Author Topic: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......  (Read 63551 times)

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Offline Armin_Balija

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #175 on: July 05, 2011, 04:34:03 pm »
the problem is classical arabic, no one can really understand it

It's pretty much unchanged since the qur'an was spoken. That's not really the problem.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #176 on: July 05, 2011, 04:37:52 pm »
BTW, even as we talk, my opinion of you still hold. You are a very smart and talented man. ;)

I respect you too, and I highly value your opinion, and this is why we had this dialog today.  ;)



 

Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #177 on: July 05, 2011, 05:04:04 pm »
We're moving to the end of this thread, I think (or hope).
It has been quite hard to me, to read and write something of my thought.

I've felt a little bit under attack (I'm speaking about prejudice here), when I was the only participant to say that science and religion can go together. I've read quite hard things, religion to be banned, if it was for someone, for example. This last demonstrates to me that, even if religion would disappear from earth, the problems would not be less than today. Atheists will be able to do the same bad things that religious people have done over the history.
It's the mankind which is the same to itself, and has from one side the will to do good things, but is tempted to the bad (from a moral point of view, which can be shared among theist and atheists).

All that we can see and perceive is the result of evolution, I don't deny this. It still doesn't make me less sure that something had to trigger that glorious Big Bang. One can always imagine a cause for the cause... Recursive. Infinite is one of the adjectives for God.
Again, don't take this as a formal demonstration for the existence of God, but just let us not be just stupid, even if we believe there has been (at the infinite back in the timebase) a first cause for all. After all, that's not such a strange thesis.

Just thinking from a moral point of view, there are principles that have to remain true (even for the survival of our species moral rules are needed, as already said). I feel that the existence of a border line in the moral field is a thing that atheist can accept too, but you could correct me. If this is true, just think the holy books contain, physically written by men, these principles. Many said the bible is incorrect, because it describes a distorted history and reality. It would be like reading a verse book and trying to guess math or electronics. Although some historical elements have been proved to be true, the book was not written for that. Ignoring this and judging on it is a great mistake, IMO, which has been made widely, but I'm always surprised is still happening nowadays, when all of us have access to so much knowledge. Surprised just like the atheists are to see so many people still believing in some more than what eyes or instruments can ever reveal.
One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man. - Elbert Hubbard
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #178 on: July 05, 2011, 05:05:14 pm »
No because not everyone will just download books, people will still buy them. I have a both a real and a virtual copy of The Art of Electronics and will probably buy the third edition too.

But without copyright people will buy a copy of the book from whoever can print it the cheapest and the author still gets nothing and would not have bothered writing it in the first place.
Where did I say copyright should be abolished? I just said I don't see who downloading a book rather than buying it is any worse for the author than borrowing it from the library or getting it from a second hand shop.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3968.msg53121#msg53121

My God, it supposed that he made you by his own image
If God created humankind in his own image then that makes God imperfect and no better than anyone else. In reality, it's the other way round.



Today, around here, the soft cushion is caring for nothing, "panem et circenses" is the way to go, until money will finish. Making choices is the difficult thing, so people don't care to believe or not. I largely prefer someone who says to be an atheist, than one saying he's a Catholic and doesn't even know what this means.

For once, I agree with you.

What it means to be a Catholic (or any christian I believe) is generally considered to be found in the Nicene Creed
Here is nice summary of what it says:

We believe in one God.
We believe God made everything.
We believe a virgin gave birth.
We believe Jesus suffered, was crucified, died, and was buried.
We believe Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days.
We believe Jesus ascended into Heaven where he sits at the right hand of God.
We believe Jesus will physically return to judge the living and the dead.
We believe in one Church.
We believe in baptism.
We believe in the forgiveness of "sins"
We believe in the resurrection of the dead.
We believe in everlasting judgement and everlasting life.

If you don't truly believe in all those things, then you are just picking and choosing and might as well go start your own religion and fall into the ever spillaraling trap of having no reliable "holy book" or "word of god", and hence you are just making shit up. (The bible is course is mostly made up, but lets not go there...)
And if you you do believe in all that stuff, then you have to take all the other crap in the bible as truth too. All the real nasty horrible shit in the original edition, and the silly stuff like the talking snake et.al

Dave.
I don't think it's that simple. The bible is open to interpretation, like any other book. Religion is personal to the follower. I doubt every Catholic believes in exactly the same god. I think it's most likely that everyone has their own perception of what god is or is not.
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #179 on: July 05, 2011, 05:40:22 pm »
I've felt a little bit under attack (I'm speaking about prejudice here), when I was the only participant to say that science and religion can go together. I've read quite hard things, religion to be banned, if it was for someone, for example.

