Author Topic: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......  (Read 63552 times)

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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #200 on: July 06, 2011, 11:58:35 am »
well.... someday, my dream is... to build a "nearly" intelligent robot! :P
Do not do it, or make it shorter than you, you never know how the wife's respond,
when there is competition.  ;D 
i will build it alot more charming than i am allright, except without "that" part :D
and i hope it will not condemn me for denying its "natural desire" :P
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 12:00:36 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #201 on: July 06, 2011, 12:49:03 pm »
well.... someday, my dream is... to build a "nearly" intelligent robot! :P
Do not do it, or make it shorter than you, you never know how the wife's respond,
when there is competition.  ;D 
i will build it alot more charming than i am allright, except without "that" part :D
and i hope it will not condemn me for denying its "natural desire" :P


Wise choice...
One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man. - Elbert Hubbard
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #202 on: July 16, 2011, 04:21:14 pm »
sorry to bring up this controversial thread again. but i just found a file in my HDD lying around, i dont remember where it came from but i'm pretty sure its from internet. read it and thought it might be relevant. So, to my dear Agnostics friends (or even Aethists fellow who want to have something to critic ;) ), if you have free time to kill, some text (pdf below) to study, its from science point of view, not the so called "nonsensical poetry" of religion. Written by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (original in French) translated to English by Alastair D. Pannell, i dont know who they are, maybe someone of you know them. I'm just doing my job (or share?) as been told, to spread the good or bad news so we can differentiate... nothing personal :P Cheers

Regards,
Shafri (from Malaysia with Love)
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Time

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #203 on: July 18, 2011, 02:19:15 pm »
its 173 pages....
-Time
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #204 on: July 18, 2011, 03:20:26 pm »
its 173 pages....

Just like this thread!  :)
 

Offline nessatse

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #205 on: July 18, 2011, 05:15:24 pm »
its 173 pages....

... at least half of which rants about how inaccurate the bible is, the other half on how great the Quran is.  The 'science' part is awfully thin though and rather vague as is usual for these type of documents.    Not that I expected anything more...
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #206 on: July 18, 2011, 06:16:22 pm »
rants about how inaccurate the bible is.......how great the Quran is.

Yes this thread needs some fresh air in it ...

How about Doctor Who &  Daleks ?

Or an schematic to make your own Dalek !!  LOL    ;D

 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 06:18:15 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #207 on: October 06, 2011, 11:02:48 am »
Bump to share a youtube channel with very well made videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/DarkMatter2525

A couple of vids:



 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #208 on: October 06, 2011, 09:28:41 pm »
Greetings EEVBees:

--Let us not forget that in the two hundred years of the Spanish Inquisition as many people were executed as Stalin executed in a summer afternoon in the 30s.

--It seems reasonable to me, to hold atheistic states to the same standards of responsibility as the theocracies. Otherwise you are putting yourself in the "Communism has never really been tried" school.

--To my way of thinking, political movements that want to abolish private property, and confiscate all the guns most resemble the National Socialists and Fascists, and the Communists, all very closely related philosophies. I do not think it is a good idea to give the Government more and more power to use against your enemies, because in the end it will be used against you.

--Please note that to a true atheist, there can be no such thing as love, because it cannot be weighed or measured, and must be accepted on faith. And obviously people cannot have souls. Right and wrong are superstitious concepts and only government can decide what is correct practice.

--When you are walking home at night through a bad part of town and you hear footsteps behind you, I hope for your sake it will not be a bunch of those irrational Christian Youth members, about to bore you with their ridiculous fairy tales.
 
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Offline Kozmyk

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #209 on: October 07, 2011, 01:51:03 am »
--Please note that to a true atheist, there can be no such thing as love, because it cannot be weighed or measured, and must be accepted on faith. And obviously people cannot have souls. Right and wrong are superstitious concepts and only government can decide what is correct practice.
Jeez! Where did you dig that tripe up from?
From what standpoint do you presume to know what constitutes a True Atheist.
Who but an adherent of a faith based belief system would even bother to try to define such a state?

