Author Topic: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>  (Read 6606 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2021, 06:04:29 pm »
That's exactly my point: you don't know.  Most users, if you go by what you see on the web, assume it's a Linux bug.  Usually it isn't, exactly because most of the peripherals on the Pi core are connected via USB in the first place.  The nature of USB bus is such that packets are not supposed to be lost (or rather, acknowledged as received but dropped on the floor anyway), and some drivers just cannot recover gracefully from such losses.  The common end result is a completely locked up kernel, requiring a power reset.

I don't know, largely because I don't care and can't be bothered to find out. It works plenty well enough to meet my expectations for the sort of device it is, the reliability is on par with other similar devices, even some that cost much more, it works far better and is far more reliable than the streaming built into the bluray player I used previously. There is nothing unique about the RPi in this aspect, I do not find it to be any less reliable than similar compact, low power, low cost consumer devices. It is not marketed as mission critical enterprise grade equipment. For applications where I need greater reliability and/or more computing horsepower there are other choices, I use a i7 based mini PC as the Plex server because I needed more power and a real storage subsystem.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2021, 06:18:47 pm »
Some good points there.

One of the things I experienced was it rebooting when I plugged a USB stick in. Got a digital scope on the board and the 5V rail was dropping to 3.1V when you plugged the stick into it because they cheaped out on supply isolation and decoupling. This of course caused the 3.3V to drop out and the BOD kick off and reboot it  :palm: :palm: :palm:.

This is the sort of crap that means it's a toy.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2021, 06:21:18 pm »
This is the sort of crap that means it's a toy.

It *is* a toy. It's a $40 computer, nobody is claiming it to be enterprise grade hardware and no reasonable person would expect it to be. It's plenty useful though.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2021, 06:39:57 pm »
I think you need to read around. Look for the Wallbox and Hypervolt EV chargers - they use a Pi inside!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
 

Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2021, 10:02:53 pm »
I recall the old adage "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" - I'll leave it there.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2021, 10:25:23 pm »
I think you need to read around. Look for the Wallbox and Hypervolt EV chargers - they use a Pi inside!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Just piss-poor engineering to use something with about 100x the processing power that's needed for the job - an ESP23 would do just fine.
And if it wasn't enough of a toy - the Hypervolt also has a bunch of WS2812 LEDs inside to make pretty colour patterns  :palm:
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2021, 11:39:22 pm »
I think you need to read around. Look for the Wallbox and Hypervolt EV chargers - they use a Pi inside!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Just piss-poor engineering to use something with about 100x the processing power that's needed for the job - an ESP23 would do just fine.
And if it wasn't enough of a toy - the Hypervolt also has a bunch of WS2812 LEDs inside to make pretty colour patterns  :palm:
Lacklustre engineering indeed, although it is the sad reality of the market. Computing has become so cheap the developers became complacent, and users became forgiving to have to restart stuff due to a lock up or something else.

I am happy that not everywhere is like that. Lately I have been working in the Bluetooth LE world and the common narrative is: an update or functionality that requires you to reboot or re-pair is absolutely unnacceptable - go back to the drawing board.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2021, 11:47:29 pm »
I think you need to read around. Look for the Wallbox and Hypervolt EV chargers - they use a Pi inside!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

It isn't the fault of the RPi if somebody uses it in an entirely inappropriate manner. It is not marketed as an OEM controller to go into an EV charger. It is marketed as a low cost educational computer. The fact that it has sold many times more than originally anticipated and found itself used in things it was not originally intended for is beside the point. If somebody designs an Arduino into a space rocket that isn't the Arduino's fault.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2021, 12:14:36 am »
Another [Pi] is mounted in the housing of a gutted mini settop box and connected to my TV, it runs a Plex client and mostly just works, I've had to reboot it a few times but I don't know if that's the fault of the Pi or something else.
That's exactly my point: you don't know.  Most users, if you go by what you see on the web, assume it's a Linux bug.  Usually it isn't, exactly because most of the peripherals on the Pi core are connected via USB in the first place.  The nature of USB bus is such that packets are not supposed to be lost (or rather, acknowledged as received but dropped on the floor anyway), and some drivers just cannot recover gracefully from such losses.  The common end result is a completely locked up kernel, requiring a power reset.

It irks me, because it diverts blame to those who are not to blame.

You describe failures that would be unacceptable to me, yet you describe your Pi experience as "fantastic".  I wonder what words you'd use if you were using actual known working hardware, whose support is in upstream vanilla kernels?  (Most people tend to completely forget about it: when something works perfectly, it becomes invisible.  I've maintained servers whose users completely forgot they existed, even though accessing them daily.)

So, I'm not sore about Pi –– it is what it is, and even I have some due to the price point and camera module availability ––, but about how their users don't know nor care if the issues they live with are due to hardware or software.

How do you feel when your inane coworkers failures are routinely attributed to the entire team?  Not very happy, I'd imagine.  In this case, the stink follows everywhere, and switching jobs won't change anything.

No wishing to take the discussion away from RPi and their forums, but I was reminded of a expensive foray into CD burning I was involved in nearly 25 years ago. I already had server class SCSI II gear for burning CDs and tape backup and HDD storage which worked well, once setup properly.

I then helped someone with getting a very early model external USB CD burner working with a Toshiba laptop running w98. What could go wrong? CD burning -had- to be done without any interruption throughout the whole process. Of course, it bombed regularly.

