08:06 pm
Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.
The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific.  :--
Do you have a better alternative that provides an amount of money that matches the size of the economy and allows to have enough control to keep inflation at around 2%?

My working theory is that money is nothing more than a representation of an amount of work. With more people around the world working to create better lives for themselves, I don't see how this system can fail in the next 500 years. And central banks do have ways to make the amount of money in circulation to become less or more.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: NiHaoMike on April 21, 2023, 11:42:28 pm
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ghosttoken-gcp-flaw-let-attackers-backdoor-google-accounts/ (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ghosttoken-gcp-flaw-let-attackers-backdoor-google-accounts/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on April 22, 2023, 01:41:05 pm
Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.
The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific.  :--
Do you have a better alternative that provides an amount of money that matches the size of the economy and allows to have enough control to keep inflation at around 2%?

My working theory is that money is nothing more than a representation of an amount of work.
We need competition, market, and currency as an exchange medium.  What we do not need is to tie the currency to debt, like it is now.  To change this, we would first have to assassinate a few thousand people (all major owners and executives of central banks).  Looking at the past, tying the currency to major resources –– not just gold or raw materials (which used to be the bottleneck for production), but also to energy and human work –– seems like a much more stable and equitable option.

In the last fifty years or so, trying to move from debt-based fiat currency to something else, has sparked quite a few wars, though.

With more people around the world working to create better lives for themselves, I don't see how this system can fail in the next 500 years.
It is competition and market that is doing that, not currency tied to debt.  I'm pretty sure we can agree that market competition is pretty much essential.

And central banks do have ways to make the amount of money in circulation to become less or more.
No.  They cannot reduce the amount of money in circulation at all.  They can only make more money out of nothing, and create more debt by lending money to governments.  Governments can reduce the amount of money in circulation in the future by borrowing less, but central banks oppose that because it means they profit less from the interest.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on April 22, 2023, 03:12:47 pm
Central banks and bankers make peanuts. They just take some skim, whenever they make a profit most of it goes back to government.

The real money is in the insider knowledge of where the interest rate targets are going to move.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on April 22, 2023, 04:21:13 pm
The real money is in the insider knowledge of where the interest rate targets are going to move.
In market manipulation, yes.  If your currency is tied to anything other than debt or (other) promises, manipulation becomes much, much harder.

Exactly who makes the most of the profits off such manipulation, I do not know.  (I do not want to know; that sort of knowledge just makes one bitter.)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: JPortici on April 22, 2023, 04:42:47 pm
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Baloney!
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car) Cheap cars have more capability/safety/features/functions than ever and still remain cheap.
You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the facts!


According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median individual income in 1976 was $6,617 which is $32,572 in 2023 dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Consumers paid an average price of $5,450 ($29,586 in 2023 dollars) for a new car in 1976, according to National Automobile Dealers Association numbers.

So, in 1976 Joe Average could buy  $32,572 / $29,586  =   1.1 average new cars per year for his Joe Average wage.

In the year 2022, the median individual income was $46,001 and the average price of a new car at the end of 2022 was $49,388!   

So in 2022, Joe Average can now only afford 0.93 new average cars per year on his Joe Average salary.

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!
Stupid people choose to spend more of their money on more expensive cars? That is choice, cars in general have not become more expensive but people are choosing more expensive cars. And getting worked up over some 10-20% shift? overreaction:
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Even with your figures, that doesn't ring true.

What? fiat panda has gone from about 9000 euros in 2018 to more than 13000 today. It's the same, basic, simple, cheap car, but they had to add a whole bunch of electronics (ADAS) in order to comply with regulations. Other more powerful cars are becoming more expensive as well because in order to meet emission standards the passive and active elements are an added cost
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on April 22, 2023, 05:37:29 pm
What? fiat panda has gone from about 9000 euros in 2018 to more than 13000 today. It's the same, basic, simple, cheap car, but they had to add a whole bunch of electronics (ADAS) in order to comply with regulations. Other more powerful cars are becoming more expensive as well because in order to meet emission standards the passive and active elements are an added cost
ADAS should only add something like 1000 Euros, since on most small cars it was previously only something like 1000-1500 as an option. So, a 4000 Euro rise is a bit much. Some other small cars have just abandoned being inexpensive completely. A Honda Jazz is way more expensive than in 2018. It now has ADAS, a hybrid drive train and other sophistication. However, a car that started at about 13000 pounds in 2018 now starts at 25900 pounds.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: nctnico on April 22, 2023, 06:41:33 pm
And central banks do have ways to make the amount of money in circulation to become less or more.
No.  They cannot reduce the amount of money in circulation at all. 
They can. By increasing the interest rates, they can absorb money from the market.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on April 22, 2023, 06:44:33 pm
No.  They cannot reduce the amount of money in circulation at all.  They can only make more money out of nothing, and create more debt by lending money to governments.  Governments can reduce the amount of money in circulation in the future by borrowing less, but central banks oppose that because it means they profit less from the interest.
Most money is created by the act of lending. This is basic to fractional reserve banking. If expiring loans are not replaced by new ones, the money in circulation shrinks.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on April 22, 2023, 07:03:06 pm
But while you can have real GDP drop during inflation, it rarely increases during deflation.

Outside of Japan any way, but even then the deflationists wanted them to deflate harder. Never listen to Austrian economists, Austrians start world wars. Better to have a lost decade than one year of their creative destruction.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on April 28, 2023, 02:04:45 pm
Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.
The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific.  :--

What really gets me is how so many voluntarily jump into the jaws of debt, overpaying for their house, car, education, healthcare, vacations, etc etc etc. -- instead of attempting to at least be partly "free" by keeping some of their income back for themselves.

Maybe the psychological trap is that it can make you feel really important when you get a big credit line at the bank, or at the car dealership, or whatever?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on April 28, 2023, 02:07:50 pm
Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.
The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific.  :--
Do you have a better alternative that provides an amount of money that matches the size of the economy and allows to have enough control to keep inflation at around 2%?

My working theory is that money is nothing more than a representation of an amount of work. With more people around the world working to create better lives for themselves, I don't see how this system can fail in the next 500 years. And central banks do have ways to make the amount of money in circulation to become less or more.

Money is also a store of value, and that is the side of its nature that creates the big wealth gaps.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on April 28, 2023, 02:10:08 pm
[...] They cannot reduce the amount of money in circulation at all.  They can only make more money out of nothing, and create more debt by lending money to governments.  Governments can reduce the amount of money in circulation in the future by borrowing less, but central banks oppose that because it means they profit less from the interest.

They can change the amount in circulation, e.g. quantitative easing/tightening.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 28, 2023, 06:14:57 pm
New one is Steam: https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/4784-4F2B-1321-800A

I guess most will just shrug and say "Windows 7..." but it's a bit off for a marketplace (think Amazon or Ebay) to enforce a hardware/OS upgrade just to keep access to already paid for products. The games themselves would work fine, and with the existing Steam client, but Steam are saying that because they use Googles browser, and that won't support W7 (shades of Kicad and Python) they can't possible just let it go and if it works it works, otherwise it doesn't. No, they have to actively stop you accessing your games.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on April 28, 2023, 07:38:14 pm
The end of support for some platforms (such as Win 7) has definitely been some kind of domino effect.

Sure some software products end the support just to make things easier for them (it's one platform less on which to test), but many just end the support because they are depending on other software pieces that themselves ended the support, so they don't have a choice. It's a cascade. It's happening with anything using Chromium, but has also happened with anything using Python. And so on.

While on some level one could say that it's a normal process, software has to be updated, security concerns, blah blah blah... it poses an issue that very few seem to be concerned about, even less so trying to address: planned obsolescence. While most people seem infuriated at the thought of planned obsolescence for hardware, when it comes to software, suddenly there's no one around. But software is everywhere these days and an increasing number of products can't work without it.

In other words, software is creating an endless planned obsolescence almost by nature, and we all have to be fine with it, as there is no solution to that. Apparently.

TLDR: it's really bad when a product becomes obsolete because it contains some hardware parts that can fail and have no replacement, but it's all fine if the included software makes it obsolete. Apparently.
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: alm on April 28, 2023, 08:28:23 pm
The end of support for some platforms (such as Win 7) has definitely been some kind of domino effect.
Domino effect in more applications stopping support for Windows 7, and hence declining market share of Windows 7, sure. But what is the effect of this other than forcing a free Windows 7 to 10 upgrade? Is there that much hardware out there that can run Windows 7 but not Windows 10? Is there much hardware with drivers for Windows 7 but not Windows 10? I thought the driver models were very similar, unlike for example Windows XP to Vista.

While on some level one could say that it's a normal process, software has to be updated, security concerns, blah blah blah... it poses an issue that very few seem to be concerned about, even less so trying to address: planned obsolescence. While most people seem infuriated at the thought of planned obsolescence for hardware, when it comes to software, suddenly there's no one around. But software is everywhere these days and an increasing number of products can't work without it.
What software are you talking about that's becoming obsolete? Old versions of Chrome, Python, Kicad etc will keep working on your old OS. I don't see encouraging an OS update once the manufacturer stops security updates as a bad thing.

TLDR: it's really bad when a product becomes obsolete because it contains some hardware parts that can fail and have no replacement, but it's all fine if the included software makes it obsolete. Apparently.
 :popcorn:
What product are you talking here? Windows? I don't see one set of bits being replaced by another set of bits as being bad for the environment, unless say replacing a washing machine by a new washing machine. If you're talking about embedded software platforms like a scope with Windows, well, the scope will keep functioning fine. Why would you run Chrome or Kicad on a scope?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 28, 2023, 08:29:20 pm
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it poses an issue that very few seem to be concerned about, even less so trying to address: planned obsolescence

Yes. And those saying, well, we have to move with the times, neglect to consider that their current OS or whatever is going to go the same way in a couple of years. Just as you get really intimate and know something, it's obsolete and you have to start all over again.

Doesn't matter if the stuff still works (software doesn't wear out, after all), you will be forced to not use one way or another.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 28, 2023, 08:34:57 pm
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what is the effect of this other than forcing a free Windows 7 to 10 upgrade

That's the main issue. Windows 10 is shit. If I didn't mind it I would have moved to it way before now. But it's an ongoing advertorial for Microsoft which changes things out of your control, bluescreens because Microsoft don't have a QA department now and get the users to test stuff. And the very same thing has happened to W10 in that W11 is not the OS 'of choice'. That will, of course, remain just until they can dispose of W10 and then we'll be dragged onto W12.

