Author Topic: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils  (Read 5308 times)

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Offline tautech

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2023, 01:35:41 am »
Interestingly, the petrol mower which worked properly was an old 1960s "Rover" with an Oz made 4 stroke engine of unknown provenance.

It also had, as was common in those days in this country, a starter handle with which you wound up a large spring, then folded the handle down & bashed it on the top to start.
It would deliver all the stored energy in the spring very quickly, spinning the engine up to speed fast, almost always starting properly.
IIRC that probably was an early Tecumseh and likely with an ordinary carby.
Later most went to diaphragm carbs that used intake pulses to work the diaphragm to lift fuel from the tank into the carb fuel bowl.
Some even used the diaphragm to control the choking system for starting and if not set a certain way on reassembly wouldn't work correctly.

More we have to talk about when we get together at Xmas.  ;)
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2023, 02:36:18 am »
For the 2-strokes,  I was using Yamalube but now Lucas goes in everything.  When I was growing up riding dirt bikes, mostly I used Golden Spectro.   
There are different lubrication requirements for 2 strokes if they are:
Air cooled
Water cooled
Marine cooled.

They each have a different lubrication spec for the heat ranges they operate within.
Run any water cooled 2 stroke oil in an aircooled 2 stroke engine at your peril.

Water cooled leaf blower?  Mower?  Weed whacker?   LOL!!!   Dirt bikes in my day were Hodaka Ace Super Rat ...  Water cooled wasn't a thing.   As a matter of fact, I knew a guy who knew a guy who built and raced for Yamaha who made one of the first water cooled 2-strokes.   Cutting edge stuff. 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2023, 02:42:19 am »
.   Hard to beat the power density of gasoline.   
I am sure your neighbors love the noise and stinking fumes.

Are you my neighbor?  If not, how can you be sure of anything? 

Offline tautech

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2023, 03:53:18 am »
For the 2-strokes,  I was using Yamalube but now Lucas goes in everything.  When I was growing up riding dirt bikes, mostly I used Golden Spectro.   
There are different lubrication requirements for 2 strokes if they are:
Air cooled
Water cooled
Marine cooled.

They each have a different lubrication spec for the heat ranges they operate within.
Run any water cooled 2 stroke oil in an aircooled 2 stroke engine at your peril.

Water cooled leaf blower?  Mower?  Weed whacker?   LOL!!!   Dirt bikes in my day were Hodaka Ace Super Rat ...  Water cooled wasn't a thing.   As a matter of fact, I knew a guy who knew a guy who built and raced for Yamaha who made one of the first water cooled 2-strokes.   Cutting edge stuff.
I listed all 3 as they are each distinctly different but in fact air cooled can be broken into 2 further categories, those that are wind cooled as a motorike is and fan cooled as portable 2 stroke tools are; chainsaws, trimmers, hedgecutters, concrete cutters etc.

While lubricants to suit many 2 stroke types are available, none are expressly formulated for all.
I use 2, air cooled and that recommend for outboards of which there are also premix and auto inject formulations.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2023, 07:30:35 am »
For the 2-strokes,  I was using Yamalube but now Lucas goes in everything.  When I was growing up riding dirt bikes, mostly I used Golden Spectro.   
There are different lubrication requirements for 2 strokes if they are:
Air cooled
Water cooled
Marine cooled.

They each have a different lubrication spec for the heat ranges they operate within.
Run any water cooled 2 stroke oil in an aircooled 2 stroke engine at your peril.

Water cooled leaf blower?  Mower?  Weed whacker?   LOL!!!   Dirt bikes in my day were Hodaka Ace Super Rat ...  Water cooled wasn't a thing.   As a matter of fact, I knew a guy who knew a guy who built and raced for Yamaha who made one of the first water cooled 2-strokes.   Cutting edge stuff.
I listed all 3 as they are each distinctly different but in fact air cooled can be broken into 2 further categories, those that are wind cooled as a motorike is and fan cooled as portable 2 stroke tools are; chainsaws, trimmers, hedgecutters, concrete cutters etc.

While lubricants to suit many 2 stroke types are available, none are expressly formulated for all.
I use 2, air cooled and that recommend for outboards of which there are also premix and auto inject formulations.

I have not owned an air cooled 2-stroke bike in I would guess at least 40 years.  I think the last air cooled 2-stroke I owned was a sled. It had a fan but the heads came up through the hood.  I would guess that was at least 40 years ago too.   I've yet to own a boat, so no concerns there.   

