Author Topic: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...  (Read 9196 times)

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Offline BravoV

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... even you're totally innocent, its like you're cursed just because you're born at the other wrong side of the pond.

-> Adobe is cutting off users in Venezuela due to US sanctions

« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 01:18:54 pm by BravoV »
 
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Offline daqq

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And yet there still are people who are OK with eagle being moved to a subscription only system.  :palm:
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Online SiliconWizard

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That makes the landlords of the 21st century. Software landlords. Everything is rented.
 
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Offline BravoV

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That makes the landlords of the 21st century. Software landlords. Everything is rented.

Nope, this is even much worst that renting as in real estate deal, according to the details, even you just paid the rent yesterday, by tomorrow you will be kicked out, and no refund at all.

I guess this time, the reborn of so called new wave of "W4r3z" is imminent, as this is more political rather than just freebies.

Geez... almost forgot that "W" words as its so 90s .  :-DD

Offline BravoV

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And yet there still are people who are OK with eagle being moved to a subscription only system.  :palm:

I guess those people never had a chance to imagine, that one day, suddenly they lost their access to their hard worked circuit or pcb designs, just because a leader of a country said so.

Yep, even they're stored locally, as the need to be onlined in order to launch the program, means nothing to prevent the software to lock down all your files once it successfully contacted the mothership.  :-DD

Online SiliconWizard

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That makes the landlords of the 21st century. Software landlords. Everything is rented.

Nope, this is even much worst that renting as in real estate deal, according to the details, even you just paid the rent yesterday, by tomorrow you will be kicked out, and no refund at all.

Well, the idea is the same, but yes this is currently "worse" as there are general laws that protect real estate renters, whereas the laws that protect customers in general are a bit less favorable.

But the fact that "rent" is slowly becoming the only, or at least predominant sales model, is definitely concerning.
 

Offline Karel

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I'm curious to see if Autodesk (Eagle) is going to be affected...
 

Offline BravoV

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I'm curious to see if Autodesk (Eagle) is going to be affected...

Your innocent question there is no different to ..

... "Does WannaCry ransomware author will not abuse the newly version of his/her work that already infected many computers ?"  >:D

Offline dferyance

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The move towards cloud services has multiple causes. There are software companies (e.g. Adobe) trying to push software as a service on their customers. However, the customers themselves often are driving this move too.

Say you know of some useful program for your organization that cost $5K. Well, you need to get management approval, IT approval, order equipment to run it and that is a lot of red tape. Or you can find a cloud service for $100 a month that will go on your company credit card and bypass all those approvals. So software providers feel like they have to provide cloud services to be competitive.

What is difficult is the red tape of going through management and IT is important and necessary. Is the system secure? Are backups in place? How is their technical support when something doesn't work? How do we get our data if they shut down? Do they integrate with our user account management? All this gets bypassed. I've seen this happen where different departments all order different cloud services -- often ones that do the same thing -- with no regard for security or the long-term. But because they can slip it under the radar it happens. When an employee is terminated are they removed from all the different cloud-service accounts... maybe. Sometimes IT is the cause too. It is easy to justify signing up for a cloud service that has no big upfront investment than it is to order a system that is good for long term. IT expenses can be high and so there is pressure to go cheap -- at least cheap for the short term.
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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One of the many reasons I absolutely hate the subscription model.  You are at the mercy of the provider and it can be yanked at any time.  I'm a big fan of ownership (or as close as you can get to it at least).  Same with my home I would never want to rent.  If I started a business with a store front or shop or whatever I'd want to own too. Gives me more control and I'm not at the mercy of anyone when it comes to things like repairs or improvements etc nor do I need to worry about being evicted for any reason.  (ex: they want to tear it down)

Unfortunately it seems everything is moving to cloud now and it will get harder and harder to resist.   Even things that arn't necessarily cloud based still require you to make an account and have the product tied to some cloud.  Game consoles for example are all like that now.   Even Gopros and DJI drones and lot of similar products.   Pisses me off, there's no technical reason for it to require that.  It's just done to track you.
 

Online Fungus

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It was never supposed to "work" for the users....  :popcorn:
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Not being able to refund due to the order is obviously bullshit. If they can provide services or a "grace period" until October 28 they can definitely refund before the order goes into full effect. They're just conveniently waiting for the door to fall shut and then claim they can't do anything because it's locked now. The whole Adobe cloud thing isn't a great experience to begin with but this just emphasises it's best avoided even when you do have access. It's not as if the software has been developed much the past 5 to 10 years anyway. History teaches us this kind of overconfidence ends up costing you your market dominance so good riddance.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 04:37:11 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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I've decided to ditch Adobe and buy software I own instead. Paint Shop Pro can work with .PSD files and happens to be on sale with the Humble Bundle right now. Bye Adobe!

https://www.humblebundle.com/software/painter-create-with-confidence
 

Online sokoloff

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I don’t work at adobe or have any other ties, but I’m quite sure Adobe doesn’t care about one month’s revenue from the entire country of Venezuela.

It’s important to realize that large companies are not single, unified brain organisms. A lot of what looks dumb from the outside is not out of malice but rather out of the inherent lack of coordination inside multi-national, tens of thousands of employees organizations.

There is almost surely no devious master plan to screw these users out of an extra month of subscription revenue. 
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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I don’t work at adobe or have any other ties, but I’m quite sure Adobe doesn’t care about one month’s revenue from the entire country of Venezuela.

It’s important to realize that large companies are not single, unified brain organisms. A lot of what looks dumb from the outside is not out of malice but rather out of the inherent lack of coordination inside multi-national, tens of thousands of employees organizations.

There is almost surely no devious master plan to screw these users out of an extra month of subscription revenue.
Malicious indifference is possibly even worse. Like you I doubt that Adobe cares about those subscription fees but they don't seem to make any effort to say goodbye to their customers appropriately. It's a shoddy situation anyway but this is akin to booting your paying customers out with an insult.
 

Offline Rick Law

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The move towards cloud services has multiple causes. There are software companies (e.g. Adobe) trying to push software as a service on their customers. However, the customers themselves often are driving this move too.

Say you know of some useful program for your organization that cost $5K. Well, you need to get management approval, IT approval, order equipment to run it and that is a lot of red tape. Or you can find a cloud service for $100 a month that will go on your company credit card and bypass all those approvals. So software providers feel like they have to provide cloud services to be competitive.

What is difficult is the red tape of going through management and IT is important and necessary. Is the system secure? Are backups in place? How is their technical support when something doesn't work? How do we get our data if they shut down? Do they integrate with our user account management? All this gets bypassed. I've seen this happen where different departments all order different cloud services -- often ones that do the same thing -- with no regard for security or the long-term. But because they can slip it under the radar it happens. When an employee is terminated are they removed from all the different cloud-service accounts... maybe. Sometimes IT is the cause too. It is easy to justify signing up for a cloud service that has no big upfront investment than it is to order a system that is good for long term. IT expenses can be high and so there is pressure to go cheap -- at least cheap for the short term.

I don't have the current data for it, but based on circumstantial evidence ($) I guess the bigger pusher of clouds in business is IT departments itself and the reason is money.

Google can "sell" gmail at such low cost that IT departments cannot possibly match.  How would a CIO justify a budget of X for email to the CFO or CEO?  Email is but one, then there is Office 365, there is Cloud based HR, Cloud based Sales/Marketing, Cloud based ERP...

Clouds is in a way like outsourcing program development.  The benefits are immediate and visible but the problems and real cost are hidden and on delayed trigger.  If you ask Boeing how much the 737-Max software problem costs, they can't even answer it because the cost is still increasing.

As bad as this is for development, manufacturing is affected too.  A factory could be running on some machines requiring some connection to the cloud.  IoT is increasing that potential issue is increasing every product cycle - as more and more equipment and manufacturers are jumping into the Cloud+IoT band wagon using services like Microsoft Azure IoT Cloud and others.  Just think about all the PLCs in a factory (for lack of a better term) with it's balls in someone else's hand.

Even consumers are affected too.

FDA (US Federal Food and Drug Admin) Cyber Security warning re Medtronic MiniMed Insulin Pumps potential cybersecurity risks issued June, 2019 - In the list of do's and dont's... do not share your insulin pump serial number.

Microsoft will shutdown its HealthVault service come November.  What happens to your Blood Pressure Monitor data?  While I am sure the cloud service supplier will assist the manufacturers in transition to their next version stuff, but that no doubt costs would be > 0.  End users needing such connection would just have to buy the next model and that cost would also be > 0 also.

I am waiting for the News paper headline - John Doe is convicted of murder by hacking into his wife's car and remote driven it into the waterfall.

I am sure Cloud-based sex robot is but just another product cycle away.  A user of Sex Bot - The Next Generation who has a certain body parts inexplicably caught within the bot will get an automated call from the ransom-ware: Hey, want to keep it?  Click here to send money or you loose that forever.

Clouds/IoT has its use, but if you don't need it, don't add on additional layer of potential show-stopper.  I hope, may be in a few years, more and more users will see the light and kill this idea of Cloud and this IoT for everything madness.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 05:44:25 pm by Rick Law »
 
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Adobe is cutting off users in Venezuela due to US sanctions

Can't they use a VPN?
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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I am sure Cloud-based sex robot is but just another product cycle away.  A user of Sex Bot - The Next Generation who has a certain body parts inexplicably caught within the bot will get an automated call from the ransom-ware: Hey, want to keep it?  Click here to send money or you loose that forever.

*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 

Online wraper

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Adobe is cutting off users in Venezuela due to US sanctions

Can't they use a VPN?
They can. However old accounts will be axed regardless. The same thing happened with Crimea a few years ago. US based registrars started axing domains registered with Crimean credentials.
EDIT: also they will likely have trouble to pay for service.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 05:57:57 pm by wraper »
 

Online blueskull

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I always buy full licenses. I just don't feel comfortable to have essentially my money controlled by someone else, and something bas simple as a network outage bricks my software.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Note that you could also be screwed with full licenses if the software uses some kind of online activation. If a regular check is required by your particular software, and the server gets permanently unaccessible, you could get eventually "kicked out".
 

Online blueskull

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Note that you could also be screwed with full licenses if the software uses some kind of online activation. If a regular check is required by your particular software, and the server gets permanently unaccessible, you could get eventually "kicked out".

Yes, but many software I use have permanent activation (Windows and Office have 180 day activation period only with VLK licenses, for RTL licenses they are permanent, some compilers and CAD tools are file-based license).

Only some FPGA tools are floating, but I didn't pay for them, so I'll let them slip in.
 

Offline daqq

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Adobe is cutting off users in Venezuela due to US sanctions

Can't they use a VPN?
That's not exactly the point. While I'm sure people could jury rig some awful system that would eventually enable them to use and pay for said software (or just use a crack), the point is that you are essentially renting your core tools and at the end of the day and are subject to the whims too many people/institutions.

This is even different from previous restrictions/embargoes - if you buy a CNC machine, a pick an place machine or even a hammer, you continue to own and be able to use said tool. All the time you have invested in it will not go to waste.

The situation is different with software tools. So, let's take software like Eagle, you've built up a cool bunch of libraries and the past few years of your work continues to make dozens of (mostly) local customers happy are sitting happily on some cloud*. Whoops, one of your politicians said something insulting (but hilarious) about an orange man, or any other of a dozen political situations comes up, the situation gets messier up goes the sanction. Or for that matter your ISP provider had a drunk a admin get really disgruntled and the net will be down for a week or two*.

Using a cloud and/or internet access mandatory system essentially means that you are giving up a surety for no gain for you.

* - yes, I know, some software is offline-ish, and has a local cache that enables you to work without access to the net... for a while.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 07:03:23 pm by daqq »
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Offline Brumby

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I don't like the idea of anything outside of my immediate control having the potential to affect my ability to do work.

I avoid subscription service options whenever possible.  At this point, I have a 100% success rate.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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That an app is a web page does NOT necessarily mean it can't be run offline. EasyEDA for example, they give you the app so that you can run it locally if you wish. Just have to open it and point your browser to a local port instead, where the app is listening. And it works very well!
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Offline Brumby

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That's all fine - so long as there isn't some server-side dependency.  Then you're stuffed.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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It's the same for programs that you "buy" but check the license online...
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Offline Halcyon

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I can see businesses (and individuals) turning their backs on the whole "cloud" model as instances increase of companies just turning their backs on customers, going bust, being bought out, discontinuing products etc... If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up. This is just the modern-day equivalent of software which phones home just to run, install or activate or relies on a physical dongle with a time restriction.

Consumers are slowly realising that they have lost control (and in some cases, ownership) of their data and software purchases. For example, I switched from Microsoft Office to LibreOffice the moment I needed any sort of online account just to type a letter or activate the software.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 10:03:32 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline Brumby

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If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.
 
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Offline daqq

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I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.
There are things that I use it for - as a backup solution and a sync between computers it simplifies things... but is not critical and can easily be replaced should the company in question go belly up. I don't mind cloud applications that by definition need a cloud, such as syncing devices, offsite storage and similar. But a professional application to be cloud and cloud only and need to call home every week or so to ? No thanks.
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Offline BravoV

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But a professional application to be cloud and cloud only and need to call home every week or so to ? No thanks.

Btw, even worst, your OS.

For example Windows 10  -> Windows 10 users fume: Microsoft, where's our 'local account' option gone?  :palm:

Its starting and it seems like Microsoft is testing the ground of acceptance, slowly.

There is no way I will surrender the local admin account, this means only one thing, surrender your ownership, power and control over your own computer.

Its easy to imagine one day, you turned on your computer and suddenly your OS tells you that you are no longer can use your computer, access your files and all are locked, just because a dude which happened to be another country's leader said so.  :wtf: :rant:

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Gives me more control and I'm not at the mercy of anyone when it comes to things like repairs or improvements etc nor do I need to worry about being evicted for any reason.  (ex: they want to tear it down)

Canada doesn't have something similar to the U.S. concept of eminent domain?
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Ownership is good, but is only a partial/weak solution.  I have any number of useful programs from the 90s that won't run under current OS.  So I have to maintain an old OS.  If hardware fails under them I am then trying to re-install old OS, but activation mechanism may not exist any longer.  So far I have been able to keep most of them alive, but it continues to get harder and harder.
 

Online bd139

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Uninstalled Fusion 360. Back to FreeCAD.

If you think this is all bad consider someone like Amazon. You build your product on their equipment with their services. There is no escape the moment you pull that first non IaaS component in.
 

Offline hendorog

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Uninstalled Fusion 360. Back to FreeCAD.

If you think this is all bad consider someone like Amazon. You build your product on their equipment with their services. There is no escape the moment you pull that first non IaaS component in.

No escape _without some porting effort_

Which is the same as it has always been. Round and round we go.
 

Online bd139

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I know someone who tried to port their stuff away from just S3 due to escalating costs. Not as easy as it looks. Things like Redshift are even worse. Then there’s the predatory SQL server pricing on Azure vs AWS for example.

I only recommend fully portable IaaS.

Watch this space. Literally I’m betting my future on “unclouding” businesses.  :-DD
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 07:03:25 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline hendorog

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I know someone who tried to port their stuff away from just S3 due to escalating costs. Not as easy as it looks. Things like Redshift are even worse.

Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.



 

Offline Rick Law

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I always buy full licenses. I just don't feel comfortable to have essentially my money controlled by someone else, and something bas simple as a network outage bricks my software.

Note that you could also be screwed with full licenses if the software uses some kind of online activation. If a regular check is required by your particular software, and the server gets permanently unaccessible, you could get eventually "kicked out".

Full version/license doesn't always help.  They have ways and that is what killed my Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 software.  At over $1K, it was a lot to spend for a hobby but I had a lot of baby videos to edit and wanted to make them well, so I got full feature version and with full license, phone activated with a key and all that.

Each time I swap disc or memory, it asked for reactivation.  I use the key code and all is well.

