Refreshingly Audiophool-BS-free feature on a high-end speaker manufacturer

[mikeselectricstuff]

(BTW Price range is £1500 to >£10K - AKA "Divorceware")

[David Hess]

Their web site has plenty of Audiophoolry.  And no sensitivity specifications?  Which models are suitable for tube amplifiers?

[rdl]

I don't think you can sell any kind of high end audio equipment these days without a little bit of "audiophoolery" sneaking in. The specs are there on each product's individual page. They're hiding on a tab to the left side, next to the product picture.

[Vtile]

I don't think you can sell any kind of high end audio equipment these days without a little bit of "audiophoolery"

I don't know ie. Genelec (https://www.genelec.com) is pretty phoolery free, while they produce high end audio equipment.

[RandallMcRee]

Bending wave transducers are quite interesting and seem to be expensive for real reasons:

Manger site:
http://www.mangeraudio.com/en/discover/about/the-manger-sound-transducer

[DrGeoff]

I don't think you can sell any kind of high end audio equipment these days without a little bit of "audiophoolery"

I don't know ie. Genelec (https://www.genelec.com) is pretty phoolery free, while they produce high end audio equipment.

Or if you want to look upmarket a few notches, try ATC. (atcloudspeakers.co.uk/en/).
Or Munro eggs, which are my favourite for mixing in the studio.

[KE5FX]

Arguably the speakers are the only remaining place where genuine sound quality improvements can be made.

But when you spend more on your speakers than the studio monitors used by your favorite artists cost, you're just buying expensive furniture.  NTTAWWT.

[DrGeoff]

Arguably the speakers are the only remaining place where genuine sound quality improvements can be made.

But when you spend more on your speakers than the studio monitors used by your favorite artists cost, you're just buying expensive furniture.  NTTAWWT.

The best you could do is match the mastering engineer's studio playback setup.

[KE5FX]

The best you could do is match the mastering engineer's studio playback setup.

Yep, that's a better way to put it.

[David Hess]

Arguably the speakers are the only remaining place where genuine sound quality improvements can be made.

It is fun to consider the ways that the speakers could be included inside the feedback loop.  That would still leave some distortion mechanisms though.

Since most of the distortion is at lower frequencies unless the speaker designer really screwed up, I would rather concentrate on better performance from the bass driver.

But when you spend more on your speakers than the studio monitors used by your favorite artists cost, you're just buying expensive furniture.

You would still hear less distortion then the mastering engineer.

[kalel]

I assume that sound cards in computers can still use some improvements, as it is possible to notice a perceivable sound quality difference between some on-board soundcards and the cheapest available PCI/PCI-E ones (branded ones at least). Expensive motherboards might have the "quality chips" built in already.

[DrGeoff]

I assume that sound cards in computers can still use some improvements, as it is possible to notice a perceivable sound quality difference between some on-board soundcards and the cheapest available PCI/PCI-E ones (branded ones at least). Expensive motherboards might have the "quality chips" built in already.

You would really have to be desperate to use a computer sound card as a sound source. They are pretty awful.

[Electro Detective]

A set of decent electrostatics and a nice optional sub/s in the right positions

should give half deaf shell shock syndrome professionals, studio wannabees,

and audiophools with awesome imaginations, expectations, waxless ears and bottomless pockets,   

great sound as good as the source signals going in, as long as one doesn't push the system past headroom and sanity limits 


If the source is compressed metal, rap, indie, grunge or commercial Autotuned chipmunk drivel masquerading as music   

don't waste your money on the above, just use earphones or headphones
and the neighbors may stop throwing cig butts, dog turds, used syringes and cond0ms on the lawn  

[Vtile]

Bending wave transducers are quite interesting and seem to be expensive for real reasons:

Manger site:
http://www.mangeraudio.com/en/discover/about/the-manger-sound-transducer

Apparently fine products, but they seem still rely on old paper cones in low ranges, despite the SOUND TRANSDUCER technology:

[tszaboo]

Arguably the speakers are the only remaining place where genuine sound quality improvements can be made.

But when you spend more on your speakers than the studio monitors used by your favorite artists cost, you're just buying expensive furniture.  NTTAWWT.

The best you could do is match the mastering engineer's studio playback setup.

I dont think so. During the mastering, the most important is to look for imperfections and to try to find the best balance of things.

At home the most important is to relax, and to listen to some music.

That is why many prefer something, that "colors" the music. ie doesn't have perfect characteristic.

Mike, thanks for the video, it was interesting to watch.

[dmills]

Actually, the place to spend the cash is probably first on room treatment, THEN on speakers, then buy the electronics  down the local pawn shop (The electronics makes that little difference in comparison).

