Author Topic: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?  (Read 21399 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2017, 10:32:04 pm »
Not really, people are hired based on qualifications by people who don't understand their work....
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2017, 10:38:51 pm »
Not really, people are hired based on qualifications by people who don't understand their work....

Only once in my career have I seen that. It was a suboptimal company.

OTOH non-standard people are often filtered out too early by clueless HR-droids.
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Online IanB

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2017, 10:45:21 pm »
Not really, people are hired based on qualifications by people who don't understand their work....

That's really not universally (or even commonly) the case. When you hire someone you need someone who can do the job and you don't want to make a mistake. So hiring decisions are made by people who do understand their work. Engineers hire engineers, accountants hire accountants, etc...

Many people here have described their hiring process, so it's not just me saying this. It seems you have had some bad experiences, but that does not mean the whole world is like that.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2017, 08:41:59 am »
I was hired because I was cheap! And I often get thrown in my face the fact that I am not qualified. Any job offer I see for any other company demands a long list of qualifications and often experience.
 

Online IanB

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2017, 09:46:41 am »
Ah yes, but that's the opposite thing.

People may often be refused for a job because of lack of qualifications. However, that is not to say that having a certain qualification will automatically get someone hired.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2017, 09:50:25 am »
oh no, it will be a careful balance of what their experience is and how little can they be payed, we live in a cut throat world driven by profit, and what we don't understand can't hurt us attitudes.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2017, 09:55:33 am »
I was hired because I was cheap! And I often get thrown in my face the fact that I am not qualified. Any job offer I see for any other company demands a long list of qualifications and often experience.

That statement should be repeatedly presented to anybody that advocates not getting a degree because "degrees are worthless" or "engineers are idiots" or similar.

Note that degrees are neither necessary nor sufficient, and that in an ideal world people would give the appropriate weight to a degree and other evidence of capability. But if you can get a degree at the normal time, that's a good bet.

I make no comment on your specific case whatsoever, since I don't know the details.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 09:58:04 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2017, 10:16:46 am »
Well my employer has a habit of moving people from the shop floor to the engineering office whereupon they are thrown in the deep end. Usually they spend around 6 months making small mods to drawings and 3D models so as to get the hang of the filing system and companies existing legacy stuff (like we have one section of the server for BOM's and another for drawings which is a nightmare if you come to it after the fact....... we have grown up in the last few moths and moved to BOM's on drawings driven by the drawing in turn driven by the model).

So on the one hand qualifications are not really taken into account but then in house training does not really happen either and if you want to go further than the boss is comfortable with because "best stick with what we know" the qualifications or lack of is brought up, at 50+ he remembers the days when going to university was about learning not about being a factory for harvesting money and dishing out certificates for low levels of attainment. these days the wealth of information available and things like this forum do slightly take the edge off a qualification if one is intelligent and can get on with it anyway.

As i have often explained we have in the past used an electronic subcontractor who for less that believable prices offered full product design only to present us with work from unintelligent degree holders that I assume were also hired because they were cheap. fortunately for my employer i am intelligent (above average if i believe a test I was given as part of a disability assessment) and was able to make good the mess they made and I'm talking stupid things like a lack of bypass capacitors coupled with a board layout that crashes a uC when you PWM 2amps to the load. Or just being able to write code that did what was asked but code that did what they thought was right when they actually did not understand how the system worked or care and by system I mean the basics of air-conditioning so me with my rudimentary C skills had to fix the code.

We have a guy that has just been brought up to the office and my boss thinks that he can offload some of my work onto him. So he was expected to redesign the wiring of a past system he knows nothing about whilst changing all of the archaic relay based boxes and crude electronics that is now gone from our company with what we now use bearing in mind how it all works. Never going to happen. the guy knows nothing about electronics or electrics, sure he can follow my instructions mostly if I need a little bit of wiring doing like put "x" meters of "x" gauge wire into "x" size pin and fit in "x" location of "x" connector. Sure i could train the guy but then I'd not be doing my job either and I'm not trained or qualified for that matter apparently so they can forget that. For example how will he know which pairs of wires in the loom to have twisted and which to screen.

