Author Topic: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)  (Read 13382 times)

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Offline 3db

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2017, 11:38:35 pm »
@rob77

KVM will never run windows without QEMU.
The rest of your "solutions" are doing exactly the same thing that I mention in my post.
I'm not saying that ZFS is the answer to everything.
I AM saying that ZFS provides the most data integrity.

3DB.

i'm glad to hear you stopped talking about virtualization on freenas  :-+ that was really misleading.

regarding the other stuff... yes KVM HVM is using QEMU to provide BIOS and virtual hardware to the HVM, i never said the opposite. in fact when anyone is talking about KVM hardware virtual machines (HVM) then it's always about KVM-quemu but everyone says just KVM. (and it's a completely different scenario than your BSD + virtualbox or BSD + anything else).
and ZFS  has the most features built in into a filesystem, so you don't need other technologies to provide redundancy because you have it directly in the filesystem. but you can't say it provides the most data integrity.... because other solutions are providing the same level of data integrity by combining several technologies (e.g. raid + logical volume manager + journaling filesystem).

so for the NAS solution itself.. if you use freenas then it's ZFS because freenas is using ZFS.,.. if you plan to build your own NAS solution, then it's matter of discussion what solution is the best...
if you plan to provide pure file system services - samba or NFS mounts.. then ZFS is a very good candidate.
if you plan to run full virtual machines (different OS in a VM) then raid + LVM is the way to go... because you can provide raw block devices (LVs) to the VMs while use another LVs for samba and NFS filesystems.

If you want to make a really good job of it you could use Freenas 10 which includes  BHYVE so that you could use ZFS and virtualisation   :D
If you wanted to get real serious you could use Proxmox with Ceph and Freenas using ISCSI which would give serious performance and distributed storage. >:D
I'm talking more than one box here.
The reason I like Freenas is BECAUSE it uses ZFS and it's easy to use.
If you are talking about HBA's doing the RAID ie Adaptec LSI etc then I couldn't disagree more.
You are aware that a ZFS ZVOL is seen as a block device and that ZFS is best using an HBA that gives RAW access to the disks ?
Have you checked out IxSystems website lately ?
3DB

 
 
Joking apart I'm a huge fan of ZFS mainly because of the data integrity.
It does have a few drawbacks but it's mature and has a proven track reccord

 

Offline rob77

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2017, 01:35:00 am »
You are aware that a ZFS ZVOL is seen as a block device.

yes i'm aware of it... and i don't like the fact those volumes are spread across the disks interleaved with other data... good luck reconstructing the data in case of need ;) LVM is much more controllable, actually you have full control and you know exactly which volume is where on the disks (helps a lot during data recovery).

i'm not saying ZFS is bad.. just saying it's not the best choice for everything. and definitely it's only suitable for solaris and BSD based systems. the linux implementation doesn't seem very convincing yet.

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2017, 05:06:48 am »
With the HP N54L now secured, the next step is to get some drives.  Interestingly, as well as the 4 bays, there is an additional SATA port on the motherboard and an eSata port on the back panel.  There is space for two extra 3.5" drives (or smaller) and means to route power and signal cables.  So, all up we have the capability to run 6 drives, plus there is an internal USB port ready to use.  For drives, I am thinking of four (or maybe 5) 4TB HDD plus an SSD of appropriate size for 'stuff' to drive it all.

The drive selection isn't a big issue for me - but knowing what 'stuff' to install is another story.

Certainly, I will want the 4TB drives to be available as NAS storage to the network (hopefully with security configuration options), but it is clear from my musings on the subject that I need to plan now for the future.

In that future I'm seeing VM - and I'm wondering what I am getting myself into.  Choosing a suitable path is the key issue, since I have next to zero knowledge on the subject.

At this point, the potential wish list looks something like this:
* NAS
* Webserver running Apache, PHP and a few other things
* SQL server (to be used with above webserver (but I might look at remote SQL)

I understand there may be a performance issue, but the load is likely to be very light for the majority of the time.  So long as things work and are stable, performance is not too big of an issue (unless it's woeful, of course).

