Recommendations for new video camera for my channel

[TheDefpom]

Hi all,
Anyone that follows my channel knows I have been trying to improve my video setup over the past few months.

I purchased a Canon EOS750D DSLR camera and have been recording with that for the past 5 months or so, but I have been struggling with the focus range. As I use an over bench view the camera has to focus for about half of the distance. I have tried setting the f to a larger number to do this, but a side effect is that it greatly reduces the sharpness overall and the resulting high ISO setting results in graininess, FYI I currently have about 3000 Lumen of light at the bench top, with 95CRI lights.

Prior to spending $1000 on this camera I was using my iPhone 6S to record the footage, it could do a better job in most cases, but the lack of optical zoom was a pain.

So I am now seriously thinking of buying another camera, this time a 4K video camera (I only intend to do 1080p but figure that a better camera will have more headroom quality wise).

The main criteria for me is that it must allow for a wide focus range with good video quality, so it can focus from about 20cm to about 1m away at the same time, it must also have a flip out and rotating screen so it can be seen from the front when needed, and external mic input.

Anyone have any suggestions, or advice ?

[EEVblog]

Are you actually talking about depth of field?
i.e. having everything in focus at the same time over that distance?
Or just the ability to focus over that range.

I suspect you mean the former, but it's not clear.

I mostly leave my camera set at a fixed F5.6 as a tradeoff for greater depth of field vs potential image degradation (grain noise) due to lack of light. It was a lower value on my previous camera.

My new cam is the Sony NX80, and has been very impressive, but not cheap.

[EEVblog]

Oh, I see you said at the same time, so you mean depth of field.
Having an overhead bench cam you can see and use (below head height) and then asking it to get half that distance depth of field focus at that distance is an incredibly tough ask.
i.e. asking a camera to have depth of field of say 25cm from 50cm away is a tall order.
I suspect to do that properly you'd need a full frame camera sensor perhaps if your previous APS-C sized sensor couldn't do it. Either that, or a faster lens.
Personally I'd look at arranging your setup so you don't need such a large depth of field.

A 4K camera for the same sensor size and lens speed is actually going to give you worse performance as the light gathering of each pixel is smaller.

[TheDefpom]

Thanks Dave, yes I meant depth of field, at least one of us knows what I’m talking about, pity it’s not me lol.

I did have the camera lower and as you mentioned having it further away helped a bit, it currently sits at head height whilst standing.

The setting I found that seems ALMOST good enough is f16, anything lower than that results in very obvious out of focus whilst moving on the bench, but higher results in a sudden drop in quality, even 16 is pushing it with the quality.

Unfortunately my work space is very small, I don’t really have room for a tripod in front of me whilst working at the bench, as you do, the above bench view is what works best for me, usually, even if I would prefer to do it differently!

I don’t want to take another expensive gamble on a camera, the DSLR hasn’t been completely suitable for this, but it has at least taught me a bit of what I do actually need!

[rjp]

smaller sensors and wider/shorter lenses give you more DOF

larger sensors and bigger lenses give you less.

you can muck around with all this at places like http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html if you want to see whats possible with your camera.

I would have *thought* a < 30mm lens  on your camera would get you in the ballpark.

[boffin]

I'm currently using a canon HF600 on a Monopod which is stick into the wall. I have two (cheap) swivel mounts back to back on the end of the monopod, so can aim the camera in pretty much any direction/angle.  For closeup shots I use my celphone (Samsung S8) held on a celphone mount at about 10cm and the zoom on the phone.  Cheap, or what I had on hand

Oh, and a MAONO Lavalier Microphone, $25 from Amazon. Possibly the best investment I've made

[EEVblog]

The setting I found that seems ALMOST good enough is f16, anything lower than that results in very obvious out of focus whilst moving on the bench, but higher results in a sudden drop in quality, even 16 is pushing it with the quality.

Yep, running F16 is nuts, you need a seriously fast lens and a metric crap ton of light.

Unfortunately my work space is very small, I don’t really have room for a tripod in front of me whilst working at the bench, as you do, the above bench view is what works best for me, usually, even if I would prefer to do it differently!

Flexible arm mounted on the bench edge?
https://www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au/manfrotto-237hd-heavy-duty-flexible-arm
I have one of these on my edited bench video camera.

