Author Topic: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off  (Read 18335 times)

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Offline SteveThackery

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2026, 10:43:17 am »
If MW/LW broadcast infrastructure exists, it naturally implies a corresponding listener base and widespread availability of compatible receivers. This can introduce challenges from a regulatory or information-control perspective, since MW/LW receivers are also capable of picking up foreign broadcasts that are outside local jurisdiction.

From that point of view, reducing or discontinuing such services may gradually discourage the use of MW/LW receivers in favor of more centrally managed distribution channels, such as internet-based platforms. Over time, this leads to a decline in standalone broadcast receivers and a shift toward infrastructure that is inherently easier to regulate or filter.

<SNIP>

As a result, if information control is a concern in a conflict scenario, a more indirect strategy can be used: instead of targeting receivers, broadcast infrastructure itself is gradually reduced or decommissioned. This effectively makes MW/LW receivers less useful over time, encouraging users to abandon them voluntarily rather than requiring any form of direct confiscation.

I'm astonished to read this. The idea that shutting down 198kHz is all about the government wanting to "control" what we can listen to is, in my opinion, ridiculous, paranoid nonsense.

It's about COST! 198kHz is an obsolete service, used by relatively few people, and in any case those users have more modern alternatives. The transmitter at Droitwich occupies prime building land (much like MSF at Rugby did); it uses 500kW of power, day and night, continuously. It is at risk of being unmaintainable: there are fewer than 10 of the output valves left in the whole world.

The BBC has been warning about shutting it down since 2011 because of budget cuts. It makes absolute sense.

PS: The site and transmitter is owned by Arqiva, but of course the BBC will bear all the costs associated with the 198kHz R4 service.
 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2026, 10:58:37 am »
Quote
It's about COST!
wonder if they factored the cost of replacing the ole teleswitchs into the sums
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2026, 11:13:07 am »
Quote
It's about COST!
wonder if they factored the cost of replacing the ole teleswitchs into the sums
Not the BBC's problem.  Teleswitch meters will just run on peak rate all the time.  Customers who want to get off-peak rates back will need to get a smart meter (ooh, scary gubbins).
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2026, 12:00:22 pm »
If MW/LW broadcast infrastructure exists, it naturally implies a corresponding listener base and widespread availability of compatible receivers. This can introduce challenges from a regulatory or information-control perspective, since MW/LW receivers are also capable of picking up foreign broadcasts that are outside local jurisdiction.

From that point of view, reducing or discontinuing such services may gradually discourage the use of MW/LW receivers in favor of more centrally managed distribution channels, such as internet-based platforms. Over time, this leads to a decline in standalone broadcast receivers and a shift toward infrastructure that is inherently easier to regulate or filter.

<SNIP>

As a result, if information control is a concern in a conflict scenario, a more indirect strategy can be used: instead of targeting receivers, broadcast infrastructure itself is gradually reduced or decommissioned. This effectively makes MW/LW receivers less useful over time, encouraging users to abandon them voluntarily rather than requiring any form of direct confiscation.

I'm astonished to read this. The idea that shutting down 198kHz is all about the government wanting to "control" what we can listen to is, in my opinion, ridiculous, paranoid nonsense.

It's about COST! 198kHz is an obsolete service, used by relatively few people, and in any case those users have more modern alternatives. The transmitter at Droitwich occupies prime building land (much like MSF at Rugby did); it uses 500kW of power, day and night, continuously. It is at risk of being unmaintainable: there are fewer than 10 of the output valves left in the whole world.

The BBC has been warning about shutting it down since 2011 because of budget cuts. It makes absolute sense.

PS: The site and transmitter is owned by Arqiva, but of course the BBC will bear all the costs associated with the 198kHz R4 service.
This is long overdue.

AM broadcasting ceased to be commercially viable along time ago. The BBC has only been able to continue because it is a public service broadcaster and doesn't need to turn a profit.

This conspiracy is even more daft because the BBC indirectly government controlled. It depends on its Royal Charter being renewed every 10 years. The idea the BBC shut down 198kHz because they want to control you is just demented.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2026, 12:52:57 pm »
Quote
Not the BBC's problem. 
maybe not,but at the end of the trail the moneys coming from the same pot.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2026, 01:28:04 pm »
Quote
Not the BBC's problem. 
maybe not,but at the end of the trail the moneys coming from the same pot.