My MythTV setup is stupidly old. Still works just great; records what I want, gets program listings online, plays the stuff as it should. Why would I want to update it? But according to the likes of Microsoft and Google, I can't be allowed to use it because no-one supports it any more, despite it working perfectly well. I don't want support; I want them to keep their broken updates well away from it.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: alm on April 28, 2023, 08:56:30 pm
Yes. And those saying, well, we have to move with the times, neglect to consider that their current OS or whatever is going to go the same way in a couple of years. Just as you get really intimate and know something, it's obsolete and you have to start all over again.
I'd argue this is becoming less of a problem since operating systems like Windows 10/11 and some Linux distributions are moving towards a rolling release model of a continuous stream of incremental updates, so there is no big change of having to start over again. I update my Ubuntu installation roughly every six months, and the update rarely has any big impact on my work and I can't remember the last time it broke any application software.

That's the main issue. Windows 10 is shit. If I didn't mind it I would have moved to it way before now. But it's an ongoing advertorial for Microsoft which changes things out of your control, bluescreens because Microsoft don't have a QA department now and get the users to test stuff. And the very same thing has happened to W10 in that W11 is not the OS 'of choice'. That will, of course, remain just until they can dispose of W10 and then we'll be dragged onto W12.

My MythTV setup is stupidly old. Still works just great; records what I want, gets program listings online, plays the stuff as it should. Why would I want to update it? But according to the likes of Microsoft and Google, I can't be allowed to use it because no-one supports it any more, despite it working perfectly well. I don't want support; I want them to keep their broken updates well away from it.

Of course you may not like the way a particular OS is changing into, but then you'll have to pick your poison and switch. I don't think that sticking to an obsolete desktop OS is a very viable solution. I remember people saying that Windows 7 was bad, so they stuck to Windows XP. Before that Windows XP was bad, and they'd stick to Windows 2000. Before that Windows '95 was bad, and they stuck to DOS. How many are still using DOS/Windows 2000/Windows XP? A very dedicated 'embedded' application like MythTV is a different matter, of course, especially if not connected to the network.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 28, 2023, 09:07:14 pm
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a rolling release model of a continuous stream of incremental updates

That's a major part of the problem. The bloody thing changes under your feet on their whim. Turn it on one day and there's some new 'feature' getting in the way, or something you're used to doesn't work like that now.

My setup is quite heavily customised; it is very personal to me. Stuff on disk is where it makes sense to me, not Microsoft. The desktop looks the way it does because that's how I prefer it, not because Microsoft think I'd appreciate some new nicknack or in-your-face application. The start menu (remember that?) is organised so I can use it to find and start stuff quickly and easily. Etc.

A rolling update would make a mockery of that, and as a result I would just give up customising it. I would no longer care about the shitty thing because it wouldn't be 'mine' and I would hate to have to use it.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 28, 2023, 09:08:53 pm
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I don't think that sticking to an obsolete desktop OS is a very viable solution

Why not? Because I wouldn't get the latest gewgaws?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: rdl on April 28, 2023, 09:42:29 pm
The problem I have is just that games I paid for may become unusable. Unless Steam provides some kind of mini-app (no browser required) or unlocks the games completely, I think some kind of legal action will happen. I also think I will be looking to get pirated versions of games I own only on Steam so I can still play them. Surprisingly, many games don't require Steam just to play, even though they may have been purchased through Steam. Even Valve's Half-Life 2 will run without Steam sniffing your butt in the background.

In recent years I've moved over to GOG for games, haven't really spent much money on Steam. As a matter of fact, I have spent money to buy games on GOG that I already own on Steam just to be free of that obnoxious Steaming pile of crap.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 28, 2023, 10:34:18 pm
I liked Steam because of the offline storage. GoG can do that too,  but somehow I always felt they might disappear, and after downloading some huge stuff I figured I didn't have enough storage to manage that. Steam also update the games much easier.

Which is not to mention that some games I got on GoG are now Steam-only. Train Valley, for instance, was GOG but the German DLC needed Steam. TV2 is also Steam, but horrible so I don't care about that one :)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: rdl on April 28, 2023, 11:00:00 pm
I guess by "offline storage" you mean how you can just install directly from the service? Like GOG Galaxy? Personally I don't really use that much. And Steam forces updates, something you don't always want. They're like Microsoft with that "We know better than you what you need" attitude.

Games are big these days and need lots of disk space, and as you say these services may disappear someday. The games I really care about I download the offline installers from GOG, though I can understand not everybody has space for that.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 28, 2023, 11:24:58 pm
Well, not Galaxy per se because you can drop into the webby and download them like that. Never installed Galaxy, don't see a need to.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: NiHaoMike on April 29, 2023, 02:38:34 am
The games I really care about I download the offline installers from GOG, though I can understand not everybody has space for that.
With storage becoming cheaper every day, that's becoming less and less of an issue.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 29, 2023, 07:04:33 am
Kind of. Over the years I've found the only reliable backup is a live one. Shove stuff on a CD or disk or paper or whatever and it will get lost in a drawer, down the back of the sofa, overwritten, eaten by mice, or just not work when you come to look at it 10 years later. Having it exist in a live system, OTOH, means you know where it is and that it is still 'alive' (and backed up to the usual backup media).

Just had this, as it happens. Uncovered a box of Syquest Ezidrve cartridges used for backup. Don't have a drive any more, and if I did I don't have SCSI any more. They might as well be cheese on toast (except they hurt your teeth more).

So... storage is cheap, but expanding your backups to maintain that storage is a pain in the arse and expensive.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on April 29, 2023, 07:51:23 am
Trusting an online backup can cause havoc too. There already have been a few incidents with cloud backup/storage services loosing data, e.g. t-online/Microsoft SAN fail. Managing backup is not hard, just follow a few reasonable recommendations:
- make multiple backups (in case one media fails )
- if data is really important keep a backup somewhere else (cloud, relative)
- keep bakups of different timelines (can be combined: use two USB disks and swap them every few weeks)
- check backups (also train to restore them)
- after x years migrate old backups to current disks/tapes/whatever
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 29, 2023, 08:02:31 am
I think you misunderstand (or I neglected to explain properly). By 'live' I mean living on a working system that's in use. I said it is "(and backed up to the usual backup media)", so the live system is backed up to whatever is the norm, which should be multiple backups, offline if you prefer (and by online/offline I am not referring to a cloud). Thus the stuff that would be a risk of getting lost/eaten/decayed/etc must continue to exist as much as the 'important' current stuff does.

And, hence, why the storage cost is not a simple 1:1 of however big the data is, but 1:n where n is the number of storage devices used for backup (and original).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: alm on April 30, 2023, 12:05:34 pm
Why not? Because I wouldn't get the latest gewgaws?
Other than the obvious lack of security updates for both the OS and applications like Chrome? Because unlike some embedded appliances, a desktop system does not exist in a vacuum and most users use external services (e.g. Steam), websites like YouTube that continuously upgrade the codecs they use for newer browser versions, or exchange files with other users (e.g. Kicad). This will make life on an OS with decreasing application support harder and harder, eventually forcing an upgrade. This upgrade to Windows 13 or whatever will be more painful than incremental, small upgrades.

If you don't like Windows 10, then I don't think you're going to like Windows 12 or 13 either. So you'll either have to swallow those objections against newer Windows versions, or switch to another OS like MacOS, one of the various Linux flavours or something else like FreeBSD. And if you'll be forced to transition to another (version) of the OS within a couple of years anyhow, then I think it's better to bite the bullet now rather than postpone it and make your life difficult in the mean time.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 30, 2023, 12:32:07 pm
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I think it's better to bite the bullet now rather than postpone it and make your life difficult in the mean time

That's entirely your choice. I should be entitled to mine.

Quote
If you don't like Windows 10, then I don't think you're going to like Windows 12 or 13 either

Quite likely, but Microsoft have done about faces before (W98, Vista, 8, WfW, etc). Maybe they'll have changed for the better in a couple more years. And don't forget that W10 was supposed to be the last ever version of Windows, but we now have 11 and more on the way.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: alm on April 30, 2023, 03:08:48 pm
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I think it's better to bite the bullet now rather than postpone it and make your life difficult in the mean time

That's entirely your choice. I should be entitled to mine.
You asked why I don't think that sticking to an obsolete desktop OS is a very viable solution. If this is your answer to me explaining my opinion, then good luck with your crusade against the windmills!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on April 30, 2023, 05:58:31 pm
Actually, I asked why I shouldn't be sticking with it, not you.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on May 01, 2023, 03:24:33 pm
Amazon discontinues Halo: https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-halo-discontinued (https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-halo-discontinued)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on May 02, 2023, 03:46:36 pm
The end of support for some platforms (such as Win 7) has definitely been some kind of domino effect.

Sure some software products end the support just to make things easier for them (it's one platform less on which to test), but many just end the support because they are depending on other software pieces that themselves ended the support, so they don't have a choice. It's a cascade. It's happening with anything using Chromium, but has also happened with anything using Python. And so on.

While on some level one could say that it's a normal process, software has to be updated, security concerns, blah blah blah... it poses an issue that very few seem to be concerned about, even less so trying to address: planned obsolescence. While most people seem infuriated at the thought of planned obsolescence for hardware, when it comes to software, suddenly there's no one around. But software is everywhere these days and an increasing number of products can't work without it.

In other words, software is creating an endless planned obsolescence almost by nature, and we all have to be fine with it, as there is no solution to that. Apparently.

TLDR: it's really bad when a product becomes obsolete because it contains some hardware parts that can fail and have no replacement, but it's all fine if the included software makes it obsolete. Apparently.
 :popcorn:


This is happening in the auto industry...   e.g. the map software is arbitrarily no longer supported in my 12 year old car, even though the same model was made for several more years, based on the argument that "it is supported for 10 years, that's it"

Also, embedded controllers in cars are increasingly "protected" so they are more difficult to recycle into other cars...   sometimes requiring special equipment that only dealers have access to, to unlock them.

There is definitely a growing dark shadow being cast by "fake obsolescence" implemented via software...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on May 02, 2023, 03:52:51 pm
[...] I don't think that sticking to an obsolete desktop OS is a very viable solution. [...]

Counterexample 1:
Michael Bloomberg became a billionaire by sticking with Fortran for the Bloomberg Terminal, when everyone was saying it was obsolete.  It turned out that there were tons of programmers available that had the skills in Fortran, and Bloomberg made us of it...

Counterexample 2:
Owning an older car, paid off, simpler tech, is manyfold times cheaper than owning a new car,  if getting from A to B is what matters to you.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on June 06, 2023, 10:51:00 am
Post mortem of Azure DevOps Outage in South Brazil: https://status.dev.azure.com/_event/392143683/post-mortem

Quote
Hidden within this pull request was a typo bug in the snapshot deletion job which swapped out a call to delete the Azure SQL Database to one that deletes the Azure SQL Server that hosts the database.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on June 09, 2023, 02:01:51 pm
oops!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on June 09, 2023, 07:50:25 pm
Post mortem of Azure DevOps Outage in South Brazil: https://status.dev.azure.com/_event/392143683/post-mortem

Quote
Hidden within this pull request was a typo bug in the snapshot deletion job which swapped out a call to delete the Azure SQL Database to one that deletes the Azure SQL Server that hosts the database.