One day, it asked me to re-activate, probably acted on some date-driven parameter.  So, I reentered the key code.  This time, the same key code no longer work and force an on-line re-activation.  The on-line reactivation URL no longer function, the phone number no longer worked...  I called the main number... so on so on and each time they just suggest I should buy another full license for the latest version.  All my edited segment stored in the V1.5 format was lost.  I later found a way to use the "trial mode" to run the old version for a limited time to export.  By then, I totally lost my confidence and interest in Adobe products.

Another video package from a different company of the same era (Visual Communicator) ran into a similar but different issue.  One day, the fully licensed and activated software displays a "I am expired - reactivation required" message.  I followed the link, download the upgrade, paid for a new key code for the newer version (V2, if I recalled correctly).  Ok, the new install said it can't until after I delete V1 and say "click OK to delete".  So I did, and it begin the V2 install - one screen later, it said "it can't upgrade because I don't have an activated V1 on the system to upgrade"...  Again, phone call loop that went no where...  I ended up without a working version of V1 or V2.

I came to think of on-line activation as evil.

The last time I purchased a package requiring activation, I paid in full and then went on line to find a crack.  I have the full menu, the full set of DVD, but I run the cracked version instead.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 07:25:34 pm by Rick Law »
 
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Offline windsmurf

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If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.

Welcome to EEVBLOG Forums, a Cloud-based service.
 
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Offline dferyance

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I know someone who tried to port their stuff away from just S3 due to escalating costs. Not as easy as it looks. Things like Redshift are even worse.

One particular challenge with AWS and other cloud services is they make it very easy and enticing to adopt more and more of their services. Projects often end up with ties to a large number of vendor-specific services. This is even worse with microservice architectures in that each microservice team will adopt whatever services they like. You no longer have the problem of being tied to a vendor-specific service, but that you are tied to all of the vendor-specific services. I've even seen the split where some teams were using GCP and some were AWS. So we were tied to all of multiple vendor's services.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.
The problem is that the cost of cloud services is often delayed or hidden and you're up to your neck when you finally figure it out. The up front cost of traditional setups is what makes the cloud stuff look interesting.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.

Welcome to EEVBLOG Forums, a Cloud-based service.

Sure, however if the forum closed tomorrow, we can all go about our work and personal lives without a problem. It wouldn't have a "critical" impact on anyone. The internet is transient, hell even before the internet, BBSs would open up, close down etc...

Personally, for all things storage/backup/syncing, I use a completely self-hosted solution. Yes, it involves an initial cost in building servers and infrastructure, but even when the internet is out (which in Australia is transient itself thanks to the NBN), I have full and complete access to everything including the movies and TV shows I enjoy watching.

Once I upgrade the memory in one of my servers this weekend, I will be building my own "cloud" solution based on NextCloud so I'll essentially have my own version of Google G-Suite except where I have complete control of the data.

 

Offline hendorog

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Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.
The problem is that the cost of cloud services is often delayed or hidden and you're up to your neck when you finally figure it out. The up front cost of traditional setups is what makes the cloud stuff look interesting.

I agree people are caught out, and I have been once. But in general the information is there and just requires the effort of calculating it out.

The traditional stuff requires ongoing expenditure, and that is often overlooked too. And local services are more likely to suffer from resource contention.

Have you had to wait for IT to provision a development server? (Yes, months. In one company it needed to be planned a year ahead and even then it was delayed)
Had to wait for AWS to provision a development server? (Yes, at least 5 minutes)

There is no silver bullet. No news to anyone with common sense, but that means cloud services have their place. An unpopular opinion here of course. Maybe its the lead.  :popcorn:
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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But a professional application to be cloud and cloud only and need to call home every week or so to ? No thanks.

Btw, even worst, your OS.

For example Windows 10  -> Windows 10 users fume: Microsoft, where's our 'local account' option gone?  :palm:

Its starting and it seems like Microsoft is testing the ground of acceptance, slowly.

There is no way I will surrender the local admin account, this means only one thing, surrender your ownership, power and control over your own computer.

Its easy to imagine one day, you turned on your computer and suddenly your OS tells you that you are no longer can use your computer, access your files and all are locked, just because a dude which happened to be another country's leader said so.  :wtf: :rant:

Yeah I saw this crap coming when windows 8 started to do the "live account" crap.  That's around the time I switched to Linux.  I absolutely cannot fathom the idea of giving that much control of my computer to a 3rd party.  Unfortunately, the general public don't care, so that is really the direction things are going to go.  I bet next version of Windows will be completely cloud based.   Your login, everything, will be in the cloud.   Windows 10 is already basically a SAS model.  It may be installed locally, but MS has pretty much full control of it. 
 
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Offline james_s

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Unfortunately it seems everything is moving to cloud now and it will get harder and harder to resist.   Even things that arn't necessarily cloud based still require you to make an account and have the product tied to some cloud.  Game consoles for example are all like that now.   Even Gopros and DJI drones and lot of similar products.   Pisses me off, there's no technical reason for it to require that.  It's just done to track you.

The pendulum is swinging that way for now, but this has happened before. Mainframes and dumb terminals were all the rage at one point, then PCs got more powerful. It's not entirely unlikely that people will eventually rediscover the PC and all the benefits it has over cloud based.

Another thing to consider, computers and software as a whole are becoming mature, consider the latest version of MS Office vs the version from 25 years ago, a quarter century and yet for a huge majority of people Office '95 would probably do everything they need. Unless all these subscription products are able to keep finding new ways to stay ahead, the slow but steady march of FOSS tools continues to improve their quality. Today on my personal laptop I use LibreOffice even though I own a legal copy of MS Office simply because I couldn't be bothered to dig out my installation disc. I use KiCAD for developing PCBs, Inkscape for designing front panels and signs, GIMP for editing photos, Audacity for audio editing, and various other tools. All this free stuff is only getting better, in most cases one is not really forced to subscribe to cloud based offerings.
 
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Offline daqq

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If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.

Welcome to EEVBLOG Forums, a Cloud-based service.
There's a bit of a difference - a forum, by definition, needs an internet connection (or a different connection to other computers) to exist. Also, it's hardly critical to our work. If Dave starts charging money for being here, or does something other that I'm not comfortable with I just bugger off. Or if he decides to end the forum, because reasons, well, sad, but been there, done that.

The other difference is that when I signed up I knew that this was a possibility. Same goes for google drive. Unlike eagle, which changed to subscription+cloud after, what, 30 years?
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Offline Brumby

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If you didn't see this was a bad idea 10 years ago, time to wake up.
I saw it as a bad idea from the very beginning.  I have never been tempted by Cloud anything.

Welcome to EEVBLOG Forums, a Cloud-based service.

Sure, however if the forum closed tomorrow, we can all go about our work and personal lives without a problem. It wouldn't have a "critical" impact on anyone.

PRECISELY.  (If we discount the psychological impact...  :scared: )


Quote
Personally, for all things storage/backup/syncing, I use a completely self-hosted solution. Yes, it involves an initial cost in building servers and infrastructure, but even when the internet is out (which in Australia is transient itself thanks to the NBN), I have full and complete access to everything including the movies and TV shows I enjoy watching.

Once I upgrade the memory in one of my servers this weekend, I will be building my own "cloud" solution based on NextCloud so I'll essentially have my own version of Google G-Suite except where I have complete control of the data.
In addition to your access to your data, there is a small matter of security from others accessing your data.  You are - quite literally - handing over your data to an entity that says "Trust me" ... and you have no physical control over that data.

I've gone out and acquired an old HP microserver and populated two bays to have that control.
 

Offline daqq

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Quote
You are - quite literally - handing over your data to an entity that says "Trust me" ... and you have no physical control over that data.
The solution to this is storing everything you need synced in a big encrypted archive :) If there's an entity out there desperate enough for my awful hacked together code that they'll brute force AES256, well, good for them. Yes, it's a bit of laziness on my part, but said data is not as sensitive.
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Online bd139

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Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.
The problem is that the cost of cloud services is often delayed or hidden and you're up to your neck when you finally figure it out. The up front cost of traditional setups is what makes the cloud stuff look interesting.

I agree people are caught out, and I have been once. But in general the information is there and just requires the effort of calculating it out.

The traditional stuff requires ongoing expenditure, and that is often overlooked too. And local services are more likely to suffer from resource contention.

Have you had to wait for IT to provision a development server? (Yes, months. In one company it needed to be planned a year ahead and even then it was delayed)
Had to wait for AWS to provision a development server? (Yes, at least 5 minutes)

There is no silver bullet. No news to anyone with common sense, but that means cloud services have their place. An unpopular opinion here of course. Maybe its the lead.  :popcorn:


Ahh the "AWS 5 minute myth", forgetting:

1. Security. Yeah lets just stick an RDP server on an EIP and leave it there for everyone on the Internet.
2. Patching. Yeah lets stick an unpatched AMI we found in the AWS rotten old shit store on our EC2 instance.
3. Availability. Yeah lets stick it in one AZ and watch it disappear one afternoon with all the ephemeral data because we don't understand AWS architecture leading to two days of downtime until the guy who set it all up comes back from holiday in a jungle with no phone reception.
4. Billing. Yeah lets roll out an instance we don't understand the costing of properly and get a nasty shock at the end of the billing cycle.
5. Latency and poor performance. Yeah lets find out the hard way that the thing lags like shit compared to in house hardware which doesn't share the cache and cores with a hacked AWS account running BTC mining.
6. Hidden IO problems. Yeah lets find out the hard way that AWS IOPS is provisioned differently depending on instance and storage size and actually a shitty old no brand SATA SSD in a desktop PC in the office has better IO throughput.
7. Exit. Yeah how do we get this turd out of AWS when the IT team tell us all the above was done wrong?

When you understand these, an AWS 5 minute job turns into a planning process.

The cloud is not a panacea; it's someone else's computer. The usual concerns are all still there just called different names and hiding under marketing.

Also who the fuck runs a dev server in 2019? What do you do on it. Last time I saw that it was a crazy company running their entire development team off an SMB share and using a physical wooden spoon as version control. You couldn't change the code, via windiff, unless you had the spoon.
 
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Offline hendorog

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Yep -some services will be harder than others, and costs will vary. I could take your exact sentence and replace S3 with Oracle or IBM Message Broker or Websphere or DB2 or an AS/400 or Microsoft Exchange, and it would be just as true.

The point is that right now there are plenty of similar enough cloud services out there, and also on premise options. If the decision is made to shift either onto a cloud service, or off, then consideration to the costs and practicalities should be given.
The problem is that the cost of cloud services is often delayed or hidden and you're up to your neck when you finally figure it out. The up front cost of traditional setups is what makes the cloud stuff look interesting.

I agree people are caught out, and I have been once. But in general the information is there and just requires the effort of calculating it out.

The traditional stuff requires ongoing expenditure, and that is often overlooked too. And local services are more likely to suffer from resource contention.

Have you had to wait for IT to provision a development server? (Yes, months. In one company it needed to be planned a year ahead and even then it was delayed)
Had to wait for AWS to provision a development server? (Yes, at least 5 minutes)

There is no silver bullet. No news to anyone with common sense, but that means cloud services have their place. An unpopular opinion here of course. Maybe its the lead.  :popcorn:


Ahh the "AWS 5 minute myth", forgetting:

1. Security. Yeah lets just stick an RDP server on an EIP and leave it there for everyone on the Internet.
2. Patching. Yeah lets stick an unpatched AMI we found in the AWS rotten old shit store on our EC2 instance.
3. Availability. Yeah lets stick it in one AZ and watch it disappear one afternoon with all the ephemeral data because we don't understand AWS architecture leading to two days of downtime until the guy who set it all up comes back from holiday in a jungle with no phone reception.
4. Billing. Yeah lets roll out an instance we don't understand the costing of properly and get a nasty shock at the end of the billing cycle.
5. Latency and poor performance. Yeah lets find out the hard way that the thing lags like shit compared to in house hardware which doesn't share the cache and cores with a hacked AWS account running BTC mining.
6. Hidden IO problems. Yeah lets find out the hard way that AWS IOPS is provisioned differently depending on instance and storage size and actually a shitty old no brand SATA SSD in a desktop PC in the office has better IO throughput.
7. Exit. Yeah how do we get this turd out of AWS when the IT team tell us all the above was done wrong?

When you understand these, an AWS 5 minute job turns into a planning process.

The cloud is not a panacea; it's someone else's computer. The usual concerns are all still there just called different names and hiding under marketing.

Also who the fuck runs a dev server in 2019? What do you do on it. Last time I saw that it was a crazy company running their entire development team off an SMB share and using a physical wooden spoon as version control. You couldn't change the code, via windiff, unless you had the spoon.

Good troll chap. If its not a troll then you need to broaden your thinking some. And read what I wrote, as you have misinterpreted it in an epic way.

Any sensible admin will know that they cannot plan for stuff they don't know about. Physical servers require advance planning. It gets worse if you put bloody minded managers in front of any request.
Any sensible developer will know they cannot move quickly if they need to give a different department a years warning to purchase servers and memory. So logically, you put admins and developers in the same team and benefit from both sets of experience and brains.

Your knee jerk reaction of "lets let anyone do anything" is not how it happens in the real world.

The 'IT team' are not there to tell developers what is right or wrong. Dev's and the admins are actually part of the same team, along with the business.

Sit down and have a serious think about how the a group could leverage the endless capacity of the cloud, while still satisfying the reasonable items in the issues you have listed above.


 
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Online bd139

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I run real world companies in AWS and am AWS cert. I run my own company in AWS. My point is perfectly valid and it is exactly how a lot of companies operate that I have directly experienced.

Putting developers and admins in the same team I agree with. It's called devops. And I agree about capacity planning but your argument wasn't about capacity planning, which is a solved problem, but about bureaucracy and using AWS to leverage an advantage in that space.

The IT team, if not the business, are a service function of a business and usually poorly funded and invested in and seen as a parasitic annoyance. That's where all the problems start. The cloud isn't a solution there. You have to fix the perception and the humans first.
 

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4. Billing. Yeah lets roll out an instance we don't understand the costing of properly and get a nasty shock at the end of the billing cycle.

Been there, done that!
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 
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Online bd139

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Me too  :-DD

My first "free tier" AWS bill was $300 because I stepped slightly off the path :palm:
 
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Offline madires

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As always, you have to figure out the pros and cons, and choose wisely. One benefit of cloud services is scalability as following example demonstrates: >:D
Sesame Street Store & Volusion customers are comprised; how the cookie monster is stealing credit card info.
https://blog.usejournal.com/sesame-street-volusion-customers-are-comprised-how-the-cookie-monster-is-stealing-cc-numbers-21eb51ec613b

Volusion uses Google's cloud to run over 6500 web shops. One hack and all shops are compromised.
 
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Yes, cloud services scale up very well when it comes to hacking. ;D
 

Offline hendorog

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I run real world companies in AWS and am AWS cert. I run my own company in AWS. My point is perfectly valid and it is exactly how a lot of companies operate that I have directly experienced.

Putting developers and admins in the same team I agree with. It's called devops. And I agree about capacity planning but your argument wasn't about capacity planning, which is a solved problem, but about bureaucracy and using AWS to leverage an advantage in that space.

The IT team, if not the business, are a service function of a business and usually poorly funded and invested in and seen as a parasitic annoyance. That's where all the problems start. The cloud isn't a solution there. You have to fix the perception and the humans first.

It sounds like we are on the same page. You are right, I was bundling DevOps in with the cloud model. Its just a smart way to get it done.


 
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Offline wnorcott

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And yet there still are people who are OK with eagle being moved to a subscription only system.  :palm:

I am grandfathered on an install-only version of Eagle and will be keeping that forever.  If my hard drive crashes, so be it.  That's what backups are for.
On very rare occasions, you might notice an odor or see a puff of smoke or sparks vent from your product.
 

Offline wnorcott

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Capitol One credit card company hosts their website on AWS and they got hacked by an Amazon insider, who managed to download personal and financial information of over 100 Million   Visa customers.   Think about that.   The fox is watching the chicken coop.