No.  The BBC is funded by the licence fee, which is optional if you do not watch live TV or BBC iPlayer.  I do not pay a licence fee for instance as I do not watch live TV any more, only streaming services.  Smart meter rollout is funded by energy suppliers as part of their Ofgem obligations, so funded by a mix of consumers and industry.
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2026, 06:42:45 pm »
The only reason to listen to LW Radio 4 was the fact the cricket was on the whole day. When DAB 5 live sports extra started running the programme that was it. Although there is a guest presenter who will be upset he can't announce handing over for the shipping forcast
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Offline Simon

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2026, 06:47:10 am »
The BBC started with a few Radio and then TV stations. They now run a streaming service and more radio channels than you can shake a stick at. There have been in the past discussions about axing channels full stop as there are so many that it is not sustainable. I expect the they are running out of the effect caused by the lower cost of the technology these days much like the power grid has run out of the levelling effect created by devices becoming more efficient as demand increases.

The BBC recently did a deal with YouTube for exclusive content which needs paying for but with more of us online than on our crystal sets it makes sense, they are a public broadcaster, if the public are not listening then why broadcast. When I lived in Italy my grandfather would listen to the BBC world service on SW. When I moved 3 miles away I could not pick it up at night, contrary to what you expect. I suspect that due to the differing distances sky and ground waves travelled, I happened to be in a spot where they coincided 180 degrees out of phase. So I could only pick it up in the day - badly.
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2026, 09:00:15 am »
I'm astonished to read this. The idea that shutting down 198kHz is all about the government wanting to "control" what we can listen to is, in my opinion, ridiculous, paranoid nonsense.

I think calling the idea "ridiculous paranoid nonsense" is unnecessarily dismissive.

Control over information flow has historically been one of the fundamental concerns of governments and large political systems of every ideology. This is not a conspiracy theory but a recurring historical pattern observed for centuries. Free and uncontrolled access to information inherently limits centralized power, so states naturally tend toward regulation, filtering, licensing, censorship, or influence over communication channels whenever they have the practical ability to do so.

And I suspect you are well aware of this yourself, because history is full of examples of governments attempting to restrict, regulate, suppress, or control access to information and media whenever they considered it politically or strategically important.

The only real difference between governments is not whether this tendency exists, but how far they are able to pursue it under technological, economic, legal, and social constraints.

That does not mean every individual decision is driven purely by censorship motives. But dismissing information-control considerations entirely, as if governments have no interest in shaping what populations can easily access or receive, is neither historically nor politically very convincing.


It's about COST! 198kHz is an obsolete service, used by relatively few people, and in any case those users have more modern alternatives. The transmitter at Droitwich occupies prime building land (much like MSF at Rugby did); it uses 500kW of power, day and night, continuously. It is at risk of being unmaintainable: there are fewer than 10 of the output valves left in the whole world.

The BBC has been warning about shutting it down since 2011 because of budget cuts. It makes absolute sense.

PS: The site and transmitter is owned by Arqiva, but of course the BBC will bear all the costs associated with the 198kHz R4 service.

Let’s put aside speculation and look at a first-order engineering comparison.

A 500 kW long-wave transmitter at ~198 kHz typically provides:
- Ground-wave reliable and stable coverage: ~800–1200 km radius
- Skywave-assisted reception: up to ~2000–3000 km or more under favorable propagation conditions

A 30 kW FM transmitter, even in good conditions:
- Practical reliable coverage: ~70–120 km radius on a flat ground surface with no obstacles and about ~20-50 km in the mountains

Now compare coverage area (A = pi * r^2):
- FM (r ~ 60 km): A = pi * 60^2 = 11'309 km^2
- LW (r ~ 1000 km conservative): A = pi * 1000^2 = 3'141'592 km^2
- LW (r ~ 2500 km): A = pi * 2500^2 = 19'634'954 km^2

So a single LW transmitter covers roughly 300–1700x larger area than a single FM transmitter.