Fun stuff!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on June 12, 2023, 04:12:17 pm
So driver had headphones on whilst delivering a package but reports customer who wern't in at the time with racism and Amazon suspend his "SMART" home devices until investigation finished.

https://odysee.com/@rossmanngroup:a/amazon-accuses-customer-of-racism-shuts:2

Louse Rossman:
7:55 "You don't need a home that connects to other people's servers."

How right he is.

If something like that connects to a server, I want that server to be mine, in my house under my control with no interference from what happens outside or from the manufacturer.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on June 12, 2023, 05:19:23 pm
That does mean if you want home automation, you're stuck with hobbyism (Home Assistant, Red Node, etc) or expensive systems (Loxone&co).

Apple keeps the data local, but the automation is tied to your Apple ID.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on June 16, 2023, 10:41:36 pm
That does mean if you want home automation, you're stuck with hobbyism (Home Assistant, Red Node, etc) or expensive systems (Loxone&co).

Apple keeps the data local, but the automation is tied to your Apple ID.

I've been using Home Assistant for a few years now and at this point it is pretty fantastic, I have a bunch of different brands of hardware, including Hue and noname smart bulbs, Xaiomi sensors, Sonoff sensors, a mix of zigbee, wifi and 433MHz RF stuff, even a Hughes zigbee doorbell sensor I got really cheaply because their line of home automation stuff was discontinued. It all works seemlessly together just the way home automation stuff should.

It was a proper pain getting started though, about 50% of the reason being at the time it was still somewhat primitive and way too much stuff had to be set up by editing yaml files rather than the UI, and the other 50% being that the documentation was/is garbage and the community is absolutely worthless and borderline hostile. It seemed like every time I had a question there were either dozens of other people asking the same thing with no answer, or someone on the team wanted to argue with me over why I wanted to do what I was trying to do rather than trying to help me. Their attitude seems to be "read the documentation you idiot" (which often is very vague, confusing or incomplete), or "if you don't like the way it works then buy Apple/Hue/whatever you idiot". Ultimately I completely gave up on the community and found I could learn far more from random youtube home automation geeks who would just show how to do something instead of arguing or acting like someone is a moron for not understanding the vague documentation.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on June 16, 2023, 10:52:09 pm
[...] I don't think that sticking to an obsolete desktop OS is a very viable solution. [...]

Counterexample 1:
Michael Bloomberg became a billionaire by sticking with Fortran for the Bloomberg Terminal, when everyone was saying it was obsolete.  It turned out that there were tons of programmers available that had the skills in Fortran, and Bloomberg made us of it...

Counterexample 2:
Owning an older car, paid off, simpler tech, is manyfold times cheaper than owning a new car,  if getting from A to B is what matters to you.

My daily driver is a 33 year old car, it's fantastic, I love it, it's not that I couldn't afford something newer, it's that nobody is making anything anymore that I would want and this old Volvo turbo wagon fits my needs like a glove.

I'm in the process of restoring a 47 year old Amana Radarange microwave oven to replace my circa 2005 GE that is getting a bit tired. 90 pounds of stainless steel, cast aluminum and acres of gleaming chrome is a functional work of art. With an original price of $495 being equivalent to around $3,000 today they sure don't build them like that anymore. Sure it doesn't have all the fancy features that a lot of modern ovens offer, but I pretty much only use it to reheat leftovers and mugs of hot water for making cocoa or tea anyway.

I also have a 1941 Philco console radio in my livingroom that I restored about 10 years ago that I use frequently too. Nothing wrong with old stuff, sometimes newer stuff is better, other times it's just newer. I hate the attitude that newer is automatically better than older.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on June 17, 2023, 07:29:28 am
Quote
I've been using Home Assistant for a few years now and at this point it is pretty fantastic

I've had it installed for a while but it's remained just as a curiosity. Reason being it stops working with some stuff for no apparent reason, then works again. Or I just can't get it to talk to some things. A while back I added a Duaha DVR to the network and next time I looked at HA there was a screenshot from my CCTV system! Cool! And then I did something (obviously, had to be me but I know now what) and now that screenshot just shows some meaningless error instead.

Quote
Ultimately I completely gave up on the community and found I could learn far more from random youtube home automation geeks who would just show how to do something instead of arguing or acting like someone is a moron for not understanding the vague documentation.

And you think relying on that is somehow better than relying on a commercial cloud service? I think you're just accepting it because it's free, but you're just as buggered if it goes wrong and there's no random youtube fix.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Infraviolet on June 17, 2023, 04:11:22 pm
" Ultimately I completely gave up on the community and found I could learn far more from random youtube home automation geeks"
If those geeks are showing, albeit in a specific "just click the red button, then type in '3'" sort of task oriented way rather than through full explanation, how to make use of open-source and other locally controleld options... It might not gve you the skills to debug it if it goes wrong, but if it works in the first place for you then it is a lot less likely to go wrong at a future time than a commercial cloud dependent system. Anything you locally control won't be subject to arbitrary updates and other silly changes, if you get it working once it is the sort of thing you could always probably fix by wiping everything back to its fresh state and doing your initial installation procedure again.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on June 17, 2023, 06:30:54 pm
you're just as buggered if it goes wrong and there's no random youtube fix.
If you've got a couple days to waste, there's always source code.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on June 17, 2023, 07:22:37 pm
And you think relying on that is somehow better than relying on a commercial cloud service? I think you're just accepting it because it's free, but you're just as buggered if it goes wrong and there's no random youtube fix.

Yes it's absolutely better, vastly superior, hands down, no question at all, it's not even close. I have essentially frozen my configuration at this point and I have backups, everything is all dialed in and "just works" and has for a couple of years now, it's been very reliable. If something goes wrong I have a fix, worst case I could go nuclear and wipe the entire system, reinstall and restore my most recent fully working backup. All this random stuff works together seamlessly rather than having to have a bunch of different ecosystems or getting locked entirely in to one company's products. My system is entirely self contained other than a few integrations that obviously have to rely on external data such as weather but with those I can choose from multiple different integrations. I could leave my system running as-is and 10 years later it will mostly still be working because I'm not forced to update and every one of the companies that made my stuff could go under and the only thing that would stop working is the Alexa integration because that relies on Amazon's cloud and of all the parts of my system that's the only one I've ever had any trouble with. It's incredibly customizable and I even have some unusual custom hardware like a couple of vintage elevator hall lanterns with esp8266 based controllers running Tasmota that I use as general purpose notification devices. It also controls the irrigation in my garden taking current and forecast weather conditions into account, it sends notifications to my mobile phone if one of the moisture sensors detects a water leak under a sink (had a drain pipe get knocked loose a couple times), if a garage door is left open, if I leave the house and one of the doors or ground accessible windows is open, reminds me to bring my potted pepper plants inside if the forecast temperature is too low, monitors moisture and tells me when it's time to water my houseplants, turns on lights automatically when I arrive home, turns them off when I leave, wakes me up with a sunrise effect of the bedroom lamp on work days, etc. I have >100 automations and rely on it pretty heavily at this point and I'm not aware of a commercial off the shelf system that would do everything I have it doing and certainly nothing cloud based that I could rely on long term to not break something, even a temporary outage would be unacceptable since I need my stuff to just work.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: james_s on June 17, 2023, 07:29:51 pm
" Ultimately I completely gave up on the community and found I could learn far more from random youtube home automation geeks"
If those geeks are showing, albeit in a specific "just click the red button, then type in '3'" sort of task oriented way rather than through full explanation, how to make use of open-source and other locally controleld options... It might not gve you the skills to debug it if it goes wrong, but if it works in the first place for you then it is a lot less likely to go wrong at a future time than a commercial cloud dependent system. Anything you locally control won't be subject to arbitrary updates and other silly changes, if you get it working once it is the sort of thing you could always probably fix by wiping everything back to its fresh state and doing your initial installation procedure again.

The quality of the various tutorials is highly variable, but even the worst of them are usually better than the pompous and unhelpful assholes in the official community. I learn best by example, show me how to put together a working setup and then I'll explore from there and gradually learn how it works. If you're going to just tell me to read the documentation then give me documentation that is actually something close to complete and that has some working examples that I can build off of. At the start just getting the most basic stuff to work was ridiculously difficult but by now it has matured to the point where the basic happy path is pretty easy to get going without having to dig into yaml files.

Yes that is exactly the point, I don't have to know how to debug, I mean it helps but as long as I've got a backup then absolute worst case I can start over fairly easily. Unlike most commercial stuff these days I can easily roll back to a previous build, any arbitrary build I want. More than once I've done that, installed an update it was bugging me about, found that it broke something I didn't have time to mess with right then so I rolled it back and everything is working again. They release updates several times a month typically but I've settled into updating once or twice a year when I have time to tinker. Now that it does pretty much everything I need I'm not sure I'll bother updating again.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on June 23, 2023, 01:45:21 pm
" Ultimately I completely gave up on the community and found I could learn far more from random youtube home automation geeks"
If those geeks are showing, albeit in a specific "just click the red button, then type in '3'" sort of task oriented way rather than through full explanation, how to make use of open-source and other locally controleld options... It might not gve you the skills to debug it if it goes wrong, but if it works in the first place for you then it is a lot less likely to go wrong at a future time than a commercial cloud dependent system. Anything you locally control won't be subject to arbitrary updates and other silly changes, if you get it working once it is the sort of thing you could always probably fix by wiping everything back to its fresh state and doing your initial installation procedure again.

The quality of the various tutorials is highly variable, but even the worst of them are usually better than the pompous and unhelpful assholes in the official community. I learn best by example, show me how to put together a working setup and then I'll explore from there and gradually learn how it works. If you're going to just tell me to read the documentation then give me documentation that is actually something close to complete and that has some working examples that I can build off of. At the start just getting the most basic stuff to work was ridiculously difficult but by now it has matured to the point where the basic happy path is pretty easy to get going without having to dig into yaml files.

Yes that is exactly the point, I don't have to know how to debug, I mean it helps but as long as I've got a backup then absolute worst case I can start over fairly easily. Unlike most commercial stuff these days I can easily roll back to a previous build, any arbitrary build I want. More than once I've done that, installed an update it was bugging me about, found that it broke something I didn't have time to mess with right then so I rolled it back and everything is working again. They release updates several times a month typically but I've settled into updating once or twice a year when I have time to tinker. Now that it does pretty much everything I need I'm not sure I'll bother updating again.

That is getting to be a lost art in this era of subscription software (i.e. the build-and-forget closed system).   The subscription model forces the supplier to issue regular updates to justify the subscription, which is really just a huge pain in the neck as you incur the risk of problems every time that happens,  with very little gain to show for it...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on June 23, 2023, 03:16:08 pm
The only reliable way I know is to keep a virtual machine (VM) for each project. 

Not installer kits, not sources, not docker, only full, standalone VMs.  Those VMs are built from a typical Linux image, with all the needed software and build tools installed, never to be connected online, never to be updated, and I never use software that can not work offline.  This is still possible for hobby projects.