We did have an old  Detroit 2-stroke, supercharged + turbo.  I doubt any of the oils your thinking of would have worked.   I used to play with model air plains when I was a kid.  All of them were 2-stroke.  One was a diesel.  Guessing these would all be in their own distinct category as well but nothing that concerns me.

Anything I own is fan cooled.  All running the same oil.  Guessing I have been using Lucas at least 10 years now.  I'll let you know when one of my 2-strokes finally dies.  The oldest one that gets any use is the mower.   It's a good test case.   

***
Thinking of categories, how many does Siglent have for encoders?  Do they offer higher grade for some equipment and lower grade for others, or is it a one size fits all and they are all poor?   Seems I asked this before and you didn't respond.   Had you told me the higher end arbs offered a working encoder, I would have pulled the trigger on one for home but with the lack of any feedback, I assumed they use the same poor part.   Seems the advice was use the buttons.   :palm: 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 07:39:14 am by joeqsmith »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2023, 08:38:32 am »
For the 2-strokes,  I was using Yamalube but now Lucas goes in everything.  When I was growing up riding dirt bikes, mostly I used Golden Spectro.   
There are different lubrication requirements for 2 strokes if they are:
Air cooled
Water cooled
Marine cooled.

They each have a different lubrication spec for the heat ranges they operate within.
Run any water cooled 2 stroke oil in an aircooled 2 stroke engine at your peril.

Water cooled leaf blower?  Mower?  Weed whacker?   LOL!!!   Dirt bikes in my day were Hodaka Ace Super Rat ...  Water cooled wasn't a thing.   As a matter of fact, I knew a guy who knew a guy who built and raced for Yamaha who made one of the first water cooled 2-strokes.   Cutting edge stuff.
I listed all 3 as they are each distinctly different but in fact air cooled can be broken into 2 further categories, those that are wind cooled as a motorike is and fan cooled as portable 2 stroke tools are; chainsaws, trimmers, hedgecutters, concrete cutters etc.

While lubricants to suit many 2 stroke types are available, none are expressly formulated for all.
I use 2, air cooled and that recommend for outboards of which there are also premix and auto inject formulations.

I have not owned an air cooled 2-stroke bike in I would guess at least 40 years.
About then when I sold my last road bike, A Suzuki 250 GT X7 twin one of the last variants they produced after becoming the first 250cc production bike capable of 100mph. Had mine up there a few times.
Quote
We did have an old  Detroit 2-stroke, supercharged + turbo.  I doubt any of the oils your thinking of would have worked.
Of course not, that Detroit is a diesel and requires a high detergent diesel oil.
Quote
I used to play with model air plains when I was a kid.  All of them were 2-stroke.  One was a diesel.  Guessing these would all be in their own distinct category as well but nothing that concerns me.
Typically they used Castor oils as a lubricant when I fiddled with such stuff too several decades ago.
Quote
Anything I own is fan cooled.  All running the same oil.  Guessing I have been using Lucas at least 10 years now.  I'll let you know when one of my 2-strokes finally dies.  The oldest one that gets any use is the mower.   It's a good test case.
Then they'll all use a similarly rated oil albeit at different mix ratios however I try to simplify these using only a couple of mix ratios, 24:1 and 32:1 to cover an old 2 stroke mower, my big boy chainsaw (120cc) a trimmer, and 3 other saws.

Please excuse Joe for going OT
Quote
Thinking of categories, how many does Siglent have for encoders?  Do they offer higher grade for some equipment and lower grade for others, or is it a one size fits all and they are all poor?   Seems I asked this before and you didn't respond.   Had you told me the higher end arbs offered a working encoder, I would have pulled the trigger on one for home but with the lack of any feedback, I assumed they use the same poor part.   Seems the advice was use the buttons.   :palm:
It's not an encoder problem but a SW problem as the encoder polling on SDG models is too slow to combat Joe's high speed life.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2023, 10:37:37 am »
Joe, rather than run total loss combustion chamber lube in rotary engines, when racing 2 stroke oils are used as seen done here by my neighbor setting a NZ record a few years back.



AFAIK it still stands today.
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Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2023, 11:58:43 am »
Both my mower and line trimmer take the same oil, so it's easier just to keep a larger bottle on-hand.
How so ?
If your trimmer a 4 stroke ?

Yep.

Both Honda engines. Both take 10W-30 "high detergent" oil of API SJ grade or higher. So even a semi-synthetic should be fine for both purposes. I'm not buying two types of oil.