Now normalize by power:
- FM: 30 kW / 11'309 km^2 = 2.653 W per km^2
- LW: 500 kW / 3'141'592 km^2 = 0.159 W per km^2

So in terms of large-area coverage efficiency, LW broadcasting can be an order of magnitude more energy-efficient per square kilometer covered.

In practical terms, achieving comparable geographic coverage with FM would require a very large distributed network of transmitters rather than a single site. Even with conservative assumptions, you quickly end up with total transmitted power on the order of 30 megawatts for FM infrastructure versus ~500 kW for a single LW service. So the simplistic argument that "LW consumes too much power" becomes much less obvious once you compare complete coverage systems rather than looking only at the electrical consumption of a single transmitter in isolation.

Not to mention that FM broadcasting is fundamentally incapable of providing the kind of ultra-long-range coverage achievable with LW AM propagation, regardless of transmitter power or infrastructure density.

And this is before accounting for the fact that FM networks require many distributed sites, each with their own infrastructure, redundancy, and maintenance overhead, which further increases system-level cost per covered area.

and in any case those users have more modern alternatives.

I would be very cautious with statements like "those users have more modern alternatives", because LW and MW broadcasting still provide capabilities that modern systems generally do not replicate: extremely large-area coverage without dependence on complex intermediate infrastructure such as internet backbones, cellular networks, or local power availability.

Conventional broadcast radio can continue to function with relatively simple battery-powered receivers even when all other communication systems fail, become overloaded, or are intentionally restricted. From a resilience and infrastructure-independence standpoint, LW/MW broadcasting still occupies a unique niche that modern network-centric distribution methods cannot fully replaced.

It is at risk of being unmaintainable: there are fewer than 10 of the output valves left in the whole world.

This sounds more like a convenient simplified explanation aimed at non-technical audiences, rather than a fundamental engineering limitation.

High-power solid-state LF/MF transmitters have existed for many years already, including modular designs capable of hundreds of kilowatts of output power with high redundancy and relatively straightforward maintenance. So the scarcity of specific vacuum tubes does not mean that high-power LW broadcasting itself has become technically impractical.

In fact, vacuum-tube transmitters historically remained popular at these power levels largely because of their simplicity, robustness, overload tolerance, and favorable cost/performance ratio for very high RF powers. But from a modern engineering standpoint, solid-state replacements are entirely feasible, so this is not really a fundamental issue.

it uses 500kW of power, day and night, continuously.

The statement that it "uses 500 kW continuously" is often presented as an argument against efficiency, but in power engineering this is not necessarily a disadvantage in itself.

Continuous, steady load actually corresponds to a high capacity factor, which is generally favorable for power system economics. Generation assets are most cost-efficient when they operate close to constant output, since capital-intensive infrastructure (especially baseload plants such as nuclear, hydro, or large thermal stations) is amortized over stable long-term operation rather than frequent load cycling.

So a constant 500 kW broadcast load is not inherently inefficient — it is, in fact, a relatively "grid-friendly" profile compared to fluctuating demand patterns that require significant additional reserve capacity and dynamic balancing.

Moreover, a long-wave broadcasting station can be taken off-line in a very controlled and predictable manner, allowing its load to be shed during periods of grid stress or during scheduled maintenance windows.

Conversely, from a power system perspective, such a continuously available high-power load can also act as a useful form of flexible demand, capable of absorbing surplus generation during periods of low consumption or renewable overproduction. In that sense, it can function as a controllable sink for otherwise underutilized energy, improving overall grid utilization and reducing the need for curtailment of excess generation.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2026, 09:35:09 am by radiolistener »
 
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Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2026, 09:38:18 am »
By the way, it is still currently on air at the time of writing  :)
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2026, 10:07:31 am »
Why would the UK need a 2000km radius LW transmitter?  The entire country is only about 1000 x 500 km.  Besides, whilst LW may have longer range, the signal quality is noticeably poorer.  It's mono audio only (fine for spoken word, but not great for music) and very susceptible to local interference like my neighbour's petrol lawnmower.

