RANT: People calling themselves engineers.

[PeteInTexas]

One thing that I didn't understand at the time was something my teacher told me:


"You don't become an architect before 40 - not enough hours in a day."

How right he was...

As I pointed out in the other thread, 10k hours of practice seems to be the magic number.

[PeteInTexas]

Hmmmm. All the talk of sacrifice makes me cringe. Try being a proffesional soldier. My hobby on the weekends is to make leds blink. Or occasionally smoke. Either way, I am by no means an "engineer" nor do I think I will ever achieve that level. I deeply respect those with that level of skill and knowledge, and do my best to learn from them. What piece of paper they have with their name on it, nor what they did to earn it, matters not one bit to me.
My job is to protect my friends and family. I get paid for it, some say too much, some say not enough. I also risk my life for it. Not as little nor as often as people think. It is part of what I do and I accept it.
When people come up and thank me for what I do, it makes me uncomfortable. I do what I do for my own reasons, some selfish, some not. But not for 'recognition' or anyone else's reasons.
I certainly respect those who are better than me at something. I find it mind-boggling though, that someone would demand respect for having a sheet of parchment with their name on it. I have far too many officers who think that way, and in the end, their four years at a service  acadamy, and their degrees in architecture to engineering to basket weaving still do nothing to make them as good a soldier as me, an NCO with nearly a decade of experience. But I respect their knowledge in things I don't know, and do my best to learn from them, as I hope they are able to learn from me.
In the end, the only thing that matters is what a person is like, what they can contribute, are they willing to share what they know to make the world a better place? Or are they simply seeking 'recognition' for having their name on a piece of paper?
/rant

Would you jumped in a fox hole fighting position with some one who never completed BRM?  They say they have, but they don't a have piece of paper saying so.  How confident can you be with the guy or gal.

[kaz911]

one of the absolute best engineers I know - has no formal EE education - but has built some of the best PC motherboards ever. My old company had 3 of his "server's" running our ISP parts DNS - and the PC's never died - while HP, DELL & Fujitsu servers died around them - they just kept running. Total running time 11 years without a hitch.

I met him during my Education - where he was building some of the first Arcnet ISA cards with the company I worked for. His desk at work (and floor at home) used to look like a Jim Williams desk... Most of the student PHD's and EE's always went to him for solutions to the "hardest" problems.

Today Soeren owns / runs Soekris engineering - which are known for some of the most stable "embedded" pc designs for router/firewall etc.

You can learn basic engineering at University. But you do not become a great EE unless it is your passion. And if Electronics is you passion - you are usually 2 years ahead of your classmates without the passion. I rather have a great self-taught EE with passion in my company than a lousy University degree holder without passion.

[8086]

Fellas, don't forget to think about liability and lawsuits.

Say you have a sharp self taught employee.  The company is so impressed with him or her they give him the engineer title.  The company let him or her work on the radiation dosing module of that big nuclear medicine cure-o-matic contract they just won.  A bunch of patients develop cancer due to radiation overdose.  They lawyer up and sue.  They find out the guy  or gal that designed the dosing module did not even go to college.  Damages sought quintuples bankrupting the company.  Your guy or gal can't even claim he was following best practices because, as a non-member of any relevant "societies" and "associations", how would he or she know what they are?  What credible member of such organization would vouch for a non-members credentials?

There is a reason formal education is important.  There is a reason professional organizations exists.

What does this have to do with anything? You don't take medical equipment from design to distribution just like that.

You also don't learn very many best practices (if any at all) in university, that's something you learn while doing a job.

However, having said all this, your post is a straw man. Not all engineers work on such equipment. I very much doubt that the company could be sued on the basis that one of the engineers hadn't been to university, either.

Wartex. It seems to me that you aspire to be one of these elitist engineer types you speak of in future.

Perhaps it is not our egos you need worry about, but your own? 

I would never go around telling people I'm an engineer ESPECIALLY before I get my degree and contribute something of value to the society as an engineer. All I ask is that electronics geeks stop calling themselves engineers when they are not dipshit,  is that so hard to grasp?

You may limit yourself in that way if you wish, but I suspect you are attempting to protect what you're working for. After all, your ego can't have a field day if you graduate if you just let those without degrees be equals, can it?

Your profile says you're 30 years old, is it common for this age group to be so insolent?