That would be me. I don't mean it that way, banning things is not an option, everyone can have their own opinion. I just hope in naturally disappears over time.

Anyway, I would ban religion from school, science, tax breaks, state and politics.

Also, religion and science might go together in some cases. For example, the modern christianity view with evolution is kind of ok. Still pretty bad but better then the new earth crap. I simply don't understand scientists, especially biologists, that do not believe in evolution. It's the single most important thing in that field. I would not give a biology-related diploma to a person that doesn't accept evolution.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #180 on: July 05, 2011, 05:51:45 pm »
Governments have tried banning religion and it didn't work - look at how many Christians there are in Russia today.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #181 on: July 05, 2011, 07:10:59 pm »
even if in Islam regulation, penalty for a convert is death
Guess why ... people converting away from religion is bad so you have to scare them.
your imagination tells you? can you prove it mathematically? i have reason, but i'd rather not to discuss it here, there will be pointless.

Up until now I was hoping this thread could have a meaningful discussion, but both Mechatrommer and Kiriakos are claiming everything that supports their idea as a miracle, and everything that doesn't is ignored.
as whats normally happening nowadays, the convict is convicted for some crime, where infact the convicter is actually the original criminal tried to conseal everything and deviates people eyes from the real truth. i'm not saying you ndictu is a criminal, i'm just giving example of the "moral lifestyle of today", you probably the effect of it (originally from the 1st cause) I'm not the one who started discussion about God (see reply #31 by Alex) which you defended so badly and applaused it as "contentfull". But when thing goes against your so called "Contentfull Godless Ideology" which you tried to implicitly deny it as an "ideology" by saying it is us who tried to defend our "Contentless Ideology of God". You dont say aethism is a religion? well from my point of view you are wrong! "Aethism" IS a religion, they/you just want to deny/deviate it. In fact, books like "God Delusion" is written due to pissed off with christian religion and the writer want to make another side/group, a religious group, a religion without a God, a religion that believe human mind is the origin. (good example: buddhism?)

The fact is, i'm pityfull to the guy named George Carlin. He maybe had a bad experience in life, finacial collapse, disease etc. and then he lost track on faith, the what is "cause and effect", the consequences etc that He blame God for it, tried to act superior by saying which has the same semantic as "We Dont Need God to Live!". He pityfully forgot, how could it be logical that he expect he'll get all the good when he did something wrong. You got financial problem? its you dont work hard enough. You got disease? its you who dont practice safe/healthy way, or even forbid/deny God's Limit by doing free sex (unsafe way if you like), sodomy etc which been accepted as moral behaviour. You blame God who sent Aids into this world, NO! its not the God who sent it, its occured by "natural selection"! Aids has always been there, somewhere from eternity! or evolution whatever, NOT God! He asked how could God loves us when He send us to Hell, it is he... who lost the clue, that is sent to hell, because of what (sin) he did on earth! the same to other sinners that will become the fuel of hell, together with him, if he dont appeal to God and admitting what he did is wrong, before his own armageddon (death). He lost God's love, who gave him guide of what should or not be done for his own soul'ly and bodily benefit, that he dont have an ant of clue about the reason why God ask him to do this and that and claimed it as such a ridiculous (unexplained) thing! There is no hard math and science prove on Him (his video), but yet he got the applause from the so called "intelligent people"! Amazing!

Only one thing the most crappiest thing happening on earth in my view. is that you did Sin, you did wrong, but in the end, you go to the same path as other people who sacrifice themselves to the goodness. The most ridiculuos thing that people tried to deviate/conceal. As i gave the example of "boss and workers", you did good you get promoted, you did bad you got fired! (fire?) such a simple (cause and effect/consequence) analogy is incomprehensible to many pitiful souls. And of course! the one who get fired will blame the boss and say "O we dont need the fucking boss!". George Carlin expect he can do whatever he want and then go to heaven, luxurious in money, wealth etc! if not, he will WHINE and deny God! what a kind of dickhead!

If you hate science so much why do you use it every day? Go live the way people in bible times did.
and again, you've lost in time and space, the same to others. Any sane religious people will not deny science. Further we embraced science (and math) as the creation of God, its an instrument provided to human so we can improve our living, its the love of God. but again, there will be no point to discuss to such an arrogant people who claim it as their invention, refined toward perfection, L.O.L!