My personal problem with an absolutist atheist stance is the belief that no deity or anything resembling one exists.
Such a belief is irrational as an individual cannot Know or prove a negative.
Logically, in the absence of any evidence, one should allow for the possibility that such an entity may exist, however faint.
An agnostic therefore has a more justifiable stance.

From a rationalist viewpoint human love is a psycho-chemically induced state that is genetically preprogrammed in order to facilitate pair bonding and infant care. This may be extended to family group members or strong friendship bonding.

From an individual subjective point of view it is an emotion that one feels and is best enjoyed rather than analysed.  :)

Koz
Belief system - Transcendental Anarcho Shivite with Taoist tendencies
Politics - Syndicalist

Some people will believe anything. ;-)
 

Online IanB

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #210 on: October 07, 2011, 01:56:21 am »
--Let us not forget that in the two hundred years of the Spanish Inquisition as many people were executed as Stalin executed in a summer afternoon in the 30s.
It's OK to murder a few people, as long as you don't murder too many of them?

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--It seems reasonable to me, to hold atheistic states to the same standards of responsibility as the theocracies. Otherwise you are putting yourself in the "Communism has never really been tried" school.
What relevance does this have to the topic at hand? When you are conducting debate, do not bring in random and extraneous ideas.

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--To my way of thinking, political movements that want to abolish private property, and confiscate all the guns most resemble the National Socialists and Fascists, and the Communists, all very closely related philosophies. I do not think it is a good idea to give the Government more and more power to use against your enemies, because in the end it will be used against you.
Once again, irrelevant. When you are conducting debate, do not invent imaginary opposing views. Address only the views presented.

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--Please note that to a true atheist, there can be no such thing as love, because it cannot be weighed or measured, and must be accepted on faith. And obviously people cannot have souls. Right and wrong are superstitious concepts and only government can decide what is correct practice.
This is obviously false. Love obviously can be weighed and measured. It deserves no response.

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--When you are walking home at night through a bad part of town and you hear footsteps behind you, I hope for your sake it will not be a bunch of those irrational Christian Youth members, about to bore you with their ridiculous fairy tales.
Of course, because "Christians" do not support violence (unless the US military does the violence for them, and it is on the other side of the world where they cannot see it).

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Best Regards
I'll take that under advisement.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 02:01:52 am by IanB »
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Offline SgtRock

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #211 on: October 07, 2011, 03:32:22 am »
Dear IanB:

--I am afraid you mistook my point about the Spanish Inquisition and, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Castro, Guevara, Ho Chi Minh, et. al. My point, (as I think you well know), was not to excuse the depredations of the Spanish Inquisition, but rather to point out that, absolute power in the hands of anyone, atheists included, is likely to lead to genocide. I do not think that you believe I was saying it is alright, if you only kill a few people.

--In view of the statements by Simon that:

"Religion is THE most EVIL thing on this planet. ANY religion !" and ""yep seems to do nothing but create wars instead"

--And the statement by HyperNova:

"And don't use those cold war atheist states as examples of godless states, they simply replaced Yahweh with "Dear Leader" which is just another religion."

--Do you still feel that my mentioning genocide by atheistic and theocratic states is irrelevant and extraneous? My further comments about leftist governments were in response to previous comments about outlawing religion.

--You and I are in accord about the existence of love. I was saying the the true atheist believes it does not exist because it cannot be weighed or measured, not that I believe this. Please forgive me for pointing out that, you seem to have gotten the import of my statement just exactly the wrong way round. It seems to me that this point is exceedingly relevant in a discussion of religion, science and atheism.

--I noted your imperative statement "do not invent". I would be more inclined to comply with your wishes, if you would put them in the form of a request, rather than a command.