They have been nice enough to put me on a HNC course (1st year of uni) but this will not teach me what is required to design military grade wiring looms and interact with a subcontractor that uses can communications between devices so I should learning the CAN software and CAN inside out but they are not official qualifications for that...... so I'm learning advanced physics that whilst useful is no good on the job really.

What they should be doing is getting someone in that is qualified AND capable or someone that is newly qualified and intelligent with a view to training them in the practical side of things knowing that they have the theory to understand it all.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2017, 11:08:25 am »
My comments below are only tangentially relevant to the thread, since they are specific to your case. Nonetheless I hope they have wider applicability.

So on the one hand qualifications are not really taken into account but then in house training does not really happen either and if you want to go further than the boss is comfortable with because "best stick with what we know" the qualifications or lack of is brought up, at 50+ he remembers the days when going to university was about learning not about being a factory for harvesting money and dishing out certificates for low levels of attainment. these days the wealth of information available and things like this forum do slightly take the edge off a qualification if one is intelligent and can get on with it anyway.

Previously the generic skill was to know how to gather and extract the necessary information from the few available sources. Nowadays it is the opposite: knowing how to quickly ignore 99% of the available information sources. A problem is that without a good solid theoretical understanding, it can be difficult to spot which sources are insufficient. The same is true for salesmen's claims, where they knowingly don't state where the pitfalls are to be found.

Besides, for most of my engineering career there have been very few available sources because we were pushing the known boundaries. Hence the "old skills" remained vital.

(I hate stackexchange, because it is deliberately designed to cater for "which button do I press" questions. This forum avoids that trap.)

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As i have often explained we have in the past used an electronic subcontractor who for less that believable prices offered full product design only to present us with work from unintelligent degree holders that I assume were also hired because they were cheap.

Things never change.

When I was in contract r&D in the 80s, clients would occasionally say they could get it done cheaper elsewhere. Our standard response was to smile and remind them "pay peanuts, get monkeys".

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They have been nice enough to put me on a HNC course (1st year of uni) but this will not teach me what is required to design military grade wiring looms and interact with a subcontractor that uses can communications between devices so I should learning the CAN software and CAN inside out but they are not official qualifications for that...... so I'm learning advanced physics that whilst useful is no good on the job really.

An HNC should not teach you those skills. Those skill are far too specific and should be part of a training course.

The theoretical knowledge will help you understand the limits of the possible and where you are being technically bullshitted.

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What they should be doing is getting someone in that is qualified AND capable or someone that is newly qualified and intelligent with a view to training them in the practical side of things knowing that they have the theory to understand it all.

Apprenticeships and "polytechnics" are unfashionable, and that is highly regrettable. "Merging" unis and polys was a bad mistake in my opinion. Vive la difference!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2017, 11:21:05 am »

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They have been nice enough to put me on a HNC course (1st year of uni) but this will not teach me what is required to design military grade wiring looms and interact with a subcontractor that uses can communications between devices so I should learning the CAN software and CAN inside out but they are not official qualifications for that...... so I'm learning advanced physics that whilst useful is no good on the job really.

An HNC should not teach you those skills. Those skill are far too specific and should be part of a training course.

The theoretical knowledge will help you understand the limits of the possible and where you are being technically bullshitted.

Quote
What they should be doing is getting someone in that is qualified AND capable or someone that is newly qualified and intelligent with a view to training them in the practical side of things knowing that they have the theory to understand it all.

Apprenticeships and "polytechnics" are unfashionable, and that is highly regrettable. "Merging" unis and polys was a bad mistake in my opinion. Vive la difference!

Yes I am aware of that but this is the big pitfall. We are a small company really, I am the sole electrical person and therefore I have limited time. I am doing the HNC on my own time. I was the one that had to pick the HNC as my boss did not know what to have me study but said that if i was willing to take the qualifications they would pay bearing in mind the amount of electrical work I was starting to do. This however meant that I am doing it on my own time and with difficulty using material that looks like it was written by someone who just read a book or is not very good at explaining things so I am reading another book to fill the gap. However the HNC won't help me in many aspects of what work do. In my opinion they would benefit more from "higher level" knowledge like a working knowledge of CAN bus because we use it in our products. That I am aware of there is no "degree" in CAN bus. Recently my boss came and talked to me about being trained in IPC standards as we have had failures on subcontractors products and he is concerned about stuff I or another subcontractor that works closely with us may be doing. Now that is more useful to the company than the high level physics of the HNC. But for my struggles with the maths I can see the benefit for ME of the HNC, but not to my employer.