Yes, I've done my best to understand and learn from arab scholars as much as possible because I, myself, cannot read or understand arabic. I know that you cannot begin to understand the qur'an unless you know arabic. However, in my opinion, if Allah was all merciful he would've given us the qur'an with a universal language or the ability for anyone to understand. The biggest problem is the miracle lay in the language, not the book.
Arabic language is choosen for some reason. as you said (one proof given), arabic is the most stable language, minimally changed during centuries. You want to give excuse you dont know arabic? i dont blame for your effort. I dont know Arab, but i understand my holy book through translation effort from the past believers. Universal language? what is? and again what do you expect? we can communicate through thought? we were once one language (Adam language), it is us who got divided and create our own language (or religion?), you blame God for that? oh i forgot, you dont have anybody to blame to... there is No God! :D

I for one, was born with a health problem that I would rather not get into that will cut my life short, I don't see this as merciful. It has only brought pain to me, I don't see how a merciful God could make someone sick.
must be for some reason.one way or another.

and again... there's no personal feeling right? you with your opinion. me with mine, hope we can still friend ;) for the sake of science, math and technology :P
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 07:53:58 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #182 on: July 05, 2011, 07:49:48 pm »
and again... there's no personal feeling right? you with your opinion. me with mine, hope we can still friend ;) for the sake of science, math and technology :P

Of course not, I hope you didn't take anything I said personally. Outside of this thread every argument is gone :)

I think I'm going to leave this thread, it's already 12 pages longer than it should be...
 

Offline Flavour Flave

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #183 on: July 05, 2011, 08:51:15 pm »
After reading this thread I find peoples general ignorance of Islam is very disconcerting. I recommend that you do a bit of research especially into Muhammed's life and his actions.
 Oh yeah just type into google "abrogation koran"
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #184 on: July 05, 2011, 09:02:58 pm »
This not the show of  " Oprah Live in Chicago " ..   ;)

And there is no need every one to agree with all the others.
And so anyone can ban what ever he likes , no hard feelings.  :)
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #185 on: July 05, 2011, 09:16:19 pm »
After reading this thread I find peoples general ignorance of Islam is very disconcerting. I recommend that you do a bit of research especially into Muhammed's life and his actions.
 Oh yeah just type into google "abrogation koran"

I love to have  ignorance of Islam, if Greeks and Arabs are good friends,
it is because they are smart and positive thinking people !!
And I do not care if they call me as disbeliever " UNANI ", instead of  " Hellina",
or at list as Greek.

Keep the Koran for your self , as long it preaches: " death to the disbelievers "
We do not need such books.

If we need to read something so to freak out, we would read the Count Dracula ..  :)

 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 09:18:07 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline Armin_Balija

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #186 on: July 05, 2011, 09:23:04 pm »
I think you mis-understood me.

I grew up in a semi-strict Islamic household so I actually don't understand what you were trying to say by your previous post. I haven't really bothered to wade through 11+ pages of arguing to see anything anti-islamic.

I'm not anti-islamic. I'm not anti-christian. I just don't believe in any of it. I don't believe it should be around for the sake of humanity but I'm not going to go on a crusade against it. (lol crusade)
 

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #187 on: July 05, 2011, 09:26:59 pm »
It is not as bad as I thought, although it has potential.

 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #188 on: July 05, 2011, 09:31:30 pm »
It is not as bad as I thought, although it has potential.



Hmm, we are just 200 posts from top 5, we can do it!  ;D
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #189 on: July 05, 2011, 09:36:46 pm »
and let me add some to clear the misconception. the religion (the true teaching) will not condone immoral act such as rape, corruption, forbidding "safe" sex (marriage), lust of power. anybody! and i mean anybody that doing nasty thing, is by all mean has deviated from the true teaching. they are doing it for their own personal preferences. a pope that saw "theory of evolution" as threat because they afraid of lossing power in church, or church become extinct. the same to any other so called "religious" people, be it islam, christian, jew or whatever. lust of power is not promoted in any "religious" lesson, and is a personal thing, the devil thing inside. and we believe God knows the sinner no matter how hard they try to conceal?

human police/judge/law? how can they know? and able to bring all the unjust into justice? no, its been proven incapable! human law will not stop criminal, and thats the flaw in aethism argument, they dont admit any human made are inherently imperfect. funny they claimed the other way around. they claimed human is not perfect, but yet capable of doing perfect thing ??? as long as human made law is not in accordance with the true religion (which is clearly deviated in today's law) there will be always massacre, you can discuss what happened in Greece, America, Pakistan, Arab country all you like, who caused it whats the origin. The origin/answer is simple, the monetary and debt system is not in accordance with the Law of Religion, it is man-made and been like that for so many years. they made it in the name of religion which is NOT, thats why religion is to be blamed, because of this small group of "Satanic mind" people. the result is economy collapse, wars and lust of power.