[PeteInTexas]

one of the absolute best engineers I know - has no formal EE education - but has built some of the best PC motherboards ever. My old company had 3 of his "server's" running our ISP parts DNS - and the PC's never died - while HP, DELL & Fujitsu servers died around them - they just kept running. Total running time 11 years without a hitch.

I met him during my Education - where he was building some of the first Arcnet ISA cards with the company I worked for. His desk at work (and floor at home) used to look like a Jim Williams desk... Most of the student PHD's and EE's always went to him for solutions to the "hardest" problems.

Today Soeren owns / runs Soekris engineering - which are known for some of the most stable "embedded" pc designs for router/firewall etc.

You can learn basic engineering at University. But you do not become a great EE unless it is your passion. And if Electronics is you passion - you are usually 2 years ahead of your classmates without the passion. I rather have a great self-taught EE with passion in my company than a lousy University degree holder without passion.

So this is your criteria for bestowing the engineer title, a messy desk and floor?

[ronwoch]

Would you jumped in a fox hole fighting position with some one who never completed BRM?  They say they have, but they don't a have piece of paper saying so.  How confident can you be with the guy or gal.

No, I would first take them to the range and see how they shoot. With or without the paper. I give a shit what someone claims to have done in basic training. Basic training is just that- Basic. MY job as a Non-Commisioned Officer is to ENSURE that the soldiers under me are ready to go to war.
No matter how much time they have, experience, credentials, courses, or NONE, they ALL have to prove to me that they can cut it. Or be willing to learn how.
I would expect that an engineering job be roughly the same. If I were the new guy, it matters not what college my degree is from, what fancy certificates I have, or don't have, I still have to prove that I am capapble of doing the job I have been hired for, do I not?

[Wartex]

You may limit yourself in that way if you wish, but I suspect you are attempting to protect what you're working for. After all, your ego can't have a field day if you graduate if you just let those without degrees be equals, can it?

I'm not trying to protect anything. I'm not even in school now. Your argument is a classic straw man and I'm not falling for it. I ask people to be humble and not flaunt their undeserved name, that is all I ask. If you can't get that, my condolences.

Your profile says you're 30 years old, is it common for this age group to be so insolent?

Seriously? The age card? What's next, "yo mama" jokes? Is it common for your age group to have no modesty and humbleness?

[kaz911]

Fellas, don't forget to think about liability and lawsuits.

Say you have a sharp self taught employee.  The company is so impressed with him or her they give him the engineer title.  The company let him or her work on the radiation dosing module of that big nuclear medicine cure-o-matic contract they just won.  A bunch of patients develop cancer due to radiation overdose.  They lawyer up and sue.  They find out the guy  or gal that designed the dosing module did not even go to college.  Damages sought quintuples bankrupting the company.  Your guy or gal can't even claim he was following best practices because, as a non-member of any relevant "societies" and "associations", how would he or she know what they are?  What credible member of such organization would vouch for a non-members credentials?

There is a reason formal education is important.  There is a reason professional organizations exists.

That is only true in the US where the legal system is completely screwed by greedy lawyers anyway. The rest of the world do not have the liability rules of the US. Non of my companies liability insurances says I have to employ only people with a degree.

Anyway - for medical engineering you usually both have engineers and doctors working side by side on the equipment - and the equipment does not go out to anyone before it has been checked and approved by a something like the FDC.

[kaz911]

one of the absolute best engineers I know - has no formal EE education - but has built some of the best PC motherboards ever. My old company had 3 of his "server's" running our ISP parts DNS - and the PC's never died - while HP, DELL & Fujitsu servers died around them - they just kept running. Total running time 11 years without a hitch.

I met him during my Education - where he was building some of the first Arcnet ISA cards with the company I worked for. His desk at work (and floor at home) used to look like a Jim Williams desk... Most of the student PHD's and EE's always went to him for solutions to the "hardest" problems.

Today Soeren owns / runs Soekris engineering - which are known for some of the most stable "embedded" pc designs for router/firewall etc.

You can learn basic engineering at University. But you do not become a great EE unless it is your passion. And if Electronics is you passion - you are usually 2 years ahead of your classmates without the passion. I rather have a great self-taught EE with passion in my company than a lousy University degree holder without passion.