This whole exercise will be my introduction to the server world and I am hoping it will give me insight so I will be better placed to make my own assessments and decisions.


So, I am now wondering what VM path I should start off with...?


EDIT:  As this isn't a computer forum, I know I am stretching the friendship a bit - but as stated earlier, I am after helpful input from engineering minds, not the full geek experience.  I have had a couple of PMs from members who are sensitive to this ... and if this thread gets unwieldy, I will retreat to the PM route.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 05:14:06 am by Brumby »
 

Offline 3db

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2017, 06:26:30 am »
@Brumby
If you are unfamiliar with virtualisation you could have a play with desktop products such as  Oracle's Virtualbox  or VMware's VMPlayer.
You can install either of these on a windows machine and both are available for free.

3DB
 

Offline 3db

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2017, 06:34:59 am »
You are aware that a ZFS ZVOL is seen as a block device.

yes i'm aware of it... and i don't like the fact those volumes are spread across the disks interleaved with other data... good luck reconstructing the data in case of need ;) LVM is much more controllable, actually you have full control and you know exactly which volume is where on the disks (helps a lot during data recovery).

i'm not saying ZFS is bad.. just saying it's not the best choice for everything. and definitely it's only suitable for solaris and BSD based systems. the linux implementation doesn't seem very convincing yet.

I think it's best if we just agree to disagree and leave it at that. :-+

3DB

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2017, 07:38:39 am »
@Brumby
If you are unfamiliar with virtualisation you could have a play with desktop products such as  Oracle's Virtualbox  or VMware's VMPlayer.
You can install either of these on a windows machine and both are available for free.

3DB

I'm not against that idea - but I was hoping to get some recommendations for a VM platform to start with that might be suggested by my intentions and hardware.  I would love to be in the situation where I understood the pros and cons of various products - but I would like to get an experienced opinion to give me a head start.
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2017, 10:48:46 am »
ESXi

Mine boots from a USB stick for which there is a motherboard socket on mine.

ESXi was and probably still is free for 1 server

(You should try and get a good amount of memory in it if you plan to run VMs)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 10:52:27 am by NivagSwerdna »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2017, 11:31:08 am »
(You should try and get a good amount of memory in it if you plan to run VMs)

The system is already maxed out at 8GB (ECC RAM).
 

Offline technix

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2017, 11:33:26 am »
ESXi

Mine boots from a USB stick for which there is a motherboard socket on mine.

ESXi was and probably still is free for 1 server

(You should try and get a good amount of memory in it if you plan to run VMs)
I second this. ESXi is still free and probably will stay so. In fact even free license ESXi can still join vSphere, just without a lot of nice features.

One of the goal of me getting two Broadcom MegaRAID 9271-8iCC to replace my Microsemi Adaptec 6805 and Broadcom 3ware 9750-8i is for better ESXi compatibility. I am upgrading my NAS/router combo machine and a spare server, both DIY jobs, to fit ESXi on them. It is quite risky to put the router and the NAS under the same kernel.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2017, 12:56:16 pm »
(You should try and get a good amount of memory in it if you plan to run VMs)

The system is already maxed out at 8GB (ECC RAM).

if you choose to install a linux system, then 8GB is more than enough for NAS features and VMs. i have a N40L with 8G running 2 VMs a bunch of other services and still have lot of memory for file cache (in other words unused).

if you choose freenas with memory hungry ZFS, then the 8G will be just enough (actually they state on their page that 8G is the absolute minimum and 16GB RAM is the recommended minimum).
 

Online rdl

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2017, 02:44:36 pm »
You have a near perfect home FreeNAS machine, just set it up and forget about it. Buy something else to play around with all the virtualization stuff. 8 GB should be plenty as long as you don't use deduplication.

 
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Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2017, 03:46:52 pm »
You have a near perfect home FreeNAS machine, just set it up and forget about it. Buy something else to play around with all the virtualization stuff. 8 GB should be plenty as long as you don't use deduplication.
You have a near perfect ESXi VM server.  Buy a Synology NAS, plug it in and forget about it for your file sharing.  :-DD
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2017, 03:59:25 pm »
(You should try and get a good amount of memory in it if you plan to run VMs)

The system is already maxed out at 8GB (ECC RAM).