Its been proven in Islamic Age where nobody's poor we have to give the money to help to, different religions live in harmony, the perfection of God's Law exemplify that the neighbooring countries embraced it, enlarging the empire (which mistakenly interpreted by today's generation as bloodsheds). and then comes jealousy from another religion, they thought its a threat to their own religion/empire, and then came propaganda in the name of religion. So Islamic Age collapsed as we see today. and man-made law rules, in the name of religion. so Aethism emerged, using science as their backing. A new war has begun between "Godess" and "Godless" religion! Guess who started it? a pope that see "evolution" as a threat? and try to ban aethism? or "Evolutioner" such as George Carlin who claimed that there is no God? which is a real absolute threat to the former!

And another thing to be clear, there is no jew religion, there is no christian, there is no islam religion. There is only One God! God's Religion, God's Rule, God's Way of Living. Religion is actually "The Way of Living" and "Appreciation of the Maker" and His Domain! which later He will pay in the next ressurection in another dimension, nothing more nothing less. The difference in Names ie Jew, Christian, Islam, Aethism has made human kind got separated. Just as stated/predicted in the "Holy Book", there is no proof for that, until it actually happen, which is happened!

Its just happened in His last Book of Holy (4th edition which named Quran) that the religion is Named as Islam, and He did challenge human kind to make even a single verse thats of similar quality as the Quran, or if you want to argue the subjectiveness of the meaning "quality", He did challenge if someone can alter the Holy Book's content! He did challenge if man can do a better law than Him. I'm looking forward to the Man-Made 5th Edition of Holy Book! be it the Holy Book of Aethism! and see how it can manage/govern human kind in order.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Flavour Flave

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #190 on: July 05, 2011, 09:49:54 pm »
I think you mis-understood me.

I grew up in a semi-strict Islamic household so I actually don't understand what you were trying to say by your previous post. I haven't really bothered to wade through 11+ pages of arguing to see anything anti-islamic.

I'm not anti-islamic. I'm not anti-christian. I just don't believe in any of it. I don't believe it should be around for the sake of humanity but I'm not going to go on a crusade against it. (lol crusade)

Perfect example of Taqiyyah above.

Well I just wrote asking people to learn about abrogation in the koran and you immediately you say I am anti-islamic. Is that because you don't want people to understand abrogation in the koran and what it means in the context of Islam and the West?



« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 09:57:49 pm by rico1974 »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #191 on: July 05, 2011, 10:11:46 pm »
he did not say you an "anti islam" rico. we are scientist :P here, we need to translate the word by its syntactic and semantic, not by feeling. my 2cnts.
edit: i can see some of the post is being deleted. so it will be hard to trace (debug?) and hence my statement above could be wrong.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 10:16:39 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Armin_Balija

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #192 on: July 05, 2011, 10:12:15 pm »
I think you mis-understood me.

I grew up in a semi-strict Islamic household so I actually don't understand what you were trying to say by your previous post. I haven't really bothered to wade through 11+ pages of arguing to see anything anti-islamic.

I'm not anti-islamic. I'm not anti-christian. I just don't believe in any of it. I don't believe it should be around for the sake of humanity but I'm not going to go on a crusade against it. (lol crusade)

Perfect example of Taqiyyah above.

Well I just wrote asking people to learn about abrogation in the koran and you immediately you say I am anti-islamic. Is that because you don't want people to understand abrogation in the koran and what it means in the context of Islam and the West?

I think you misunderstood my post, friend.
 

Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #193 on: July 05, 2011, 11:33:31 pm »
I've felt a little bit under attack (I'm speaking about prejudice here), when I was the only participant to say that science and religion can go together. I've read quite hard things, religion to be banned, if it was for someone, for example.

That would be me. I don't mean it that way, banning things is not an option, everyone can have their own opinion. I just hope in naturally disappears over time.

Anyway, I would ban religion from school, science, tax breaks, state and politics.

Also, religion and science might go together in some cases. For example, the modern christianity view with evolution is kind of ok. Still pretty bad but better then the new earth crap. I simply don't understand scientists, especially biologists, that do not believe in evolution. It's the single most important thing in that field. I would not give a biology-related diploma to a person that doesn't accept evolution.