Lest you doubt the cloud merchants abuse their godlike powers, we are reading news stories daily that Alexa has Amazon employees on the other end eavesdropping on your private conversations inside your home.  Some even pay good money to have an Amazon doorbell that video records whoever is at your front door, so your visitors' comings and goings are on the cloud.
On very rare occasions, you might notice an odor or see a puff of smoke or sparks vent from your product.
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Personally if I need to host something internet facing on someone else's server I rather keep it as raw as possible vs going with a "cloud" provider like AWS.  Ex: a dedicated box at OVH, Softlayer or other such company.   Ideally I'd love to host all that stuff at my house but ISPs always seem to have that archaic "no servers" rule.  Most also don't provide static IPs.  Without static IP you can't do DNS properly.  Using a 3rd party service like no-ip is a hack. 

I do hate that I have to rely on the 3rd party provider but as long as I stick with a basic setup nothing stops me from re-uploading my local/backup copy to another provider if I get the rug pulled from under me.  Also don't like "elastic pricing" schemes.  I want a predictable bill with no surprises.
 



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Actually no!  :palm: 

I shall go and put the dunce hat on and sit in the corner :-DD
 
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Offline VK3DRB

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Never been comfortable with cloud based software. Altium is going more to it, especially with Altium 20 and the online review process that can only work with a subscription. Good in a way because it makes the pirates pay, and Altium investors very rich (if they had bought shares in 2011). But bad in another way because Altium is overpriced for small businesses or occasional users. And over priced in that it still has bugs and you are paying for them to be fixed by suscrption. But hey, it would not be the Altium we have come to know and love it didnb't lock up occasionally or the that memory violation error (and the fragmented user interface) .

Another reason I don't like cloud based software, is you lack autonomy and to some extent freedom. The Chinese Communist Party could order their companies to block any users who do not worship the regime, from accessing cloud based software.

The third reason is cloud based software is open to hacking or DOS attacks.   

The fourth reason, is latency. Anyone who has had to endure Atlassian's Jira will know what I mean :=\.
 
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Online bd139

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Ooooh yes JIRA cloud is just cancer.
 

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Online SiliconWizard

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The whole base concept behind the "cloud" is to make software and data access a "commodity" such as water (or for most, electricity) distribution: make everyone depend on large-scale, official services, and even eventually forbid anyone to use "unauthorized" distribution channels, including your own. May very well happen someday with data.

Has it not worked for water in the long term? It unfortunately looks like it has. And I'm sure many people were very wary about water distribution at the time it began to be handled by states and later, private companies.

And the same arguments are provided: ease of access, safety... (before centralized distribution, water was very unsafe and a major vector of disease... we could argue the same now with data due to hacking, viruses, integrity, etc.)

« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 03:44:11 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Online bd139

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Totally. There was an article posted a couple of days ago that I can't find now about "the death of files" and the migration of everything to "services". I still like my files. In fact I'm in the process of killing Apple Music at the moment slowly and methodically.
 

Offline james_s

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There's only one form of water out there, same with electricity, it's the same stuff no matter who you buy it from. Software on the other hand comes in a huge variety and cloud based software cannot be relied on not to change in arbitrary ways. I avoid it as much as possible.
 

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Offline VK3DRB

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Totally. There was an article posted a couple of days ago that I can't find now about "the death of files" and the migration of everything to "services". I still like my files. In fact I'm in the process of killing Apple Music at the moment slowly and methodically.

I won't bother with Apple Music. No point. Apple's engineers and programmers lost the ability to design decent products long ago. It started with the iTunes. The cloud and local content failed due to a poor user interface sitting in front of bloatware. If they went total cloud-based, it would be a debacle. Now Apple fanboys with their white worms hanging out of their ears are discovering they have a battery life of about 2 years at best, and it is impossible to replace the battery.
 

Online bd139

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To be fair I just replaced the battery in a 6s  :-//. Took about five minutes. A blind monkey could do it.

The point is the software ecosystem is a ball and chain.
 

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I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

Planned obsolescence - make things as fragile as possible, hard to replace wear parts (batteries, USB connectors, etc.), glass back as well as front just to ensure something breaks if dropped...   and of course, goad the majority into feeling important by replacing their phones every couple of years at a "reassuringly expensive" price...   The only place to be is a shareholder in that game!
 
 

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I don't think they're deliberately planned to fail, I've had enough jobs at companies that made hardware to have seen that it's usually just a case of longevity/repairability simply not being one of the design criteria. In the case of the airpods I'd assume they are designed to be as compact as possible and waterproof, the cost of that is that the batteries are small and cannot be replaced. I wouldn't buy them but plenty of people do. *shrug* It's their money.
 
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Now Apple fanboys with their white worms hanging out of their ears

 :-DD
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I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

You I wouldn’t but AirPods. Stupid idea. Disposable status symbols

https://youtu.be/o2IJaj3nUmU

I’ve got an XR and the screen is huge. Perfect for watching Netflix when you’re in the bath and using it as a sat nav. The notch isn’t a problem. It doesn’t obscure the content by default. It’s just used as a placeholder for the time and network and battery status. If you have banana fingers like me the extra screen estate is welcome. I really like the handset.

 
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Online bd139

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I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

Planned obsolescence - make things as fragile as possible, hard to replace wear parts (batteries, USB connectors, etc.), glass back as well as front just to ensure something breaks if dropped...   and of course, goad the majority into feeling important by replacing their phones every couple of years at a "reassuringly expensive" price...   The only place to be is a shareholder in that game!

Hardly. The batteries last an incredibly long amount of time, are replaceable. There are no USB connectors. Glass back you need for wireless charging and it’s not fragile. And if it is, meh AppleCare lol. I expect to get 18 months of life out of something like that. Well it turns out our oldest iPhone is 5 years old and still works  :-//.

People love to hate. Some of us love to just use the damn things and quit whining.

One thing that really gets me is a friend of mine who will never buy an iPhone because it’s too expensive but spends £700 a year on service for his Mercedes E class which is used to go to the supermarket and drop the kids off at school. Whiners. Whiners everywhere.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 07:02:46 am by bd139 »
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

Planned obsolescence - make things as fragile as possible, hard to replace wear parts (batteries, USB connectors, etc.), glass back as well as front just to ensure something breaks if dropped...   and of course, goad the majority into feeling important by replacing their phones every couple of years at a "reassuringly expensive" price...   The only place to be is a shareholder in that game!

Hardly. The batteries last an incredibly long amount of time, are replaceable. There are no USB connectors. Glass back you need for wireless charging and it’s not fragile. And if it is, meh AppleCare lol. I expect to get 18 months of life out of something like that. Well it turns out our oldest iPhone is 5 years old and still works  :-//.

People love to hate. Some of us love to just use the damn things and quit whining.

One thing that really gets me is a friend of mine who will never buy an iPhone because it’s too expensive but spends £700 a year on service for his Mercedes E class which is used to go to the supermarket and drop the kids off at school. Whiners. Whiners everywhere.

I do get what you are saying and I'm not really knocking Apple specifically for this -  and yes, their support is excellent in my experience.  Samsung et al have also made it harder to replace batteries and other wear items in their latest phones. 

Batteries have a finite number of cycles that they can tolerate being recharged, they are a wear item like brake pads on a car.  For me, they generally last 2-3 years before performance becomes unacceptable, with a daily recharge - irrespective of the type of device (laptop, phone, pad, whatever).  I have working devices here that are approaching 10 years old, LOL, would not be possible if batteries couldn't be replaced.  This is an environmental issue as much as anything else - why throw out a perfectly working item because you can't replace its battery??

The one thing that does irritate me about Apple specifically is the "barrier" to get data in and out of their products onto non-Apple devices, although Dropbox has done a lot to alleviate that.  With Android devices, just plug them in a USB port to get data off/on them, clean them up, or whatever you need to do.  Apple...  not so easy, and I haven't found a workaround, so I don't use them for anything serious.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 12:47:50 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Online bd139

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I just pay Apple to replace them usually. I’ve done a few myself and they’re not hard. Did a 5s a couple of months back for £6 here. Still works as if it was new.
 

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Sadly, the repairability trend is down -  https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability

Apple doesn't score too terribly, but not great.
 

Offline Rick Law

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...
You I wouldn’t but AirPods. Stupid idea. Disposable status symbols
...

The disposable part is what made it a status symbol.  You see, to the buyer, it is to demonstrate to the world: I can afford to waste money, and up yours with the environment.  I will throw out as much electronic waste as I like because I work at (select: Google, FaceBook, Apple, etc...) and I have money to burn...

I think he's talking about the airpods which are not a product I'm a fan of. The iPhones I've had generally good experience with however I won't buy one with a notch in the screen. I really don't understand the obsession with an edge to edge screen at all costs.

Planned obsolescence - make things as fragile as possible, hard to replace wear parts (batteries, USB connectors, etc.), glass back as well as front just to ensure something breaks if dropped...   and of course, goad the majority into feeling important by replacing their phones every couple of years at a "reassuringly expensive" price...   The only place to be is a shareholder in that game!

Hardly. The batteries last an incredibly long amount of time, are replaceable. There are no USB connectors. Glass back you need for wireless charging and it’s not fragile. And if it is, meh AppleCare lol. I expect to get 18 months of life out of something like that. Well it turns out our oldest iPhone is 5 years old and still works  :-//.

People love to hate. Some of us love to just use the damn things and quit whining.

One thing that really gets me is a friend of mine who will never buy an iPhone because it’s too expensive but spends £700 a year on service for his Mercedes E class which is used to go to the supermarket and drop the kids off at school. Whiners. Whiners everywhere.

I don't know about others but I personally don't hate glass-back and other silly things.  I just think they are stupid.  You don't need a glass back for wireless charging.  EM wave should go through plastic just fine.   Moto 6 doesn't do wireless charging but it uses a glass back.  I might have been interested in one but for the glass back.

Battery "lasting a long time" is relative.  It depends on your usage profile and what you consider "working."  Some would consider it EOL (end of life) at 80% original capacity.  Personally, I consider it working as long as it suits my purpose be it 20% of original capacity or 10%.
 

Online bd139

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To be fair the disposable nature of electronics is simply due to lack of Environmental legislation. US and China are worst at that
 

Offline bson

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Can't they use a VPN?
Adobe is prevented by law from doing business with the government of Venezuela or certain persons on a list maintained by the Secretary of the Treasury.  If those individuals or the government is suspected of using VPNs Adobe will blacklist all non-American VPN providers.  (American ones will be subject to the same laws.)  All non-American VPN providers will stop and think if the value of selling access to a bunch of criminals in Venezuela outweighs being blacklisted by just about every American business from Facebook and Google to Netflix is going to be worth it - because they will instantly lose 90% of their business if that happens.  If they run any sort of serious business they'll drop Venezuela like a hot potato as well.  Technically you can do business with individuals not on the sanctions list, but you know you're going to spend all your time shutting down shell fronts and there is a substantial risk that one day some media piece pops up pointing to you as facilitating crimes against humanity.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Adobe is prevented by law from doing business with the government of Venezuela or certain persons on a list maintained by the Secretary of the Treasury.  If those individuals or the government is suspected of using VPNs Adobe will blacklist all non-American VPN providers.  (American ones will be subject to the same laws.)  All non-American VPN providers will stop and think if the value of selling access to a bunch of criminals in Venezuela outweighs being blacklisted by just about every American business from Facebook and Google to Netflix is going to be worth it - because they will instantly lose 90% of their business if that happens.  If they run any sort of serious business they'll drop Venezuela like a hot potato as well.  Technically you can do business with individuals not on the sanctions list, but you know you're going to spend all your time shutting down shell fronts and there is a substantial risk that one day some media piece pops up pointing to you as facilitating crimes against humanity.
That's a whole lot of ifs and assumptions.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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To be fair the disposable nature of electronics is simply due to lack of Environmental legislation. US and China are worst at that

Per capita, the Australia produces more e-waste than any other country on earth. I can dump whatever electronics I want in the rubbish bin and no-one gives a hoot. China won't take back e-waste from foreigners anymore. But China and the USA (and some others) hoard nuclear weapons which is a bigger environmental hazard than common e-waste. Yep maybe the final destination of software/hardware/firmware and everything else will be in the cloud.... a mushroom cloud.

The Germans, with the exception of rogue company Volkswagen, have the right idea with being environmentally responsible. They are way ahead of the game on recycling and leave the rest of us to shame. They got rid of all their nuclear power stations and are big adopters of solar energy. The EU might be a pain in the arse with RoHS and RED compliance, but in the end it does make environmental sense.
 

Online sokoloff

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[The Germans]got rid of all their nuclear power stations and are big adopters of solar energy. The EU might be a pain in the arse with RoHS and RED compliance, but in the end it does make environmental sense.
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-g-n/germany.aspx suggests that they still run 7 reactors and get 12% of electricity from them. Do you have a citation that that information is inaccurate?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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One issue with the Microsoft interpretation of the cloud thing is that performance took a huge step back. Browsing through web synced or web based folders and screens tends to woefully slow, something which was a solved problem just after the year 2000 when it was done locally. Office wants to call home while starting taking forever, browsing through a structure takes a few seconds for every click and things take the better part of an hour to sync in the backend. It's infuriating and causes endless few second delays in the workflow. Its 1998 all over again. That's not just a bad example either, it's the baseline standard.
 

Online bd139

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Totally agree there. Exchange sync is awful. It drove me to FastMail in the end.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Yep. And for all that sucky slow stuff, you still need a 4GHz CPU with 32GB RAM and a fast SSD. :-DD
 

Offline SilverSolder

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It is a real awakening to try out some old 90's and 00's applications on a modern computer -  they work SOO fast.  Sadly, all the hardware goodness that we have today has been totally taken over and mostly wasted by a lot of modern software.

The same effect is true with monitors...   today's GUI designers are not able to get more information on a 4K, 48 inch monitor than what was common on a VGA monitor in the 80's (i.e. 25 lines of text.   Try looking at an eBay search today, you get 3 or 4 search results per page...  compared to the 25 you would have seen in the 80's (if eBay had existed!) ).
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Agreed. And it's a complete illustration of Wirth's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law

It's almost inevitable though. (Note that I said "almost", hinting that there may still be some hope ::) )
Not a technical problem. Just an economic one. The need for constant growth implies that. It has two consequences here: the constant need for newer/better hardware obviously contributes to economic growth; and then this apparent "lazyness" of software developers, all linked to the cost reduction of development, also contributes to economic growth. And both are feeding one another. Even better.

An interesting thing is that it actually lowers the users' expectations, while getting them used to buying new hardware on a regular basis. A marvel for marketers: lowered expectations, and lowered defense against frenetic consumption.

So I don't think this tendency will ever change, unless our whole economic model changes as well.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 07:08:45 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Online bd139

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Ugh yes. Saw a 500 level deep Java stack trace today  :--
 

Offline Rick Law

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It is a real awakening to try out some old 90's and 00's applications on a modern computer -  they work SOO fast.  Sadly, all the hardware goodness that we have today has been totally taken over and mostly wasted by a lot of modern software.

The same effect is true with monitors...   today's GUI designers are not able to get more information on a 4K, 48 inch monitor than what was common on a VGA monitor in the 80's (i.e. 25 lines of text.   Try looking at an eBay search today, you get 3 or 4 search results per page...  compared to the 25 you would have seen in the 80's (if eBay had existed!) ).

Agreed. And it's a complete illustration of Wirth's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law
...
...
An interesting thing is that it actually lowers the users' expectations, while getting them used to buying new hardware on a regular basis. A marvel for marketers: lowered expectations, and lowered defense against frenetic consumption.

So I don't think this tendency will ever change, unless our whole economic model changes as well.


And, you probably could have displayed that 25 lines faster with a 300 baud modem then, as compare to today's 1gb broadband modem fully laden with HD resolution advertisements.  And of course each of those little ads would also need all sorts of micro-services application just to that little thing they needed done.