The line trimmer manual specifically states in big bold text: "Using nondetergent oil or 2-stroke engine oil could shorten the engine's service life".
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 12:08:40 pm by Halcyon »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2023, 12:21:17 pm »
I had a one of the Suzuki GT ram air triples.   My last air cooled 2-stroke was a Kaw triple 500 w/ expansion chambers.   

Quote
Of course not, that Detroit is a diesel and requires a high detergent diesel oil.
Bigger difference, we are not blending oil into the fuel to act as a lubricant like all of my 2-strokes.     

Quote
Typically they used Castor oils as a lubricant when I fiddled with such stuff too several decades ago.
I don't remember if I had to mix anything in that toy diesel or not.   You had an adjustment for the CR and a way to add heat. 

I mix them the same, rich.  I'll take smoke over a damaged engine any day.   All of the ones I own use a carb.

Quote
It's not an encoder problem but a SW problem as the encoder polling on SDG models is too slow to combat Joe's high speed life.
And here I thought I was being slow with it.   I wonder when they did the system design, did marketing, EE management or quality control think it was good enough.

Quote
my neighbor setting a NZ record a few years back

8.66 @ 153 in what distance do you use over there?   

Been following a channel where they are attempting to reassemble a 12-rotor boat motor.  It's the size of a big-block.   There are videos of the owner/designer running it.

Offline BrokenYugo

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2023, 07:48:31 pm »
I use cheap 15w40 turbodiesel oil for all air cooled stuff that only gets used above freezing, works great.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2023, 08:01:31 pm »
Quote
Of course not, that Detroit is a diesel and requires a high detergent diesel oil.
Bigger difference, we are not blending oil into the fuel to act as a lubricant like all of my 2-strokes.
Diesel itself is an upper cylinder lubricant so only the bottom end requires lubrication.
All large ship engines are 2 stroke semi-diesels running on fuels more like crude oil than anything refined we consumers use. 2 stroke diesels have come in several types over the decades and one popular when I was young was the English Commer T3 horizontally opposed 3cyl truck engine.

Quote
Typically they used Castor oils as a lubricant when I fiddled with such stuff too several decades ago.
I don't remember if I had to mix anything in that toy diesel or not.   You had an adjustment for the CR and a way to add heat.  [/quote]
Yet here we didn't need to heat them, only reduce compression some to start, unlike the gloplug model engines.

Quote
I mix them the same, rich.  I'll take smoke over a damaged engine any day.   All of the ones I own use a carb.
Amen to that. At 40:1 I start getting nervous and 50:1 well just  :scared:

Quote
It's not an encoder problem but a SW problem as the encoder polling on SDG models is too slow to combat Joe's high speed life.
And here I thought I was being slow with it.   I wonder when they did the system design, did marketing, EE management or quality control think it was good enough. [/quote]
Obviously, however they are getting flack for it now from me as a user/dealer but not for normal use where certainly it could be better, but for related encoder usage when it is way suboptimal.

Quote
my neighbor setting a NZ record a few years back

8.66 @ 153 in what distance do you use over there?   [/quote]
1/4 mile, 440yds. AFAIK we don't have any shortened strips here.
12A is the older low capacity 2 rotor engine however that one was running Methanol with 40lbs of boost.
Not sure how it dynoed but it will be approaching 800hp.

Quote
Been following a channel where they are attempting to reassemble a 12-rotor boat motor.  It's the size of a big-block.   There are videos of the owner/designer running it.
Leading edge builds are always fun and good luck to him.

3 rotor builds are common as they were a std Mazda build known as the 20B that the neighbor pushed to 1400hp to then have all sorts of issues getting it to hold together as it kept breaking from the engine plate at launch so substantial redesigns were needed including billet end plates recessed into the plate and with additional fixings....still a work in progress.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2023, 12:05:00 am »
Diesel itself is an upper cylinder lubricant so only the bottom end requires lubrication.
Indeed, diesel acts as the lubricant.  This was one of the downsides of using methanol.  Great fuel but required mixing in oil.   Then there was draining the system. 

Quote
1/4 mile, 440yds. AFAIK we don't have any shortened strips here.
12A is the older low capacity 2 rotor engine however that one was running Methanol with 40lbs of boost.
Not sure how it dynoed but it will be approaching 800hp.
Nice.  I see most of the bikes are now over 600HP with street tires and no bar.   I doubt any of my bikes are more than 200 when I lean on them.   30 is about the limit for C16 gasoline but currently the bike can run in the 7's with 22PSI.   