It takes about 4-10GB for each VM, but the HDD storage is cheap enough, and I don't have that many projects anyway.  The total disk space can be reduced a lot if using a file system with deduplication.

For work, use whatever method the company specifies.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on June 23, 2023, 05:33:58 pm
Quote
It takes about 4-10GB for each VM, but the HDD storage is cheap enough

It ain't once you multiply by the number of backups.

However, the way I partly get around this, which I'm sure is or should  be common practice, is to have a common base VM and then create clones of that for the real (virtual!) working stuff. The clone could be a few hundred MB if there are few differences to the base.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on June 23, 2023, 07:51:23 pm
For backup I am using Borg backup, https://www.borgbackup.org/ (https://www.borgbackup.org/) which does incremental backup, has native deduplication and compression.

Would gladly use something lighter than a full VM install, just that I don't know any other way to have something that will still run a few years later.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on June 23, 2023, 09:19:05 pm
For backup I am using Borg backup, https://www.borgbackup.org/ (https://www.borgbackup.org/) which does incremental backup, has native deduplication and compression.

I might give that a try, there's a package on my distro. Is it fully stable? Reasonably fast?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on June 23, 2023, 10:01:46 pm
For backup I am using Borg backup, https://www.borgbackup.org/ (https://www.borgbackup.org/) which does incremental backup, has native deduplication and compression.

Can you have multiple independent destinations?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on June 24, 2023, 07:44:39 am
I might give that a try, there's a package on my distro. Is it fully stable? Reasonably fast?

I'm using it for about a year now, didn't have any problems so far.  The only downside for me is that Borg is a command line backup, and I'm doing backups only rarely, so always forget how to backup.  Made some scripts.

There is also a 3rd party GUI for Borg, don't recall the name.  When I've tried it, I've noticed the GUI (not the Borg) was saving a password in clear, in a text file, so I've decided to use Borg only, from command line.  Made some personal scripts for the preferred compression.

Borg is using some sort of cache with checksums needed for deduplication and incremental backup.  If you keep that cache locally, at future backups it will be very fast.  First backup took many hours, then from there on, it only takes minutes.  The cache is discardable, but if you delete it, it will take again a few hours to rebuild it at the next backup.

TL;DR, so far worked without hassle for me, to keep backups for a few TB, from Linux to an external NAS.  Don't have much experience with other backup solutions, so I can not say how good it is by comparison with other backups.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on June 24, 2023, 09:23:53 am
Quote
so far worked without hassle for me, to keep backups for a few TB, from Linux to an external NAS

Have you done a full restore?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on June 24, 2023, 09:54:54 am
Tried only once, at the very beginning, and it worked.  Never since then.  :-[  I hope restore would still work.  An advantage worth mentioning is files in Borg backups can be mounted/read without restoring the whole backup.  Just in case of an impossibility to restore, I can just install fresh then paste over the configuration files.

However, for OS rollbacks (for example after a too early/buggy OS update, or when I brick something from my own mistake), I use a feature of Kubuntu with ZFS on root.  ZFS can do snapshots, but Kubuntu (Zsys was introduced as experimental in the Kubuntu 20.04 IIRC) added to ZFS another layer of tools, integrated with GRUB.

It is called "Zsys", https://didrocks.fr/2020/05/26/zfs-focus-on-ubuntu-20.04-lts-zsys-general-presentation/, and it does automated and/or manual OS snapshots, then can do rollbacks of the OS from the GRUB boot menu, similar with Windows restore.  Zsys restores can go back and forth with the rollbacks, too, as many times as you want, so if you change your mind you can start using another savepoint (needs a reboot).  Snapshot files alone can still be manually accessed without reboot (with some tricks).  Zsys has no GUI, only the command line and the GRUB boot menu.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on June 24, 2023, 11:19:21 am
In a CoW age all these old file based incremental backup solutions look really archaic.

Stuff like this should be the future :
https://github.com/tasket/wyng-backup (for thin provisioned LVM)
https://digint.ch/btrbk/ (for btrfs)

Unfortunately the distros have completely dropped the ball, sure most large companies use distributed filesystem but there's probably still workstations using local filesystems which need better incremental backup. AFAICS Redhat didn't even update xfsdump to use reflink. Veeam supports incremental updates with reflink though ...

PS. the ZFS stuff works too of course, but well ... ZFS ...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on June 24, 2023, 11:57:32 am
Quote
https://github.com/tasket/wyng-backup (for thin provisioned LVM)

Seems to be single destination.

In fact, that seems to be the expected modus operandi for these things: single backup server with multiple clients. What is really useful for the domestic or small business user is single client with multiple destinations, but with the ability to keep doing incs/diffs appropriate to each destination. That is, one destination won't interfere with the knowledge of which files have been stored and which have been changed, that the other holds.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on June 24, 2023, 12:15:06 pm
They are incremental snapshots of block devices, files are invisible to it period. You can put some snapshots on one server and some on the other, but I don't really see the point. Just rsync the backup server if you want a multihomed backup (though most people will backup to cloud, despite it never working long term).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on June 24, 2023, 07:23:18 pm
Quote
They are incremental snapshots of block devices, files are invisible to it period.

Makes no difference - the important aspect is 'incremental' (but actually diff is preferred here). If you have two destinations and choose inc/diffs, do they interfere with each other? That is, can one know the difference between what it's backed up and what's changed even when the other has gone in there and reset whatever change flag is used?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on June 24, 2023, 09:11:55 pm
So far I've stuck with rsync and partclone. rsync for file-level backups, partclone for full-partition backups.

On Windows, I used Acronis True Image, for partition-level, incremental backups, which worked reasonably well. Didn't like the latest versions too much though, which tended to be slower while adding a lot of "phoning home" crap.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on June 24, 2023, 11:15:23 pm
Used to use True Image a long time ago but steered away when I had problems restoring data. Maybe it's got better since, but typically stuff doesn't get a second chance to lose things for me.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on June 26, 2023, 12:44:11 am
The only reliable way I know is to keep a virtual machine (VM) for each project. 

Not installer kits, not sources, not docker, only full, standalone VMs.  Those VMs are built from a typical Linux image, with all the needed software and build tools installed, never to be connected online, never to be updated, and I never use software that can not work offline.  This is still possible for hobby projects.

It takes about 4-10GB for each VM, but the HDD storage is cheap enough, and I don't have that many projects anyway.  The total disk space can be reduced a lot if using a file system with deduplication.

For work, use whatever method the company specifies.

That's pretty much what I do as well.   This approach needs more hardware and storage, but it is worth it overall.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on June 26, 2023, 12:46:15 am
Quote
It takes about 4-10GB for each VM, but the HDD storage is cheap enough

It ain't once you multiply by the number of backups.

However, the way I partly get around this, which I'm sure is or should  be common practice, is to have a common base VM and then create clones of that for the real (virtual!) working stuff. The clone could be a few hundred MB if there are few differences to the base.

Yes, I have set up synced VMs between different servers just by syncing the diffs, not the base VM itself.  Very efficient.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on June 29, 2023, 12:11:35 am
I'm evaluating restic - so far good impression. https://restic.net/
It's pretty fast. The first backup run of 25GiB over 300k+ files took about 1 min. I'll do some more testing and see if I stick with it.


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on June 29, 2023, 04:11:07 am
In terms of speed, this is from console output yesterday, happened to made a backup with Borg.
Quote
Duration: 14 minutes 33.41 seconds
Number of files: 503950
Utilization of max. archive size: 0%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                       Original size      Compressed size    Deduplicated size
This archive:   622.11 GB         296.43 GB                   4.39 GB
All archives:        2.42 TB              1.13 TB               219.73 GB

                       Unique chunks         Total chunks
Chunk index:            412643              2542887
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The NAS has a slow 100Mbps LAN and writes even slower, at about 5MB/s.  Backup deduplicated and compressed (--compression=zstd, chosen after a few tests regarding compression size and speed).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on July 13, 2023, 11:17:16 am
Microsoft totally screwed up their cloud token validation and selling it as mitigating a China-based threat actor targeting customer email who exploited a token validation issue: https://msrc.microsoft.com/blog/2023/07/microsoft-mitigates-china-based-threat-actor-storm-0558-targeting-of-customer-email/

Quote
The actor used an acquired MSA key to forge tokens to access OWA and Outlook.com. MSA (consumer) keys and Azure AD (enterprise) keys are issued and managed from separate systems and should only be valid for their respective systems. The actor exploited a token validation issue to impersonate Azure AD users and gain access to enterprise mail.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 13, 2023, 10:04:31 pm
Anyone trusting MS for their data is a fool IMHO.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on July 15, 2023, 04:28:57 pm
More about Microsoft's latest 0-days (downplayed as token validation issue):
- Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo's emails hacked in Microsoft cyber breach (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/commerce-secretary-gina-raimondos-emails-hacked-microsoft-cyber/story?id=101201179 (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/commerce-secretary-gina-raimondos-emails-hacked-microsoft-cyber/story?id=101201179))
- Microsoft takes pains to obscure role in 0-days that caused email breach (https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/07/microsoft-takes-pains-to-obscure-role-in-0-days-that-caused-email-breach/ (https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/07/microsoft-takes-pains-to-obscure-role-in-0-days-that-caused-email-breach/))
- Analysis of Storm-0558 techniques for unauthorized email access (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2023/07/14/analysis-of-storm-0558-techniques-for-unauthorized-email-access/ (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2023/07/14/analysis-of-storm-0558-techniques-for-unauthorized-email-access/))

TL;DR: It's so bad that MS tries really hard to downplay the 0-days.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on July 15, 2023, 04:32:04 pm
Microsoft totally screwed up their cloud token validation and selling it as mitigating a China-based threat actor targeting customer email who exploited a token validation issue: https://msrc.microsoft.com/blog/2023/07/microsoft-mitigates-china-based-threat-actor-storm-0558-targeting-of-customer-email/
Microsoft usually only puts token effort into the things they do.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on July 16, 2023, 07:41:04 am
When your e-bike is too smart and the manufacturer is almost busted:

  VanMoof ebike mess highlights a risk with all pricey smart hardware (https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/14/vanmoof-ebike-mess/)

Luckily, a competitor offers a solution.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Kim Christensen on July 16, 2023, 03:56:04 pm
When your e-bike is too smart and the manufacturer is almost busted:

That's just dumb. Not "smart" at all. Why not make it 100% bluetooth, or at least give the option of lower "security" without the rolling code. Maybe it's not that way in Europe, but where I live it's quite feasible that you get out of cell tower range on bike trails. Then you stop for lunch and poof, you're walking back.  :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on July 16, 2023, 06:52:33 pm
When your e-bike is too smart and the manufacturer is almost busted:

  VanMoof ebike mess highlights a risk with all pricey smart hardware (https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/14/vanmoof-ebike-mess/)

Luckily, a competitor offers a solution.
For so many of these things the lifetime of the warranty is much less important than the lifetime of the vendor.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TimFox on July 16, 2023, 07:55:42 pm
In a late Warner-Brothers "Roadrunner" cartoon,  the coyote purchased a bat-man flying suit from Acme products that was "guaranteed for the life of the purchaser".
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on July 16, 2023, 09:38:46 pm
In a late Warner-Brothers "Roadrunner" cartoon,  the coyote purchased a bat-man flying suit from Acme products that was "guaranteed for the life of the purchaser".
cf the old joke: "Its guaranteed for life and it has broken" "Well, that's the end of its life. Guarantee nulled"
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2023, 10:04:02 pm
Fun stuff. Likewise, imagine a car guaranteed for the lifetime of the purchaser.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: TimFox on July 16, 2023, 10:31:51 pm
Incentives!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SL4P on July 18, 2023, 03:35:14 am
The way the internet and cloud services have evolved - is a fragile house of cards.
You have your purchase, connected via your service provider to the carrier to transport your data ton a essentially unknown remote carrier and provider - to the product seller, who may or may not just all the required assets on their own hardware - then the reverse of this to send your processed replies back to you.

