Author Topic: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size  (Read 8382 times)

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Offline Miti

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2021, 01:01:48 pm »
I started using rechargeable batteries in everything that doesn't get lost or goes hiding (such as kids toys) for a very long time. Wireless keyboards and mice, remote controls, flash lights, cameras, RC remote, etc. My preferred ones were Powerex (always bought on sale from Canada Computers) for high current applications such as flash lights, and Eneloop for low discharge such as remote controls and wireless mice. One annoying thing about Powerex is that any drop or shock, would increase the self discharge current ten folds. Maybe being high capacity, the separator is very thin and it gets damaged by shock.
Once I discovered Ikea Ladda, I was super happy with them and I started replacing Powerex ones everywhere. Eneloops still go strong in all the devices I put them but I don't buy new anymore.
I jut bought two sets of the new Ikea Ladda model (green-ish with white text) and they seem to be the same product as the old ones (white with black text). The price is $8.99 CAD, plus 13% HST is $10.16, that makes it $2.54 a piece. Not bad at all!
They have the same weight, size, perfectly identical voltage out of the box, etc. I expect to have the same low self discharge but that's TBD.
I can see the package being cheaper, they are packed in paper rather than in plastic blisters, but I don't know why they changed the colors, maybe it's just a commercial gimmick.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 01:04:59 pm by Miti »
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Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2021, 04:10:58 am »
So I ended up buying some Energiser "Ultimate Lithium" AA's for my keyboard and mouse.

They work great in the mouse but the keyboard refuses to power on. Measuring the voltage, the new lithium batteries measure 1.8 volts each, which seems quite high. I'm guessing the keyboard is expecting a maximum of around 3 volts, not 3.6?
 

Online Berni

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2021, 05:28:56 am »
Yeah the lithium AAs are a bit high in voltage compared to a regular alkaline AA. Usually products don't care and work fine, but there are exeptions. Tho battery charge indicators will be wrong.

For example my Agilent handheld DMM has a setting for selecting lithium batteries, so that the battery gauge icon in the corner shows the correct charge remaining (It just looks at open circuit voltage, so the voltage curve is important). But this is a very rare feature on products.

Tho even normal AAs are a bit higher than 1.5V when brand new but quickly drop back down. You might be able to discharge those lithium in the mouse and swap them over into the keyboard once there voltage dropped enugh. Or open up the keyboard and add a diode in series with the battery to drop the extra 0.6V
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2021, 05:40:32 am »
So I ended up buying some Energiser "Ultimate Lithium" AA's for my keyboard and mouse.

They work great in the mouse but the keyboard refuses to power on. Measuring the voltage, the new lithium batteries measure 1.8 volts each, which seems quite high. I'm guessing the keyboard is expecting a maximum of around 3 volts, not 3.6?

Also watch using the Lithium's in multimeters. There was a chunk of discussion in one of the 121GW threads in particular.
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Offline peter-h

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2021, 10:47:59 am »
The main issue is that rechargeable batteries have a lower cell voltage (1.2V for NICD/NIMH, 1.4V for Eneloops) than primary ones (1.5-1.6V) and most products have their "battery status" detection set up for the latter.

That's why Eneloops are much better in practice. But most products still end up wasting much of their capacity, by premature "empty battery" detection.

If somebody came up with a rechargeable battery which is 1.5V they would clean up.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2021, 10:58:12 am »
I use the black Eneloop Pro's and they are great. But because they are so expensive I don't use them in long life stuff like remote controls.
I just throw alkalines in those and hope they don't leak. But I've found that only the stuff that is left and forgotten that leak, not stuff used daily like remotes.
For a charger I use a Nitecore UM4
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2021, 11:05:05 am »
So I ended up buying some Energiser "Ultimate Lithium" AA's for my keyboard and mouse.

They work great in the mouse but the keyboard refuses to power on. Measuring the voltage, the new lithium batteries measure 1.8 volts each, which seems quite high. I'm guessing the keyboard is expecting a maximum of around 3 volts, not 3.6?

Yep, not that uncommon. Usually a lowish load for a few minutes will take the edge off the fresh peak voltage.
 

Offline retiredcaps

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2021, 07:17:15 pm »
I use the black Eneloop Pro's and they are great. But because they are so expensive I don't use them in long life stuff like remote controls.
If black Eneloop Pro is 2550 mAh and you are willing to accept a small drop in capacity, Ikea Ladda 2450 mAh AA are listed for $10 Aussie dollars for pack of 4 as per

https://www.ikea.com/au/en/p/ladda-rechargeable-battery-hr06-aa-1-2v-50504692/

Just make sure they say "Made in Japan" on the packaging as some of the pictures earlier in this thread has shown.
 

Offline Miti

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2021, 08:13:54 pm »
Just make sure they say "Made in Japan" on the packaging as some of the pictures earlier in this thread has shown.