I don’t want to take another expensive gamble on a camera, the DSLR hasn’t been completely suitable for this, but it has at least taught me a bit of what I do actually need!

Maybe consider a better lens?

[tautech]

Since you got the new cam Scott your focus (excuse pun) has been on improving lighting and this has definitely helped and in general pic quality is pretty good however lately the auto-focusing is noticeable and could be improved some by just happening faster as Dave mentioned.
If we look your HDMI tester fix vid, the closeup work looks fine but the bench work could do with more lighting still.

Yep you have been cursing it for a while but results are improving so maybe just some more tweaks will get you the results you seek. 

[EEVblog]

Since you got the new cam Scott your focus (excuse pun) has been on improving lighting and this has definitely helped and in general pic quality is pretty good however lately the auto-focusing is noticeable and could be improved some by just happening faster as Dave mentioned.
If we look your HDMI tester fix vid, the closeup work looks fine but the bench work could do with more lighting still.

Yep you have been cursing it for a while but results are improving so maybe just some more tweaks will get you the results you seek.

Seems to be some form of spot light on the bench? An improved lighting solution could do wonders here.

Also, the audio background hiss is quite noticeable, certainly something that can/should be improved.

[TheDefpom]

Rob that video had about 1800 Lumen, I have since added another light and got it physically wider to give more even lighting, and as I said its now about 3000 Lumen, if I crank the lights right up I can just get 4100 Lumen, aka a crap ton, but I don’t like to run things maxed out, they last longer that way.

Ok so maybe a different auto focus lens is the way to go, this one is very slow so I (when I don’t forget) set manual focus instead, if the auto focus was fast I could probably use that and avoid the issue, but certainly being able to set a big depth of field will go a long way if I can get that right.

From memory I think the one it came with is 18mm-55mm or something like that.

I will look at that link Dave and see if it is something I could use, I tend to swing my arms around like a chimpanzee so anything in the way has to be able to take a hit lol.

[tautech]

Rob that video had about 1800 Lumen, I have since added another light and got it physically wider to give more even lighting, and as I said its now about 3000 Lumen, if I crank the lights right up I can just get 4100 Lumen, aka a crap ton, but I don’t like to run things maxed out, they last longer that way.

Ok so maybe a different auto focus lens is the way to go, this one is very slow so I (when I don’t forget) set manual focus instead, if the auto focus was fast I could probably use that and avoid the issue, but certainly being able to set a big depth of field will go a long way if I can get that right.

From memory I think the one it came with is 18mm-55mm or something like that.

I will look at that link Dave and see if it is something I could use, I tend to swing my arms around like a chimpanzee so anything in the way has to be able to take a hit lol.

Yeah that wasn't the best example of your latest work where the auto-focus has been more noticeable.
This your latest @~45s shows clearly the auto-focus issue:
https://youtu.be/vodPQq25vM4?t=40

[TheDefpom]

Dave, I hadn’t actually noticed the hiss, but now you pointed it out I can hear it, yes it is pretty loud.

I might have to add some filtering to the audio to cut that out, I tend to boost the audio by about 3dB maybe 6dB depending upon if I am standing or sitting, I try to aim for a level around -6dB in the final audio if I can.

I tried a few different mics and using the built in one seemed fine compared to the ones I tried,better in some cases, I do use automatic level control in the camera though, that might be part of the issue.

[TheDefpom]

Yeah that wasn't the best example of your latest work where the auto-focus has been more noticeable.
This your latest @~45s shows clearly the auto-focus issue:
https://youtu.be/vodPQq25vM4?t=40

That section of the video was recorded about 5 months ago whilst I was still living in the garage after the flood. It is actually from a Logitec C922 webcam, at the time I was looking at different production methods and I experimented using OBS with the webcams to record, I had issues with some bugs in OBS (I actually lost a bunch of footage because it only recorded at 1 FPS randomly!).

It was actually these issues that prompted me to buy the Canon DSLR.

[tautech]

OK Scott then are only the recent post bags displaying your current setup......oh and the SPD1168X vid ?

[TheDefpom]

Yep that would be about right.

I have so much footage shot for various videos which I am yet to publish, sometimes it even stretches back to last year before the flood!