Pretty soon, programmers will be calling hosted micro service agents to do things like calculate the sales tax because the idea of having to look up tax rates and do fractional arithmetic are tasks too complex for mere college graduates.  These are tasks best done by specialist in a server-farm far far away.

So, now we are back to the future.  A computational world where we buy CPU cycles from CompuServe or IBM or whoever, and connect to it for service using terminals running software we don't own on CPU we don't own.

Well, at least we own our terminals, a nice shinny glass back smart phone... and, we no longer need an acoustic coupler to use the phone line for data.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 11:44:33 pm by Rick Law »
 

Online bd139

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Reminds me of this:



Marketards run the world. Businesses control them. That's where the problem is.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Well, at least we own our terminals, a nice shinny glass back smart phone... and, we no longer need an acoustic coupler to use the phone line for data.

How many of us actually own even that...   how many are on some kind of monthly paid plan?
 

Online bd139

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Most people.

And regular cash flow is what subscriptions and monthly payments are all about.

Most software is basically “done” now. So it’s the only way of creating a reliable income. No one wants to buy office 2019.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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So it’s the only way of creating a reliable income.

One could keep improving the product (either features or fixes, or maybe both) and if people want thos they'll keep buying. Or one could create a new product and have income from that as well.

Subscription is basically having your cake and then eating it continuously because the plate never empties. Where is the imperitive to Do Something to earn your dosh? The only thing you have to worry about is that your product doesn't become so bad that people are willing to break out of your walled garden to choose a competitor, which is very bad indeed usually.

For the end user, subscription is spawn of the devil. It is fair enough where you pay for an ongoing service (say, hosting) providing that service isn't there only to lock you in (no names, but it ends in 'soft'). Otherwise the end user is literally a slave to the vendor's whims and desires.
 

Online sokoloff

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There is an amount of money for which a consumer should be indifferent between buying software up-front and subscribing to it for a monthly fee.

If there a package that sells for $1000, most people should be quite happy to subscribe to it for $1/mo instead. (The primary reason you wouldn't is for long-term support and availability reasons or because you think the price will jump significantly.)

That same product for $10/mo is probably still an economic bargain for most.

If the product used to sell for $100 and now someone's trying to peddle it for $10/mo, the vast majority of prospective customers will obviously balk.

I don't see anything wrong with subscription business models inherently. The brain damage comes in when a company can't sell $500 software packages because that's in the no-man's land of "needs budget approval", but they can sell it for $49/mo, because $49 doesn't require any budget signoff and now you get software that didn't sell well at $500/forever selling well at $49/mo, driving more stupidity into the overall subscription pricing market.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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I don't see anything wrong with subscription business models inherently.

Nothing wrong at all if there is a choice. For businessses, it can make sense to rent rather than buy outright (as already detailed earlier in the thread). Personally, I've been stung by not having access to data from a decade ago only because the relevant app no long works (sometimes through lack of foresight (mea culpa) but also through a subscription expiring for maintenance on a lifetime license - that one hurt).

A subscription pretty much makes a mockery of any data archives you have, because at some point that subscription will stop for any number of reasons (some beyond the user's control).

Quote
or because you think the price will jump significantly

I think what is going to happen is that subscription software will be on a par with buying outright for a while. That is, the subscription price over three years being around the same as the outright price. Hard to argue with that (although I have offered a vendor five years subscription as a one-off price for a non-subscription license, and got turned down). Once most software is rented like this (and it will happen - as vendors see the turnover of the subscription-only vendors, they'll want a slice) then any relation to an outright price will be lost, because there won't be an outright price to compare against. And then $10/mnth will seem peanuts so it will creep up and creep up, and pretty soon we're paying far more in real terms than we'd ever have pain off-subscription.

Quote
The brain damage comes in when...

Undoubtedly that, yes. But also when one quibbles about a subscription and gets told "Well, it's only $1/mnth - not even half a cup of decent coffee". Sure, that might be, but add on on the other 'only $x/mnth' subscriptions and you can be spending half your salary like that. It's one way that people get into serious debt, and in this case you can't stop the subscription because then it's bye-bye to your data or livelihood or whatever.

I have strong feelings about this, in case you hadn't noticed  8)
 

Offline james_s

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It is a real awakening to try out some old 90's and 00's applications on a modern computer -  they work SOO fast.  Sadly, all the hardware goodness that we have today has been totally taken over and mostly wasted by a lot of modern software.

The same effect is true with monitors...   today's GUI designers are not able to get more information on a 4K, 48 inch monitor than what was common on a VGA monitor in the 80's (i.e. 25 lines of text.   Try looking at an eBay search today, you get 3 or 4 search results per page...  compared to the 25 you would have seen in the 80's (if eBay had existed!) ).

So much this!!

It is a huge pet peeve of mine the way there is this arms race where monitor resolutions increase so UI designers just make everything bigger and add tons of white space and separation. I don't recall offhand what resolution the screen is on my employer issued Macbook Pro but we use Slack and with it shrunk as small as it will go it takes up a whopping 1/4 or so of the total screen real estate, it's absurd! I remember 15 years ago I could fit Windows Messenger in a little window down in the corner of a 1280x1024 display and it was completely usable. Low information density drives me nuts! The whole point of having a high resolution display is to fit lots of stuff on it.

The old software thing too, I still have Office 2003 which I still have installed on one machine, I find it much nicer than the more recent versions with that stupid ribbon interface, after years of being stuck with that on work computers I still have never grown to like it. I don't recall ever finding a feature I use that is not present in the 2003 version. It's no wonder they had to try to make Office subscription, there is less reason to upgrade software than ever, especially basic productivity tools.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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[...]  It's no wonder they had to try to make Office subscription, there is less reason to upgrade software than ever, especially basic productivity tools.

Now they've resorted to trying to scare people into upgrading for "Security" reasons...

IT is becoming / has become a commodity product.  The "IT fan boys" that experiment and learn lots of applications, graphic arts, programming, etc., are now a tiny minority. 

The mass adoption of IT by everyone and their grandmother means they just want to be able to  to do their everyday shopping and other errands online with as little confusion and hassle as possible.   So, we end up with massive whiteout on the whole monitor, with a single checkbox in the middle:  "Would you like fries with that?"

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Now they've resorted to trying to scare people into upgrading for "Security" reasons...

IT is becoming / has become a commodity product.  The "IT fan boys" that experiment and learn lots of applications, graphic arts, programming, etc., are now a tiny minority. 

The mass adoption of IT by everyone and their grandmother means they just want to be able to  to do their everyday shopping and other errands online with as little confusion and hassle as possible.   So, we end up with massive whiteout on the whole monitor, with a single checkbox in the middle:  "Would you like fries with that?"
As there are veritable and independently discovered vulnerabilities in the software it's not "scaring".
 
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Offline Rick Law

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Well, at least we own our terminals, a nice shinny glass back smart phone... and, we no longer need an acoustic coupler to use the phone line for data.

How many of us actually own even that...   how many are on some kind of monthly paid plan?

You are right, I stand corrected.

Perhaps too many do not have the math skill to determine the cost of that "free" phone, and too many do not have the patience to save up for a phone and save some money.  I suppose that is the live-long punishment for not learning math.


Most people.

And regular cash flow is what subscriptions and monthly payments are all about.
...

I came across an article about a month ago that more and more sneakers and sweaters are purchased using installment payment.  There are so many that a simple search come up with "12 buy now and pay later shoes stores"  (I am not putting a link here to prove my assertion- I don't like the idea and I don't want to give them free advertisement.  If you don't believe me, do the search yourself.)

I suppose the idea of Personal Computer that one owns running software that one owns is indeed thing of the past.



 

Offline BravoV

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I suppose the idea of Personal Computer that one owns running software that one owns is indeed thing of the past.

And in the future or even already happening (not sure), these so called Smart Medical Implants or IOT Body Implants thingy and similar stuffs, that are hooked up to the net/cloud, made me cringe and had goosebumps every time I think about it.

Offline Karel

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I suppose the idea of Personal Computer that one owns running software that one owns is indeed thing of the past.

Fortunately there's GNU/Linux and most commodity software has an opensource version...
 

Offline dferyance

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Keep in mind too, there is plenty of "vintage" software that is perfectly fine. If you have a Mac you probably are SOL as Apple doesn't care about backwards compatibility, but wintel has been quite good on backwards compatibility. Probably the most difficult problem is the x64 mode not supporting 16 bit software issue. But dosbox is pretty good in most of these cases. I'm still amazed that today's PCs still essentially have an ISA bus. It's not a bunch of card slots like before but it is there.

I still run and use "vintage" software. For much of it, the original developer isn't even in business anymore. Just this week I was playing the game Spiritual Warfare that came out in 1992. It's great fun and doesn't matter that it is old.

The sad thing is that in 10-20 years people won't be running much of today's software as vintage software. Everything has a cloud connection that won't be supported or exist anymore. There is far less emphasis on backwards compatibility than what existed in the early days of PCs. And forget about phone apps, they won't be able to download their ads / send spying data on you or run much past a few years.
 

Offline Rick Law

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I suppose the idea of Personal Computer that one owns running software that one owns is indeed thing of the past.

And in the future or even already happening (not sure), these so called Smart Medical Implants or IOT Body Implants thingy and similar stuffs, that are hooked up to the net/cloud, made me cringe and had goosebumps every time I think about it.

(USA Federal) Food & Drug Administration Safety Communication June 27, 2019
Certain Medtronic MiniMed Insulin Pumps Have Potential Cybersecurity Risks: FDA Safety Communication
"The FDA is warning patients and health care providers that certain Medtronic MiniMed™ insulin pumps have potential cybersecurity risks. Patients with diabetes using these models should switch their insulin pump to models that are better equipped to protect against these potential risks.

Medtronic is recalling the following affected MiniMed pumps and providing alternative insulin pumps to patients.
...
..."
Link to article: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/certain-medtronic-minimed-insulin-pumps-have-potential-cybersecurity-risks-fda-safety-communication 

That is one of the many reasons I am a strong believer that IoT is not advisable except in limited cases.  Oh, by the way, FDA recommends "do not share the Serial Number... ...".
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 07:25:28 pm by Rick Law »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Now they've resorted to trying to scare people into upgrading for "Security" reasons...

[...]
As there are veritable and independently discovered vulnerabilities in the software it's not "scaring".

Fair point, but are there any products, systems, services, or beings with no vulnerabilities?

We know our cars or front door locks are not 100% invulnerable to theft.  Yet we still use them - we accept a degree of imperfection.

Is it totally wrong to take the same approach with software, in the right circumstances?
 

Offline Rick Law

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Now they've resorted to trying to scare people into upgrading for "Security" reasons...

[...]
As there are veritable and independently discovered vulnerabilities in the software it's not "scaring".

Fair point, but are there any products, systems, services, or beings with no vulnerabilities?

We know our cars or front door locks are not 100% invulnerable to theft.  Yet we still use them - we accept a degree of imperfection.

Is it totally wrong to take the same approach with software, in the right circumstances?

Yes, because a thief has to be physically where your car or your front door is to try out different ways of picking your lock.  Being physically there exposed, the thief is taking a much higher risk of being caught.  With software thief (on any network connected machine), he/she can do that in the privacy of his/her home or somewhere with unsecured WiFi open to welcome or unwelcome guest.

The scale is also different.  Capital One, Sony, etc, the hecker just had to break into a database once, and she got millions of credit card and personal information records.
 

Offline Karel

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We know our cars or front door locks are not 100% invulnerable to theft.  Yet we still use them - we accept a degree of imperfection.

Is it totally wrong to take the same approach with software, in the right circumstances?

It is not wrong as long as the software is not connected to a network.
If the software is connected to a network, then yes, it is totally wrong (for the reasons already given by Rick Law).
 

Online bd139

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Yes it’s about “attack surface”. The attack surface needs to be minimised and that is extremely difficult on cloud platforms even with proper architectural design. All it takes is one fuck up on an S3 bucket policy and you’re screwed. There is no isolation late r in front of that, no physical separation, even if you use the subnet endpoints only because the S3 API is exposed everywhere. You are instantly up shit creek.

Eventually as customers learn to fear this they pay for people, processes and software to manage this and then the cost savings shrivel up.

But most of the time, mid size enterprises actually cost more up front in “the cloud” on operational expenditure. It’s easier writing off a monthly credit card bill than a capital expenditure though. And this isn’t helped by the cloud proponents and sales folk constantly buzzing around like flies around shit selling the overall cost savings lie.

One comedy thing here I experienced recently is a £165k SQL server box that lasts 3 years costs £890k a year to run in AWS without any other infrastructure considered. There’s enough cash left over by not using AWS to fix the rest of the company’s problems but you know, death march...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 09:15:02 am by bd139 »
 

Online sokoloff

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Yes it’s about “attack surface”. The attack surface needs to be minimised and that is extremely difficult on cloud platforms even with proper architectural design. All it takes is one fuck up on an S3 bucket policy and you’re screwed. There is no isolation late r in front of that, no physical separation, even if you use the subnet endpoints only because the S3 API is exposed everywhere. You are instantly up shit creek.
AWS provided late last year an additional isolation layer to help customers from making that particular mistake (because it was a common one, as you observed). Sort of a set of suspenders to go with the technically OK, but sometimes misused, belt that was always there.
https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/amazon-s3-block-public-access-another-layer-of-protection-for-your-accounts-and-buckets/
Eventually as customers learn to fear this they pay for people, processes and software to manage this and then the cost savings shrivel up.

But most of the time, mid size enterprises actually cost more up front in “the cloud” on operational expenditure. It’s easier writing off a monthly credit card bill than a capital expenditure though. And this isn’t helped by the cloud proponents and sales folk constantly buzzing around like flies around shit selling the overall cost savings lie.
For my day job, we're in the cloud for development speed and agility, not cost savings. It costs slightly more in total, but I also know damn well that our dev teams can launch services to the public in days not months, no one has to negotiate queueing up to get their project delivered, and we've more or less eliminated the annual "scale up for next holiday" project that we used to start in Feb and run through September each year. Our monthly AWS bill has two commas and it's totally worth it.

For my own personal work, I also mostly host in AWS on my own nickel. Not having to think about a lot of the randoms ops tasks is freeing.
One comedy thing here I experienced recently is a £165k SQL server box that lasts 3 years costs £890k a year to run in AWS without any other infrastructure considered. There’s enough cash left over by not using AWS to fix the rest of the company’s problems but you know, death march...
I tried to find the comparison server you're talking about. I think you've chosen an example which is apples to watermelons by choosing a high-availability multi-AZ server (which your single box obviously is not) and by not contemplating/comparing the purchase of the AWS box as a reserved instance (which is financially analogous to buying your own 3 year hardware), and not counting any of the ping, power, cooling, security, and maintenance costs to run the on-prem server.

I have no AWS financial interests (other than owning mutual funds, so I own some Amazon shares indirectly). They are simply the best game in town in cloud computing and likely to remain that way for the next half-decade. If you're moving an existing operation into the cloud solely to save costs, you're probably going to be disappointed. How much could you possibly be saving over whatever you're doing that's already working? Why spend the effort, dollars, and risk to move something that works?

If you're going to the cloud for speed and agility, you're much more likely to achieve your goal.
 

Online bd139

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Yes it’s about “attack surface”. The attack surface needs to be minimised and that is extremely difficult on cloud platforms even with proper architectural design. All it takes is one fuck up on an S3 bucket policy and you’re screwed. There is no isolation late r in front of that, no physical separation, even if you use the subnet endpoints only because the S3 API is exposed everywhere. You are instantly up shit creek.
AWS provided late last year an additional isolation layer to help customers from making that particular mistake (because it was a common one, as you observed). Sort of a set of suspenders to go with the technically OK, but sometimes misused, belt that was always there.
https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/amazon-s3-block-public-access-another-layer-of-protection-for-your-accounts-and-buckets/

Aware of that. However that's a simple soft control which depends both on (a) human competence and (b) amazon's competence and (c) that none of your AWS account infrastructure via IAM is compromised. It makes a mockery of layered security models.