That's what I bought and they are made in Japan.
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Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2021, 07:39:39 am »
So I ended up buying some Energiser "Ultimate Lithium" AA's for my keyboard and mouse.

They work great in the mouse but the keyboard refuses to power on. Measuring the voltage, the new lithium batteries measure 1.8 volts each, which seems quite high. I'm guessing the keyboard is expecting a maximum of around 3 volts, not 3.6?

Yep, not that uncommon. Usually a lowish load for a few minutes will take the edge off the fresh peak voltage.

I put the batteries that I installed in my mouse into my keyboard (they were measuring about 1.7v each) and they work fine.

Looks like the over-voltage cut-off for Lenovo wireless keyboards is just over 3.4 volts.
 

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2021, 08:25:01 am »
I started using rechargeable batteries in everything that doesn't get lost or goes hiding (such as kids toys) for a very long time. Wireless keyboards and mice, remote controls, flash lights, cameras, RC remote, etc. My preferred ones were Powerex (always bought on sale from Canada Computers) for high current applications such as flash lights, and Eneloop for low discharge such as remote controls and wireless mice. One annoying thing about Powerex is that any drop or shock, would increase the self discharge current ten folds. Maybe being high capacity, the separator is very thin and it gets damaged by shock.
Once I discovered Ikea Ladda, I was super happy with them and I started replacing Powerex ones everywhere. Eneloops still go strong in all the devices I put them but I don't buy new anymore.
I jut bought two sets of the new Ikea Ladda model (green-ish with white text) and they seem to be the same product as the old ones (white with black text). The price is $8.99 CAD, plus 13% HST is $10.16, that makes it $2.54 a piece. Not bad at all!
They have the same weight, size, perfectly identical voltage out of the box, etc. I expect to have the same low self discharge but that's TBD.
I can see the package being cheaper, they are packed in paper rather than in plastic blisters, but I don't know why they changed the colors, maybe it's just a commercial gimmick.

It seems that there are currently two types of LADDA AA rechargeable batteries available at Ikea Australia.

Ikea article number 703.038.76 - LADDA AA 1.2v 2450mAh (white packaging) - AUD$14.99/4 pack
Ikea article number 505.046.92 - LADDA AA 1.2v 2450mAh (greenish packaging) - AUD$10.00/4 pack

It looks like 703.038.76 are being phased out and will be unavailable soon and a similar thing is happening with the AAA size, except that the new ones are 750mAh whereas the older style was 900mAh.

On the older type, Ikea claim a life time of "approx. 5 years", whereas on the newer type, they've removed all references to life time.

I called Ikea and they couldn't tell me anything more, including where they were manufactured. Maybe someone else is able to confirm?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2021, 11:01:57 am »
Made in Japan. Same for the white AAA
 

Offline rdl

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2021, 11:08:22 am »
I don't really see the issue with cost of Eneloop or equivalent batteries. While they may cost 10x as much as the cheapest batteries, all you have to do is get 10 recharge cycles from them to break even. And most are rated for many, many more than that.

Amazon Basics AA - 48 for $15 = 32 cents each, one time use
Panasonic Eneloop AA -  8 for $20 = $2.50 each, recharge up to 2100 times.
Even if you only get 1% of max rated cycles they're cheaper.
 

Offline deadlylover

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2021, 12:35:18 pm »
I called Ikea and they couldn't tell me anything more, including where they were manufactured. Maybe someone else is able to confirm?

I can't buy them yet for another few weeks (backorder still), but I think some people on other forums have confirmed they are made in Japan.

There are generally two types of low self discharge chemistry, "high cap" (~2450/900 mAh for AA/AAA, AKA eneloop pro) or normal (~1900/750mAh AA/AAA, normal eneloop).

You will see 500 cycles advertised for high capacity variants, and 2100 for normal capacity.

There is a much lower capacity one, 1000mAh for AA size, those are only good for things like wireless gaming mice because they're a bit lighter (AA is 10g lighter than the high cap variant). You'd be surprised on how much a few grams can matter for a mouse.

Forget the lofty 500/2100 advertised cycles, no one charges like that in the real world (majority of charge cycles being 0.25C/3Hr 10 mins for the actual rated test). They are doing partial cycles which will dramatically increase cycle life, whereas charging normally by time for a dumb charger, or -delta voltage tends to get the cells a little hot.

You'll see smarter chargers terminate at a set voltage with a bit of a top up trickle for a nice balance of charging speed without overcharging.

Ughh this is from memory, but if you use and abuse the cells then you'll get something like ~50 cycles for high cap, and ~300 for normal capacity cells. After that the internal impedance is too high for extreme discharge applications, so they will spend the rest of time in remote duty after that.
 

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2021, 10:48:30 pm »
Made in Japan. Same for the white AAA

Well spotted!
 