It will take 16.
 

Online rdl

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2017, 04:25:29 pm »
I decided a commercial solution was not my best choice. Spend more to get less doesn't usually work well for me. It may be fine for an average consumer. Something with flexibility that was more or less hardware agnostic seemed to have advantages in case future needs changed. Plus, I already had the Microserver and no other use for it at the time.  :)
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2017, 01:19:36 am »
(You should try and get a good amount of memory in it if you plan to run VMs)

The system is already maxed out at 8GB (ECC RAM).

It will take 16.

I've seen this.  I've also noted that it can be flaky, with varying RAM chips - from not working to working for a while and then having the server lock up to being OK.  Being outside the manufacturer's published specs makes me wary.  A suggested pair of Kingston sticks is going to set me back more than $250 - which is a pricey experiment.  It might be an option down the track, but right now it's just not in the budget.

EDIT: Just making a note of the RAM recommendation I've come across for this:
Kingston KVR1333D3E9SK2/16G   (for possible future reference)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:58:31 am by Brumby »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2017, 01:39:55 am »
Also, buying extra boxes is not a consideration at this time.

The box I have is primarily for NAS, so it must do this - but I want flexibility options.  The VM approach appeals to me.

NAS is where it will start and other VMs can be added progressively a bit further down the track.  Load will increase gradually, so there should not be any sudden impacts.  Even then, the current environment is one of a very small user base across all envisaged VMs.

The one box solution - and, yes, I understand there may well be compromises - is where things need to be right now.
 

Online rdl

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2017, 06:25:29 am »
There are altered BIOS for the G7 Microservers out there. I think one allows 16 GB of RAM and a few other things. The stock BIOS, if I remember right, was iffy with 16 GB. Maybe it would work and maybe not depending on the source. For my purposes, I prefer non-modified. I would not trust a pre-installed OS either, just paranoid I guess.

When I built my FreeNAS box last fall I bought 2x 4 GB from Crucial for $55.99 (CT5194093). It's now $90 for the pair, too much for an experiment I think, but I guess it was a good deal at the time.

Useless to someone outside the US probably, but Newegg has had some great deals on Western Digital HDDs recently. WD must be coming out with new models. $49 for a 1 TB Blue was hard to pass up even if I didn't need any.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2017, 08:52:05 am »
Checked the BIOS:
BIOS ID      :041
BIOS Version      :10/01/2013

From what I have seen so far, this seems to have the fix for hot-swap.  Not sure what else...
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2017, 04:13:40 am »
As well as the above recommendations, I've seen a number of references to ESXi being used.  Would it be fair to say it would not be the worst choice for a bare-metal hypervisor for my N54L?

I've also seen Proxmox mentioned - which is open source.

Any thoughts between the two?  (Reading comparison reports and opinions is not particularly helpful, since I don't have an appreciation for half of what is said.)


Remember, while I am looking for something useful - I am expecting a bit of a learning curve.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 04:24:10 am by Brumby »
 

Offline rob77

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2017, 09:18:53 am »
i wouldn't go for bare metal hypervisor.. i would definitely go for host based virtualization (KVM, Xen, virtualbox, vmware player/workstation) and run the core services on the host itself while running only the stuff which needs to be separated in VMs (VPN, testing out stuff... etc..)
with ESXi you're pretty limited and to be honest i can't see any benefit, just disadvantages... you need a boot device for ESXi or use one of the disks, you can't do software raid with ESXi - you would have to map the whole disks to one VM and do the raid there and left with no disks for other VMs, or you would need a RAID controller to do the raid in HW and then let the ESXi use the volume for a datastore... furthermore you can't do any network "magic" with ESXi - you can't even do a simple NAT, you would have to run a VM which would act as a router doing the NAT.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2017, 09:44:03 am »
These are some of the questions I wouldn't know to ask.

Thank you.
 

Offline 3db

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2017, 01:00:11 pm »
@Brumby
How much RAM do you have on your computer ?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2017, 02:16:48 pm »
On the N54L: 8GB ECC

Two of these:
 


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