At no point on the route do you have any control or security of your own data.
It sort of works until now, but what happens when it all falls in a heap for an hour, day, week, month, forever.
Not the whole system, just one part being managed from a college dorm in Romania   
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 18, 2023, 03:52:27 am
The way the internet and cloud servicesmodern societies have evolved - is a fragile house of cards.

Just unplug the cord and see the whole thing collapse in no time flat.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on July 18, 2023, 04:12:14 am
...
At no point on the route do you have any control or security of your own data.
It sort of works until now, but what happens when it all falls in a heap for an hour, day, week, month, forever.
Not the whole system, just one part being managed from a college dorm in Romania

I would be more worried for what happens when it all falls in a college dorm in Australia.
'Cause Australia being upside down, it will fall down under Earth, lost in outer space.  ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 18, 2023, 08:36:00 pm
The reason Australians do not fall into space is because the Earth is a fast-spinning disc and objects get stuck to the underneath surface thanks to the Coandă effect.
 :-DD

Note: actually I'm currently developing a new theory for gravity in which it would all boil down to fluid mechanics. The universe would be full of some so-called "dark fluid" and gravity would be an effect of fluid mechanics. I'm smelling the Nobel prize. ;D

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on July 28, 2023, 01:23:57 pm
Another update on Microsoft's stolen cloud key:
- Stolen Microsoft Key: The Impact Is Higher Than Expected (https://heimdalsecurity.com/blog/stolen-microsoft-key-the-impact-is-higher-than-expected/)

Based on several reports we can assume that all cloud services were affected, also 3rd party services with a 'Sign in with Microsoft' button. Instead of helping users to detect compromised accounts and possibly installed backdoors Microsoft is still downplaying things and prolonging the disaster this way.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 28, 2023, 03:55:19 pm
Note: actually I'm currently developing a new theory for gravity in which it would all boil down to fluid mechanics. The universe would be full of some so-called "dark fluid" and gravity would be an effect of fluid mechanics. I'm smelling the Nobel prize. ;D
Me too!  You need to set up a web page called The Fluid Universe, and explain why the dark fluid must not be called 'ether', though.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: RoGeorge on July 29, 2023, 06:47:21 am
Note: actually I'm currently developing a new theory for gravity in which it would all boil down to fluid mechanics. The universe would be full of some so-called "dark fluid" and gravity would be an effect of fluid mechanics. I'm smelling the Nobel prize. ;D
Me too!  You need to set up a web page called The Fluid Universe, and explain why the dark fluid must not be called 'ether', though.

Same here!  Mine is about matter (as in mass) emanating space, which space is seen as a fluid (a "compressible" one).  That will remove the need for dark matter (a little more complicated to deal with the dark energy, that one might still be needed).  Such theory would explain the rotation speed anomaly in the skirt of galaxies, explain inflating universe as new space coming into existence, the red shift, and so on.  Would bring enough nagging even without reintroducing the old Aether.  Any name suggestions for a new (compressible) Aether?  ;D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2023, 01:22:36 pm
Mine is about matter (as in mass) emanating space, which space is seen as a fluid (a "compressible" one).
I started developing a model of a hypertoroidal universe, where time is parallel to the axis of the toroid, but soon veered into metaphysics when I realized that fundamentally, humans too can be modelled as very similar multidimensional hypertoroids; leading into musings of how we just might be the universe reflecting on itself.

Stuff goes in, shit comes out, you see.

Just be glad I didn't include the bit about how old-timey Finns knew all that, as they used to tell each other "Torilla tavataan": "We shall meet at the tori again".
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on July 29, 2023, 06:12:06 pm
Trueimage works fine if you configure the HD controller as "IDE".

With a SATA drive it is not actually IDE nowadays but the block mapping is, and it works perfectly on any PC, and always restores.

I use TI v10 which is about 12 years old.

Once you go to HCPI or whatever it is called you often cannot restore a backup. Later versions of TI supported that but often badly. So my win10 laptop is not image backed-up anymore.

Cloud software is a stupid idea. But ultimately all this comes down to where you want to keep your backups. Cloud backups can be lost, but so can the ones you make to say a network drive.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 29, 2023, 07:13:05 pm
Can't TrueImage mount an image backup as a virtual drive, so you can access the files on there without restoring the entire thing to a real disk?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on July 29, 2023, 08:06:30 pm
Yes it can but that is ok for restoring data, not for restoring a whole disk image.

The latter is not possible (with any OS) unless you boot the machine from a bootable CD or similar which contains enough of TI to read the image backup file (on e.g. a network drive) and restore it all to the HD (original HD or a new HD). This is because every OS has various open files which you can't write while running live. Last time that was possible was with DOS 6.22 :)

But if you want to backup/restore non-OS data, you can just drag/drop/sync whatever to a network drive... I backup a current project to a network drive at each relevant juncture, and have a 3am sync to dropbox in case I made a mess of something.

The challenge is backup/restore of a drive on which the OS lives. This is hard because while a backup can be made using the OS's logical sector API (no need for bootable media for that*) a restore needs bootable media which must support whatever physical HD controller you have, and the various modern variants like UEFI etc are horrible. See people tearing their hair out on the TI forum...


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2023, 08:29:20 pm
Yes it can but that is ok for restoring data, not for restoring a whole disk image.

The latter is not possible (with any OS)
Oh, it is quite possible, if you have the image's worth of unused storage space, and are using logical volume management.  (Not just on Linux, but on many other OSes as well.)

You create a writable snapshot/fork of the current ("bad") filesystem, and restore the image over that snapshot, instead of the running system.

You can keep using your current system while the restore is in progress, too; the two are now separate.  Many logical volume managers use copy-on-write, so stuff that does not diverge between the two does not need to be duplicated.  (It might need a bit of help from the image tools; if they don't write the same data over the same block, COW is much easier to manage correctly.)

Before you reboot, or on your next reboot, you tell your volume manager which snapshot will be the active one.  After you've booted to the new system, you can still examine the other one, and when you're done, delete it.

But before you ask, no, I don't know of any easy to use GUIs that can do this for you.  I am comfy with the command interfaces, and have no idea what kind of GUI tools are available or not.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on July 29, 2023, 09:05:07 pm
OK; sure. You deal with this in the partition manager or whatever. But this is not a trivial thing to do for someone who wants to just back up their PC or laptop.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on July 29, 2023, 10:08:38 pm
Not sure what version of True Image you're on. I've been able to save and restore partitions even between different drives with no problem for a rather long time.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 30, 2023, 12:36:25 am
OK; sure. You deal with this in the partition manager or whatever. But this is not a trivial thing to do for someone who wants to just back up their PC or laptop.
Logical volume management (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_volume_management).  It's an abstraction layer on top of the hardware storage devices, decades old, already used in old Unix machines.  Partition manager is a completely different thing.

But I do agree it isn't trivial at all to do, and requires sysadmin-type knowledge to do.  I just needed to point out it is possible, and only requires detailed knowledge, not say expensive enterprise solutions or custom hardware.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: vad on July 30, 2023, 02:03:02 am
Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.
Baloney!
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car)Cheap cars have more capability/safety/features/functions than ever and still remain cheap.


You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the facts!


According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median individual income in 1976 was $6,617 which is $32,572 in 2023 dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Consumers paid an average price of $5,450 ($29,586 in 2023 dollars) for a new car in 1976, according to National Automobile Dealers Association numbers.

So, in 1976 Joe Average could buy  $32,572 / $29,586  =   1.1 average new cars per year for his Joe Average wage.

In the year 2022, the median individual income was $46,001 and the average price of a new car at the end of 2022 was $49,388!   

So in 2022, Joe Average can now only afford 0.93 new average cars per year on his Joe Average salary.

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!
Lol. What it tells is that in 2022, the average Joe had better access to credit than in 1976.

The most popular car in 2022 was the Ford F-150. Compare that to the Oldsmobile Cutlass, which was popular in 1976.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: MrMobodies on July 30, 2023, 10:56:50 am
So far I've stuck with rsync and partclone. rsync for file-level backups, partclone for full-partition backups.

On Windows, I used Acronis True Image, for partition-level, incremental backups, which worked reasonably well. Didn't like the latest versions too much though, which tended to be slower while adding a lot of "phoning home" crap.

Was that the one with the tiles?

I use to use Ghost but no support for EFIl
In 2018 I was mis sold Acronis True Image and lied to.
I emailed them telling them what I wanted to do and what package that will do it.
Simply put:
Connect hard drive to sata, copy drive to disc image file.
Low level format hard drive, extract image file to disk.

When I clicked the tiles I was presented with purchasing it. So I purchahed it for £30 I think.
I found couldn't extract an image direct to disk and kept on directing me to create a recovery usb pendrive and do a lot whole of stuff.
I think found out why:
https://www.acronis.com/en-gb/blog/posts/how-to-restore-individual-files/#:~:text=Although (https://www.acronis.com/en-gb/blog/posts/how-to-restore-individual-files/#:~:text=Although) we generally think of,been accidentally deleted or corrupted.
Quote
Although we generally think of full-image backup software (also known as disk-image backup software) in terms of restoring an entire partition or disk, many restoration jobs don't involve entire disks or partitions. Instead, users need to recover a single file or folder that has been accidentally deleted or corrupted.  :bullshit:

Quote
Acronis True Image has several additional features not usually found in other disk-imaging backup software. :bullshit:
More like removing features.

Emailing them back with the issue, I was told it wouldn't do it. I then had an argument with that sales person about lying to me and wasting my time.

He told me to request for a refund which I did and that was that and that was when I found Macrium Reflect with a 60 day free trial that did exactly what I wanted very easily with no aggravation or tiles and bloat.