Eventually as customers learn to fear this they pay for people, processes and software to manage this and then the cost savings shrivel up.

But most of the time, mid size enterprises actually cost more up front in “the cloud” on operational expenditure. It’s easier writing off a monthly credit card bill than a capital expenditure though. And this isn’t helped by the cloud proponents and sales folk constantly buzzing around like flies around shit selling the overall cost savings lie.
For my day job, we're in the cloud for development speed and agility, not cost savings. It costs slightly more in total, but I also know damn well that our dev teams can launch services to the public in days not months, no one has to negotiate queueing up to get their project delivered, and we've more or less eliminated the annual "scale up for next holiday" project that we used to start in Feb and run through September each year. Our monthly AWS bill has two commas and it's totally worth it.

For my own personal work, I also mostly host in AWS on my own nickel. Not having to think about a lot of the randoms ops tasks is freeing.

I'm using it for development agility as well. In fact I have built entire integration environments which quite happily fire themselves up using CloudFormation and then are destroyed. That's a great use case. But the issue is when it comes to production, there are almost always different security and performance requirements which are not cost effective to apply.

One comedy thing here I experienced recently is a £165k SQL server box that lasts 3 years costs £890k a year to run in AWS without any other infrastructure considered. There’s enough cash left over by not using AWS to fix the rest of the company’s problems but you know, death march...
I tried to find the comparison server you're talking about. I think you've chosen an example which is apples to watermelons by choosing a high-availability multi-AZ server (which your single box obviously is not) and by not contemplating/comparing the purchase of the AWS box as a reserved instance (which is financially analogous to buying your own 3 year hardware), and not counting any of the ping, power, cooling, security, and maintenance costs to run the on-prem server.

I have no AWS financial interests (other than owning mutual funds, so I own some Amazon shares indirectly). They are simply the best game in town in cloud computing and likely to remain that way for the next half-decade. If you're moving an existing operation into the cloud solely to save costs, you're probably going to be disappointed. How much could you possibly be saving over whatever you're doing that's already working? Why spend the effort, dollars, and risk to move something that works?

If you're going to the cloud for speed and agility, you're much more likely to achieve your goal.

Look at multi-AZ db.m5.24xlarge which is quite frankly shit. Reserved instance $954,720 pa. Over 3 years that's $2.864M.

Bear in mind: Please note that Reserved Instance prices don't cover storage or I/O costs. We priced up total at around $4.2M when you add that.

I can get a couple of rather cheaper mid-high end HP machines provisioned in two separate DCs as an active-passive cluster, with 10GBps inter-site link for half that TCO over 3 years all costs inclusive including the rack space/plumbing. They have a lot more RAM, they have a lot more storage bandwidth, lower storage latency with DAS Enterprise SSD. Transaction throughput is nearly 3x for half the cost. So I can now afford a DBA to look after it, pay for SQL Sentry etc so actual application performance gains can be made.

And then you have to consider where the consumer of the server is. AWS Direct Connect is not a whole load of fun to deal with.

I'm not going to even go into the hell that is debugging their black box services which do have bugs and do go wrong and the vendor's answer is "talk to AWS - they modified it and we dont support it" who aren't as good as people say they are even if you have enterprise support.

AWS can, to use the Scottish term, "get tae fuck".

Note I'm an AWS CSA and even I think it's a load of bollocks for a huge chunk of use cases.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 11:58:37 am by bd139 »
 

Online sokoloff

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I suspect over beers that we'd agree a hell of a lot more than disagree...

The only remotely sane reason to run that large a SQL server in AWS is if you can't port your solution to be more cloud native, but you want to run the rest of your stuff in the cloud.
It's madness indeed to try to run that RDS server in AWS for the primary purpose to connect from your on-prem clients.
(I'd go the other way: keep your on prem large DB cathedral and use direct connect to connect your cloud services onto your on prem DB. If you're already setting up direct connect, definitely keep your large DBs on your side of the moat.)

Our Enterprise support experience has been occasionally marred by someone less than competent, but we've had generally quite good results on first contact and aren't shy about "OK, try again; give me someone who knows what they're doing this time!" on the relatively rare occasions when needed.
 

Online bd139

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Probably likely :)

I completely agree. The issue is primarily “how do you migrate on prem to AWS” which is stuff I’ve been doing for about five years and seen some hell holes. Migrate high latency services over to native AWS services. Easy enough. Move ancillaries over such as static content and message bus. Easy enough. Fire up direct connect. Easy enough. Migrate front end caches to cloud front. Easy enough. Migrate smaller data stores to RDS / elasicache. Ready enough. Migrate front end app servers over. Ooh things getting a little hairy. Lose 20ms due to direct connect routing latency. Now you’re paying for a DC cage with one legacy monolithic SQL server in it with 50TiB of data, 2000 tables and sprocs written 20 years ago you can’t move because RDS is to expensive, standard instances are too slow and native instances even more expensive than RDS. That’s when the paid up consultants usually disappear rapidly. Then company product marketing turns into “hybrid cloud”  :-DD

Really the issue is the workload isn’t cleanly siloed and before you migrate your 20 year old piece of crap to the cloud you need to rewrite it with a different architectural model but no one wants to pay for that.

I think that support approach works for a lot of companies. Not Microsoft though. They are useless. I usually shitpost somewhere if I need attention from them  :-DD
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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That's not a rare problem though. The backend gets pushed to the cloud for all the usual sales pitch reasons so move the server and database there. Now there's latency the users complain about and the client software is balking because of it too. Move the clients to the cloud too to have application and database together and let the users connect remotely. Now there's licensing and integration issues with other software on top of different but similar performance issue. People are so busy drinking the Coolaid they forget more traditional setups simplify a lot of things to the point of problems never existing in the first place. The only point seems to create a potential to keep the market moving back and forth so people stay busy and paid.

I see bd139 posted almost exactly that as I was typing.  :-DD
 
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Online bd139

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If you get ten SREs/architects/consultants/operations guys in a room they all tell this story so not surprised there was some overlap on our comments  :-DD. Whole industry is a giant cargo cult.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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In the financial industry, some firms require service providers to be 100% in control of (and responsible for) sensitive data - meaning, cloud computing is off limits for these kinds of use cases.

One thing I don't get is,  why is it so hard to catch some of the Internet crooks and make examples of them?  They have to be leaving "fingerprints" everywhere... (Heads on spikes along Tower Bridge in London sounds appropriate...  assuming we can get to them for all the pocket thieves etc. that like to hang out there and pluck the tourists).

Crime is a fact of life everywhere and there is no such thing as perfect security...   we are all dependent on luck, to some extent, every day.
 

Offline james_s

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I still run and use "vintage" software. For much of it, the original developer isn't even in business anymore. Just this week I was playing the game Spiritual Warfare that came out in 1992. It's great fun and doesn't matter that it is old.

The sad thing is that in 10-20 years people won't be running much of today's software as vintage software. Everything has a cloud connection that won't be supported or exist anymore. There is far less emphasis on backwards compatibility than what existed in the early days of PCs. And forget about phone apps, they won't be able to download their ads / send spying data on you or run much past a few years.


I still use some DOS software written in the early 90s for the CE-232 computer interfaces I cloned and installed in a couple of my old scanner radios. It's text mode software that will run on a 8088 PC but it runs fine in DOSbox.

I have had that same thought, some day down the road a lot of people are going to be feeling nostalgic about all the mobile games and such they played when they were kids in the 2010s and most of that stuff is just going to be gone.
 

Offline james_s

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One thing I don't get is,  why is it so hard to catch some of the Internet crooks and make examples of them?  They have to be leaving "fingerprints" everywhere... (Heads on spikes along Tower Bridge in London sounds appropriate...  assuming we can get to them for all the pocket thieves etc. that like to hang out there and pluck the tourists).


I'm sure what you'd see happen is they would catch some low hanging fruit, dumb kids that did something minor that could conceivably be called internet crime and throw the book at them, ruining their lives for no real gain. Even when I was in school there were some kids who got in a lot of trouble for "hacking", ie silly and largely harmless stuff like bypassing the password on the Macs to change the screen saver to say something naughty. Meanwhile the real crooks that pull off the big stuff are mostly in other countries and largely out of reach.
 

Offline Rick Law

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One thing I don't get is,  why is it so hard to catch some of the Internet crooks and make examples of them?  They have to be leaving "fingerprints" everywhere... (Heads on spikes along Tower Bridge in London sounds appropriate...  assuming we can get to them for all the pocket thieves etc. that like to hang out there and pluck the tourists).


I'm sure what you'd see happen is they would catch some low hanging fruit, dumb kids that did something minor that could conceivably be called internet crime and throw the book at them, ruining their lives for no real gain. Even when I was in school there were some kids who got in a lot of trouble for "hacking", ie silly and largely harmless stuff like bypassing the password on the Macs to change the screen saver to say something naughty. Meanwhile the real crooks that pull off the big stuff are mostly in other countries and largely out of reach.

There is also one additional factor here:  To the companies/corporations, they have to assess the monetary value of loss vs the cost of securing from loss.

Credit card and stores are perfect examples.  Any store can fully secure itself from shoplifting. How much would that security cost vs up the price by 10% to cover "leakage".  The loss while significant or even life changing to affected individuals, but that loss to the company/corporation is but a drop in the ocean.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Quote
they played when they were kids in the 2010s and most of that stuff is just going to be gone

Not helped by mega-corps deliberately trashing the stuff. An example is Paper Defense:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/paper-defense/9wzdncrdncdl?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

Used to be a great variation of Tower Defense, but if you were hoping to redownload it for nostalgia you'd be disappointed because Microsoft bought it just so they could make it available only for Windows 10. Got W7? Won't run. They won't even let you download it, but there is no technical reason for that, just that it's a way to push hold-outs onto W10. There are many other examples of previously freely available and OS-agnostic programs which Microsoft have been quietly snapping up just to make sure you can only use them if you have W10.

Not at all off-topic. Would you trust your cloud presense to that kind of company?
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Interesting that the word 'games' only occurs once so far in this entire thread.  'Game' a few more times.

The topic of games being shifted to subscription model, made online only, and  'killed' at the publisher's whim, is like a mirror to this whole issue.
One person who focusses on this a lot is Ross, of Ross's Game Dungeon.

https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/dead-game-news/gaasfraud/
"Games as a service" is fraud.

https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/dead-game-news/dgnfrance/
Dead Game News: France vs. Valve + maybe the rest of the world

https://www.accursedfarms.com/posts/rosss-game-dungeon/darkspore/?v=1

He has a whole series called 'dead game news' about games that have been deliberately killed by the publishers.
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 

Offline madires

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There are also several cases of DRM servers being shut down causing users to loose access to their movies and music they paid for. Caveat emptor! ;)
 

Online bd139

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« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 11:38:05 am by bd139 »
 

Online Bud

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Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Bottom line -  cloud based services can't really be relied on long term as you are not in control of anything - you are a mere tenant and the landlord can evict at any time.

That said, there can be good reasons for renting facilities for shorter time frames,  or where the project / information is not super critical.
 

Offline olkipukki

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...,  or where the project / information is not super critical.
..or not your data and money  :-DD
 
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Online bd139

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...,  or where the project / information is not super critical.
..or not your data and money  :-DD

That's the only reason I am AWS cert  :-DD
 
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Offline madires

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Online SiliconWizard

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Yahoo groupds are shutting down

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups

Yep. Many users were actually seeing this coming for a couple years, and many have switched to a different platform (many have migrated to groups.io).

And of course you can't trust a private company to keep a service available forever. You can't trust it to itself exist forever either.

That doesn't mean in itself that the model is borked. That means that users should ALWAYS prepare for transitioning to something else. Problem with this is that this cloud model can't keep its (false from the start) promise that users would never have to worry about their data/software/... anymore once they use cloud services. This is just a plain LIE. Services shut down, get hacked, occasionally loose data... users should ALWAYS back up their data with several means and not just one. But yeah, this is exactly what those services claimed users wouldn't have to do anymore. Premium bullshit.

 

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Yep.

I got some funny looks today when I told people I back up github  :-DD. They be fools!
 

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I got some funny looks today when I told people I back up github  :-DD. They be fools!

Ahah, who cares... you'll be the one laughing when they lose their repos (or just the access to them) and potentially years of work.

That said, when working with github, you pretty much always have at least one local copy of the repos, and more often several if several people work on the same project. So even if you don't back that local copy up (which wouldn't be wise), you'd still have one or more copies if the service shuts down... you'd have to be extremely unlucky if you lost the github repos AND your local copies at the same time... (but yes Murphy likes good jokes! And for older projects you don't work on anymore, the probability raises significantly.)
 

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You'd be surprised how often carnage occurs there. 400 private github repos. Occasionally a guy leaves, forgets to push his local changes (which are at that point deployed because of the propensity of cowboys at this place) and then operations come along and hose his PC. So someone goes to fix something and finds that in github, the repo is empty and someone else has his pc :-DD.

All human related.
 

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Oh sure, but this last example is unfortunately a possible rationale for having everything online. Just force editors/IDEs as online services only, and there won't be a single local file anymore. Your scenario becomes impossible.

Of course then we're back to square one: a single point of failure with all your data on servers you have no control over.

Meanwhile, the big ones make huge benefits while we're running in circles. :-DD
 
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Offline andy2000

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Yahoo groupds are shutting down

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups

I stopped using Yahoo groups years ago when they did a major redesign.  It may have looked more modern, but they made it almost unusable.  All of the groups I read eventually moved to other platforms due to this.

Am I the only one who still misses Deja News?  There was a lot of good information in old Usenet posts, particularly when I needed some information on an old piece of computer hardware.  If I needed DIP switch settings for a particular EGA video card, chances are there was a post from back when they were still new.  Deja News reined it when they tried to turn themselves into a shopping site, then Google bought them and it briefly became usable again. 

It didn't take long for Google to merge it with Google groups, and make it impossible to find anything.  I just did a search for my name on Google groups and if I sort by relevance, I get 9373 hits, if I change that to sort by date, I only get 5.  This plus infinite scrolling makes it impossible to find anything specific.  You used to be able to filter by date, newsgroup, and other options, and everything wasn't polluted with irrelevant Google groups content. 
 

Offline james_s

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That was my experience as well, Yahoo Groups were great, I was an active member in several of them. Then the redesign made it completely unusable, the last one I tried to use was the local Freecycle group and after trying for some time to post something I gave up. I cannot fathom what they were thinking, unless their goal was actually to ruin it so thoroughly that they could shut it down. Absolutely nobody liked the change, within a few months every one of the groups I was in was all but dead.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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The problems that Facebook has encountered is a big headache that most companies don't want...  you can't just put up a forum and leave it unattended or up to the users to manage, any longer...   the risks of abuse are too high, and increasingly the focus of lawmakers (and lawyers  !).

This means it becomes more expensive to run these kinds of sites,  which in turn means companies choose to shut down the marginal ones (and delete all the data) rather than risk having to take responsibility for it.  (e.g. Yahoo Groups)
 

Offline Karel

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Online Bud

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Yahoo groupds are shutting down

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups

Yep. Many users were actually seeing this coming for a couple years, and many have switched to a different platform (many have migrated to groups.io).
....
Premium bullshit.
Ah, yes, groups.io and Premium bullshit. What do they have in common? Well, groups.io owners are politically motivated. They give you free Pemium plan if you support impichment of president Trump. Guess it is good news for those who do, but those who dont - be aware political bullshit may come down on you as a member of the service at some point and/or the groups.io owners may count you in when bragging "look how many people support the impichment". Possibilities are endless. Political shills are in the driver seat.  This may open a new trend in computer services. Create a platform, get people subscribe and start selling bulk access to the sheep to political clients. Indeed,  Premium bullshit.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Online bd139

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There's so much irony in that post it hurts.