It was only this year my boss figured out it might be useful to take me with him on a trip to a customer to resolve the electrical maters. In the past he had thought sitting there describing the fault to me on a vehicle i had no knowledge of would fix it. the result was that i was busum buddies with the customers electrician in hours and he was more open to my suggestions and we gelled even more when I told him i didn't have a degree because he no longer felt threatened and was willing to accept my help.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2017, 11:34:44 am »
It was only this year my boss figured out it might be useful to take me with him on a trip to a customer to resolve the electrical maters. In the past he had thought sitting there describing the fault to me on a vehicle i had no knowledge of would fix it. the result was that i was busum buddies with the customers electrician in hours and he was more open to my suggestions and we gelled even more when I told him i didn't have a degree because he no longer felt threatened and was willing to accept my help.

That's normally the case.

Within well-functioning large companies one function of management is to figure out which minions ought to be talking to each other, introduce them, and get the hell out of the way. The same is true, but can be more problematic, with relations between two SMEs.

"Send reinforcements, we're going to advance" => "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance" is a traditional problem. A classic joke is:

How Shit Happens

In the Beginning was The Plan
And then came the Assumptions
And the Assumptions were without form
And the Plan was completely without substance
And the darkness was upon the face of the Workers
And the Workers spoke amongst themselves, saying "It is a crock of shit, and it stinketh."
And the Workers went unto their Supervisors and sayeth, "It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof."
And the Supervisors went unto their Managers and sayeth unto them, "It is a container of excrement and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it."
And the Managers went unto their Directors and sayeth, "It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength."
And the Directors spoke among themselves, saying one to another, "It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong."
And the Directors went unto the Vice Presidents and sayeth unto them, "It promotes growth and is very powerful."
And the Vice Presidents went unto the President and sayeth unto him, "This new Plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of this Company, and in these Areas in particular."
And the President looked upon The Plan, And saw that it was good, and The Plan became Policy.
And this is how Shit Happens.

There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2017, 11:50:45 am »
The problem is that being small and not understanding that we are actually supplying electrical systems just because there is an amount of braketry so it gets thought of too much in mechanical terms. typically my boss who is the technical director goes out with an air con expert to commission a system. the result is that he is dealing with local contractors on things he does not always understand and often I get a call every 30 minutes relating to electrical things. while it may appear to be the most efficient way with low resources it actually solve nothing to "phone home" to a guy that can't see the problem or put a meter on it. And yes when a technical director talks to a local electrician the guy knows that firstly the technical director knows nothing about electrics and secondly that he is a director so he won't admit to anything or want to appear to not know what he is doing. Let him talk to "another electrician" and he will ease up and allow you to help.

fortunately back here my boss has learnt to let me and the subcontractor we use get on with it without interfering as he has learnt we can be trusted to come up with the best solution with the aims of the company in mind, and we are much faster and more efficient if we are left to get on with it.

The project I am working on now is something that my boss had virtually no hand in and just had to accept my decisions. I am working on it with a fellow mechanical engineer that sits right behind me and it is great. We can just turn around and discuss it when needed and make minor adjustments and optimizations as we go. I tell him i need space for my PCB he asks how much, I state a figure, we look at the mechanics, he plays around and proposed an envelope and we agree, mean time i can give him a 3D model of my PCB so he can see exactly what I am putting in. We need to mount the board while protecting it from vibration so can both go over potential solutions as we are both aware of the mechanical's of the project, we have gone from fully potting the thing and making the assembly hard to an easy solution, but this is the first time two people have been left to get on with it without being micro managed, they trust him as he is good an experienced, and don't have a flipping clue what i am doing..... :)
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2017, 12:16:36 pm »
Apprenticeships and "polytechnics" are unfashionable, and that is highly regrettable. "Merging" unis and polys was a bad mistake in my opinion. Vive la difference!
If you are going to use wording like that in a global forum it needs boldly prefaced with "UK", as polytechnic means very different things in different countries. Some of the highest tier colleges are called polytechnics in some countries, while in the UK it was a term for colleges somewhere between the technical colleges (craft schools) and the universities. It is most unfortunate that they have gone. The UK has almost wiped out its tertiary education for craft and technician level work, persuing a poorly though through goal of getting huge numbers into university. This goal had more to do with creating a fake reduction in youth unemployment, than any meaningful goal of improving the individuals or the country.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2017, 12:56:36 pm »
Apprenticeships and "polytechnics" are unfashionable, and that is highly regrettable. "Merging" unis and polys was a bad mistake in my opinion. Vive la difference!
If you are going to use wording like that in a global forum it needs boldly prefaced with "UK", as polytechnic means very different things in different countries. Some of the highest tier colleges are called polytechnics in some countries, while in the UK it was a term for colleges somewhere between the technical colleges (craft schools) and the universities.