The real winner here is DAB+.  Because it uses digital encoding a DAB+ transmitter can serve the same number of customers as an FM transmitter does, but with about 1/6th the power, putting it at similar power to LW per sq km, but allowing for hundreds of channels to be broadcast simultaneously along with guides and programme information (whereas Radio 4 LW is one programme!)

But the long term future for all broadcast radio is not great in any case, I wouldn't be surprised to see FM switched off in the next decade and DAB(+) shortly after that.  People are "tuning in" less because listening habits have changed with demographic changes, much in the same way as broadcast TV is dying off.  Subscription services (Spotify, Apple Music) are booming instead, as is internet radio.  Some newer cars don't even have AM/FM/DAB radios in them (e.g. all new Tesla vehicles).  I myself haven't listened to broadcast radio in 5 years except incidentally in cafes and such, and internet radio only rarely.  I recently completed a 'Radio Survey' by Ipsos, and the answer to all of the questions about listening habits was "0 times per week".  Personally can't stand DJs speaking over the music and blabbing on about useless nonsense.  Traffic reports are obsoleted by Google Maps and similar.  News straight to the phone.  Where does radio fit in anymore?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2026, 10:09:05 am by tom66 »
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2026, 10:16:10 am »
From a system perspective, FM and DAB+ are essentially local coverage technologies — beyond the line of sight, a significant portion of the transmitted energy does not contribute to the communication system and is simply radiated into free space around the Earth without being practically recoverable for reception.

Simply speaking, it is a kind of “cosmos heating” technology  :)

In contrast, LW/MW broadcasting relies on ground-wave propagation and, in the case of skywave, reflection from the ionosphere, which enables a far larger effective utilization of the transmitted power within the Earth.
 

Offline SteveThackery

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2026, 10:34:29 am »
So in terms of large-area coverage efficiency, LW broadcasting can be an order of magnitude more energy-efficient per square kilometer covered.

In practical terms, achieving comparable geographic coverage with FM would require a very large distributed network of transmitters rather than a single site. Even with conservative assumptions, you quickly end up with total transmitted power on the order of 30 megawatts for FM infrastructure versus ~500 kW for a single LW service. So the simplistic argument that "LW consumes too much power" becomes much less obvious once you compare complete coverage systems rather than looking only at the electrical consumption of a single transmitter in isolation.

Not to mention that FM broadcasting is fundamentally incapable of providing the kind of ultra-long-range coverage achievable with LW AM propagation, regardless of transmitter power or infrastructure density.

And this is before accounting for the fact that FM networks require many distributed sites, each with their own infrastructure, redundancy, and maintenance overhead, which further increases system-level cost per covered area.

I think you are missing the point: saying how much FM infrastructure would be required is irrelevant because it is already built. 198kHz provides one voice channel (mono, bandwidth limited) at ridiculous cost. The FM network offers approx 99% coverage of the population, and over 400 distinct services (most being regional, of course).  In any given location a typical user can access 5 - 15 FM stations, or if in a city, double that.

It goes further: as I say, all the things you say "would be" required for a comparable FM service are built and working. But now the decades-old FM network is being made obsolete by the DAB/DAB+ network. The BBC national DAB service covers 97% of the population.  DAB users can typically receive over 100 "stations". 198kHz is doubly obsolete. And it is just one voice channel. What a colossal amount of power for a single voice channel!

So there is simply no case for operating 198kHz. Your arguments are too theoretical, too many "would be" claims. The BBC can easily meet all its objectives with FM and DAB. There is no "would be": FM and DAB exist, work, and serve over 99% of the population.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2026, 10:40:03 am by SteveThackery »
 

Offline SteveThackery

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2026, 10:37:05 am »
From a system perspective, FM and DAB+ are essentially local coverage technologies — beyond the line of sight, a significant portion of the transmitted energy does not contribute to the communication system and is simply radiated into free space around the Earth without being practically recoverable for reception.

Simply speaking, it is a kind of “cosmos heating” technology  :)

So what? It is built. It works. 198kHz is wasting 500kW of power because its content can be accessed via FM or DAB. So why keep 198kHz running?
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2026, 11:06:10 am »
Why would the UK need a 2000km radius LW transmitter? 