Offline tautech

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2023, 12:35:21 am »
Diesel itself is an upper cylinder lubricant so only the bottom end requires lubrication.
Indeed, diesel acts as the lubricant.  This was one of the downsides of using methanol.  Great fuel but required mixing in oil.   Then there was draining the system. 

Quote
1/4 mile, 440yds. AFAIK we don't have any shortened strips here.
12A is the older low capacity 2 rotor engine however that one was running Methanol with 40lbs of boost.
Not sure how it dynoed but it will be approaching 800hp.
Nice.  I see most of the bikes are now over 600HP with street tires and no bar.   I doubt any of my bikes are more than 200 when I lean on them.   30 is about the limit for C16 gasoline but currently the bike can run in the 7's with 22PSI.
Methanol really woke these rotary's up and at one time neighbor only ran C16 in them yet in his first car, a tubbed RX3 with a blown 13B he progressed from 12s runs to just under 10s with only tuning of the chassis.
When that was sorted and further pedalling experience gained engine builds improved for that same car to run 8.66s with another motor.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2023, 12:51:50 am »
Higher boost and cooling over the C16.  I spray a small shot with the bike not having an intercooler.  Drops the temp a fair bit.   

Offline John B

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2023, 01:14:25 am »
Lots of interesting discussion. But I'm surprised that Honda recommends 10w-30 since it will thin out a bit in an air cooled engine, particularly if you're going to be using your petrol equipment in the aussie summer. I run all my 4 stroke small motors on 10w-40, ie mower, mulcher, brushcutter, pressure washer
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2023, 03:19:46 am »
Higher boost and cooling over the C16.  I spray a small shot with the bike not having an intercooler.  Drops the temp a fair bit.
Here we use icebox intercoolers, ice replenished after each pass.

Launch boost is critical too and a 2 step tune provides an ignition cut at max revs and when it comes back ON the unburnt fuel provides a boost lift of a momentary additional 20psi.
Getting that additional boost timed with the launch creates those magic passes.....and breaks stuff if it isn't strong enough.  :-BROKE
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2023, 01:43:51 pm »
Here we use icebox intercoolers, ice replenished after each pass.

Too large for my bike.   The only thing I use ice for is filling the N2O and CO2 tanks.  My street bike uses an intercooler, but its a bit more modern.


Launch boost is critical too and a 2 step tune provides an ignition cut at max revs and when it comes back ON the unburnt fuel provides a boost lift of a momentary additional 20psi.
Getting that additional boost timed with the launch creates those magic passes.....and breaks stuff if it isn't strong enough.  :-BROKE
Yes, that's how its done.  The 2-step is part of my MSD ignition.   It's a balancing act on launch of tire pressure, boost, clutch...   Clutch tuning is a major part.   Boost is about 7PSI at launch.  Very tame.     

***
The parts that would normally break with the bike were transmission gears.   Lots of information out there about heat treating and such.  I had Robinson make a 1-2 auto transmission for me.   The down side with this is you can't chop the throttle until after the first shift if something goes wrong or $$$.   So hang em out there.

My street bike is injected.  The 2-step is done with the primary ECM.   You have the option of cutting fuel, ignition or both.   The primary ECM is stock.  I use ROMRaider to hack it. 

https://github.com/RomRaider/RomRaider

https://www.robinsonindustriesinc.com/
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 02:43:48 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2023, 02:36:55 pm »
I miss the smell of Caster Oil in the 2-stokes I have. But you can never beat the smell of a 2-stroke in the morning, smells like victory. Never knew there was a difference for AC or WC engines, I just bought good quality oil.

I do enjoy some of the utterly useless manuals you get for things. It specifies a brand and part number of the oil but little about what grade of oil it is. Of course the the FB group of the owner doesn't help as they are just as clueless as they have a garage that does the work for them.

I have wondered from time to time if the recommended oil is still the best oil to use. With modern synthetic oils and a different knowledge of oils would the 10w40 that I use on a 30 year old bike actually be better off with a 5w50.
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Offline John B

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2023, 07:30:05 pm »
I do enjoy some of the utterly useless manuals you get for things. It specifies a brand and part number of the oil but little about what grade of oil it is. Of course the the FB group of the owner doesn't help as they are just as clueless as they have a garage that does the work for them.