So this is your criteria for bestowing the engineer title, a messy desk and floor?

No my little troll - you are out to pick a fight are you not?

[Wartex]

So this is your criteria for bestowing the engineer title, a messy desk and floor?

According to all the rage posts before, it is. The worst part, is they go around and TELL people they are engineers.

[Uncle Vernon]

Hahaha, I like all the wannabe RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGEEEEE! Look at all the self-appointed engineers coming out of the woodwork.

You know your options! The exit doors are call clearly marked if you see yourself as a little to special for the community here.

First of all, I'm not an engineer (yet), so calling me "elitist" is dumb.

Do you understand the concept of mutual exclusion? Being an elitist knob has no absolute relationship with any attained qualification.

My point is that getting a degree is a lot of hard work and sacrifice.

Relative to what, Paris Hilton probably sees batting her eyelids as hard work. Hard work for a wet behind the ears student with free board and lodging may be a doddle compared to the sacrifice and effort others have to make in pursuing their careers. What position are you in to judge. How many engineering related positions have you held, how would you cope in the circumstances others have needed to endure in their pursuit of an ideal career.

I have a lot of respect for people who went thru (sic) the guts of the educational system.

That's where we differ, I have respect for those who have learnt and can apply attributes other than arrogance as a result of their path through higher tertiary education. Clearly it's possible for some to traverse that path and achieve nothing but a false sense of elitism for their efforts.

The point I made about "real" schools is that these days you can literally buy a degree and it means fuck all.

That is not the point you made in opening this thread! Your point was clearly to deride the attribution of the term engineer to anyone other than those who had the privilege of studying in your so called real schools.  A certificate engineer is qualified engineer, any person able to competently do the work of an engineer is an engineer, albeit an unqualified one.

I agree with the point that Dave made about belonging to a particular association

No you've missed his point entirely. The fact the parameters of your elitism differ from some other set, does nothing to dismiss it's ignorance.

As for the "right" school - an accredited school with history is good enough. I never said you MUST go to MIT or degree is not valid. But if you do the online evening classes - come the fuck on! Do you really believe your education is just as good?

As a student you see yourself positioned to judge the effectiveness of all methods of attaining education. Clearly employers end others in the industry have a very different outlook on the abilities of current and prospective engineers. Are you saying much of the industry is clueless and need the wartex insight?

Regarding Jim Williams: He didn't call himself an engineer in his MIT days like the self-appointed losers here, now did he?

Perhaps he chose to judge himself and others around him by other than some elitist handle. But again you have revised the topic to avid the glaring error in your initial assertion. JW attained never undertook your mandatory hard slog to attain his education or reputation. He achieved widespread respect as an engineer, developer and educator, yet by your parameters he should be seen as a charlatan.

Last time I checked, none of the self-appointed engineers who gave interviews on eeweb and other sites have next to none published works and are less than obscure in the large scheme of things.

Last you checked? Did you check this as accurately as you check the credentials of the late Jim Williams? Where does self appointment come into it? What is that criteria for their selection of an eeweb interview? And of course when we see the interview from "wartex - elitist and student. esq" we will see a substantive reference to your published material? What the hell right do you have to criticise those selected?

Chill out people.

If you want chill perhaps you think of this before pressing send on some elitist bollocks.

All I said is that every second charlatan is an engineer these days. Sorry I hurt your egos.

No you said something entirely different! You derided the abilities of many skilled and working engineers with some clueless and elitist crap. You've derided rural colleges that for some are the only opportunity to seek out their derided career, you've dismissed the abilities of driven and self taught individuals. What the hell kind of reaction were you expecting? 

[kaz911]

I think the right way to approach the Engineer vs "University Engineer" - is to ADD something to the title of those engineers who has a university degree. .. ohh - that has already been done... 

[Wartex]

No, I would first take them to the range and see how they shoot. With or without the paper. I give a shit what someone claims to have done in basic training. Basic training is just that- Basic. MY job as a Non-Commisioned Officer is to ENSURE that the soldiers under me are ready to go to war.
No matter how much time they have, experience, credentials, courses, or NONE, they ALL have to prove to me that they can cut it. Or be willing to learn how.
I would expect that an engineering job be roughly the same. If I were the new guy, it matters not what college my degree is from, what fancy certificates I have, or don't have, I still have to prove that I am capapble of doing the job I have been hired for, do I not?