 

Online SiliconWizard

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Wait for quantum cloud then. We ain't seen anything yet. All your data will be stored who knows where, churned who knows how by machines we don't have a fucking clue what they are actually doing.

Time for a beer I guess.
 :-DD
 

Online bd139

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Sounds like Azure :-DD
 

Offline olkipukki

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https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/microsoft_ebooks_death/

No wonder...

I still remember a moment when I were comfortable sitting in a chair 35,000 feet above the ground and was planning to do something meaningful until Excel told :blah: -  want connect to a cloud regardless my offline Office subscription  :wtf:  :-//

Since then, MS Office is 'dead' for me  :horse:
 

Offline james_s

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https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/microsoft_ebooks_death/

After the PlaysForSure and Zune debacles I'm baffled as to why anyone would invest in any Microsoft product or service involving purchased content. They are notorious for killing off products and platforms after a few years.
 

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After the PlaysForSure and Zune debacles I'm baffled as to why anyone would invest in any Microsoft product or service involving purchased content. They are notorious for killing off products and platforms after a few years.

Yep, and I'm waiting for the time they'll be killing off Windows.
 :-DD
 

Online Bud

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There's so much irony in that post it hurts.
Right, right. I am not surprised. It is so common these days for people to complain someone hurt their feelings. Why don't you take your pain to a bullshit social media of your choice?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Right, right. I am not surprised. It is so common these days for people to complain someone hurt their feelings. Why don't you take your pain to a bullshit social media of your choice?
Yes, bd139 is known for his sensitive nature.  :-DD
 
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Online bd139

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Right on.

The point was that you can't go whining about political manipulation when the current situation was created through political manipulation. And it's not like I don't have any first hand experience of that as I worked for one of the companies doing it.

And the only people who whine about it outline their political orientation. Which you can track. There's the irony.
 

Offline Canis Dirus Leidy

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Meanwhile, GitLab has made telemetry mandatory for users of its cloud hosting:
Quote
For GitLab.com users: as we roll out this update you will be prompted to accept our new Terms of Service. Until the new Terms are accepted access to the web interface and API will be blocked. So, for users who have integrations with our API this will cause a brief pause in service via our API until the terms have been accepted by signing in to the web interface.
Quote
GitLab.com (GitLab’s SaaS offering)and GitLab's proprietary Self-Managed packages (Starter, Premium, and Ultimate) will now include additional Javascript snippets (both open source and proprietary) that will interact with both GitLab and possibly third-party SaaS telemetry services (we will be using Pendo(https://www.pendo.io)).
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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So much for Gitlab being an alternative for Github. It seems they're holding people's work and even operations hostage until they agree with the new terms and conditions. So much for freely and willingly engaging in a contract.
 
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Online bd139

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A way out: http://fossil-scm.org/

Fully distributed. Written by the dude who wrote SQLite.

This is what I use for personal projects. Way less footguns than git as well.
 
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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I switched to gitlab the sec I found that M$ had bought github.
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 

Online SiliconWizard

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A way out: http://fossil-scm.org/

Fully distributed. Written by the dude who wrote SQLite.

This is what I use for personal projects. Way less footguns than git as well.

Fossil is nice, but way more than just git. OTOH, it's just software. They are not offering any hosting, are they? (I may have missed it.)

The whole point of using github or gitlab is the hosting IMO, not the version control system. There are many VCS solutions out there...

And of course, for public access, you need a "cloud" service of some kind. No way around it. You can always host your own service (to control it), in which case it would probably not be called "cloud". But you get the point. In this thread, we have been discussing many use cases that can perfectly be fulfilled with purely local solutions. Using a "cloud" service when a purely local solution would work is just stupid IMO, yet increasingly common.

But when you need a shared/public access, you'll need servers.
At which point does a server or a bunch of servers start qualifying for being called "cloud"? Is it when the hosted data starts being shuffled around several servers without you knowing? (I guess this could be a simple definition of the "cloud", conveying the very idea that data is made remotely accessible, but from no definite/single point.)

I guess the whole key factor is whether you have full control over the service you're using/sharing, or whether you are OK with delegating the control to some third-party that often has completely different objectives from yours.
 

Online bd139

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You don't need a central control point for Fossil (or git) and don't need hosting. That's just an option.

People still haven't actually worked out DVCS platforms yet. Still stuck in the client-server mindset.
 

Online RoGeorge

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http://fossil-scm.org/

Fully distributed.

Didn't know about it, looks interesting, thanks!   :-+

At a first look, an integrated wiki/doc and other tools like bug tracing looks very appealing, I always missed those with git.  Also, atomic commits sounds very appealing, too.

However, keeping all in some SQL database format instead of plain text makes me very reluctant, but I'll still give it a try.

Online bd139

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It’s SQLite underneath it. It’s in your browser, phones, television and computer already :)

https://sqlite.org/mostdeployed.html
 

Offline BravoV

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https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/

Incredible, although it was to be expected.

So are there absolutely no Windows license in Iran? Really? Wouldn't that be consistent?
 

Offline BravoV

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https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/

Incredible, although it was to be expected.

So are there absolutely no Windows license in Iran? Really? Wouldn't that be consistent?

Well, what I am waiting is for Microsoft's step on how they handle this on their Windows 10 ? Remote lock down ? Invalidate the license even legit ? Etc ?

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/

Quote
The impact of U.S. trade restrictions is trickling down to the developer community. GitHub,  the world’s largest host of source code, is preventing users in Iran, Syria, Crimea and potentially other sanctioned nations from accessing portions of the service, chief executive of the Microsoft-owned firm said.

Over the weekend, GitHub CEO Nat Friedman wrote on Twitter that like any other “company that does business in the US,” GitHub is required to comply with the U.S. export law. The confirmation comes months after work collaboration service Slack, too, enforced similar restrictions on its platform.

 :--  :box:  :palm:  |O
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Wasn't github american before MS bought it?

Weren't there no sanction with any of those countries from 2008 to today?
So why would they have to comply just NOW?
 

Offline BravoV

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Wasn't github american before MS bought it?

Weren't there no sanction with any of those countries from 2008 to today?
So why would they have to comply just NOW?

Read the 1st post, probably the orange face dude enforces it just recently at all fronts, I guess.

Hint , President Executive Order 13884.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 08:43:41 pm by BravoV »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Uh, yeah. The sanction against Venezuela is recent, but sanctions against Iran for instance, have existed for a long time. They tend to come and go depending on agreements and current administration, but there certainly have been sanctions against Iran before, and they were also fiercely enforced. Even many non-US companies had to ban all business with Iran, due to the nice extraterritoriality factor (for instance, a few years back, Peugeot lost a big chunk of its revenues due to a sudden ban of all sales in Iran). It's nothing new.

I guess github was just way under the radar until it got bought by MS. MS obviously can't be.

An interesting question is what is banned exactly, and what is considered business. Like, in the case of github: we could understand (well, in the presence of the ban) that github could not have customers in Iran. But what about the big fraction of github users that are NOT customers? I guess actually most github users are not actual customers - just users of a free service. I don't have the figures, but I'd be willing to bet that the customers are only a small fraction of all users. So is any "free" user considered a customer, and is using github, even if you never paid a penny to them, considered  doing business with github?
 

Offline Rick Law

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Whether Cloud works or not, The Pentagon is jumping in...  Hot news, just hours ago.

Article on Fox Business Network 10/25/2019: "Pentagon hands Microsoft $10B 'war cloud' deal, snubs Amazon"
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon
 

Offline madires

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Online bd139

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Thats a fine example of 2019 thinking. Don't find an existing problem and solve it improving the world in the process, but create a new problem and solve it and we all slip a little further down the road to hell.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Gitlab has postponed the telemetry plan after people made a ruckus about it.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/gitlab-backs-down-on-planned-telemetry-changes-forced-tracking/
 
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Online DimitriP

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Whether Cloud works or not, The Pentagon is jumping in...  Hot news, just hours ago.

Article on Fox Business Network 10/25/2019: "Pentagon hands Microsoft $10B 'war cloud' deal, snubs Amazon"
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon
Hopefully the password will be something other than Joshua.
and it might need another 10B to "fix it" after it rolls out.
By that time it will be time to upgrade it. Another few $B
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Gitlab has postponed the telemetry plan after people made a ruckus about it.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/gitlab-backs-down-on-planned-telemetry-changes-forced-tracking/

Nice, but they'll do it eventually. They're just waiting for enough users to switch from github to gitlab. Once they are all trapped, they'll switch on the telemetry. ;D
 
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Offline Bassman59

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Whether Cloud works or not, The Pentagon is jumping in...  Hot news, just hours ago.

Article on Fox Business Network 10/25/2019: "Pentagon hands Microsoft $10B 'war cloud' deal, snubs Amazon"
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/pentagon-hands-microsoft-10b-war-cloud-deal-snubs-amazon
Hopefully the password will be something other than Joshua.

HAHAHA!! We found the DVD of that movie for a few bucks and bought it. My son, who's 11, loves it. I showed him some web sites that discuss the IMSAI computer and the terminals. I don't think he quite gets how difficult it was to use computers back then.

I watch it and say, "HEY MATTHEW BRODERICK, that's Ally Sheedy there! Don't be a dumbass!"
 

Offline madires

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Good news: https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-continues-digital-media-access-in-venezuela/
They got a license to continue offering services in Venezuela.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Nice, but they'll do it eventually. They're just waiting for enough users to switch from github to gitlab. Once they are all trapped, they'll switch on the telemetry. ;D
Or they'll introduce it piecemeal or make some token changes to supposedly address the issues people have with the plan. That's why I used the word "postponed" instead of "cancelled". It's unlikely their motivation suddenly changes but the bad publicity is an issue.
 
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #174 on: November 04, 2019, 10:00:16 pm »
Stumbled across another example of Microsoft's malicious takedown of applications that work in W7:

http://code52.org/DownmarkerWPF/

Markdown editor thingy and you can see there are download links. The desktop download doesn't work any more (a *.windows.net URL, surprise) but the Microsoft store one does. Go there and at the bottom in the Addition Information section the release date is noted as 2012. That's a while back and you can bet your arse it worked on W7 and XP. Back up the top, System Requirements, only available for Windows 8. And no, you can't fool it.

OK, back to the original and take a look at the source links. Yes, the one to the desktop app works ;) There are also Nightly and Stable links, but try getting 'em :(

There is no technical reason why this isn't available for W7 any more. It is solely because Microsoft is going round scooping up W7 apps to deliberately kill them off in an attempt to force W10 as the only platform.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #175 on: November 04, 2019, 10:40:00 pm »
So much for Gitlab being an alternative for Github. It seems they're holding people's work and even operations hostage until they agree with the new terms and conditions. So much for freely and willingly engaging in a contract.

Wait are people seriously putting their projects on sites like that without having any kind of local copy?
 

Online bd139

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #176 on: November 04, 2019, 10:43:20 pm »
Usually something needs to be centralised for access and build support.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #177 on: November 05, 2019, 12:08:11 am »
So much for Gitlab being an alternative for Github. It seems they're holding people's work and even operations hostage until they agree with the new terms and conditions. So much for freely and willingly engaging in a contract.
Wait are people seriously putting their projects on sites like that without having any kind of local copy?
The local copy is only gone if you delete the git repository from your own hard drive. Remember git is a distributed versioning system. A local copy contains all the data by default (you can prune data by leaving out specific branches or deleting changes beyond a certain age). A remote git repository is nothing more than an image of what you have locally.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 12:10:01 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rjp

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #178 on: November 05, 2019, 01:12:24 am »
As a consumer I want the one off payment with permenant ownership model but as a producer I want a  stable income stream that manages the full life time of the product, including bug fixes and upgrades.

Ive happily moved many things to cloud based, you cant seriously manage a team based developement without it, depending on how much time you want to spend on systems admin and operating systems patching.
 

Online bd139

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #179 on: November 05, 2019, 09:38:36 am »
Regarding the last point, that's only because we have been trained to accept that by all the marketing from all the centralised services. Git wasn't even designed to work that way. The whole point of git was fully distributed development via patch distribution.

I actually know a company that does this properly.

Each dev pulls upstream from the product manager. The product manager pushes his repo to QA after he's integrated all the changes from the devs. Then QA push to distribution who actually do the final build and sign it. No one works in the same place.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 09:40:11 am by bd139 »
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #180 on: November 05, 2019, 11:03:21 am »
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #181 on: November 05, 2019, 03:21:10 pm »
Obviously the more you delegate and the more vulnerable you can be, especially when you have no control over who you are delegating to, which is the case with online "cloud" services. If you are a paid customer, you may at least think you're entitled to some control as a customer, but if you read the license agreements carefully, you'll see you have basically none in most cases. Whether you're OK with that is up to you.

If you're using one of those services for practical reasons, you should always consider them as temporary, work storage IMO, and not permanent.

Many see those services as a way not to need any IT work in their company. This is fucked-up in several ways. The most important one is that whatever you do, there must be some people responsible for data integrity in a given company. Many things can be delegated to third parties, but responsibility is not one of them. Would you also have a virtual CEO in a cloud service while you're at it? |O

So yeah, someone has to be responsible. Of course they can still choose to delegate most of their work - but that's their responsibility. If something goes wrong, they will be accountable. Knowing that, anyone in that position and not doing anything to back up remote repositories on a regular basis must either be senseless, or they must not sleep very well at night.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #182 on: November 05, 2019, 10:41:15 pm »
Quote
US mega-retailer Best Buy will switch off the "smart" portion of its Insignia-branded smart home gadgets this coming Wednesday,
rendering them just plain old dumb gear.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/05/best_buy_iot/
 

Online DimitriP

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #183 on: November 05, 2019, 11:48:03 pm »
Quote
Would you also have a virtual CEO in a cloud service while you're at it?
What? Those private jets need an excuse to be on the air!!!






   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #184 on: November 05, 2019, 11:50:52 pm »
This is how I see any proprietary license (cloud-based or not).

 
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Online DimitriP

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #185 on: November 05, 2019, 11:55:02 pm »
Quote
US mega-retailer Best Buy will switch off the "smart" portion of its Insignia-branded smart home gadgets this coming Wednesday,
rendering them just plain old dumb gear.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/05/best_buy_iot/

In a way, thats great news..at least in the context of this thread.
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #186 on: November 06, 2019, 12:08:35 am »
This is how I see any proprietary license (cloud-based or not).
(...)

Except here, the devil is actually getting your money as well. You lose twice. ;D
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #187 on: November 06, 2019, 01:11:12 am »
This is how I see any proprietary license (cloud-based or not).


Proprietary and cloud are two rather different things.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #188 on: November 06, 2019, 07:54:30 am »
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//

Offline Karel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #189 on: November 06, 2019, 08:46:23 am »
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//

Yes, I considered that. That's why, on my android phone
- I use a fake gmail account to register android & phone
- I never use it to check or read my real email
- I didn't install facebook or whatsapp (I use telegram)
- I don't use google maps, I use Osmand instead
- I disabled chrome and use Firefox instead
- wifi is always disabled (I have a 4G dataplan of 50GB and I'm never able to consume it)
- bluetooth is always disabled
- I don't use speech commands
By the way, it's a nexus. So, I only have to deal with google's shit, no preinstalled shit from samsung or other brands which is impossible to remove or disable.
If one day, a Linux phone arrives that runs Telegram ,Osmand and Firefox, I'll buy it immediately. They are the only applications I use on the road.

 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #190 on: November 06, 2019, 10:45:35 am »
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//

Not only that, you don't actually own any of the apps you "buy" and install on it. 

For example, I have an Android tablet in the car used only for connecting to the car's CAN bus and looking at various performance parameters (engine temperature, manifold vacuum, etc.).   This tablet never gets connected to the Internet and should not need to.

Sadly...  what seems to happen is that if the tablet is disconnected from the Internet for several months, the app "times out"...   I get an error, "App not owned" (literally!).

To cure it, I have to take the tablet into the house, connect to the Internet, and let all the spyware contact the mother ship.  Then it will work again...  for another while.