[EEVblog]

Dave, I hadn’t actually noticed the hiss, but now you pointed it out I can hear it, yes it is pretty loud.
I might have to add some filtering to the audio to cut that out, I tend to boost the audio by about 3dB maybe 6dB depending upon if I am standing or sitting, I try to aim for a level around -6dB in the final audio if I can.
I tried a few different mics and using the built in one seemed fine compared to the ones I tried,better in some cases, I do use automatic level control in the camera though, that might be part of the issue.

Yep, auto again control almost never works, I never used to use it until I got the Sony NX80 which works superbly, but it's got a proper mic pre-amp and I'm using studio quality external rode condenser mics.
Can't you get a good quality lapel mic?
If you have an external mic input then there are countless options available.

[TheDefpom]

When I was recording on my iPhone I used a lapel mic on a boom arm, that mic is a trrs, so it won’t work on the Canon which has a standard 3.5mm trs, I might have to try and find something.

I think solving the video quality issue is the priority though, changing the camera might solve both at once... am looking at about NZ$1700 if I do go with a 4K, but if I will get better results by sticking with 1080p then at least it will be a bit cheaper, this yt thing gets expensive!

[wilfred]

I'd start with brighter lights and stop down and set focus manually. Take control and take care. I really don't think you can spend your way out from under the laws of optics.

Depth of field is a function of lens focal length, Aperture and subject distance. Also included is something called the circle of confusion, an arbitrary point at which the out of focus image is determined to be acceptably sharp under normal viewing conditions. You can't control this so you can ignore it.

The aperture number is the focal length divided by the physical diameter of the diaphram.

Your iPhone was acceptable because it has a short focal length lens and this is squared in the equations so it has the biggest influence in any given setup. It sounds to me like your ideal camera will be one with a short focal length lens.

Cinematographers generally favor a DSLR because the larger image sensor allows use of longer focal length lenses for a given angle of view and hence they can get selective DOF for artistic effect. ie they want small DOF so they can use blur to concentrate viewer attention. You should not select a DSLR.

All three variables of DOF work against each other. If you put the camera further away to increase subject distance you will tend to zoom in to fill the frame. ie you will increase the focal length. Increasing the focal length will reduce the aperture number and hence reduce the DOF. This is why some lenses specify maximum aperture as f3.4-5.6 for example. As you zoom out the fixed diaphram diameter divides more times into the increasing focal length. Kit lenses do make some attempt to maintain the aperture. Pro lenses typically have a cam that alters the diaphram size as you zoom in order to maintain a fixed f-stop (aperture). But this make a lens bigger and heavier and lots more expensive.

So in my opinion you should choose a camera that gives you the subject distance and hence angle of view at an acceptable quality with the shortest focal length lens. That camera will typically have a small sensor (ie iPhone) or a camcorder. But avoid the bigger high end camcorders that have larger sensors. These are getting back to giving cinematographers the DOF controls they want.

But unfortunately camcorders are going out of vogue even faster than point and shoot cameras.

You can also stop the lens down to smaller apertures but then you have to use brighter lights  if you want to avoid sensor noise at higher ISO levels.

But non-pro level camcorders and iPhones don't have the many physical controls that make operation convenient. And they don't have microphone inputs.

Avoiding 60fps would allow longer shutter speeds. At 60fps 1/60th sec is the longest shutter speed possible. At 30fps it is 1/30th. That's twice the light.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.  Keep up the great work I recently found your channel and subscribed.

[EEVblog]

I think solving the video quality issue is the priority though, changing the camera might solve both at once... am looking at about NZ$1700 if I do go with a 4K, but if I will get better results by sticking with 1080p then at least it will be a bit cheaper, this yt thing gets expensive!

There is always the 2nd hand market.
My Sony NEX-GV30 for example that I use for talking head mailbags is a superb quality APSC-C sensor HD video camera with interchangeable E-mount lenses. I got it 2nd hand quite a few years ago now for under AU$1k without a lens. As I had e-mount lenses on my still camera I was good to go. There are likely plenty of good used cameras available.
But as I said, a new camera isn't going to magically fix any video depth of field issue, unless you pay top dollar. You already have a DSLR with APSC-C sensor, you basically can't get better unless you get a real expensive lens, or an expensive full frame camera, but you don't want to go there for the reasons Wilfred mentioned. Maybe a used Canon HFG20 or HFG30 on the cheap, that's the camera I used for most of my videos until recently. Great internal mics, all the manual bells and whistles, and a smaller but high quality sensor and good lenses. But any of the $1000 class "pro-sumer" camcorders would do the trick, again, 2nd hand.