Regards, Dan.

[rsjsouza]

Pretty cool, Mike. Thanks for sharing.

Interesting tidbit: how to keep the quality of the product: "first of all, keep the staff".

[glarsson]

It is fun to consider the ways that the speakers could be included inside the feedback loop.  That would still leave some distortion mechanisms though.

Since most of the distortion is at lower frequencies unless the speaker designer really screwed up, I would rather concentrate on better performance from the bass driver.

Already invented, designed, manufactured and marketed -- over 50 years ago by Luxman and later by Panasonic, Philips and probably more.

http://www.proaudiodesignforum.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=707
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motional_Feedback

[ruairi]

I love this forum.  Except when we talk about audio.

[retrolefty]

  High end audio is a world onto itself, and I believe it's a real buyer beware world. So subjective and emotional (good music kind of brings that on) that any EE type not in the business will roll their eyes in disbelief. "I can't measure the 'artifacts' you say you hear", "well then you are measuring the wrong thing(s)". But make no mistake loudspeaker transducers and room layout is the limiting factor.

 I'm of the side that says that proper double-blind testing with accurate amplitude matching is the best way to evaluate audio equipment and tell if something is real or just a product or expectation of the listener's mind.


 

[EEVblog]

But when you spend more on your speakers than the studio monitors used by your favorite artists cost, you're just buying expensive furniture.  NTTAWWT.

Interestingly one of the defacto standard industry studio monitors are Yamaha NS10's, a pretty crappy consumer speaker famous because "If it sounds good on NS10's, it'll sound good on most crap consumer speakers"

[EEVblog]

I'm of the side that says that proper double-blind testing with accurate amplitude matching is the best way to evaluate audio equipment and tell if something is real or just a product or expectation of the listener's mind.

No audiophile ever wants to do that because deep down they know that can't pick it.
That's why James Randi's million dollar audiophool prize not only went unclaimed, but no audiophile even tried.

[wraper]

But when you spend more on your speakers than the studio monitors used by your favorite artists cost, you're just buying expensive furniture.  NTTAWWT.

Interestingly one of the defacto standard industry studio monitors are Yamaha NS10's, a pretty crappy consumer speaker famous because "If it sounds good on NS10's, it'll sound good on most crap consumer speakers"

Yep, I find something that sounds good on cheap speakers may sound awful on a very good high sensitivity speakers I have. You start noticing some silent crackling sounds on particular time of the track and other imperfections. Modern records with highly compressed dynamic range music which sounds well on my laptop, sound awful on my speakers because there is a ton of distortions which become obvious. To the point that I download some pirated CDrips made from old CDs because modern remastered (loud) version is awful to listen on such system. But it sure sounds better if listened with crappy earphones in some noisy place.

[IanMacdonald]

Well, most consumer speakers have two design critera:

The widest possible frequency range for the specsheet. Even if that means introducing 'artifacts' such as resonance and harshness.

An 'exaggerated' sound that seems 'better' in the showroom against speakers with a more natural sound. (Of course once you start to use the things you realise it's not actually better.)

Together these result in a speaker that sounds so bad, that even a crude homemade job could easily do better.

However, the objective is to sell the speakers, and these design principles achieve that in the mass market.

[BradC]

An 'exaggerated' sound that seems 'better' in the showroom against speakers with a more natural sound. (Of course once you start to use the things you realise it's not actually better.)

Reminds me of old CRT TV's. A *boring* picture often meant it was accurate. A flat response speaker sounds pretty bland to the average listener ("All highs and lows? Must be BOSE", and "JBL - Just Bloody Loud").

[Yansi]

I don't think their woofers mounted from behind of the baffle is the correct way to do it though.  You likely gonna get some lovely diffractions from the edge.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

But colours the sound restoring depth and brilliance to most difficult passages.

[Electro Detective]

Those benefits quickly diminish once impure oxygen impregnates the cryogenically sealed copper in the Audiophool Limited Edition 'Wise Series' Speaker cables made by ShowMeTheMoney Enterprises

Easily dealt with by buying another 6 meter pair at $1200  cut to length perfectly with nano-meter precision, to avoid unbalanced TDR effects that smear the stereo image during percussive passages 

---------------

Hey guys, did I get all that BS right 
am I deemed worthy enough to hit the boutique hi-fii sales floor? 

those commissions would come in handy 

[dmills]

Hey guys, did I get all that BS right 

Sorry, you forgot to deploy the Quantum Quackery, essential to sell to any true 'phool.

Here is the introductory class https://www.kimber.com/
And here is the advanced class in 'phile bullshit  http://www.machinadynamica.com/ to see how it should be done.

Regards, Dan.