Over the last several years I've noticed lawn equipment and bicycle getting worse in their documentation and manuals. They used to contain maintenance information and instructions, now everything is "take it to a authorised service centre".

The last example that really pissed me off was the documentation for the shimano brakes on my bicycle. I wanted to find the model number of the pads and the manual wouldn't list them, all said was "take it to a authorised service centre".
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2023, 07:51:08 pm »
Diesel itself is an upper cylinder lubricant so only the bottom end requires lubrication.
All large ship engines are 2 stroke semi-diesels running on fuels more like crude oil than anything refined we consumers use.

only out to sea where sulphur content is less restricted, in restricted areas, close to the coast and in port they run on diesel (gas oil)

a regular four-stroke gasoline engine is also only lubricated at the bottom
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2023, 09:09:41 pm »
Diesel itself is an upper cylinder lubricant so only the bottom end requires lubrication.
...
...
a regular four-stroke gasoline engine is also only lubricated at the bottom

My 4-stroke bike engines pump the oil from the crank to the top end for the cams, lifters....  But yea, I know what you meant. 

Then we get to the guides.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6599345B2/en

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2023, 09:42:24 pm »

Yes, that's how its done.  The 2-step is part of my MSD ignition.   It's a balancing act on launch of tire pressure, boost, clutch...   Clutch tuning is a major part.   Boost is about 7PSI at launch.  Very tame.     

My street bike is injected.  The 2-step is done with the primary ECM.   You have the option of cutting fuel, ignition or both.   The primary ECM is stock.  I use ROMRaider to hack it. 
Not heard of ROMRaider but not at all surprised such equipment has evolved.

One 13B powered Mazda drag car running a MSD setup had ongoing issues they couldn't sort in that it would go off song down the track when boost, fuel and RPM were all near peak and I put a scope on the ECU coil outputs to find one output down enough to have the fire go out when ignition was under high stress.
The complete MSD system got replaced and most here are running Motec or Haltech ECU systems now.

I miss the smell of Caster Oil in the 2-stokes I have. But you can never beat the smell of a 2-stroke in the morning, smells like victory. Never knew there was a difference for AC or WC engines, I just bought good quality oil.
From my experience any 2 stroke oil highly dyed/tinted is to be avoided especially for premix.
We used to run trial mixes of anything new pushed by oil company reps and leave them in sealed glass jars on the windowsill in full sun for at least a month to see if they would turn to gel.

In many ways the problems dyed 2 stroke oils were trying to help with, (visual ID of mix) the dies used instead promoted geling and fuel system clogging not to mention possible degradation of fuel system components.

However as the decades have rolled by better choices of fuel storage containers are now available so to have different colored ones to more simply identify which is a 2 stroke mix.
YMMV
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2023, 11:34:04 pm »
I had an old MSD ignition that you had to insert the resistor to set the 2-step.  It worked fine.  Later switched to their MC1 digital.  I did have one die on me.  I was able to dig out enough potting to troubleshoot it and replace the boost converter IC.  I'm not sure what killed it as the bike uses a total loss system (no charging).   The coils are separate.   

My street bike is using a product from your neck of the woods (Microtech out of Gladesville Australia).   This second system runs in parallel with the original to supply enough fuel to the motor.   Using a Porshe 911 fuel pump on it.

Offline langwadt

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2023, 11:58:45 pm »
Diesel itself is an upper cylinder lubricant so only the bottom end requires lubrication.
...
...
a regular four-stroke gasoline engine is also only lubricated at the bottom

My 4-stroke bike engines pump the oil from the crank to the top end for the cams, lifters....  But yea, I know what you meant. 

big 2-stroke marine diesels also have valves, cams, and lifters ;)
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Question about petrol/gasoline engine oils
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2023, 12:55:26 am »
My street bike is using a product from your neck of the woods (Microtech out of Gladesville Australia).   This second system runs in parallel with the original to supply enough fuel to the motor.   Using a Porshe 911 fuel pump on it.
Yep, forgot about Microtech, anther good product.

In the last decade or 2 technology has offered massive improvement to high performance needs as even low budget teams all have laptops to extract run logs and analyse where improvements are needed and of course the other benefit is identifying race system faults and the conditions that might lead to them.

Such capability would have found the MSD ignition was at fault rather than feedback from the jockey over several meets and runs knowing there was something wrong but what ?
Lucky the guy next door had a DSO and could verify their hunch and capture it.  :)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 


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