The real winner here is DAB+.  Because it uses digital encoding a DAB+ transmitter can serve the same number of customers as an FM transmitter does, but with about 1/6th the power, putting it at similar power to LW per sq km, but allowing for hundreds of channels to be broadcast simultaneously along with guides and programme information (whereas Radio 4 LW is one programme!)

The discussion is not really about whether LW/MW should be used for daily entertainment broadcasting or not.

The more relevant point is system resilience and dependency. Modern FM and especially DAB+ networks are fundamentally part of a broader infrastructure stack (distribution feeds, IP backhaul, regional multiplexing, power-hungry distributed transmitters). This makes them efficient in normal conditions, but also tightly coupled to complex infrastructure and highly dependent on internet and electricity availability.

During war conflict, when internet feeds and centralized distribution links are disrupted, many FM/DAB stations  that rely on networked content delivery tend to become "broken CD player" or repeated emergency loops, effectively losing their role as information sources.

In contrast, LW/MW/SW broadcasting is one of the few remaining large-area broadcast mechanisms that does not rely on dense regional infrastructure to maintain wide coverage.

So the key difference is not "modern vs obsolete", but rather infrastructure dependency vs infrastructure independence. In abnormal conditions (large-scale outages, war conflict, or infrastructure degradation), these properties behave very differently.

That is the real engineering distinction, regardless of listening habits in peacetime.

Some newer cars don't even have AM/FM/DAB radios in them (e.g. all new Tesla vehicles).

Tesla not having AM/FM/DAB radios is not really surprising from an RF engineering perspective. High-power inverter systems and traction motor drives generate significant broadband electromagnetic noise, which makes reliable reception of weak broadcast signals a non-trivial engineering problem in a typical EV environment.

So yes, if they had decided to fully support traditional broadcast reception, it would likely have required a substantial amount of engineering effort, shielding, filtering, and cost to bring EMI levels down. Otherwise, they would inevitably face a lot of very uncomfortable questions about the vehicle’s electromagnetic emissions.

News straight to the phone.  Where does radio fit in anymore?

That perspective is valid as long as mobile networks and internet infrastructure are fully operational — in normal conditions, a smartphone is clearly the most convenient information device.

The question becomes different when you look at failure modes of modern communication systems. Cellular networks depend on dense, power-hungry infrastructure and backhaul connectivity, which can degrade or become overloaded during large-scale emergencies and extended power outages. Internet access is similarly dependent on multi-layered infrastructure that is not inherently resilient by design.

In that sense, my point is based on practical observation of how quickly modern communication layers (FM/cellphone/internet) can degrade under stress. And this is exactly why the reliability of purely local communication channels is often overestimated: their limitations typically become visible only under non-standard operating conditions, which many people simply have not experienced directly.
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2026, 11:19:43 am »
So what? It is built. It works. 198kHz is wasting 500kW of power because its content can be accessed via FM or DAB. So why keep 198kHz running?

So what?

The point is not whether FM or DAB work under normal operating conditions — of course they do. The question is how these systems behave under real stress conditions, when power supply, distribution feeds, and network infrastructure begin to fail.

From practical observation during the early phase of the war, local broadcast infrastructure (such as FM/DAB) can degrade very quickly: stations either fall back into continuous emergency loops (including repeating alarms or pre-recorded signals) or lose their ability to provide meaningful dynamic content and become a "broken CD player" due to loss internet connection. At the same time, cellular and internet connectivity tend to collapse within 1-2 days, once local power and backhaul infrastructure are disrupted. During prolonged city-wide power outages, local FM broadcast stations shutdown completely due to the lack of power supply to both transmission and supporting infrastructure.

So the key question remains simple: if these layered systems degrade and go offline so quickly (internet, cellphones, FM/DAB), what independent wide-area broadcasting mechanism is still available?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2026, 11:29:16 am by radiolistener »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2026, 11:57:51 am »
The more relevant point is system resilience and dependency. Modern FM and especially DAB+ networks are fundamentally part of a broader infrastructure stack (distribution feeds, IP backhaul, regional multiplexing, power-hungry distributed transmitters). This makes them efficient in normal conditions, but also tightly coupled to complex infrastructure and highly dependent on internet and electricity availability.