That's a fair point, but it was clearly discussing someone's experience in the UK.

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It is most unfortunate that they have gone. The UK has almost wiped out its tertiary education for craft and technician level work, persuing a poorly though through goal of getting huge numbers into university. This goal had more to do with creating a fake reduction in youth unemployment, than any meaningful goal of improving the individuals or the country.

I don't quite agree with that. In my view it was reducing youth unemployment plus academic snobbery, and that appears a sufficient explanation.

Since there is still a vast difference between different UK universities and courses, it isn't clear to me how much the technician level work has been removed. I do dislike any merging of doctors with nurses, since they have complementary skills. I do dislike the pushing everybody to be a doctor - since being a paramedic or nurse suits some people better.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2017, 01:04:05 pm »
unfortunately in the UK university and education have become both political and private profit making tools. One government indeed sought to hide the unemployment figures by getting everyone into university. Education in the UK has long been a class war tool as is much evident in the UK sitcom "yes minister" where the senior civil servant looks down on his own minister based on the universities they attended and jokes (that are probably closer the truth than admitted to) about the quality of roads leading to certain parts of the country based on which part of the country high ranking civil servants went to university in.

I was just the other day told of a "college" where the rich can stuff their not so clever kids for £40K per year and then obtain automatic entry to top universities. This is I am afraid what drives inverse snobbery and a lack of respect for degrees by those who don't understand that there are degrees and degrees. but it should not be like that, that a degree from one place is worth more than another. but it is like that and those that have a reputation for good degrees no doubt guard it  and select their students by having high fees.

Despite the Victorian times being long over we still have in the UK a strong class partitioning that albeit falling apart at the bottom is still strong in higher places, and cost of admission to a university that in turn guarantees admission to certain jobs and incomes is a well cherished system by some. You then up in situations with people in high places who have very little practical knowledge or experience because at a certain level jobs are dished out in the "old boys network".

What is left from this tattered mess is many "universities" having to self fund by attracting students that will go to the university that will "get them by" so standards have fallen and the administering body of those standards is a private company that makes a fee for every certificate given out and does not really care for the quality of the material.

There have been arguments about school grading systems and grade inflation but basically what i have described above is simply grade inflation but in an environment where it is "too polite to talk of grades". There was a massive row when they wanted to change the marking system half way through the year as it meant some school students would be say 1/2 a grade worse off because it's all about the numbers scored in a rigid system that must be played and it's no surprise children emerge from school and university for that matter with no ability for critical/analytical thinking because all their life they have been taught to pass the test instead of solve a problem.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #90 on: December 03, 2017, 01:37:38 pm »
Quote
It is most unfortunate that they have gone. The UK has almost wiped out its tertiary education for craft and technician level work, persuing a poorly though through goal of getting huge numbers into university. This goal had more to do with creating a fake reduction in youth unemployment, than any meaningful goal of improving the individuals or the country.