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on July 30, 2023, 05:51:54 pm
Acronis lost the plot about 10 years ago, but to be fair they could not have kept up with all the weird HD controller interfaces which have arrived post-IDE.

As I posted above, if you set your controller to "IDE" (whether actually SATA or not makes less than 10% speed difference, I found) the Acronis Trueimage 2010 works fine, including win7-64 which is as far as I have run it. And it has no licensing check.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on July 30, 2023, 06:03:39 pm
Acronis lost the plot about 10 years ago, but to be fair they could not have kept up with all the weird HD controller interfaces which have arrived post-IDE.

As I posted above, if you set your controller to "IDE" (whether actually SATA or not makes less than 10% speed difference, I found) the Acronis Trueimage 2010 works fine, including win7-64 which is as far as I have run it. And it has no licensing check.
I recently had to migrate a Windows machine's system disk to something bigger. Western Digital and most other disk makers offer a free copy of Acronis tied to their hardware being present. Its massively overpriced. Absolutely useless. I asked a couple of people who had migrated disks, and they had all failed with Acronis and used Macrium. Macrium, is a paid for program, but you can get a 30 day free trial, and it only takes a day to migrate a disk. Macrium is easy to set up, and gives a very clear picture of the things its about to do, minimising the risk of doing something stupid and destructive. Once you set it going it copies as fast as the media will allow. The only issue I had is Macrium didn't set up an MBR on the new disk. I had to use a Windows 10 recovery USB stick to put one on the new disk. Highly recommended.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 30, 2023, 09:21:11 pm
As I posted above, if you set your controller to "IDE" (whether actually SATA or not makes less than 10% speed difference, I found) the Acronis Trueimage 2010 works fine, including win7-64 which is as far as I have run it.

Reason it doesn't like SATA is because Windows 7 didn't ship with an SATA driver (technology too new). Although the existing driver would work the problem is that the PCI subclass ID for SATA is one out from the subclass ID for ATA (aka IDE): 06 vs 05. Thus the when the PCI gubbins looks for a suitable handler there is nowt volunteering. If you change the BIOS to IDE then it merely changes the subclass to 05 and everything works.

The proper fix is to just slipstream the SATA driver. Best to do that when the OS is running so it makes it into the backup. Makes restoring onto modern hardware must simpler!
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on July 30, 2023, 09:31:33 pm
As I posted above, if you set your controller to "IDE" (whether actually SATA or not makes less than 10% speed difference, I found) the Acronis Trueimage 2010 works fine, including win7-64 which is as far as I have run it.

Reason it doesn't like SATA is because Windows 7 didn't ship with an SATA driver (technology too new). Although the existing driver would work the problem is that the PCI subclass ID for SATA is one out from the subclass ID for ATA (aka IDE): 06 vs 05. Thus the when the PCI gubbins looks for a suitable handler there is nowt volunteering. If you change the BIOS to IDE then it merely changes the subclass to 05 and everything works.

The proper fix is to just slipstream the SATA driver. Best to do that when the OS is running so it makes it into the backup. Makes restoring onto modern hardware must simpler!
SATA was mature when Windows 7 launched, and it fully supported native (AHCI) SATA operation. I think you might be referring to an issue where a Windows 7 system installed with the drives in IDE emulation mode will not boot if you set the SATA controller to AHCI mode in the BIOS. Windows 7 installed in ACHI mode is fine.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 30, 2023, 11:16:58 pm
As I posted above, if you set your controller to "IDE" (whether actually SATA or not makes less than 10% speed difference, I found) the Acronis Trueimage 2010 works fine, including win7-64 which is as far as I have run it.

Reason it doesn't like SATA is because Windows 7 didn't ship with an SATA driver (technology too new). Although the existing driver would work the problem is that the PCI subclass ID for SATA is one out from the subclass ID for ATA (aka IDE): 06 vs 05. Thus the when the PCI gubbins looks for a suitable handler there is nowt volunteering. If you change the BIOS to IDE then it merely changes the subclass to 05 and everything works.

The proper fix is to just slipstream the SATA driver. Best to do that when the OS is running so it makes it into the backup. Makes restoring onto modern hardware must simpler!
SATA was mature when Windows 7 launched, and it fully supported native (AHCI) SATA operation. I think you might be referring to an issue where a Windows 7 system installed with the drives in IDE emulation mode will not boot if you set the SATA controller to AHCI mode in the BIOS. Windows 7 installed in ACHI mode is fine.

Quite a while since I had to sort this out, but my recollection is that on the PC affected W7 would start the install and then fail when it came to copying the ISO contents during install. So not previously installed using IDE emulation. As it happens, I'm sure I've still got that hardware so if I get bored I might dig it out and try it again...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on July 31, 2023, 06:02:06 am
SATA was mature when Windows 7 launched, and it fully supported native (AHCI) SATA operation. I think you might be referring to an issue where a Windows 7 system installed with the drives in IDE emulation mode will not boot if you set the SATA controller to AHCI mode in the BIOS. Windows 7 installed in ACHI mode is fine.

Quite a while since I had to sort this out, but my recollection is that on the PC affected W7 would start the install and then fail when it came to copying the ISO contents during install. So not previously installed using IDE emulation. As it happens, I'm sure I've still got that hardware so if I get bored I might dig it out and try it again...

I was wrong. Now there's a surprise!

Dug the PC out and it is XP. Seems I got my Windows version confused.  :palm:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: peter-h on July 31, 2023, 06:41:38 am
Of course win7 supports SATA. As does winXP.

Quote
The proper fix is to just slipstream the SATA driver.

Yeah - 97.5% of posts on the Acronis forum tell you to do that ;) Bloody complicated, only for totally whizzo experts, useless for everybody else who will end up doing backups which cannot be restored.

Later versions of TI support SATA but it is the newer UEFI etc stuff which forces you to buy an ever newer version of TI, and that is a PITA because you have to do it for every new laptop.

The fact is that most normal computer users cannot do this, so it is a useless solution.

And "cloud" backup is also because it won't restore the whole media. You get user data backed up, sure. But not the boot stuff and the OS; those can be restored only with bootable media (unless again you are a total expert, and have a 2x bigger HD). "Cloud" is also very expensive.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on August 03, 2023, 12:20:19 pm
Another total cloud screw-up by Microsoft:
Unauthorized Access to Cross-Tenant Applications in a Microsoft Azure Service (https://www.tenable.com/security/research/tra-2023-25 (https://www.tenable.com/security/research/tra-2023-25))

No details yet, but the timeline is very interesting.

Update:
Microsoft comes under blistering criticism for “grossly irresponsible” security (https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-cloud-security-blasted-for-its-culture-of-toxic-obfuscation/ (https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-cloud-security-blasted-for-its-culture-of-toxic-obfuscation/))
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on August 04, 2023, 11:13:53 am
Another total cloud screw-up by Microsoft:
Unauthorized Access to Cross-Tenant Applications in a Microsoft Azure Service (https://www.tenable.com/security/research/tra-2023-25 (https://www.tenable.com/security/research/tra-2023-25))

No details yet, but the timeline is very interesting.

Update:
Microsoft comes under blistering criticism for “grossly irresponsible” security (https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-cloud-security-blasted-for-its-culture-of-toxic-obfuscation/ (https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/08/microsoft-cloud-security-blasted-for-its-culture-of-toxic-obfuscation/))


Many firms in the financial industry (e.g. big banks etc.) have a total cloud ban when it comes to storing transactions.  -  Looks like they were prescient!

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on August 15, 2023, 12:00:18 pm
Department of Homeland Security’s Cyber Safety Review Board to Conduct Review on Cloud Security: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2023/08/11/department-homeland-securitys-cyber-safety-review-board-conduct-review-cloud (https://www.dhs.gov/news/2023/08/11/department-homeland-securitys-cyber-safety-review-board-conduct-review-cloud)

... triggered by Microsoft's cloud screw-ups.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on August 16, 2023, 09:39:27 am
Google Assistant support on older watches ‘ending soon,’

https://9to5google.com/2023/08/15/google-assistant-wear-os/ (https://9to5google.com/2023/08/15/google-assistant-wear-os/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on August 18, 2023, 11:39:11 am
Fun things can happen when your 3D printer is  cloudified:
3D printer nightmare fuel: Bambu X1C and P1P started printing while owners were asleep (https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/16/23064592/bambu-print-asleep-cloud-outage (https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/16/23064592/bambu-print-asleep-cloud-outage))
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 18, 2023, 10:38:17 pm
Fun things can happen when your 3D printer is  cloudified:
3D printer nightmare fuel: Bambu X1C and P1P started printing while owners were asleep (https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/16/23064592/bambu-print-asleep-cloud-outage (https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/16/23064592/bambu-print-asleep-cloud-outage))

That sounds so much like good engineering! :-+
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on August 23, 2023, 01:56:04 pm
Criminals go full Viking on CloudNordic, wipe all servers and customer data: https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/23/ransomware_wipes_cloudnordic/ (https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/23/ransomware_wipes_cloudnordic/)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on August 23, 2023, 04:58:08 pm
Interesting seeing them also being trashed  by the armchair warriors who, of course, are themselves completely faultless. Even when away from a keyboard.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on August 31, 2023, 10:33:12 pm

Someone I know (female, quiet, hard working, stable citizen etc.) recently had their Facebook account hacked.  The hackers did something that caused Facebook to flag the account with "copyright violation" and terminating it.  Facebook won't reinstate the account, all attempts have lead to a dead end.  A decade or more of photos, conversations...   gone.

Yet another reason to avoid relying too much on cloud services.  Truly, they are fair weather friends only...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppercone2 on August 31, 2023, 11:14:18 pm
there is another problem too, license related games. some companies make the DMV look good when it comes to your license. you worried about getting revoked? how about just plain old disappearance and loss of identity?

declared legally dead a year after promise of immortality.  ::)

with the ways things are run in corporate, a license is like being a citizen of a transient revolutionary state which is in the middle of two coups (nazi and also socialist), foreign interference from 4 other terrestrial nations, a foreign galactic superpower (USA government) and also natural disaster prone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terminal

it's like if you put deep space nine, bejor, cardassia and the worm hole in the trisection between klingons, romulans and federation (the show normal setting is not crazy enough to depict corporate licensing), and a drunk Q is required also. and second worm hole that goes into borg space

and the mad funny thing is that this is about PDF which you can literarly replace with paper. no miniturization and optical tricks like its some IC mask thing, its just fucking paperwork
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on September 01, 2023, 06:31:57 am

Someone I know (female, quiet, hard working, stable citizen etc.) recently had their Facebook account hacked.  The hackers did something that caused Facebook to flag the account with "copyright violation" and terminating it.  Facebook won't reinstate the account, all attempts have lead to a dead end.  A decade or more of photos, conversations...   gone.

Yet another reason to avoid relying too much on cloud services.  Truly, they are fair weather friends only...