I agree, so tell me this, is it OK if someone with basic training and 2 years on the base in Europe to go around and TELL people they are a hardcore war veteran and do interviews for newspapers and TV shows? Because this is exactly what these people are doing.

[8086]

You may limit yourself in that way if you wish, but I suspect you are attempting to protect what you're working for. After all, your ego can't have a field day if you graduate if you just let those without degrees be equals, can it?

I'm not trying to protect anything. I'm not even in school now. Your argument is a classic straw man and I'm not falling for it. I ask people to be humble and not flaunt their undeserved name, that is all I ask. If you can't get that, my condolences.

Your profile says you're 30 years old, is it common for this age group to be so insolent?

Seriously? The age card? What's next, "yo mama" jokes? Is it common for your age group to have no modesty and humbleness?

I wouldn't call use of the word engineer to describe someone who designs electronic circuits "flaunting" it. It's merely using a word that best describes what they're doing.

If there were any "yo mama" jokes, I would expect them to come from you. I expect better from someone with 30 years experience of life and people. You were being insolent, but who says I don't have modesty or humility?

I still maintain that you're thinking of your future self by taking this view. Your definition of a person who deserves the title fits what you have planned in your future, no doubt.

I will admit, I used to have a stance similar to yours. What changed my mind is that I went to college (I think you may call it community college, but Im not sure; that may be underselling it) and university. At college, I met people who are good engineers and have been working for years in industry and only now have taken it upon themselves to get qualifications on paper. At university most of the students were absolutely clueless. It wasn't hard to see who were the better engineers.

[slateraptor]

Hmmmm. All the talk of sacrifice makes me cringe. Try being a proffesional soldier.

For the record, I'm a SSgt with 10 years combined active duty and national guard service. The formalities and engineer title beef isn't about demanding respect just because one holds a piece of parchment. It's about the disrespect towards professionals who didn't take the path of least resistance and have paid their dues. It's not the kind of disrespect you get when you walk into a gas station in a liberal town while in uniform and get called a baby killer by some punk ass civilian who doesn't have clue about duty. It's the kind of disrespect that guys like us see when we encounter ass clowns like this guy or this guy or this guy making a fool of our rite of passage.

[Wartex]

Hmmmm. All the talk of sacrifice makes me cringe. Try being a proffesional soldier.

For the record, I'm a SSgt with 10 years combined active duty and national guard service. The formalities and engineer title beef isn't about demanding respect just because one holds a piece of parchment. It's about the disrespect towards professionals who didn't take the path of least resistance and have paid their dues. It's not the kind of disrespect you get when you walk into a gas station in a liberal town while in uniform and get called a baby killer by some punk ass civilian who doesn't have clue about duty. It's the kind of disrespect that guys like us see when we encounter ass clowns like this guy or this guy or this guy making a fool of our rite of passage.

That is PRECISELY what I'm talking about. Every dipshit with a soldering iron calls himself an engineer these days. It cheapens the title "engineer". And thanks for the word I was looking for: POSERS. That's right, a bunch of people who gave interviews on eeweb are POSERS.

[PeteInTexas]

Fellas, don't forget to think about liability and lawsuits.

That is only true in the US where the legal system is completely screwed by greedy lawyers anyway. The rest of the world do not have the liability rules of the US. Non of my companies liability insurances says I have to employ only people with a degree.

That's probably because the rest of the world don't feel any obligation and responsibility when the crap they "engineer" hurt somebody.

Anyway - for medical engineering you usually both have engineers and doctors working side by side on the equipment - and the equipment does not go out to anyone before it has been checked and approved by a something like the FDC.

So I guess its okay to call oneself and engineer so long as  your work is supervised by some one with a degree.  Makes sense to me. 

[Uncle Vernon]

That's right, a bunch of people who gave interviews on eeweb are POSERS.

Well come on, which ones! And for that matter which members of this forum are using the title engineer without justification?

You've made your claims, how about backing them up with specifics and examples! How about having your judgement placed under the the same level of scrutiny you expect to contributions of others to comply to.

Put up or shut up! 