Pathetic.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #191 on: November 06, 2019, 11:02:40 am »
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//

Not only that, you don't actually own any of the apps you "buy" and install on it. 

For example, I have an Android tablet in the car used only for connecting to the car's CAN bus and looking at various performance parameters (engine temperature, manifold vacuum, etc.).   This tablet never gets connected to the Internet and should not need to.

Sadly...  what seems to happen is that if the tablet is disconnected from the Internet for several months, the app "times out"...   I get an error, "App not owned" (literally!).

To cure it, I have to take the tablet into the house, connect to the Internet, and let all the spyware contact the mother ship.  Then it will work again...  for another while.

Pathetic.

LOL  :-DD , as expected, hence I mentioned OS instead of app, as most apps these days are sort of selling "us" too as side income.

Just curious about that error message, was that came from the app, or the Android's system notification ?

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #192 on: November 06, 2019, 11:08:18 am »

Just curious about that error message, was that came from the app, or the Android's system notification ?

I'm not sure, actually.  I bought was graciously given permission to use the app in exchange for cash, from the Amazon app store.  The message is either coming from the app itself, or the Amazon store app (which is my primary suspect), or possibly Android itself - but it is an older version of Android (4.xx if I remember right) so perhaps it is less likely to be as bad as the later versions.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #193 on: November 06, 2019, 07:51:17 pm »
Proprietary and cloud are two rather different things.

But the devil is the same.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #194 on: November 06, 2019, 07:53:41 pm »
But the devil is the same.
They don't appear to be.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #195 on: November 06, 2019, 11:26:33 pm »
Do you consider nowadays smartphone OS (not the apps installed), is also considered as cloud dependence piece of software too ? Even you've disabled all auto-update on everything in it.

I mean like IOS and Android, say you're born in those cursed countries, today everything is fine & dandy, and one day your country's political allegiance shifted against US overnight, say its not your fault as you're not into political nor in your control directly.

All they need is to "legally" force Google or Apple like Adobe at the OP post, to send the lock signal of death from the mothership once your gadget gets connected.

Guess I'm too paranoid.  :-//


I hate the current phone ecosystem because of how cloud tied it is. You don't really have full control of your device. It does not have to be the way it is, but it is.  The phone OSes are practically tied to the cloud and there's not much you can do.  You can't even start using a new one without tying it to an account that is tied to their service.  You can't install apps without their service, a lot of stuff you can't do without the cloud.   You can turn off a lot of the cloud based functionality if you want, but by default everything is being synced like your contacts etc.  There's no easy way around any of it.  Everything spies on you as well to make matters worse and all that spy stuff is built right into the OS.  The permission system is a false sense of security. I'm sure just because you turn off location services it does not mean the OS can't still use it and bypass it's own block.  Same with things that alert you if the mic has been accessed, the OS itself can bypass all of that.    The OSes are designed that way.  Both Apple and Android really. 

There is the Librem phone that is (I think) more stand alone and is not based on this whole concept and based around privacy.  Not sure how good it is though.   I do hope it takes off but either way I would love to see something equivalent to Linux, where you can just replace the entire OS on an existing phone.  I'm not talking about an android spin, but an actual alternate OS. Something that does not require you to sign in and tie it to Google or do any of that crap. 
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #196 on: November 07, 2019, 12:51:10 am »
But the devil is the same.
They don't appear to be.

The devil has many guises.
 

Online bd139

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #197 on: November 07, 2019, 08:03:23 am »
Mostly Larry Ellison. So just stay away from that cloud  :-DD
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #198 on: November 07, 2019, 03:23:31 pm »
The "cloud" metaphor says it all anyway.

Clouds never last.
 

Online Bud

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #199 on: November 07, 2019, 03:54:28 pm »
I was at a grossery store yesterday, paying for my purchases, and there was a guy a couple people  behind me in the line, having the speakerphone turned on on his phone for some reason, and i heard a women screaming on the other end of the call and some little kids crying, and the women frantically screaming "What is going on with this security system!?". The guy kind of tried to calm her down and said "we have to use the app to turn it off".   I thought to myself like  , yeah, i wish you guys luck with your security system.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #200 on: November 07, 2019, 04:15:13 pm »
I was at a grossery store yesterday, paying for my purchases, and there was a guy a couple people  behind me in the line, having the speakerphone turned on on his phone for some reason, and i heard a women screaming on the other end of the call and some little kids crying, and the women frantically screaming "What is going on with this security system!?". The guy kind of tried to calm her down and said "we have to use the app to turn it off".   I thought to myself like  , yeah, i wish you guys luck with your security system.

Poor women screaming louder ... "G'DAMN IT !!! The app says we have not pay the due annual maintenance, and its disabled all access ... "  :-DD

Online bd139

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #201 on: November 07, 2019, 04:34:14 pm »
That's not a security system, that's a poo in an alarm costume :-DD

Good cloud related one I recently encountered. Too loose an IAM configuration allows trendy software to create its own security group rules and expose a 100% unsecured management port on the public internet so it can talk to itself  :palm:. It was there long enough for shodan.io to pick it up as well.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #202 on: November 09, 2019, 04:50:40 pm »
Not completely the same but related:

Quote
A message appears on your TV: Netflix will no longer be available on this device

[Updated 11/8/19] Netflix has announced that due to technical limitations, as of December 2, 2019, the Netflix streaming service will no longer be
supported on several consumer electronics devices, including some from Samsung. This change will impact select 2010 and 2011 Samsung Smart
TV models that were sold in the U.S. and Canada. Affected devices will receive a notification reflecting this change.

https://www.samsung.com/us/support/troubleshooting/TSG01203568/?CID=afl-ecomm-cjn-cha-092118-52057&cjevent=4c0bfd9a026511ea8052014e0a180512
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #203 on: November 09, 2019, 05:57:54 pm »
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #204 on: November 09, 2019, 07:03:17 pm »
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
You're forced to support the industry though. Finding a decent spec television without the ill-supported smart part is pretty much impossible.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #205 on: November 09, 2019, 07:24:06 pm »
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
You're forced to support the industry though. Finding a decent spec television without the ill-supported smart part is pretty much impossible.
But who needs a television nowadays? Most settop boxes have HDMI out so a PC style monitor will do just fine.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #206 on: November 09, 2019, 07:51:07 pm »
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
You're forced to support the industry though. Finding a decent spec television without the ill-supported smart part is pretty much impossible.

Fortunately we can use smart TVs without any internet connection. But this may change and we might have to create a login for the manufacturer's cloud for maximizing profit via targeted ads.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #207 on: November 09, 2019, 07:57:17 pm »
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.
You're forced to support the industry though. Finding a decent spec television without the ill-supported smart part is pretty much impossible.
But who needs a television nowadays? Most settop boxes have HDMI out so a PC style monitor will do just fine.

Computer monitors are never made as big as TV, that alone does matter, e.g.: I want to sit lazily on my cozy big long sofa while watching "big" screen from a "distance" thats hanging on the wall.

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #208 on: November 09, 2019, 08:04:30 pm »
Computer monitors are never made as big as TV, that alone does matter, e.g.: I want to sit lazily on my cozy big long sofa while watching "big" screen from a "distance" thats hanging on the wall.

You can find monitors that are just as big as a TV set. They are unfortunately much more expensive!
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #209 on: November 09, 2019, 08:06:12 pm »
Computer monitors are never made as big as TV, that alone does matter, e.g.: I want to sit lazily on my cozy big long sofa while watching "big" screen from a "distance" thats hanging on the wall.

You can find monitors that are just as big as a TV set. They are unfortunately much more expensive!

Exactly my point, as not everyone has money growing tree in their garden.  :P

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #210 on: November 09, 2019, 09:02:55 pm »
You can find monitors that are just as big as a TV set. They are unfortunately much more expensive!
I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #211 on: November 09, 2019, 09:06:57 pm »
You can find monitors that are just as big as a TV set. They are unfortunately much more expensive!
I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors.
They exist. You could have Googled that yourself ofcourse.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 09:09:34 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #212 on: November 09, 2019, 09:37:49 pm »
They exist. You could have Googled that yourself ofcourse.
I should have counted on some pedant chipping in.  :palm: Those are around the $4000 mark and effectively off the table. Let me supplement myself with the obvious. I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors available within reason.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #213 on: November 09, 2019, 09:49:36 pm »
They exist. You could have Googled that yourself ofcourse.
I should have counted on some pedant chipping in.  :palm: Those are around the $4000 mark and effectively off the table. Let me supplement myself with the obvious. I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors available within reason.
Moving goalposts as usual. Like with any type of electronic equipment prices will go down rapidly. 49" TVs and monitors seems to be on par when it comes to price. Logical because the panels are not different.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #214 on: November 09, 2019, 11:22:40 pm »
Moving goalposts as usual. Like with any type of electronic equipment prices will go down rapidly. 49" TVs and monitors seems to be on par when it comes to price. Logical because the panels are not different.
The Goalpost Moving Champion is trying to lecture me. Colour me unimpressed.  :-DD
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2019, 05:58:39 am »
It is pretty clear to me that the so-called smart TVs are a complete bust. The software simply isn't supported long enough.

I hate that most TVs now are smart. This plague is moving to other things like fridges now too.  I don't want that crap.  Especially with the spying it comes with and I presume you're forced to tie it to some account before it even lets you use it.  Wish it was possible to buy just a regular TV.    My TV is old enough that it only has very basic smart features (reading from a USB stick etc) but not looking forward to when it needs to be replaced.

On similar note I hate that lot of misc products now days have an app.  The minute I see that what that tells me is that the product NEEDS this stupid app to work, and in 5-10 years from now will be unusable because they'll have stopped updating the app.  And of course, this app will require you to create an account and be tied to the cloud.  For example my DJI drone is like that.  You can sorta fly it without the app but you lose most of the functionality like being able to record video.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 06:01:37 am by Red Squirrel »
 

Online bd139

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #216 on: November 10, 2019, 09:46:01 am »
Most of the so called smart devices are dumb crap with smart crap strapped on the side. I reckon it’s possible to eviscerate the smart bits at some point. When that full size double smart fridge gets turfed for being software discontinued I’m going to be there to help dispose of it  8)
 

Offline madires

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #217 on: November 10, 2019, 10:57:09 am »
On similar note I hate that lot of misc products now days have an app.  The minute I see that what that tells me is that the product NEEDS this stupid app to work, and in 5-10 years from now will be unusable because they'll have stopped updating the app.  And of course, this app will require you to create an account and be tied to the cloud.  For example my DJI drone is like that.  You can sorta fly it without the app but you lose most of the functionality like being able to record video.

Cloud tethered stuff is another form of planned obsolescence.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #218 on: November 10, 2019, 11:39:30 pm »
Monitors tend to be more expensive than smart TVs because the smart TVs are subsidized by the data they harvest. Anyone who actually connects a smart TV to the internet is a moron.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #219 on: November 10, 2019, 11:57:59 pm »
Monitors tend to be more expensive than smart TVs because the smart TVs are subsidized by the data they harvest. Anyone who actually connects a smart TV to the internet is a moron.

Well, it's a question of market first - they sell A LOT more TV sets than huge monitors, so you have a large economy of scale, and then there is the acceptable price point, which is obviously not the same. But after that, sure the "added" functionalities are a trap. TV vendors make a lot of money out of all the extra services, just like with many other devices these days... I'm sure the mere fact they would ship the TVs with the Netflix app preinstalled makes them a significant amount of cash per sold TV...

 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #220 on: November 11, 2019, 08:51:34 am »

Watch out for the emergence of a market for "little black boxes" that make cloud tethered devices work by pretending to be whatever cloud service they need to work...

 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #221 on: November 11, 2019, 09:04:39 am »
Just curious, are there chip/IC companies have something similar ? That their product only can be used/developed/trouble-shooting and etc, using their proprietary tool/app that constantly need to be connected ? MCU ? Sensor ? Etc ?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:23:41 am by BravoV »
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #222 on: November 12, 2019, 07:21:21 am »
Most of the so called smart devices are dumb crap with smart crap strapped on the side. I reckon it’s possible to eviscerate the smart bits at some point. When that full size double smart fridge gets turfed for being software discontinued I’m going to be there to help dispose of it  8)

Yeah I imagine for now it's probably not too hard to bypass all the smart stuff, replace everything with an MCU of choice and program it to do whatever it has to do (keep temperature of a fridge for example) and call it a day.  May need to replace certain sensors with ones you buy so you know how to interface with them as theirs could be proprietary with no datasheet available but that's about it.

Eventually though I think they will make it so the stuff is so integrated that it will be a practical rebuild of the entire appliance.  For example they might even use "smart relays" that have logic built in, or even "smart motors" with the logic built right in etc so you can't just replace the control board and keep the other parts in tact as you won't be able to control those parts.   They might even put some "safety" interlocks where if you try to open it it just disables the product for good.   If they get their way and make it illegal they could even get people arrested if it sends a signal out when you try to open it.  Basically they'd make it so when you buy the product you're only buying a license to use it and you're not allowed to open it.  John Deere already does this.     I hope I'm wrong, but I could see it get that way.
 

Online bd139

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #223 on: November 12, 2019, 08:00:31 am »
I’m hoping European warranty legislation will end that crap. It’s quite funny now when you take a 5 year old iPhone into Apple store and ask to exercise the Consumer Rights Act 2015. They actually deal with it. My sister got her iPhone 6 repaired last week.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #224 on: November 12, 2019, 08:35:02 pm »
In the future, there may certainly be an increasing number of products that will REQUIRE an internet connection to function properly (with all the crap you can imagine that comes with it.)
That's already the case with most "IoT" products. Sure this is what they are about, but come on. Do you really need an internet connection to be able to read the temperature inside your house? Because those gadgets are often just bricks if they have no internet connection. This is ridiculous.

So yes, hopefully some basic legislation will prevent the "require" part. For how long, I don't know... because we already see this is tolerated for all the so-called IoT crap. If tomorrow, all the TV sets are qualified as IoT devices, we'll be fucked. Plain and simple.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #225 on: November 13, 2019, 01:43:41 am »
They exist. You could have Googled that yourself ofcourse.
I should have counted on some pedant chipping in.  :palm: Those are around the $4000 mark and effectively off the table. Let me supplement myself with the obvious. I don't think there are 4K 55" OLED monitors available within reason.

I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #226 on: November 13, 2019, 06:15:45 am »

I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.

Exactly, the so called Professional Displays:

https://www.samsung.com/hk_en/business/smart-signage/professional-displays/

https://pro.sony/en_HK/products/professional-displays

https://business.sharpusa.com/Professional-Displays

https://www.philips.com/content/dam/b2c/category-pages/2017_USA_Range_Brochure.pdf

https://panasonic.net/cns/prodisplays/

Of course they are not going to cost the same as most of the SmartTVs, probably 2x or 3x more, but they are better constructed and the panels are better (handpicked no defects, best levels and colour reproduction, the others that are less capable are used in consumer tvs and PC LCDs).
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #227 on: November 13, 2019, 06:25:57 am »
I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.
Most of those aren't OLED. LG has them but I don't think those are anywhere near the $2000 mark.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #228 on: November 13, 2019, 06:52:44 am »

I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.

Exactly, the so called Professional Displays:

https://www.samsung.com/hk_en/business/smart-signage/professional-displays/

https://pro.sony/en_HK/products/professional-displays

https://business.sharpusa.com/Professional-Displays

https://www.philips.com/content/dam/b2c/category-pages/2017_USA_Range_Brochure.pdf

https://panasonic.net/cns/prodisplays/

Of course they are not going to cost the same as most of the SmartTVs, probably 2x or 3x more, but they are better constructed and the panels are better (handpicked no defects, best levels and colour reproduction, the others that are less capable are used in consumer tvs and PC LCDs).