I tried facebook 15 years ago. After 2 weeks I emptied and canceled my account. Never touched it again.
No whatsapp, instagram or twitter here. Social media is a curse, a tool of hate.
I do use Telegram though for business and to stay in contact with friends and family abroad.
But no "channel subscriptions"...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Marco on September 01, 2023, 08:00:15 am
Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on September 01, 2023, 09:33:58 am
Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.

Whatever. I don't use anything from tech giants.
If it wasn't for OsmAnd which I use for navigating when hiking and traveling, I would replace my iphone with a dumbphone.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on September 01, 2023, 09:57:53 am
Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.

Also sucks all your contacts out of your phone and sends them back to base before you can says "WTF". Doesn't have a desktop (no, a browser running in background forever is not a desktop app), and requires a phone number. Even the browser requires you to keep logging in through that phone number.

OTOH, XMPP has none of that yet still works very well. Whatsapp and the like could have built on that.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 01, 2023, 12:55:36 pm
Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.
The group features of Whatsapp are very much used as social media. Not the wide open kind, but often for quite wide ranging groups.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on September 01, 2023, 09:00:17 pm
Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.
The group features of Whatsapp are very much used as social media. Not the wide open kind, but often for quite wide ranging groups.

Yep, that's what I've heard too. I don't use it personally, but it's like everyone who advertises their Whatsapp number does it for making others join their group. Pretty much like small social networks.
Looks like dumbed down Discord actually, in practice.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 02, 2023, 03:20:35 pm

What is the best messenger type app, for heretics that just want to connect with friends and family without being Borg'd?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on September 02, 2023, 03:37:07 pm
Depends how much they can be bothered to run another client.

Here I run an ejabberd server so we are doing XMPP. On my PC I run MirandaNG which is a cool desktop client, my partner runs pidgin on her desktop and Yaxim on her phone. There are other clients, and you can go federation to connect worldwide if you want.

Main problem with all of these is the client. Once upon a time I could do XMPP, Skype, Twitter, Yahoo, Quakenet, etc., all from this one client, so there was no problem just having it backgrounding in the task tray and anyone could contact me at any time. Now, none of those work except for XMPP because they've all decided to take control of the users, so to do the same now I'd need a separate client for each, and those would probably be browser-based and essentially drag my computer to its knees just so I can be available. Fuck that. I will fire up Skype if someone texts me and says they want to chat, which isn't conducive to ad-hoc chatting which these apps and protocols is supposed to be about.

So the tl;dr is either the people you contact would need to be similarly into none of the popular stuff, or they would need to put up with yet another app running that won't be doing anything most of the time.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Gyro on September 02, 2023, 04:30:07 pm

What is the best messenger type app, for heretics that just want to connect with friends and family without being Borg'd?

1. Signal - if you want a secure similar experience to Whatsapp (but including groups). Non-profit, phone number based.

2. If you want a secure bare-bones non Borg'd messenger then the free VSee messenger app, email address based. VSee is a Telemedicine company that provides secure messaging and video consultations for medical professionals. VSee messenger is the free app they provide for users [Edit: patients]. It's nice and basic, no groups, not even emojis (it does provide file transfer though) but clean and reliable.

I like to know where the revenue stream comes from for an app, Signal is non-profit, non company affiliated, donation based. VSee make their money from selling their full services to medical providers. Whatsapp's is the Borg.

I started with VSee, added Signal as it was a bit more mainstream but now their Desktop app no longer works on my Windows7(!) I've gone back to VSee.

Video quality for both apps is fine.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SiliconWizard on September 02, 2023, 09:11:44 pm
Yeah, I have Signal too. It's not too bad.

Whatsapp has been part of Meta for a while. I'm sure it's very private and secure - that's definitely Meta's motto.

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 03, 2023, 11:19:33 am
Depends how much they can be bothered to run another client.

Here I run an ejabberd server so we are doing XMPP. On my PC I run MirandaNG which is a cool desktop client, my partner runs pidgin on her desktop and Yaxim on her phone. There are other clients, and you can go federation to connect worldwide if you want.

Main problem with all of these is the client. Once upon a time I could do XMPP, Skype, Twitter, Yahoo, Quakenet, etc., all from this one client, so there was no problem just having it backgrounding in the task tray and anyone could contact me at any time. Now, none of those work except for XMPP because they've all decided to take control of the users, so to do the same now I'd need a separate client for each, and those would probably be browser-based and essentially drag my computer to its knees just so I can be available. Fuck that. I will fire up Skype if someone texts me and says they want to chat, which isn't conducive to ad-hoc chatting which these apps and protocols is supposed to be about.

So the tl;dr is either the people you contact would need to be similarly into none of the popular stuff, or they would need to put up with yet another app running that won't be doing anything most of the time.


The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 03, 2023, 11:21:28 am
Yeah, I have Signal too. It's not too bad.

Whatsapp has been part of Meta for a while. I'm sure it's very private and secure - that's definitely Meta's motto.

I am beginning to appreciate the French sense of humour!  :D
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 03, 2023, 11:52:59 am
Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
You forget: those companies are not in the business to sell communications services, they are in the business of selling detailed consumer information and profiles on anyone using that service.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 03, 2023, 02:30:06 pm
Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
You forget: those companies are not in the business to sell communications services, they are in the business of selling detailed consumer information and profiles on anyone using that service.

Yes, but who were the geniuses that gave these firms the keys to the communications castle without considering fragmentation as an obvious issue?   

This constitutes political failure to regulate the market at its most obvious.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: BradC on September 03, 2023, 03:21:29 pm
Yes, but who were the geniuses that gave these firms the keys to the communications castle without considering fragmentation as an obvious issue?   

This constitutes political failure to regulate the market at its most obvious.

What is the other option? Design by committee?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 03, 2023, 03:32:18 pm
Yes, but who were the geniuses that gave these firms the keys to the communications castle without considering fragmentation as an obvious issue?   

This constitutes political failure to regulate the market at its most obvious.

What is the other option? Design by committee?
No, just regulate them politically the same way you do all other utilities.  The protocols are equivalent to letting each electricity company decide what frequency and voltage they provide their customers.  The already existing de-facto standard would be XMPP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP).
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on September 03, 2023, 05:22:54 pm
Quote
This constitutes political failure to regulate the market at its most obvious.

Had they done that we'd be complaining about the internet being politicised :)

Besides which, when should they have done it? When someone first writes a few lines and chats with their mates? When more than 100 people use it? When it needs more than one server to handle the traffic? Next you'd be wanting there to be One True OS and every app must conform and run on that.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 03, 2023, 06:10:57 pm
The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 05, 2023, 01:19:52 am
The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 05, 2023, 02:35:22 pm
The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...
SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 05, 2023, 02:39:58 pm
The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...
SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.

Yes, but today SMS is (usually) cheap, and it works!  What they choose to charge is not really related to what it does...
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 05, 2023, 03:04:20 pm
The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...
SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.

Yes, but today SMS is (usually) cheap, and it works!  What they choose to charge is not really related to what it does...
What you charge DETERMINES what something does in practice. Something everyone should be familiar with in regard to what has happened to perceptions of good uses for energy in the past 3 years, where it has been priced out of various otherwise desirable things.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 05, 2023, 06:22:03 pm
The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...
SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.

Yes, but today SMS is (usually) cheap, and it works!  What they choose to charge is not really related to what it does...
What you charge DETERMINES what something does in practice. Something everyone should be familiar with in regard to what has happened to perceptions of good uses for energy in the past 3 years, where it has been priced out of various otherwise desirable things.

Yes, but the cost of providing the energy went up (a lot)...   The cost of providing a simple interoperability interface should not be too bad.   Maybe everyone could code to some preferably open source API.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 05, 2023, 07:21:19 pm
The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...
Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...
SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.

Yes, but today SMS is (usually) cheap, and it works!  What they choose to charge is not really related to what it does...
What you charge DETERMINES what something does in practice. Something everyone should be familiar with in regard to what has happened to perceptions of good uses for energy in the past 3 years, where it has been priced out of various otherwise desirable things.

Yes, but the cost of providing the energy went up (a lot)...   The cost of providing a simple interoperability interface should not be too bad.   Maybe everyone could code to some preferably open source API.
You seem to be responding to an entirely different thread.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on September 06, 2023, 05:07:52 pm
Remember the LastPass breach?

Experts Fear Crooks are Cracking Keys Stolen in LastPass Breach: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2023/09/experts-fear-crooks-are-cracking-keys-stolen-in-lastpass-breach/
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on September 06, 2023, 06:09:37 pm
Wow! Glad I never succumbed to a cloud PM.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 07, 2023, 10:46:15 pm
You seem to be responding to an entirely different thread.

Let me restate the argument:

Requiring interoperability promotes user choice and prevents lock-in. Instead of messaging apps acting as walled gardens or closed networks, interoperability allows users on different platforms to communicate, rather than being siloed. This gives users more freedom in choosing apps based on features, design, etc., rather than being forced to use the same platform as their contacts.

Requiring interoperability encourages competition and innovation. Interoperability lowers switching costs for users. This puts competitive pressure on platforms to constantly improve and add new features to retain users. It also levels the playing field for new entrants who can interconnect with dominant incumbents. Overall, this spurs innovation across the messaging ecosystem.  It is a defense against being abused by monopoly companies and their lobbyists.

Requiring interoperability improves the user experience, enabling exciting new use cases like unified messaging across multiple networks. Users can manage conversations with their full contact list in one place, rather than having fragmented discussions across disconnected apps. This makes messaging simpler, more seamless and intuitive.

Requiring interoperability promotes inclusion and equity. Lack of interoperability can exclude some demographics from conversations if they do not use all the dominant platforms du jour. Interoperability enables easier communication between all users regardless of socioeconomic status or technical savviness. This promotes more equitable access to digital communication tools.

Requiring interoperability can enables new functionalities and new growth areas like cross-platform payments, multimedia sharing, read receipts etc. Developers can build higher-level services on top of interconnected networks, like AI-based language translation between messaging apps. This could create richer, more functional messaging experiences.

Overall, even though mandating interoperability does place some minor burdens on messaging platforms, the benefits for users, competition and innovation outweigh these costs. This is why thoughtful regulation to require interoperability is beneficial, and the EU should continue to do what it does well - i.e. improve the lives of their citizens and strengthening its democratic credibility, while ignoring the siren voices of greedy corporations and their acolytes.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 08, 2023, 03:42:12 pm
You seem to be responding to an entirely different thread.

Let me restate the argument:

Requiring interoperability promotes user choice and prevents lock-in. Instead of messaging apps acting as walled gardens or closed networks, interoperability allows users on different platforms to communicate, rather than being siloed. This gives users more freedom in choosing apps based on features, design, etc., rather than being forced to use the same platform as their contacts.

Requiring interoperability encourages competition and innovation. Interoperability lowers switching costs for users. This puts competitive pressure on platforms to constantly improve and add new features to retain users. It also levels the playing field for new entrants who can interconnect with dominant incumbents. Overall, this spurs innovation across the messaging ecosystem.  It is a defense against being abused by monopoly companies and their lobbyists.