[ronwoch]

Slateraptor, I understand your point. Fully, and agree with it. Just as I can say I would never call myself an 'engineer' neither do I think it is right for others to do so that haven't earned the right. What I disagree with the OP about is the method of earning that right. Your interpretation of things may be how he meant it- but is NOT how it came off, at all, nor do I feel I am the only one who read it to be rather snide and derisive. Certainly it would be disrespectful for me to claim a title I am un-deserving of. But just WHO makes the final say on if I deserve it or not? You know as well as I that in the military many people hold ranks and titles they have no business laying claim to- they just are not fit for the job. While others who are, suffer on the sidelines. A diploma from one school or another is not exactly proof positive. Some schools are better than others.
Some very respected, known and un-known people in the electronics field, have no formal education. Others perhaps went to nothing more than a 'cow college.' Who is the OP to say that just because someone went to a community school instead of MIT that they are a 'poser'?
I can understand justifiable anger at people who have no right AT ALL to the title of engineer claiming to be one. But to say that some honest, hard working people, don't deserve to be called engineers simply based on what school they went to, or possibly never went to one at all, is wrong.

[Armin_Balija]

I just want to know one thing. Why are you so bent out of shape about this? You're looking rather foolish by ranting and throwing your arms around like a little kid over a word that anyone with a lick of sense could differentiate between. I mean yeah, I don't call myself an engineer, but what I do is engineering. I would never call myself a Prof. Engineer like Dave or some of the other people on these forums.. but Jesus Christ man.. let it go. You're not even a certified Engineer and you're getting all mad about it like you've been personally disrespected by it.

[PeteInTexas]

one of the absolute best engineers I know - has no formal EE education - but has built some of the best PC motherboards ever. My old company had 3 of his "server's" running our ISP parts DNS - and the PC's never died - while HP, DELL & Fujitsu servers died around them - they just kept running. Total running time 11 years without a hitch.

I met him during my Education - where he was building some of the first Arcnet ISA cards with the company I worked for. His desk at work (and floor at home) used to look like a Jim Williams desk... Most of the student PHD's and EE's always went to him for solutions to the "hardest" problems.

Today Soeren owns / runs Soekris engineering - which are known for some of the most stable "embedded" pc designs for router/firewall etc.

You can learn basic engineering at University. But you do not become a great EE unless it is your passion. And if Electronics is you passion - you are usually 2 years ahead of your classmates without the passion. I rather have a great self-taught EE with passion in my company than a lousy University degree holder without passion.

So this is your criteria for bestowing the engineer title, a messy desk and floor?

No my little troll - you are out to pick a fight are you not?

You seem very impressed with a mesy desk and floor.

[kaz911]

So I guess its okay to call oneself and engineer so long as  your work is supervised by some one with a degree.  Makes sense to me. 

no it was just to show how flawed your example was.

[Uncle Vernon]

I asked for people not to go around and tell everyone they are an engineer unless they have "have been working for years in industry". A lot of people who call themselves engineers have neither education, NOR have been working in the industry.

Which ones! Your making lots of accusations, where is the evidence to support your claims. If the problem is a wide spread as you suggest you should be able to easily quote numerous specific examples as substantiation.

[Wartex]

I mean yeah, I don't call myself an engineer, but what I do is engineering.

.
That is ALL I ask. Unfortunately from the get-go it appeared as if I said that unless you have a piece of paper you are not an engineer. That's not what I meant. I meant that many people are unqualified posers.

You're not even a certified Engineer and you're getting all mad about it like you've been personally disrespected by it.

I'm upset about it because I'm working towards a point where others can think of me as an engineer (and I would never call myself one, even when I finish school), while there is a bunch of amateurs who have done less and they ALREADY go around and tell everyone they are an "engineer", without any education OR real professional experience.

[8086]

Circuit design is NOT engineering.

No? Who made that decision? The almighty Wartex? LOL

F*ck you too, buddy.

Well done, it was not unexpected from you.

Nope, wrong. The title is deserved when you have something to show for it. 

Again, who decides?

You misunderstood me. I asked for people not to go around and tell everyone they are an engineer unless they have "have been working for years in industry". A lot of people who call themselves engineers have neither education, NOR have been working in the industry.

The fact that they had been working for years in industry is really only to indicate that they were capable without having degrees. There were also many young folk that outperformed most of the university students I met.

I ask you, if you don't care about degrees, why mention it? You clearly do.