I accept your explanation, perhaps I didn't point it out immediately because of my feeling (and because there were too many posts to read, understand and try to reply!). When people was insisting about religion having obscured knowledge, brainwashed people and caused wars, I found it a contraddiction that atheists' opinion was to ban religion.

Evolutionism is a different story, again the holy books aren't scientific ones. Still some people (hopefully not judged as stupid) think they are worth, and good willing atheists can find most of their good moral principles in them, too.
One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man. - Elbert Hubbard
 

Offline Hypernova

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #194 on: July 06, 2011, 01:33:59 am »
human police/judge/law? how can they know? and able to bring all the unjust into justice? no, its been proven incapable! human law will not stop criminal, and thats the flaw in aethism argument, they dont admit any human made are inherently imperfect. funny they claimed the other way around. they claimed human is not perfect, but yet capable of doing perfect thing ???

You just tried to use the "but humans still can't xxx" augments again which is invalid, our systems are not fixed and improves all the time. We may never reach 100% and we shouldn't as than would be a disaster, but any atheist worth his salt will admit that.

Religion is just social engineering, a way to influence how people think, in the older days it served as a great tool to unite groups of people and promote cooperation. It is handy to implement laws and morals with "as the Lord decrees" and suppress arguments with "don't question your god". However we have advanced past that time, "love thy neighbor" is not dependent on the Ten Commandments so why not just skip the middle man and all it's baggage?

And don't use those cold war atheist states as examples of godless states, they simply replaced Yahweh with "Dear Leader" which is just another religion. And before you repeat it lack of something does not make it the same as that something.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 01:35:40 am by Hypernova »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #195 on: July 06, 2011, 07:03:34 am »
Governments have tried banning religion and it didn't work.

No need to ban it, it's dying in many countries anyway.
Take the Catholic church, there are very few new young recruits coming through. I think the stat for the average age of priests is approaching 60 or something like that.
It's simple, tax the churches like everyone else as they should be, take religion out of politics and public schools completely as it should be, and don't give religion any special "respect" in society.
Do those things, or at least the latter two, and the rest will take care of itself.

It's like that stupid burqa debate going on in Australia. I'm glad the government finally did the right thing and didn't bow down to "respecting" that rubbish.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #196 on: July 06, 2011, 07:20:27 am »
I don't think it's that simple. The bible is open to interpretation, like any other book. Religion is personal to the follower. I doubt every Catholic believes in exactly the same god. I think it's most likely that everyone has their own perception of what god is or is not.

I agree. And in that case they are actually a theist, and should call themselves as such, and therefore should not be part of that organised religion.
By the letter of the law, you are not a catholic if you don't believe the above stuff, it's that simple.
If you have different views, then you should not be associating yourself with that group, as that is truly what they believe, it is not negotiable in their view.

In a way, I have more respect for someone who actually believes that rubbish than someone who doesn't but still aligns themselves with such a group.

Dave.
 

Offline gregariz

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #197 on: July 06, 2011, 08:09:16 am »
By the letter of the law, you are not a catholic if you don't believe the above stuff, it's that simple.

When I was a kid many families still needed to avoid meat on Fridays. Not long before that they were attending mass every day and praying several times a day. In fact you don't need to go back that many centuries to find Catholic rules which parallel many of the types of restrictions you still see in Islamic countries today, regarding dress and behaviour, even to the extent of women wearing head coverings and the discouragement of girls being educated or going to school and being married off young. Of course during their heyday all of these things would send you to 'hell' if you didnt comply. I was even taught mastubating was a mortal sin I would go to hell for. I can't imagine their will be many men in the world going to heaven.

As a kid I was educated in the Catholic School system and even then (not that long ago) they would still openly talk about the need for a 'Fear of God' in order to encourage faith.

I think the reality is that people started getting educated and reasoned that most of these had more to do with maintaining this sense of fear and a full collection box than saving their soul. I guess the church could start kicking people out but then their wouldn't be many Catholics left.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 08:17:49 am by gregariz »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #198 on: July 06, 2011, 11:27:06 am »
well.... someday, my dream is... to build a "nearly" intelligent robot! :P
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #199 on: July 06, 2011, 11:47:16 am »
well.... someday, my dream is... to build a "nearly" intelligent robot! :P

Do not do it, or make it shorter than you, you never know how the wife's respond,
when there is competition.  ;D 
 


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