Requiring interoperability improves the user experience, enabling exciting new use cases like unified messaging across multiple networks. Users can manage conversations with their full contact list in one place, rather than having fragmented discussions across disconnected apps. This makes messaging simpler, more seamless and intuitive.

Requiring interoperability promotes inclusion and equity. Lack of interoperability can exclude some demographics from conversations if they do not use all the dominant platforms du jour. Interoperability enables easier communication between all users regardless of socioeconomic status or technical savviness. This promotes more equitable access to digital communication tools.

Requiring interoperability can enables new functionalities and new growth areas like cross-platform payments, multimedia sharing, read receipts etc. Developers can build higher-level services on top of interconnected networks, like AI-based language translation between messaging apps. This could create richer, more functional messaging experiences.

Overall, even though mandating interoperability does place some minor burdens on messaging platforms, the benefits for users, competition and innovation outweigh these costs. This is why thoughtful regulation to require interoperability is beneficial, and the EU should continue to do what it does well - i.e. improve the lives of their citizens and strengthening its democratic credibility, while ignoring the siren voices of greedy corporations and their acolytes.
What you said is very idealistic. As I said before, just be careful things don't backfire on you, and become the burden you seek to avoid. You have to be VERY VERY VERY VERY careful in what you do, because if there is one thing humans, every pretty dumb ones, are great at is stumbling on workarounds.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on September 08, 2023, 07:45:16 pm

What you said is very idealistic. As I said before, just be careful things don't backfire on you, and become the burden you seek to avoid. You have to be VERY VERY VERY VERY careful in what you do, because if there is one thing humans, every pretty dumb ones, are great at is stumbling on workarounds.

I'm an optimist, for sure!

Overcoming the inertia and business incentives that currently favor walled gardens will likely require regulatory action, as happened with telecom. Hopefully lawmakers are able to develop smart, pro-competition policies that move us toward more universal, seamless communication while still allowing space for ongoing innovation. Achieving the right balance is tricky but has huge potential upside for consumers if done well.

There's always scope for politicians to mess things up, of course.  Shouldn't stop us setting expectations, though.  What are we paying those guys for???   :D



Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on September 08, 2023, 08:35:33 pm

What you said is very idealistic. As I said before, just be careful things don't backfire on you, and become the burden you seek to avoid. You have to be VERY VERY VERY VERY careful in what you do, because if there is one thing humans, every pretty dumb ones, are great at is stumbling on workarounds.

I'm an optimist, for sure!

Overcoming the inertia and business incentives that currently favor walled gardens will likely require regulatory action, as happened with telecom. Hopefully lawmakers are able to develop smart, pro-competition policies that move us toward more universal, seamless communication while still allowing space for ongoing innovation. Achieving the right balance is tricky but has huge potential upside for consumers if done well.

There's always scope for politicians to mess things up, of course.  Shouldn't stop us setting expectations, though.  What are we paying those guys for???   :D
3G cellular started with massive walled gardens, and they fell away without any regulation. They just made 3G so ******* useless, the uptake was horrible. As soon as someone broke ranks and tried to get some business with a "straightforward access to the internet" model, everyone else had to fall in line, or see their huge investments in networks go to waste.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on September 22, 2023, 09:52:38 am
Sonos servers down, not working, or all music services disappeared? You're not alone, issue acknowledged: https://piunikaweb.com/2023/09/21/sonos-servers-down-not-working-or-music-services-disappeared/

Bonus fact: Sonos removed the feature to stream music locally from your Android device in May 2023.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on September 29, 2023, 09:15:52 am
First numbers on the impact of Microsoft's cloud signing key disaster:
- Chinese hackers stole emails from US State Dept in Microsoft breach, Senate staffer says (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/chinese-hackers-stole-60000-emails-us-state-department-microsoft-hack-senate-2023-09-27/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/chinese-hackers-stole-60000-emails-us-state-department-microsoft-hack-senate-2023-09-27/))

60k emails of 10 State Department accounts copied. It's just the tip of the iceberg as there are about 25 affected organizations.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on September 30, 2023, 06:30:30 am
To that end, in late 2024 we will wind down the Jamboard whiteboarding app as well as continue with the previously planned end of support for Google Jamboard devices.

https://workspace.google.com/blog/product-announcements/next-phase-digital-whiteboarding (https://workspace.google.com/blog/product-announcements/next-phase-digital-whiteboarding)

When a device reaches Auto Update Expiration (AUE), it means that the product model is considered obsolete and automatic software updates from Google are no longer guaranteed.

https://support.google.com/a/answer/7374455 (https://support.google.com/a/answer/7374455)

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: PlainName on September 30, 2023, 08:39:58 am
I don't see the problem with that Google jamboard thing. They are simply saying they're not going to support it after that date. AFAICS they aren't saying they will brick it on that date and prevent it working, so you can keep using it as-is until the hardware disssolves or something. That's massively better than, say, Windows where Microsoft are doing their best to fuck over W7 users, or Sonos where they deliberately prevent the perfectly good things from working at all.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on November 27, 2023, 12:57:28 pm
In case you use Google Drive:
- Google Drive files suddenly disappeared. The Drive literally went back to condition in May 2023 (https://support.google.com/drive/thread/245055606/google-drive-files-suddenly-disappeared-the-drive-literally-went-back-to-condition-in-may-2023?hl=en (https://support.google.com/drive/thread/245055606/google-drive-files-suddenly-disappeared-the-drive-literally-went-back-to-condition-in-may-2023?hl=en))

From the support team:
Quote
I am continously tracking this case and to be transparent with you we totally agree now that you are not the only customer affected by this behavior.

EDIT:
The URL above has vansihed into thin air but there's still some media coverage:
- Some Google Drive for Desktop users are missing months of files (https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/27/23978591/google-drive-desktop-data-loss-bug-files-missing-investigation (https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/27/23978591/google-drive-desktop-data-loss-bug-files-missing-investigation))
- Google Drive users say Google lost their files; Google is investigating (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/11/google-drive-is-investigating-sync-issues-as-users-complain-of-lost-files/ (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/11/google-drive-is-investigating-sync-issues-as-users-complain-of-lost-files/))
- Google Drive misplaces months' worth of customer files (https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/27/google_drive_files_disappearing/ (https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/27/google_drive_files_disappearing/))
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: SilverSolder on December 01, 2023, 12:09:27 pm
In case you use Google Drive:
- Google Drive files suddenly disappeared. The Drive literally went back to condition in May 2023 (https://support.google.com/drive/thread/245055606/google-drive-files-suddenly-disappeared-the-drive-literally-went-back-to-condition-in-may-2023?hl=en)

From the support team:
Quote
I am continously tracking this case and to be transparent with you we totally agree now that you are not the only customer affected by this behavior.

Sounds like they had an issue and had to restore from an earlier backup?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Jeroen3 on December 01, 2023, 01:10:13 pm
"This page is no longer available"  :-DD
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on December 01, 2023, 01:34:30 pm
In case you use Google Drive:
- Google Drive files suddenly disappeared. The Drive literally went back to condition in May 2023 (https://support.google.com/drive/thread/245055606/google-drive-files-suddenly-disappeared-the-drive-literally-went-back-to-condition-in-may-2023?hl=en)

From the support team:
Quote
I am continously tracking this case and to be transparent with you we totally agree now that you are not the only customer affected by this behavior.

Sounds like they had an issue and had to restore from an earlier backup?
It would be fun if a bank did that. :)
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on December 01, 2023, 02:15:46 pm
"This page is no longer available"  :-DD

What a surprise! >:D I've updated my post with URLs of some media reports. Google's offical response on this issue: https://support.google.com/drive/thread/245861992/drive-for-desktop-v84-0-0-0-84-0-4-0-sync-issue
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on December 03, 2023, 09:20:18 am
As of 31 December 2023, due to our content licensing arrangements with content providers,
you will no longer be able to watch any of your previously purchased Discovery content and
the content will be removed from your video library.

We sincerely thank you for your continued support.


https://www.playstation.com/en-us/legal/psvideocontent/ (https://www.playstation.com/en-us/legal/psvideocontent/)

Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on December 03, 2023, 09:22:16 am
"If buying doesn’t mean ownership,
then pirating isn’t stealing."


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: audiotubes on December 03, 2023, 04:45:22 pm
I didn't read the whole thread so maybe it was said already. But, maybe the worst part of cloud is the intentional enablement of endless blame-shifting.

For example last year I had to file some papework with a law office which we did business with for more than 5 years. The most recent time, they asked me to upload it to a cloud provider.

I looked into the provider and asked one of the experts in my office who deals daily with webapp security and he identified some serious security issues with the provider's setup. I notified the law office and they dismissed my concern and his very specific and direct points as politely as they could.

Then a smart guy in my office said, "Probably, they don't care. The main thing is when something goes wrong now, it won't be their fault." I checked that idea with another lawyer and he confirmed the suspicion.

I expect things to get a lot worse in this regard and not get better.

In the end, I refused to use the cloud service and sent them the documents directly. But I don't know long I'll get away with that old-fashioned approach and I have no idea if the next thing they did was upload everything I sent, to their cloud provider...

Well, at least I have the emails where we objected and warned them.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on February 09, 2024, 12:36:51 pm
This time it's Amazon's Echo Connect: https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonecho/comments/1am1e2b/echo_connect_discontinued/. (https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonecho/comments/1am1e2b/echo_connect_discontinued/.) Affected users can get a gift card with a value of 10 bucks for their 'inconvenience'. E-waste after just 5 years.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: tom66 on February 09, 2024, 12:41:10 pm
The other half purchased a Ring doorbell a few years back.  I think it was £40 up-front, and the subscription for the "premium" features was £25 a year, which wasn't too bad.  It's now gone up to £50 a year for the same functions, mad inflation that!   It's getting binned and replaced with a PoE smart doorbell.  I really cannot stand this crap from companies any more.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: Karel on March 25, 2024, 06:29:39 pm
Gigaset Smart Home/Care discontinues its services as of 29 March 2024

The cloud services of the Smart Home/Care products must therefore be discontinued as of 29 March 2024.
As a result, the apps for the Smart Home/Care products and the networked sensors and devices will no longer be usable.

We regret the inconvenience caused by this decision.


https://www.gigaset.com/hq_en/cms/smart-home-overview.html (https://www.gigaset.com/hq_en/cms/smart-home-overview.html)


Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on March 25, 2024, 06:40:05 pm
Gigaset went bankrupt and was bought by VTech in January, IIRC.
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: coppice on March 25, 2024, 06:40:54 pm
Gigaset went bankrupt and was bought by VTech in January, IIRC.
Was Gigaset spun out from Siemens?
Title: Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
Post by: madires on March 25, 2024, 06:52:37 pm
Yep, that's right! BTW, Vtech also owns Snom (VoIP telephones).