I don't quite agree with that. In my view it was reducing youth unemployment plus academic snobbery, and that appears a sufficient explanation.
I'm not sure academic snobbery is quite the right angle. The big deal to me was that in the 80s, when Japan was doing really well, there was a mantra in the UK that Japan put 18% of its youth through university while the UK only put a few percent through university. This totally ignored what the word university might mean in those countries. It appears Japan put about 18% of its youth through some kind of tertiary education. The UK put about 15% of its youth through some kind of tertiary education, when you include all the day release courses and other non-full time tertiary education. So, the UK wasn't doing as well for its youth, but it wasn't that far away from Japan. The response to the mantra was to turn most of the colleges in the UK into universities. There are now >350 degree awarding places in the UK, which is a pretty big number for a country of <60M people. It leads them to market themselves globally on a growing scale, because they can't maintain good academic standards simply by recruiting more students from UK schools. They would have to accept people with poorer grades in their A levels to do that. You can accept students with better grades if your pool of potential students is expanded. The downside is you can't fail too many people who are paying you lots of money for their courses. Its hard to have solid academic standards when you've become an industry with the motivations that implies.
Since there is still a vast difference between different UK universities and courses, it isn't clear to me how much the technician level work has been removed. I do dislike any merging of doctors with nurses, since they have complementary skills. I do dislike the pushing everybody to be a doctor - since being a paramedic or nurse suits some people better.
I don't understand the use of "still" here. In the 70s there wasn't a massive difference between places tagged university. There was a robust system to prevent the weaker universities awarding watered down degrees. Sure Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, Imperial College, and a few others were more prestigious than the remainder. However, people first asked if you had a 1st or 2nd, and then they asked where you studied. These days the first question is where you studied, and a degree from many places seems barely worth the paper its printed on.

From what I have seen the choices for learning basic craft skills, like construction, have massively contracted. So many of the well run technical colleges that used to run solid craft courses have become universities. Universities don't do craft skills. I don't think anyone is trying to merge doctors with nurses. The only change I've seen is that nurses still study what they always studied, but at the end their academic qualification is now termed a degree.

The key bad result from the current system is the government can't afford to put so many people through 3 or 4 year full time courses, so the cost has been pushed onto students or their families at a time when UK incomes are falling. When 2 or 3% of the people with the best academic results from school, plus a similar number of possibly less able people with plenty of money, went to university in the UK the government could afford the bill. Everyone had their tuition paid, and students from poorer families were given living expenses. People generally walked away from their education without debt, which is a critically important thing for a healthy society.

When I was a kid (1960s) the centre of London was littered with college age backpackers in the summer. I believe most major capitals were the same. Now you don't see many backpackers. People start at university already thinking about how they are going to pay their education debt back. They aren't thinking in broader terms. They aren't trying to do original things. They lack the financial flexibility to be innovative. People are reporting more and more that innovation is slowing. What could possibly be the cause?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 01:59:59 pm by coppice »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2017, 01:53:17 pm »
Unfortunately in the Uk we all expect our free services while admiring those that dodge tax and saying, well if i had that sort of money I'd do the same. As a country on the one hand government is wanting to spend less while collecting less tax, we are being forced down the road of privatization in everything, don't like paying taxes? sure we will reduce them but you will no longer have your safety nets or the services that just need providing like education that maybe are not profit making but have been cut off and told to stand on their own two legs and basically left to run like businesses. So when you do have so many universities having to self fund guess how they attract students........
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #92 on: December 03, 2017, 02:18:23 pm »
There are now >350 degree awarding places in the UK, which is a pretty big number for a country of <60M people. It leads them to market themselves globally on a growing scale, because they can't maintain good academic standards simply by recruiting more students from UK schools. They would have to accept people with poorer grades in their A levels to do that. You can accept students with better grades if your pool of potential students is expanded. The downside is you can't fail too many people who are paying you lots of money for their courses. Its hard to have solid academic standards when you've become an industry with the motivations that implies.

There's always been the motivation to award higher grades; that's why the "levelling" you mention below existed. Introducing money does highlight and exacerbate the problem.

Brexit is going to be  a crunch point for overseas students; currently many of their fees are paid for by the (European) governments.

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Since there is still a vast difference between different UK universities and courses, it isn't clear to me how much the technician level work has been removed. I do dislike any merging of doctors with nurses, since they have complementary skills. I do dislike the pushing everybody to be a doctor - since being a paramedic or nurse suits some people better.
I don't understand the use of "still" here. In the 70s there wasn't a massive difference between places tagged university. There was a robust system to prevent the weaker universities awarding watered down degrees. Sure Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, Imperial College, and a few others were more prestigious than the remainder. However, people first asked if you had a 1st or 2nd, and then they asked where you studied. These days the first question is where you studied, and a degree from many places seems barely worth the paper its printed on.

