Really RS Components, I am not allowed to order solder anymore??

[Keith956]

Apparently from 1 Mar 2018, sale of lead metal ( excluding roofing sheet, batteries or ammunition) is banned to consumers :
https://ila-reach.org/2018/01/new-restrictions-and-labelling-requirements-affect-lead-from-march-1-2018/

I had no trouble ordering 60/40 solder from RS last week. It's definitely not banned in the UK.

[penfold]

Again, it's not ONE rule. The entire issue is that two entirely distinct regulations are at work here. Each one IS cohesive within itself. They don't really tie into each other because they each have entirely different goals.
See what I wrote early in this thread:

Two regulations are at work:
RoHS (which required lead solder to be eliminated from new products) is about environmental protection.
REACH (which restricts the sale of lead solder to consumers) is about consumer safety.

I am not questioning whether or not the restriction is triggered by either RoHS or REACH, I am expressing scepticism whether or not the true justification for the ban was that it's deemed an "uncontrolled risk" under RoHS and REACH. Recycling schemes currently exist which are considered adequate risk mitigation for preventing old lead containing electronic equipment entering landfills and evidence linking any cases of lead poisoning to leaded solder is somewhat lacking.

If you consider that lead roofing materials are still available, and the replacement of such items is not restricted to professionals and it DOES put the DIYer in direct contact with lead compounds which are readily absorbed by the body, again which electronics soldering does not according to the statement from HSE. It now becomes a question of how one is considered an uncontrolled risk for the general public and not the other.

[tooki]

Again, it's not ONE rule. The entire issue is that two entirely distinct regulations are at work here. Each one IS cohesive within itself. They don't really tie into each other because they each have entirely different goals.
See what I wrote early in this thread:

Two regulations are at work:
RoHS (which required lead solder to be eliminated from new products) is about environmental protection.
REACH (which restricts the sale of lead solder to consumers) is about consumer safety.

I am not questioning whether or not the restriction is triggered by either RoHS or REACH, I am expressing scepticism whether or not the true justification for the ban was that it's deemed an "uncontrolled risk" under RoHS and REACH. Recycling schemes currently exist which are considered adequate risk mitigation for preventing old lead containing electronic equipment entering landfills and evidence linking any cases of lead poisoning to leaded solder is somewhat lacking.

If you consider that lead roofing materials are still available, and the replacement of such items is not restricted to professionals and it DOES put the DIYer in direct contact with lead compounds which are readily absorbed by the body, again which electronics soldering does not according to the statement from HSE. It now becomes a question of how one is considered an uncontrolled risk for the general public and not the other.

As best I can tell, listing under REACH is about inherent human and environmental toxicity of a compound, not about net risk after risk mitigation.

I don't know under what justification lead roofing materials could be exempted from REACH. However, what constitutes "restricting purchase by the general public" seems to vary wildly. Anecdotally, it seems that many distributors that cater primarily to professionals will take your word for it that you're a professional, and sell it to you anyway.

[penfold]

As best I can tell, listing under REACH is about inherent human and environmental toxicity of a compound, not about net risk after risk mitigation.

We might be on crossed wires because to say "...listing under..." is quite different to saying "...restricted as a result of..." which is where risk mitigation comes in

[tooki]

As best I can tell, listing under REACH is about inherent human and environmental toxicity of a compound, not about net risk after risk mitigation.

We might be on crossed wires because to say "...listing under..." is quite different to saying "...restricted as a result of..." which is where risk mitigation comes in

The relevant part of REACH is Annex XVII, which is the part that actually restricts trade in it. Here's the entry for lead: https://echa.europa.eu/substances-restricted-under-reach/-/dislist/details/0b0236e1807e30a6

What's weird is that the draft explanatory document for that made it clear that it was focused on items that babies could mouth.

But the Swiss chemical trade association's press release says that the EU lead consortium's guidance on Annex XVII compliance expressly listed lead solder as a product whose reclassification (as a listed material) requires it to be restricted from consumer sale.