Those are probably going to be hard to find for a consumer though especially outside of the states.  Lot of stuff geared at industrial/commercial use does not tend to be easily available in regular stores or websites.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #229 on: November 13, 2019, 07:06:12 am »
I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.
Most of those aren't OLED. LG has them but I don't think those are anywhere near the $2000 mark.

Sure, but you can go shopping around for what you need. You probably won't find many OLED commercial displays on the market due to the image retention/burn-in that they suffer. I'm just demonstrating that professional/commercial displays are plentiful and reasonably affordable. When I bought my TV/display for my living room, I shopped around for a commercial monitor instead of a traditional TV. I ended up settling with a Philips unit. Very few bells and whistles. All it needs to do is display an image and display it properly with high quality. It does that one job very well.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #230 on: November 13, 2019, 07:06:25 am »
Those are probably going to be hard to find for a consumer though especially outside of the states.  Lot of stuff geared at industrial/commercial use does not tend to be easily available in regular stores or websites.

True but this as you stated and right, are not equipments tailored to be sold to the common end consumer who wants to hook up a HDMI box and watch Netflix or have a Plex Streaming Server at home.

This are equipments suited for companies to be used in video walls for monitoring and for commerce Ad showing. And it interests to people like us, EE and ITs who have different needs. And most of us work in companies who had a sales department and for sure can try if you want to own one to the manufacture to sell one as a test with the chance to buy more in the future if it fulfils the need. That's how I bought most of the test equipment I own and also IT equipment, just calling out companies in name of the company I worked in the moment (of course with the authorization from the higher ups) or asking the sale department "friend" to ask for quotation in the resellers and manufactures who worked with.

That way you can get sometimes a healthy discount and even some times they provide with samples for you to test and if it's what you need you just need to ask how much will cost you to keep it, and normally that includes a minimum of 10% discount. My 289 was bought that way, my Zenbook was bought that way, my old workstation parts were bought with 20% discount on the final price because it was a reseller/distributor we worked a lot and had an account with for years...

If you really want one, and don't have the problem to pay a little more that the normal run of the mill TV sold on Walmart, you will find a way.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 07:08:23 am by Black Phoenix »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #231 on: November 13, 2019, 02:55:19 pm »
Sure, but you can go shopping around for what you need. You probably won't find many OLED commercial displays on the market due to the image retention/burn-in that they suffer. I'm just demonstrating that professional/commercial displays are plentiful and reasonably affordable. When I bought my TV/display for my living room, I shopped around for a commercial monitor instead of a traditional TV. I ended up settling with a Philips unit. Very few bells and whistles. All it needs to do is display an image and display it properly with high quality. It does that one job very well.
I think the point was that enterprise screens or signage don't offer a proper substitute for the current smart TV offerings. You'll need to compromise on more than one quality to lose the cursed smart part. I wouldn't buy anything not OLED for example. The technology is there and good enough.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 02:58:21 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #232 on: November 13, 2019, 02:57:32 pm »
True but this as you stated and right, are not equipments tailored to be sold to the common end consumer who wants to hook up a HDMI box and watch Netflix or have a Plex Streaming Server at home.

This are equipments suited for companies to be used in video walls for monitoring and for commerce Ad showing. And it interests to people like us, EE and ITs who have different needs. And most of us work in companies who had a sales department and for sure can try if you want to own one to the manufacture to sell one as a test with the chance to buy more in the future if it fulfils the need. That's how I bought most of the test equipment I own and also IT equipment, just calling out companies in name of the company I worked in the moment (of course with the authorization from the higher ups) or asking the sale department "friend" to ask for quotation in the resellers and manufactures who worked with.

That way you can get sometimes a healthy discount and even some times they provide with samples for you to test and if it's what you need you just need to ask how much will cost you to keep it, and normally that includes a minimum of 10% discount. My 289 was bought that way, my Zenbook was bought that way, my old workstation parts were bought with 20% discount on the final price because it was a reseller/distributor we worked a lot and had an account with for years...

If you really want one, and don't have the problem to pay a little more that the normal run of the mill TV sold on Walmart, you will find a way.
Buying personal items at a discount from an existing business relation is getting into murky territory. Many companies have rules against this and in some sectors it's straight up outlawed.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #233 on: November 13, 2019, 04:45:41 pm »
True but this as you stated and right, are not equipments tailored to be sold to the common end consumer who wants to hook up a HDMI box and watch Netflix or have a Plex Streaming Server at home.

This are equipments suited for companies to be used in video walls for monitoring and for commerce Ad showing. And it interests to people like us, EE and ITs who have different needs. And most of us work in companies who had a sales department and for sure can try if you want to own one to the manufacture to sell one as a test with the chance to buy more in the future if it fulfils the need. That's how I bought most of the test equipment I own and also IT equipment, just calling out companies in name of the company I worked in the moment (of course with the authorization from the higher ups) or asking the sale department "friend" to ask for quotation in the resellers and manufactures who worked with.

That way you can get sometimes a healthy discount and even some times they provide with samples for you to test and if it's what you need you just need to ask how much will cost you to keep it, and normally that includes a minimum of 10% discount. My 289 was bought that way, my Zenbook was bought that way, my old workstation parts were bought with 20% discount on the final price because it was a reseller/distributor we worked a lot and had an account with for years...

If you really want one, and don't have the problem to pay a little more that the normal run of the mill TV sold on Walmart, you will find a way.
Buying personal items at a discount from an existing business relation is getting into murky territory. Many companies have rules against this and in some sectors it's straight up outlawed.

Yeah even without a discount most companies will not let employees buy stuff through the company for personal use.  They usually have policies against that.  Even stuff that's being discarded is often not allowed to go to employees.  Sometimes it is, but it tends to be a really gray area and be hush hush.

Would be nice if sellers of this sort of thing just had a shopping cart interface like any other site though.  It's not that hard to setup, even if they only sell a few to consumers, it does not cost anything extra to make it available.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #234 on: November 13, 2019, 04:54:21 pm »
True but this as you stated and right, are not equipments tailored to be sold to the common end consumer who wants to hook up a HDMI box and watch Netflix or have a Plex Streaming Server at home.

This are equipments suited for companies to be used in video walls for monitoring and for commerce Ad showing. And it interests to people like us, EE and ITs who have different needs. And most of us work in companies who had a sales department and for sure can try if you want to own one to the manufacture to sell one as a test with the chance to buy more in the future if it fulfils the need. That's how I bought most of the test equipment I own and also IT equipment, just calling out companies in name of the company I worked in the moment (of course with the authorization from the higher ups) or asking the sale department "friend" to ask for quotation in the resellers and manufactures who worked with.

That way you can get sometimes a healthy discount and even some times they provide with samples for you to test and if it's what you need you just need to ask how much will cost you to keep it, and normally that includes a minimum of 10% discount. My 289 was bought that way, my Zenbook was bought that way, my old workstation parts were bought with 20% discount on the final price because it was a reseller/distributor we worked a lot and had an account with for years...

If you really want one, and don't have the problem to pay a little more that the normal run of the mill TV sold on Walmart, you will find a way.
Buying personal items at a discount from an existing business relation is getting into murky territory. Many companies have rules against this and in some sectors it's straight up outlawed.

Yeah even without a discount most companies will not let employees buy stuff through the company for personal use.  They usually have policies against that.  Even stuff that's being discarded is often not allowed to go to employees.  Sometimes it is, but it tends to be a really gray area and be hush hush.

Would be nice if sellers of this sort of thing just had a shopping cart interface like any other site though.  It's not that hard to setup, even if they only sell a few to consumers, it does not cost anything extra to make it available.

I think this depends a lot on local tax laws and the like.  I worked for a company that actually encouraged employees to book personal travel through the company and get the corporate discount on airfare, rental cars and lodging.  The logic was that their discount was based on volume and additional volume reduced their costs.  From a legal and ethical standpoint it isn't different than the employee discount offered by many companies.

This could be very different if the corporate channel avoided sales or VAT taxes, or if the corporate channel specifically had different warranty and support provisions than the consumer channel goods.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #235 on: November 13, 2019, 04:57:13 pm »
Yeah even without a discount most companies will not let employees buy stuff through the company for personal use.  They usually have policies against that.  Even stuff that's being discarded is often not allowed to go to employees.  Sometimes it is, but it tends to be a really gray area and be hush hush.

Would be nice if sellers of this sort of thing just had a shopping cart interface like any other site though.  It's not that hard to setup, even if they only sell a few to consumers, it does not cost anything extra to make it available.
The discount is an issue. Giving you personal perks may influence or cloud your judgement when ordering for the company or when choosing between competitors. The definition of bribery is "the act of giving or receiving something of value in exchange for some kind of influence or action in return". You don't want any doubt about your motives. As mentioned before these things are explicitly banned or regulated in some sectors for exactly those reasons.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #236 on: November 13, 2019, 05:21:16 pm »
Quote
Even stuff that's being discarded is often not allowed to go to employees.

The main reason for that (it's a biggy in retail) is because your employees start deliebrately wasting stuff so it's discarded and they get it cheap, or taking care of the cardboard packaging (so they can snaffle it) instead of just ripping it off and getting the job done quick. It's also simpler all around if you don't exclude edge cases, hence this sort of rule sometimes applies where it perhaps logically wouldn't.


 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #237 on: November 13, 2019, 06:51:16 pm »
I'll have to disagree. Many manufacturers, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, NEC, Philips and others produce commercial displays without the "smart" nonsense and many of them are actually reasonably priced. You generally will pay a bit more as they are displays which are designed for continuous operation or have other improvements over consumer models but even still, it's not unusual to find large commercial 4K displays for well under AUD$2000.
Most of those aren't OLED. LG has them but I don't think those are anywhere near the $2000 mark.

Large OLED panels are still hugely expensive. Smart crap included or not, a typical and worthwhile 55" OLED TV set is currently more around $3000. You can currently find ones at $2000 or so (LG for instance), but those are the really bottom-end of the OLED series and I've read many bad reviews about those.

Now if you're fine with a 4K LCD IPS panel, there's currently the ACER EB550K, a 4K, 55" LCD IPS panel as a raw monitor, that can be had for about 900€ currently. Sure you can find TV sets with similar panels (although usually not IPS nor as fast, this one is 4ms) for less than that, but not by a huge margin either.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 06:58:47 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #238 on: November 13, 2019, 07:09:34 pm »
Large OLED panels are still hugely expensive. Smart crap included or not, a typical and worthwhile 55" OLED TV set is currently more around $3000. You can currently find ones at $2000 or so (LG for instance), but those are the really bottom-end of the OLED series and I've read many bad reviews about those.

Now if you're fine with a 4K LCD IPS panel, there's currently the ACER EB550K, a 4K, 55" LCD IPS panel as a raw monitor, that can be had for about 900€ currently. Sure you can find TV sets with similar panels (although usually not IPS nor as fast, this one is 4ms) for less than that, but not by a huge margin either.
The LG OLED screens are quite popular as they provide great value for money. LG has pretty much dominated the OLED market from the start. The price can vary quite a bit but should be somewhere between the 1K and 2K mark. Can be closer to 1K if you look carefully.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 07:22:14 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #239 on: November 13, 2019, 09:38:35 pm »
Sure, but you can go shopping around for what you need. You probably won't find many OLED commercial displays on the market due to the image retention/burn-in that they suffer. I'm just demonstrating that professional/commercial displays are plentiful and reasonably affordable. When I bought my TV/display for my living room, I shopped around for a commercial monitor instead of a traditional TV. I ended up settling with a Philips unit. Very few bells and whistles. All it needs to do is display an image and display it properly with high quality. It does that one job very well.
I think the point was that enterprise screens or signage don't offer a proper substitute for the current smart TV offerings. You'll need to compromise on more than one quality to lose the cursed smart part. I wouldn't buy anything not OLED for example. The technology is there and good enough.

That comes down to your personal preference and what you're after. In some ways you're compromising on quality or features by buying consumer-grade. For example, most consumer models won't come with RS-232 or Ethernet control (increasingly important for home automation/home theatre set ups). Personally, I deliberately wanted a non-OLED display with non-smart features, to me, that wasn't a compromise at all (quite the opposite in fact). As with most things, you get what you pay for.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...
« Reply #240 on: November 13, 2019, 10:40:42 pm »
That comes down to your personal preference and what you're after. In some ways you're compromising on quality or features by buying consumer-grade. For example, most consumer models won't come with RS-232 or Ethernet control (increasingly important for home automation/home theatre set ups). Personally, I deliberately wanted a non-OLED display with non-smart features, to me, that wasn't a compromise at all (quite the opposite in fact). As with most things, you get what you pay for.
I'm all for enterprise grade but combining that with OLED and somewhat affordable doesn't currently seem attainable. Being stuck with outdated technology that never was great doesn't seem appealing either.
 

Offline BravoV

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Yet another fine example ...

-> Spectrum Kills Home Security Business, Refuses Refunds for Owners of Now-Worthless Equipment

Just worry if the abandoned devices, posed a security risks for unawared owners.
 
The following users thanked this post: bd139

Offline Mr. Scram

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Yet another fine example ...

-> Spectrum Kills Home Security Business, Refuses Refunds for Owners of Now-Worthless Equipment

Just worry if the abandoned devices, posed a security risks for unawared owners.
I love how their solution is essentially having the customer dig himself into another third part dependent hole.
 

Online bd139

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Probably got a cash backhander for that advice. I know a company that bought a competitor and just closed them down instantly just so they could move the customers over to their inferior product to milk them. They also charged them an expensive migration fee.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Not completely the same but related:

Quote
A message appears on your TV: Netflix will no longer be available on this device

[Updated 11/8/19] Netflix has announced that due to technical limitations, as of December 2, 2019, the Netflix streaming service will no longer be
supported on several consumer electronics devices, including some from Samsung. This change will impact select 2010 and 2011 Samsung Smart
TV models that were sold in the U.S. and Canada. Affected devices will receive a notification reflecting this change.

https://www.samsung.com/us/support/troubleshooting/TSG01203568/?CID=afl-ecomm-cjn-cha-092118-52057&cjevent=4c0bfd9a026511ea8052014e0a180512

My WD-TV set-top box was one of the affected.

I have been waiting for a reason to cut Netflix anyhow - don't like them, they are too political.  So I was glad to cut them out.  Youtube long since cut support for that.  Now the only job it does is for DVD on ISO, and an old version ofTuneIn which has ads other than whatever the radio station put out - I rather like that.

 

Online bd139

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Sony did that to me years ago. YouTube went. Now I just steal all my content.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Now I just steal all my content.

Copyright infringement doesn't amount to stealing/larceny (according to Australian courts). It's a civil matter between you and the content creators.  :-+
 

Online bd139

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That’s good to hear. Getting quite litigious here. The media companies are tracking peer IP addresses on torrents these days and contacting the ISPs who send you an email. Three strikes policy apparently.

This was enough that modify my behaviour slightly. Good job there  are so many third party streaming services though that you just hit one and it’s TLS end to end and various browser plugins to pull the raw stream :-// meh. There are some advantages to the cloud after all  :-DD
 

Offline Karel

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cough...vpn...cough
 

Online bd139

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VPN isn’t really a solution. They’re all shonky as fuck and run by morons. Also your behaviour on the end of it betrays you (cookies etc)
 

Offline BravoV

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Yep, don't be too complacent with VPN, just because the provider "claimed" they won't betray their customer.

Essentially the provider says ... "Trust us, because we said so ...".

Online bd139

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VPN providers have to pay for traffic and transit which means it's expensive to run a VPN service. They are a race to the bottom industry at the same time so every cost cut and corner is cut. That leads to shitballs such as NordVPN who:

Get hacked and sat on it for months: https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/21/nordvpn-confirms-it-was-hacked/

Use dubious and unethical endpoints for traffic exits: https://medium.com/@derek./how-is-nordvpn-unblocking-disney-6c51045dbc30

Fucking nightmare companies.
 

Online ebastler

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Sony did that to me years ago. YouTube went. Now I just steal all my content.

Where do you steal your Youtube content?