There was a significant difference between unis and courses in the 70s, speaking as someone that was actively involved then. There some were electronics courses that I profoundly disagreed with even then, e.g. having to choose telecoms vs something else before applying!

Nowadays the generic question is "Russell group or other", modulated by specific cases and knowledge, e.g. UWE for robotics and aeronautical.

Quote
The key bad result from the current system is the government can't afford to put so many people through 3 or 4 year full time courses, so the cost has been pushed onto students or their families at a time when UK incomes are falling. When 2 or 3% of the people with the best academic results from school, plus a similar number of possibly less able people with plenty of money, went to university in the UK the government could afford the bill. Everyone had their tuition paid, and students from poorer families were given living expenses. People generally walked away from their education without debt, which is a critically important thing for a healthy society.

When I was a kid (1960s) the centre of London was littered with college age backpackers in the summer. I believe most major capitals were the same. Now you don't see many backpackers. People start at university already thinking about how they are going to pay their education debt back. They aren't thinking in broader terms. They aren't trying to do original things. They lack the financial flexibility to be innovative. People are reporting more and more that innovation is slowing. What could possibly be the cause?

I thought a silver lining to introducing fees would be that people would consider the usefulness of a specific qualification before starting. It seems many people aren't that foresighted, and have been taken in by the glossy advertising. Curiously foreign students seem more clued up, if you believe some of the statements about the proportion of people on STEM degrees.

As for backpacking, I disagree. I backpacked around S India with my daughter when she was 14-16, she self-financed herself around Australia for 6 months between school and uni, and today is <10km from Ankor Wat :) My feet are itching.
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Offline coppice

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #93 on: December 03, 2017, 03:00:31 pm »
Brexit is going to be  a crunch point for overseas students; currently many of their fees are paid for by the (European) governments.
UK universities have been stepping up their marketing in Asia for a long time. They have also been expanding collaboration with Asian universities, or setting up campuses in Asia (e.g the Nottingham University campus in China). It feels like they are stepping this up, and brexit might be the reason.
There was a significant difference between unis and courses in the 70s, speaking as someone that was actively involved then. There some were electronics courses that I profoundly disagreed with even then, e.g. having to choose telecoms vs something else before applying!
It was much more common in the 70s for courses to only narrow at the end of the first year. For example, we only had to choose between electrical and electronic engineering at the end of the first year, and only at the end of the second year did we really start to narrow down to specific areas, like digital or comms. When our daughter was looking for biology degree courses 3 years ago I was really puzzled by their titles. At 18 she knew she wanted to study biology. She also knew she was interested in biology at the microscopic rather than macroscopic level. She also knew that genetics and neuroscience really interested her. That's a more focussed view of interests than most 18 year olds have, yet even that wasn't focussed enough to select between the available course options. One university had 3 subtly differently worded course titles in the area of neuroscience, and the blurb explaining them gave us little idea what would really be different in their focus.
Nowadays the generic question is "Russell group or other", modulated by specific cases and knowledge, e.g. UWE for robotics and aeronautical.
The better education agents in Asia tend to advise potential students that if a college isn't in the Russell Group they should question whether its worth the cost of studying in the UK. Most of the agents are happy to place anyone anywhere for a buck.
I thought a silver lining to introducing fees would be that people would consider the usefulness of a specific qualification before starting. It seems many people aren't that foresighted, and have been taken in by the glossy advertising. Curiously foreign students seem more clued up, if you believe some of the statements about the proportion of people on STEM degrees.
In an age when ads for clerical jobs ask for a degree, it becomes a baseline that even people of clerical job ability levels feel the need to have. The content of the course may be as irrelevant to the student as it is to performing the job on offer. People travelling to the UK to study probably have loftier expectations of what they might get out it, even if its just a chance to improve their English. Good English, studied in the UK, can still be a very marketable ability in many parts of the world.
As for backpacking, I disagree. I backpacked around S India with my daughter when she was 14-16, she self-financed herself around Australia for 6 months between school and uni, and today is <10km from Ankor Wat :) My feet are itching.
That sounds like a rather different class of backpacking than I was referring to. If you travelled around southern India more than 10 or 15 years ago, you might find it interesting to go there today. So much has changed. On the other hand, if you went there recently, you've missed out.  :)
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #94 on: December 03, 2017, 03:06:55 pm »
For some reason the idea of studying in the UK hold some charm for people around the world who think we are still ruled by queen victoria........ people easily forget how outdated the view of the ignorant in other countries is of the UK.