The other thing is something called Article 33. https://www.tsgconsulting.com/news-detail/lead-on-reach-candidate-list/

But honestly, what a f••king mess of a regulation, in the sense that it seems to me to be a web of various rules.

[penfold]

As best I can tell, listing under REACH is about inherent human and environmental toxicity of a compound, not about net risk after risk mitigation.

We might be on crossed wires because to say "...listing under..." is quite different to saying "...restricted as a result of..." which is where risk mitigation comes in

The relevant part of REACH is Annex XVII, which is the part that actually restricts trade in it. Here's the entry for lead: https://echa.europa.eu/substances-restricted-under-reach/-/dislist/details/0b0236e1807e30a6

What's weird is that the draft explanatory document for that made it clear that it was focused on items that babies could mouth.

But the Swiss chemical trade association's press release says that the EU lead consortium's guidance on Annex XVII compliance expressly listed lead solder as a product whose reclassification (as a listed material) requires it to be restricted from consumer sale.

The other thing is something called Article 33. https://www.tsgconsulting.com/news-detail/lead-on-reach-candidate-list/

But honestly, what a f••king mess of a regulation, in the sense that it seems to me to be a web of various rules.

IKR, but application of reach is down to the member states (and those who.. err.. aren't), the REACH document itself is very prescriptive in areas, but any exemption or restriction is nearly impossible to attribute to any one source yet all states seem to have the same outcome.

Its maybe just some perceived lack of objectivity I'm imagining the authorities having when considering whether "soldering" is a worthwhile task for a hobbyist and perhaps to a layperson which swung the restriction rather than considering the facts and mitigation for lead/lead-free. This is where my backing falls apart, because a) all I need to do to use lead solder is pick it up off my day-job workbench (and pretend I didn't) and b) I'm not totally against lead-free, it just not as nice. But something makes me think the powers that be weren't considering the pros and cons objectively. If that makes sense. Especially when weighed against roof flashing strips being the task with an actual likelihood of exposure.

[tooki]

Oh, you make total sense. Had anyone with two technical brain cells to rub together been in charge of RoHS, it would never have banned lead in electronics, since they would have realized that the overwhelming bulk of lead in electronics was in CRTs, which were very clearly on their way out, and were indeed nearly entirely obsolete by the time RoHS took effect. There was definitely no objectivity at play.

I know even less about REACH, just that it's a much bigger Jabba the Hutt of a law.

[coppercone2]

people do burn PCBs but the problem is like 150 smart phone boards being toasted at the same time inside of a barrel all day every day in some village

[Siwastaja]

However, the huge 'registered' Companies that manufacture
multiple millions of devices/circuits worldwide, are the ones that should be limited!   

But they ARE limited, have been for a long time now. (See RoHS for example.)

Yes, restricted from selling stuff containing lead to consumers (I've not needed to check recently but I assume even the remaining exemptions have been revoked for telecoms and other non-consumer stuff?), but professionals have never been restricted in purchasing it for prototype and legacy rework/repair stuff at their own discretion.

Please read the quote you replied to, no need to run in circles with obvious facts.

[penfold]

However, the huge 'registered' Companies that manufacture
multiple millions of devices/circuits worldwide, are the ones that should be limited!   

But they ARE limited, have been for a long time now. (See RoHS for example.)

Yes, restricted from selling stuff containing lead to consumers (I've not needed to check recently but I assume even the remaining exemptions have been revoked for telecoms and other non-consumer stuff?), but professionals have never been restricted in purchasing it for prototype and legacy rework/repair stuff at their own discretion.

Please read the quote you replied to, no need to run in circles with obvious facts.

I agree it was somewhat pedantic, but with regard to the actual topic, without a distinction between "restriction of purchase" and "restriction of sales", your statement offered no clarification.

[drussell]

What's weird is that the draft explanatory document for that made it clear that it was focused on items that babies could mouth.

But the Swiss chemical trade association's press release says that the EU lead consortium's guidance on Annex XVII compliance expressly listed lead solder as a product whose reclassification (as a listed material) requires it to be restricted from consumer sale.