I think you will find that cellular networks are more rugged than you expect. For instance, Ukraine is still regularly using 4G networks even near to the front line to communicate with their troops.  It's also possible to deploy cellular networks from a briefcase.  The power required for such a micro-cell is under 10 watts, so you can run it from solar or batteries easily. That can cover a few km easily.  Plus Starlink, of course.

Most cell towers are at least short-term battery backed in the UK, and about 10% of them have on site natural gas generators (this is a requirement for police radio as they are phasing out TETRA and moving to 4G comms.)

If your emergency communications system depends on a single 198kHz LW transmitter, then it is arguably more at risk then distributed infrastructure.

Some newer cars don't even have AM/FM/DAB radios in them (e.g. all new Tesla vehicles).

Tesla not having AM/FM/DAB radios is not really surprising from an RF engineering perspective. High-power inverter systems and traction motor drives generate significant broadband electromagnetic noise, which makes reliable reception of weak broadcast signals a non-trivial engineering problem in a typical EV environment.

So yes, if they had decided to fully support traditional broadcast reception, it would likely have required a substantial amount of engineering effort, shielding, filtering, and cost to bring EMI levels down. Otherwise, they would inevitably face a lot of very uncomfortable questions about the vehicle’s electromagnetic emissions.

It's available as an option, I should have said, not standard any more.  500 euros to add an FM and DAB radio.  No AM since 2021 though and it has never been available on Model 3.  You are likely correct about interference creating some issues for AM radio (this was noted on the Model S), but I don't think it is a problem for FM.

Both EVs that I own do not have an AM radio, although they do have FM and DAB (VW ID.3 and Polestar 2).  I've not used either regularly to determine if the signal is any better or worse than a combustion car, but I doubt it is noticeable.

News straight to the phone.  Where does radio fit in anymore?

That perspective is valid as long as mobile networks and internet infrastructure are fully operational — in normal conditions, a smartphone is clearly the most convenient information device.

The question becomes different when you look at failure modes of modern communication systems. Cellular networks depend on dense, power-hungry infrastructure and backhaul connectivity, which can degrade or become overloaded during large-scale emergencies and extended power outages. Internet access is similarly dependent on multi-layered infrastructure that is not inherently resilient by design.

In that sense, my point is based on practical observation of how quickly modern communication layers (FM/cellphone/internet) can degrade under stress. And this is exactly why the reliability of purely local communication channels is often overestimated: their limitations typically become visible only under non-standard operating conditions, which many people simply have not experienced directly.

Well, that is why we have emergency alerts via the cell network now.  That doesn't depend upon the internet, it just needs a few cell towers to send a broadcast message and all devices receive it.  Plenty of information can be communicated that way and it can be geo-targeted so "Evacuate area 'X' due to flooding" is possible.

I fail to see how this is any better than 198kHz LW, because very few people are continuously listening to it, so if there is an emergency that won't be noticed by most.  In the event of total war where cell towers become active targets, then we'd instead be distributing AM radios and build a distributed AM transmitter network - because presumably Droitwich would have already been taken out.  How is that any better to using existing infrastructure which is already far more capable?
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2026, 12:50:59 pm »
I think you will find that cellular networks are more rugged than you expect. For instance, Ukraine is still regularly using 4G networks even near to the front line to communicate with their troops.  It's also possible to deploy cellular networks from a briefcase. 

Yes — and this is exactly the kind of environment I am referring to.

Based on direct experience in a frontline city under prolonged siege conditions, cellular networks can indeed remain operational locally for some time. However, once power constraints and backhaul fragmentation accumulate, overall network reliability tends to degrade significantly within a relatively short timeframe. For example, cellular service going shutdown usually within ~24 hours after a complete city-wide blackout - I was seen it many times, in practice you can still see some BS connected, but both voice and mobile data services become complete unavailable.

It is also possible that limited microcell or temporary deployments continue to operate in certain areas, including for military or emergency use cases. However, for the civilian population, communication access can effectively disappear completely across all common channels — cellular, internet, and FM broadcasting alike.