The titles and blurbs about my course make no sense. "analytical methods for engineers" turned out to be A level maths, I thought it would about measurements and tolerances etc. The modules have a video that is supposed to enthuse you and a guy on them talking about physics like it's a fashionable item of clothing, it's pathetic how commercialist it all is.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 03:10:59 pm by Simon »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2017, 03:23:12 pm »
There was a significant difference between unis and courses in the 70s, speaking as someone that was actively involved then. There some were electronics courses that I profoundly disagreed with even then, e.g. having to choose telecoms vs something else before applying!
It was much more common in the 70s for courses to only narrow at the end of the first year. For example, we only had to choose between electrical and electronic engineering at the end of the first year, and only at the end of the second year did we really start to narrow down to specific areas, like digital or comms. When our daughter was looking for biology degree courses 3 years ago I was really puzzled by their titles. At 18 she knew she wanted to study biology. She also knew she was interested in biology at the microscopic rather than macroscopic level. She also knew that genetics and neuroscience really interested her. That's a more focussed view of interests than most 18 year olds have, yet even that wasn't focussed enough to select between the available course options. One university had 3 subtly differently worded course titles in the area of neuroscience, and the blurb explaining them gave us little idea what would really be different in their focus.

Good for her (and you!). I chose a course (Southampton University) that gave a good and detailed curriculum in the prospectus. That meant I could see it was not only wide enough but also covered topics I knew I ought to know such as Fourier Transforms.

There was minor specialisation in the 2nd year, and significant in the final year.

If I was starting again, I would probably choose life sciences - for the same reasons I chose electronics+computing.

Quote
Good English, studied in the UK, can still be a very marketable ability in many parts of the world.

So it seems. I suppose it is might be summed up as "if all else fails, try TEFL as a career". No doubt that is far too patronising and too cynical.

Quote
As for backpacking, I disagree. I backpacked around S India with my daughter when she was 14-16, she self-financed herself around Australia for 6 months between school and uni, and today is <10km from Ankor Wat :) My feet are itching.
That sounds like a rather different class of backpacking than I was referring to. If you travelled around southern India more than 10 or 15 years ago, you might find it interesting to go there today. So much has changed. On the other hand, if you went there recently, you've missed out.  :)

I first went in 1981, including a 48hr train journey from Trivandrum to Bombay where I was listed as "Sri tggzzz" on a sign glued to the outside of the train. I also saw real literal red tape in Bombay VT.

When we went, she was able to horrify her schoolfriends by telling them that we landed, ate, caught an overnight train, got off at 04:30 and walked to find a hotel room to crash. Gave her a certain independence and self-confidence that I've "regretted" ever since ;}

We last went ~10years ago (gulp). What's changed?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline coppice

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #96 on: December 03, 2017, 03:24:09 pm »
For some reason the idea of studying in the UK hold some charm for people around the world who think we are still ruled by queen victoria........ people easily forget how outdated the view of the ignorant in other countries is of the UK.
Most foreigners are quite pragmatic about why they study in the UK. Huge numbers of people want an education in English, for obvious reasons. They prefer that be in an English speaking country, as they expect better English standards there. Many people were blocked from getting a US student visa after 9/11, and went to the UK instead. The US still hasn't fully relaxed the weird restrictions they put in place at that time (why were so many Chinese people suddenly being denied a visa to study in the US after middle eastern muslims attacked the US?). If they do, there will probably be less people choosing the UK, and the UK will need to compete on value for money.
The titles and blurbs about my course make no sense. "analytical methods for engineers" turned out to be A level maths, I thought it would about measurements and tolerances etc.
I would expect a course called "analytical methods for engineers" to be applied maths, and be puzzled if it strayed far from that.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #97 on: December 03, 2017, 03:28:08 pm »
That sounds like a rather different class of backpacking than I was referring to. If you travelled around southern India more than 10 or 15 years ago, you might find it interesting to go there today. So much has changed. On the other hand, if you went there recently, you've missed out.  :)

I first went in 1981, including a 48hr train journey from Trivandrum to Bombay where I was listed as "Sri tggzzz" on a sign glued to the outside of the train. I also saw real literal red tape in Bombay VT.