My guess is that any idea surrounding banning the sale of solder was primarily focused on banning the sale of leaded plumbing solder.  Leaded solder for electronics being sold to consumers was probably never even really properly considered by the crafters of such legislation.

[james_s]

My guess is that any idea surrounding banning the sale of solder was primarily focused on banning the sale of leaded plumbing solder.  Leaded solder for electronics being sold to consumers was probably never even really properly considered by the crafters of such legislation.

You might be right, although I think it's been years since I've seen leaded plumbing solder in stores. I wonder how much of the lead actually makes it into the water, I'm guessing it must be not much. My house is all copper plumbing with leaded solder.

[drussell]

I wonder how much of the lead actually makes it into the water, I'm guessing it must be not much. My house is all copper plumbing with leaded solder.

Very, very little, at least under normal chemical conditions, especially when you're just talking about joints.

Places like Flint still have actual PIPES made of lead that are somewhat surprisingly even historically normally reasonably safe because of the passivization layer that builds up on the inside...  No significant amount of lead typically actually leaches into the water from these systems under "normal" circumstances.  The issue in Flint was the disaster of introducing completely different-than-historic, insufficiently treated, chemically reactive water into what is essentially such a carefully balanced system.

Not that I'm saying it's good to ever intentionally put lead in direct contact with your water supply given the science which we now know and new joints will leach some small amount of lead into the water before it becomes mostly inert, but on just a joint that should be very minimal overall exposure.  Lead pipes themselves does seem like a bit of a bad idea in hindsight even though they were once cheap and flexy, easy to install I suppose?

[drussell]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add...

My house is all copper plumbing with leaded solder.

"Mine too..."

[penfold]

My guess is that any idea surrounding banning the sale of solder was primarily focused on banning the sale of leaded plumbing solder.  Leaded solder for electronics being sold to consumers was probably never even really properly considered by the crafters of such legislation.

You might be right, although I think it's been years since I've seen leaded plumbing solder in stores. I wonder how much of the lead actually makes it into the water, I'm guessing it must be not much. My house is all copper plumbing with leaded solder.

I think you're on to something there. As drussell stated that a properly made lead joint won't leach anything significant into the water, however I've heard there are combinations of fluxes that don't readily wash out during purge and cause significant corosion over time, presumably resulting in compounds that enter the bloodstream... I just can't find any references to which fluxes they may be

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

I am a US Physician who was definitely involved in occupational lead exposure control. There are still lead PIPES everywhere. All the cities had mostly lead pipes. Only newer communities have plastic pipes and even those communities may get their water from the old system. Remember, Plumber comes from the Latin word for Lead. There are some theories that lead exposure brought down the Roman Empire.
The Flint, Michigan exposure came from switching the water from the usual source, which was the Detroit Water System, to a local river, which had been polluted from industrial use a long time ago (and could dissolve the lead in the old pipes)
I don't know who thought the river water was OK, nobody in Michigan who I know of would drink from any river near Flint. I am from Michigan.
I would imagine the use of lead pipes was universal outside of the US also.
Lead leaches into the water if the water is acidic. Otherwise it does not leach out in any quantity.
Some ceramic (homemade pottery mostly) had lead in the glaze and this could leach out if you used the bowl for something like tomato sauce. Pewter tableware had lead in it in the past and lots of it is still in use. Never serve Gazpacho in hand made ceramics.
Burning batteries for recycling has always been a big contributor to workplace lead exposure and there are special rules and process for dealing with this exposure. Lead is remelted from old, dead batteries.
Lead was banned from car bodies because of the occupational exposure, smoothing out the lead joints meant grinding at some point which put the lead into the air quite efficiently.
Lead slag on top of molten solder pots is an issue because it is discarded and turn easily to dust.
Hand soldering, even in mass production, has never been shown to be a risk from lead fumes, but hand to mouth is certainly the risk and there are OSHA rules for these occupations. Wash your hands before dinner is just one of the rules that applies to us.