Offline Miti

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2021, 11:21:57 pm »
And these are the new models. Still made in Japan.
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Offline cortex_m0

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2021, 12:44:28 am »
Ughh this is from memory, but if you use and abuse the cells then you'll get something like ~50 cycles for high cap, and ~300 for normal capacity cells. After that the internal impedance is too high for extreme discharge applications, so they will spend the rest of time in remote duty after that.

What is "use and abuse" in your experience? The only consumer electronics where I've observed poor performance from low discharge NIMH batteries was a digital camera that probably had the under voltage lockout set too low for NiMH. You'd get like 6 photos from a freshly charged set.
 

Offline retiredcaps

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2021, 02:04:09 am »
Project Farm Which AA Rechargeable Battery is Best after 1 Year? Let's find out! Eneloop, Duracell, Amazon, EBL



He measures internal resistance in this video.
 

Offline deadlylover

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2021, 02:32:12 am »
What is "use and abuse" in your experience?

Deep discharges in flashlight applications. I think camera flashes were another killer.  :P

For better or worse, lots of equipment struggle to work below say 1.1V or 1.0V per cell anyway.

So I think realistically we can get a more reasonable ~100-150 cycles out of the high capacity variants, but I wanted people to know that there are certainly use cases where you can only get ~50 cycles before the cells start dropping like flies (which is ten percent of the advertised claims, I used to see this a lot on the flashlight enthusiast forums).

You can find some cycle testing on aacycler.com.
 

Offline retiredcaps

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2021, 03:05:29 am »
I finally found my first set of AA Eneloops.  They are 10+ years old.  Initially, there were used in a D cell sized shell so I could use them in a D cell battery powered device.  It was used for 8 months daily and recharged to full daily.

Afterward, the set went into a monitoring/listening device for about 3.5 years.  It was used daily, last about 12 hours and then recharged to full daily.  So it's easily got over 1,500 cycles, maybe even 2,000, but I will be conservative and say 1,500 cycles. The discharge rate for this set is basically constant with little to no spikes or high current demands.

My charger is a BT-C700 and using the quick test function to measure internal resistance just now, I get 113 and 97 for the initial set.  On a set of random 5+ year old Eneloops with unknown cycles, I get 53 and 54.  On a set of 11 year old Energizer non lsd 2300 mAh, I get 950 and 979.

The last time I ran a capacity measurement on this initial set, I think it was still close to 1900mAh.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 03:28:28 am by retiredcaps »
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2021, 03:09:12 am »
It was something we figured out back in the early days of NiMh and R/C receiver packs AA's universally SUCK for impedance including Enerloops in higher draw applications. The initial Enerloops were also very temperature sensitive on that front and even near freezing the voltage losses were actually terminal for a few R/C planes as the digital servos loaded up the packs. The higher capacity cells were just a no go for anything needing a bit of performance.

The Fix was generally to get out of AA's and go back to bigger framed Sanyo or Panasonic cells to drop the impedance.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2021, 05:58:34 am »
I started buying Eneloops at least 10 years ago and have also bought some of the Japan made Amazon LSD NiMH and some later ones that turned out to be made in China. The eneloops are all still holding up great, and most of the Amazon cells are too. I have had a couple of those get damaged in multi-cell devices where one cell went dead faster and got reverse charged slightly by the other cells. I haven't bought disposable AA/AAA cells in quite a few years now though I've ended up with enough free ones that I still have them in some remote controls. A significant advantage of a good quality NiMH cell is they rarely leak. In fact I don't think I've ever had one leak and I cannot say that about alkaline.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2021, 07:35:58 am »
What is "use and abuse" in your experience?

Deep discharges in flashlight applications. I think camera flashes were another killer.  :P
It is said that the biggest killer of NiCd and NiMH cells is polarity reversal, which is what happens when one cell is fully discharged and other cells in series keep forcing current through it, initiating abnormal electrochemical processes which charge the cell in reverse.

This trivially happens in "dumb" loads like incandescent flashlights and power tools, but anything with a boost converter in it (LED lights, camera flashes) can do it too. Ideally, such devices should be equipped with undervoltage shutdown.
 

Online David Hess

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2021, 04:28:36 pm »
Most NiCd and NiMH failures I have had were due to shorts through the separator.  In the past the solution with NiCd cells was to use low leakage/high temperature cells which use a thicker and better separator.  After my first batch of normal NiMH cells failed due to shorts after only a couple years, I guessed that low leakage NiMH cells would display the same advantage and as far as I can tell, they do.
 

Offline Miti

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Re: Rechargable vs. Non-Rechargable Batteries - AA/AAA Size
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2021, 04:47:51 pm »
Project Farm Which AA Rechargeable Battery is Best after 1 Year? Let's find out! Eneloop, Duracell, Amazon, EBL



He measures internal resistance in this video.

I just watched the video. I'm completely sold out to Ikea Ladda...  :-+
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