After blaming the CD drive manufacturer IOmega(?), then MS (cos why wouldn't you?), it turned out to be a dodgy USB controller chip in the laptop provided by NEC, who denied any problem. Ended up being resolved after a class action.
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Offline Karel

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2021, 07:11:38 am »
I think you need to read around. Look for the Wallbox and Hypervolt EV chargers - they use a Pi inside!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

The Hypervolt uses a traditional RPI. Wallbox doesn't, they use an RPI compute module which is fine:

https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/03/security-flaws-found-in-popular-ev-chargers/

 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2021, 09:38:11 am »
I think you need to read around. Look for the Wallbox and Hypervolt EV chargers - they use a Pi inside!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

The Hypervolt uses a traditional RPI. Wallbox doesn't, they use an RPI compute module which is fine:

https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/03/security-flaws-found-in-popular-ev-chargers/
Using the CM is certainly better, but it's still vast overkill for that application, so there's much more code in there that could go wrong or present a security problem.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2021, 09:47:07 am »
It's probably a fair assertion to use a Linux SoC for the network side of it. What worries me is how much control that has over power delivery. I'd hope they hell that was a separate MCU with a constrained verified protocol between it and the host computer.

Also the RPi compute module is a dumb idea. Just solder a COTS SoC onto the damn board. There are enough of them out there!
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2021, 06:30:17 pm »
It's probably a fair assertion to use a Linux SoC for the network side of it. What worries me is how much control that has over power delivery. I'd hope they hell that was a separate MCU with a constrained verified protocol between it and the host computer.

Also the RPi compute module is a dumb idea. Just solder a COTS SoC onto the damn board. There are enough of them out there!
All it needs to do is exchange very small amounts of data to their server over wifi - Linux is total overkill, and introduces an unnecessarily large attack surface.
Something like an esp32 would be more than adequate -  the actual EVSE functionality is trivially small - literally just a PWM to the car to tell it how much it's allowed to draw,  on/off control of a contactor and some simple fault detection.
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Offline guenthert

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2021, 07:31:08 pm »
It seems the rather hypersensitive, antagonistic "staff"  :-DD at raspberry pi forums, are, in fact, a set of hired 12 year olds, as they seem unable to face ANY civil discourse or mature discussion, and have VERY thin skin!
[..]
      Uh, to me it looks like some different interpretation of what a civil discourse or mature discussion might be.  There clearly are different understandings of what is acceptable and that might even change over time.  Look e.g. at the Linux kernel community.  Throughout the 90s that was a comparatively rough place (looking backwards, almost comically so).  Then, with growing popularity of Linux, also in professional settings, some complained of unacceptable behavior, not the least of Mr. Torvalds himself.  At first those complainers where laughed out the house, but over the years, majority sentiment changed, until a couple years ago, Linus demonstratively changed himself (either due to community pressure or by, well, maturing).  Perhaps you'll have more reach by focusing on the technical issues with the devices, rather than the personalities of the members of the organization?

       The RPi devices sure have flaws, I'd think the recent ones less than the early ones, which perhaps limit their usefulness, but evidently don't make them useless.  I compare them to the home computers of the early/mid eighties, which had their warts as well, which didn't stop them to become hugely popular and for many a kid was the entrance into a lifelong passion or career.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 07:34:46 pm by guenthert »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2021, 09:36:24 pm »
I suspect the change in Mr. Torvalds' behavior is almost entirely down to simply getting older and more mature. Social skills do not come naturally to many of the sort of people who become engineers. I'm not naming any names but even at his worst he was less rude and abrasive and arguably more helpful than a few of the people who have passed through this forum.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2021, 10:26:59 pm »
I think you need to read around. Look for the Wallbox and Hypervolt EV chargers - they use a Pi inside!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Just piss-poor engineering to use something with about 100x the processing power that's needed for the job - an ESP23 would do just fine.
And if it wasn't enough of a toy - the Hypervolt also has a bunch of WS2812 LEDs inside to make pretty colour patterns  :palm:
Oh dear... I cannot wait the time when they have to RMA them by the thousands when the SD card will start failing. And the WS2812 is also a sure way to get the board yields down the drain, those things are way too easy to damage during soldering.
It sounds like those typical devices that are top-down designed by 30 year old "CTOs" who wrote some scripts for embedded systems, so they are immediately experts in the field.

It's probably a fair assertion to use a Linux SoC for the network side of it. What worries me is how much control that has over power delivery. I'd hope they hell that was a separate MCU with a constrained verified protocol between it and the host computer.

Also the RPi compute module is a dumb idea. Just solder a COTS SoC onto the damn board. There are enough of them out there!
Nah, those boards are less dumb than you think. For example, I had to write Kernel patches for some NXP imx processor because it was powered by 5V, and the internal DC-DC was hardcoded software configured to 3.8-4.2 V. Buying DDR memory, and configuring it is not straightforward. And those BGA packages are difficult to production test. Amongst more things, I would much rather prefer someone else to deal with these issues.
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2021, 11:38:44 pm »
Indeed. Modules are a design&test (=$$$) saver, especially when DDR is involved.

If RF is there... Then Intentional irradiator certification costs can be reduced quite swiftly with a module.
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Online magic

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2021, 05:22:55 am »
I suspect the change in Mr. Torvalds' behavior is almost entirely down to simply getting older and more mature.
He has been assimilated.
He had it coming when he started doing Linux for a living and critically relying on corporate contributors, from the US of all places :scared:
It's like dealing with Satan - you get superpowers but you sell your soul :P
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Raspberry pi forums "banned" me again - <LOL - facepalmed hard>
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2021, 06:31:31 am »
Linus was right. Honestly to maintain control of a non trivial software project you have to be an asshole to people here and there. They are nests of complacency and disorder at the best of times all of which cost you dearly later down the line. However you need to nurture good behaviour at the same time.

Everyone only talks about how mean people were to them because it’s cheap and easy being a victim.
 
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