In such conditions, the only remaining widely accessible broadcast medium is AM radio on LW/MW/SW, which continues to function great due to its fundamentally different propagation and infrastructure requirements — and with very stable and excelent sound quality under those circumstances due to missing EMI noise from electronics :)

For example, this is what the Medium and Long Wave bands look like during a total city blackout. As can be seen, the spectrum becomes very clean, almost all these peaks on AM broadcasting band are AM stations from different countries...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2026, 01:12:05 pm by radiolistener »
 
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Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2026, 02:01:46 pm »
The power required for such a micro-cell is under 10 watts, so you can run it from solar or batteries easily. That can cover a few km easily.  Plus Starlink, of course.

It's better to stay away from these microcells and the cell phones that connected with them.

Most cell towers are at least short-term battery backed in the UK, and about 10% of them have on site natural gas generators (this is a requirement for police radio as they are phasing out TETRA and moving to 4G comms.)

Yes, and that is exactly what allows the cellular network to continue operating for roughly ~6–12 hours after a large-scale power failure. After that, sites progressively go offline and become effectively useless for normal communication, because voice calls and mobile data services stop functioning once backup power is exhausted.

So in practice, those backup batteries usually buy you only several hours of operation before service availability begins collapsing :)

Both EVs that I own do not have an AM radio, although they do have FM and DAB (VW ID.3 and Polestar 2).  I've not used either regularly to determine if the signal is any better or worse than a combustion car, but I doubt it is noticeable.

I am sure that on LW/MW bands the EMI noise from EV power electronics is strong enough that you could easily "hear" it on a receiver.

As for conventional combustion-engine cars, I have listened to AM stations many times with the engine running, and interference was generally not noticeable under normal operating conditions. The reason is fairly straightforward: combustion-engine vehicles do not contain high-power inverter stages switching hundreds or thousands of amperes at high frequencies like modern EV drivetrains do.

Well, that is why we have emergency alerts via the cell network now.  That doesn't depend upon the internet, it just needs a few cell towers to send a broadcast message and all devices receive it.  Plenty of information can be communicated that way and it can be geo-targeted so "Evacuate area 'X' due to flooding" is possible.

There is one practical problem with that approach: cellular infrastructure is heavily dependent on continuous power and backhaul availability. In prolonged blackout conditions, many cell towers effectively become completely useless pieces of infrastructure within roughly 24 hours once backup power is exhausted — this is something I have personally observed multiple times in practice.

After that, some limited operation may still continue for another 12–24 hours for special services only, before shutting down completely. There is no magic that allows large-scale cellular infrastructure to continue operating indefinitely without power.

And even if some individual base stations are powered from generators, that alone does not solve the problem if significant parts of the surrounding network and upstream infrastructure are already offline.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2026, 02:14:56 pm »
@radiolistener

The natural gas backed cell towers are connected to the gas grid.  Provided that remains available, and that is considered critical infrastructure in the UK, then they can run indefinitely.

You still haven't explained how a single point of failure, of a single 500kW LW transmitter, is better than a distributed network.  Because if I were a baddie and thought that was critical infrastructure then I would be aiming a missile or drone at it and taking it out within the first 24hrs. It is a lot more difficult to do the same to hundreds of cell towers scattered all over the country.
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2026, 03:29:30 pm »
The natural gas backed cell towers are connected to the gas grid.  Provided that remains available, and that is considered critical infrastructure in the UK, then they can run indefinitely.

You still haven't explained how a single point of failure, of a single 500kW LW transmitter, is better than a distributed network.  Because if I were a baddie and thought that was critical infrastructure then I would be aiming a missile or drone at it and taking it out within the first 24hrs. It is a lot more difficult to do the same to hundreds of cell towers scattered all over the country.

I remember in the early phase of the war a missile strike hit a gas pipeline — it was already dark, but the explosion and burning gas lit up the sky like daylight until the flow was eventually shut off.

As for LW transmitters, the key point is that the system is inherently regional: one high-power transmitter covers one large area, another covers another region, and so on. The entire service model is based on a small number of high-power nodes.