Chemicals do leach out of plastic pipes also but the compounds disappear from the water after using the pipes for maybe a few weeks.

[Keith956]

I wonder how much of the lead actually makes it into the water, I'm guessing it must be not much. My house is all copper plumbing with leaded solder.

A bit like 'How much mercury in tooth fillings is absorbed over the years'. Arguably removing it is more dangerous than leaving it there.

[CambridgeMart]

I also fell foul of the RS refusing to ship leaded solder to 'non professional' users and being hit with a postage charge because it reduced the order value belowe £30. The irony is that I am a professional engineer as well as a hobbyist, but I don't run a business (I'm sure many of us are in the same boat), so the rule has become that they will only sell to registered businesses regardless of whether there's anyone qualified in the business or not.
As far as the environmental aspect is concerned, where does lead come from in the first place? Granted it's not pure lead in most cases, but lead sulphide (galena), but that doesn't make it any less harmful.

[Microdoser]

I also fell foul of the RS refusing to ship leaded solder to 'non professional' users and being hit with a postage charge because it reduced the order value belowe £30. The irony is that I am a professional engineer as well as a hobbyist, but I don't run a business (I'm sure many of us are in the same boat), so the rule has become that they will only sell to registered businesses regardless of whether there's anyone qualified in the business or not.
As far as the environmental aspect is concerned, where does lead come from in the first place? Granted it's not pure lead in most cases, but lead sulphide (galena), but that doesn't make it any less harmful.

In my case I was purchasing it for my business, a business which is registered and designs electronics, but they still did not want to sell it to me! I tried click and collect first, and was told it had to be posted, then when I tried to get it posted they just removed it from the order without even telling me.

After a strongly worded message, they still did not reply or communicate in any way, they just shipped it and charged me the right amount, being free postage.

I now have enough solder to see me for many years. I think I will try various dodgy sources on AliExpress before I buy from RS again...

[RayRay]

My advice to anyone encountering this issue, get Mechanic 63/37 solder from Aliexpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000808497448.html
or this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000273337131.html
Their solder is of excellent quality, and I've had nothing but good experience with it!

[gnif]

Just a delayed followup.

RS did give me an account with them, but I had to prove I was a business (provide my ABN, etc). So while this was a solution for me, many people will still be left unable to order products containing lead. When the solder was finally shipped it came with a ton of documentation on the "hazardous" material, basically stating that if I am caught improperly disposing of it that I will be prosecuted, etc.

[Microdoser]

Just a delayed followup.

RS did give me an account with them, but I had to prove I was a business (provide my ABN, etc). So while this was a solution for me, many people will still be left unable to order products containing lead. When the solder was finally shipped it came with a ton of documentation on the "hazardous" material, basically stating that if I am caught improperly disposing of it that I will be prosecuted, etc.

I have just decided to not buy from them any more. Had they sent any message letting me know in advance that this was a policy, giving me time to respond, then I might not have decided that. As it was, even though I am a business and have an account, they just didn't ship it and didn't even respond after being contacted. Stuff 'em.

Now I will go to a marketplace that has less concern over that sort of thing, like AliExpress or eBay. I suspect this will be a wider 'unexpected consequence' of the legislation.

[Ed.Kloonk]

How long until lead-free rolls sold with fake 63/37 labels start showing up?

[Matt Coates]

Somerset solders are really good - https://www.somersetsolders.com/ Give them a ring and let them know you're a 'professional user' and they will happily sell you leaded paste and solder. Its well priced, great quality and freshly delivered from Qualitek. Most paste I've ordered from Farnell/Rs has been very close to expiry after sitting in the warehouse for many months.

[ejeffrey]

And you're not even living in EU... those fuckturd want to even ban lead ammunition. (To be replaced by much more dangerous steel one)

The British army were considering banning lead 20 years ago due to it beeing "hazedous to health" Like it made much difference to you when travelling through you at supersonic speeds.

It's not about the danger to the person being shot.  It's the 99.99% of rounds spent in training or practice -- often at outdoor target ranges where they are just shot into a dirt mound.