When we went, she was able to horrify her schoolfriends by telling them that we landed, ate, caught an overnight train, got off at 04:30 and walked to find a hotel room to crash. Gave her a certain independence and self-confidence that I've "regretted" ever since ;}

We last went ~10years ago (gulp). What's changed?
There are lots of roads (ones with a surface other than mud), airports, hotels, etc. that are quite recent additions. Travelling south of Bangalore is a trvial exercise now. Its not an adventure any more.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #98 on: December 03, 2017, 03:31:46 pm »

I would expect a course called "analytical methods for engineers" to be applied maths, and be puzzled if it strayed far from that.

Even the blurb did not clearly mention maths, they managed to write a few lines without actually saying what the course contents was.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #99 on: December 03, 2017, 04:28:36 pm »
Indian universities are hoping to pick up a lot of students from Western countries as a benefit from globalization. State provided subsidies (which are supposed to be temporary, serving as a bridge of sorts) that might not take a student very far in a Western country might be adequate, at least at first, to pay for an engineering education in an Indian university. One big plus is that classes are likely given in English. This could mean that students could get free tuition at Indian schools instead of ending up hugely in debt.

In a hypothetical economic downturn caused by the job losses caused by globalization, they could then find themselves priced out of their local job markets by debts just as average wages were falling, unable to take those jobs. Lacking the means to work at lower wages because of heir huge debts, they would likely end up defaulting on their loans en masse. This is likely a big concern that getting one's education overseas might prevent.

Also getting an education overseas would be a good way of seeing the world through a different perspective, although its debatable if it is a more desirable or realistic one as some would argue. (The alternative to standrds falling in developed countries is stadards rising in developing countries) My question is, are these other schools good enough to be considered the equals of other better known schools in the developed countries, (as they are required to be by WTO GATS Article 1:4 for the purposes of awarding subcontracting contracts to foreign services firms, which hope to take up the great many jobs which will must be privatized and put up for international bidding due to he same rules, in the quasi-public and public sectors). Also, schools in some developing countries have a reputation for high levels of corruption. Is this true?


The potential windfalls they might see accrue from the opening of the Western subsidized services markets to their providers of various services is why India is pushing hard that longstanding rules allegedly requiring public benefits paid in committed service sectors be portable to commercial vendors when commercial interests are involved in a service sector at any level, be enforced by the WTO, (via a new Trade Facilitation Agreement or "TFS" on services)

The 22 year old WTO rules requiring minimally trade restrictive policies that applies to subsidized services does not apply to free services, or services paid completely out of pocket. So students or patients who spend their own money, would not have any restrictions on where or how their money was spent. Countries (for example, primary health care in Canada) that have kept a service sector completely noncommercial could keep their free services under that agreement also, at least in theory. (although their exemptions are so narrow it may be difficult in practice)

That sounds like a rather different class of backpacking than I was referring to. If you travelled around southern India more than 10 or 15 years ago, you might find it interesting to go there today. So much has changed. On the other hand, if you went there recently, you've missed out.  :)

I first went in 1981, including a 48hr train journey from Trivandrum to Bombay where I was listed as "Sri tggzzz" on a sign glued to the outside of the train. I also saw real literal red tape in Bombay VT.

When we went, she was able to horrify her schoolfriends by telling them that we landed, ate, caught an overnight train, got off at 04:30 and walked to find a hotel room to crash. Gave her a certain independence and self-confidence that I've "regretted" ever since ;}

We last went ~10years ago (gulp). What's changed?
There are lots of roads (ones with a surface other than mud), airports, hotels, etc. that are quite recent additions. Travelling south of Bangalore is a trvial exercise now. Its not an adventure any more.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 05:09:03 pm by cdev »
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