If a regional transmitter is shut down, the local audience gradually migrates away from that band simply because there is nothing to listen to anymore in that area. Over time, that effectively reduces the installed base of receivers in regular use within that region.

Then, when internet and cellular networks are unavailable, there is no real fallback communication channel left in daily use, because most people no longer rely on dedicated broadcast receivers.

I think that is the practical dynamic behind it. Otherwise it is difficult to explain why LW/MW broadcasting is being reduced in one regions, while in others it is still actively maintained and even expanded.

Interestingly, that in these regions where LW and MW transmitters have been decommissioned, significant geopolitical instability or armed conflict has followed shortly afterward. I actually remember discussing this observation on another forum even before the war, it happened when the local LW station was shut down, without any expectation that any major conflict would follow.

Looking back, it is interesting how infrastructure changes of this kind can later appear in a different context...
 

Offline Haenk

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2026, 03:43:47 pm »
Why would the UK need a 2000km radius LW transmitter?  The entire country is only about 1000 x 500 km.  Besides, whilst LW may have longer range, the signal quality is noticeably poorer.  It's mono audio only (fine for spoken word, but not great for music) and very susceptible to local interference like my neighbour's petrol lawnmower.

The army use was "long distance communications" - i.e. connecting army divisions, foreign armies, ministry of defense, NATO. And of course marine and overseas use.
While it certainly is possible to interfere with the local receiver, you can't really hurt the emitter, as transmission uses athmospheric reflection.
As for the signal, we used (encrypted) teletyping at 50 baud. That is quite robust, and of course only used for written important communications. (Like "Receiver: Ministry of Defense. This is Division 4. Message: Help, we are under serious attack!", you get the idea.) AFAIR there were no audio sets (mic; though headsets to finetune the receiver), and encryption equipment would not have support for audio anyway.
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2026, 04:00:28 pm »
Besides, whilst LW may have longer range, the signal quality is noticeably poorer.  It's mono audio only (fine for spoken word, but not great for music) and very susceptible to local interference like my neighbour's petrol lawnmower.

Yes, AM broadcasting today is mostly mono, so stereo is generally not part of the equation.

As for perceived quality, I would not necessarily say it is significantly worse when the SNR is good. In fact, under clean reception conditions, AM can sound quite good for speech and even good for music.

One often overlooked aspect is that AM does not involve the same kind of nonlinear distortions inherent to FM demodulation under certain conditions. Instead, its main limitation is noise and bandwidth rather than nonlinear distortion, which makes its degradation behavior more gradual and predictable as SNR decreases.

So while AM is indeed more susceptible to noise, the noise it produces is soft in character — it rises gradually and degrades the signal in a smooth, non-abrupt way. At the same time, the AM modulation process itself is fundamentally linear, so it does not introduce the same type of nonlinear distortion artifacts that can appear in FM.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2026, 04:05:28 pm by radiolistener »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2026, 05:55:04 pm »
LW and MW could in theory be used for DAB. The audio bandwidth for AM DSB radio is 3kHz, if I remember rightly, so that's total an RF bandwidth of 6kHz. If reception is good, then 3kHz bandwidth is good enough for an old modem connection giving 56 kbit/s, so use two 3kHz SSB channels for 112 kibit/s, which is good enough for half reasonable audio with a decent codec.

In reality, VHF has far more bandwidth, making DAB on lower frequencies impractical in reality.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Radio 4 Long Wave Switch Off
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2026, 06:16:09 pm »
LW and MW could in theory be used for DAB. The audio bandwidth for AM DSB radio is 3kHz, if I remember rightly, so that's total an RF bandwidth of 6kHz. If reception is good, then 3kHz bandwidth is good enough for an old modem connection giving 56 kbit/s, so use two 3kHz SSB channels for 112 kibit/s, which is good enough for half reasonable audio with a decent codec.

In reality, VHF has far more bandwidth, making DAB on lower frequencies impractical in reality.

Have a look at 'DRM':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Radio_Mondiale

Should be able to manage up to 70kbit/s in the AM band (if there's no analog fallback), but that will be one channel only.

If you want multiple stations inside a single channel like DAB+ then you just need a higher frequency as the bandwidth for each station becomes impractical.
 


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