[TheDefpom]

If you think my camera sensor is reasonable then I should look at different lenses to see if I can solve it that way, should be cheaper than a new camera at least.

[rjp]

light light and more light will help all cameras, even the best.

with good light, f8 and a shorter lens, most of the scene should be in focus if you leave it in manual.

if you want autofocus from closeups to distance, DSLR's arent always the best choice, their focusing is best when using the mirror, which doesnt happen on video.

[Towger]

Having read all the posts, my conclusion is also more light.

[EEVblog]

If you think my camera sensor is reasonable then I should look at different lenses to see if I can solve it that way, should be cheaper than a new camera at least.

More light is likely cheaper than a good lens and will give greater guaranteed benefit.
But I can't help but think that a good quality flexible bench mount camera arm will work wonders for the content. It's always better to move the camera to get the right shot than move the gear.
And using a fixed camera above the bench sucks for seeing scope screen and other gear including your bench meter. And given that you do a lot of repair videos, seeing the gear is important.
I'll move and re-position my camera dozens of time during a typical video to get the right angle and framing.

[TheDefpom]

So 3000 Lumen still isn’t enough?

How bright are your lights Dave, Lumen at the bench for comparison?
Obviously I am going to require them to be brighter because of the f16 setting.

When I first got the camera and I was trying to get a better dof I was using f8 or so, but I saw my videos were too dark, which is when I started to increase from about the 800 Lumen my desk lights were providing, which had been adequate for the iPhone.

A strong but flexible mount might be the solution for a different camera shot, as long as it doesn’t shake around it will be ok, I tried a cheaper one some time ago and it wobbled with the slightest vibrations so I scrapped that idea.

I have my camera on a quick disconnect mount, which I have on my overhead rig, tripod and mini tripod, so I can remount it easier, but I am using a mains power adapter instead of a battery so the wire is a restriction, I am doing a live stream this Sunday morning at 8am NZ time whilst I try to repair a hp8901b  so I will see about some different camera angles then. I do want to try and keep it over the bench (purely because of space) but a side on bench view might be possible, it just means it will be harder to use the camera and see its screen. I have tried using the hdmi output on a monitor and that was helpful, but the monitor is a bit far away as there isn’t any room to mount it by my bench.

I did pick up a dual battery pack option with remote, which I intended to use but the remote only operates the photo button, not the record button argh!

[Peabody]

I have no experience with Youtube videos and streaming, but considerable experience with photography.  I'd just like to double down on some of the comments made by others.  Using a larger sensor, such as full frame or APS-C, automatically gives you a shallower depth of field, which is the opposite of what you want.  If depth of field is the major issue you're dealing with, something like MFT, or the even smaller sensor found in a quality point-and-shoot, would give you a greater depth of field.  And remember that a 1080P video only has a 2 megapixel frame size, so resolution/sharpness isn't likely to be an issue.  But the smaller the sensor, the more light you will need to get qualilty video.  Increasing your ISO setting can substitute for increased lighting to some extent, particularly with modern cameras, but the laws of physics eventually get you.

Actually, a quality camcorder in theory should be a pretty good solution - small sensor, good lens, extensive zoom capability.  But unfortunately, most camcorders have a lens that's just too long even when fully zoomed out.  You have to put them too far away to get the field of view you need.

Something like a GoPro is about the right size, but the lens they have is so wide-angle that you get distortion.

I honestly don't know what the ideal camera would be for this.  But so many people are making these videos now that someone should come up with the ideal low-cost camera designed specifically for Youtube videos.  It would have a small, high-quality sensor, zoom lens, auto-focus, good near focus, external mic jack, AGC enable/disable, and full swivel display.  And I also wonder whether USB output would be more useful than HDMI - in other words, it would appear to be a webcam, with no BlackMagic converter needed, but with no loss of quality.

On a side note, if you can't turn off AGC in the Canon camera, Magic Lantern may let you do that.