--Given your animus towards Christians and the US Military, it must be very irksome for you to live among the former and under the protection of the latter. In any case you are welcome here. "Let a thousand schools of thought contend" And, unlike Mao, I mean it. The solution to speech you do not like, is more speech, not less.

“We’re going to do for blacks exactly what blacks did for the revolution. By which I mean: nothing.” Che Guevera

Best Regards
Clear Ether
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #212 on: October 07, 2011, 03:55:46 am »
why people whine when something bad happen to him or somebody else? and talk nothing when they got something good? do rich people have to believe in god because they are rich? and poor and sick must not believe in god? do you expect something like heaven around you? gosh, i wish this thread never be raised again. just lot of people dont get it, and be more and more "pampered". love can be felt but cannot be measured. if you say can, then how?
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Kozmyk

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #213 on: October 07, 2011, 04:08:25 am »
love can be felt but cannot be measured. if you say can, then how?
Don't worry yourself Mechatrommer.
That naughty IanB has been making jokes without the use of emoticons again.  ;)
 

Online IanB

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #214 on: October 07, 2011, 04:57:22 am »
--I am afraid you mistook my point about the Spanish Inquisition and, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Castro, Guevara, Ho Chi Minh, et. al. My point, (as I think you well know), was not to excuse the depredations of the Spanish Inquisition, but rather to point out that, absolute power in the hands of anyone, atheists included, is likely to lead to genocide. I do not think that you believe I was saying it is alright, if you only kill a few people.
I'm afraid I was responding in light only of the recent videos linked by Alex and your apparent direct response--not the many dozens of previous posts which I felt were mostly old and dusty. And though I seemingly did not get your point, still do not see what it has to say about the existence or otherwise of a supreme being.

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--In view of the statements by Simon that:

"Religion is THE most EVIL thing on this planet. ANY religion !" and ""yep seems to do nothing but create wars instead"

--And the statement by HyperNova:

"And don't use those cold war atheist states as examples of godless states, they simply replaced Yahweh with "Dear Leader" which is just another religion."

--Do you still feel that my mentioning genocide by atheistic and theocratic states is irrelevant and extraneous? My further comments about leftist governments were in response to previous comments about outlawing religion.
As mentioned above: in the absence of other context I had assumed you were addressing the videos posted by Alex, which after all came months after the previous time this thread was active.

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--You and I are in accord about the existence of love. I was saying the the true atheist believes it does not exist because it cannot be weighed or measured, not that I believe this. Please forgive me for pointing out that, you seem to have gotten the import of my statement just exactly the wrong way round. It seems to me that this point is exceedingly relevant in a discussion of religion, science and atheism.
But once again, you seem to be imputing a belief to others without justification. Why should you decide what a "true atheist" believes if you are not one yourself? And why should a true atheist believe something so obviously false?

Quote
--I noted your imperative statement "do not invent". I would be more inclined to comply with your wishes, if you would put them in the form of a request, rather than a command.
That was not intended as a command, rather a concise form of words. Such as, for example, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Nothing more was intended.

Quote
--Given your animus towards Christians and the US Military, it must be very irksome for you to live among the former and under the protection of the latter. In any case you are welcome here. "Let a thousand schools of thought contend" And, unlike Mao, I mean it. The solution to speech you do not like, is more speech, not less.
I cannot excuse the British government any less than the US government when it comes to military adventures and atrocities committed on the world stage. There are no beacons of light here. Also please do not assume I have animosity towards a person or organization if I challenge their words or deeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Online IanB

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #215 on: October 07, 2011, 05:01:47 am »
Gosh, i wish this thread never be raised again.
I'll drink to that!  ;)
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #216 on: October 07, 2011, 05:38:54 am »
Dear IanB:

--Thank you for you detailed posting. I will take into consideration all that you have said. With your forbearance I will add one more small quibble. True atheists or "hard atheists" as they are called are not shy about stating that (1 There is no God. (2 People do not have souls, and do not have life after death, and (3 Love is strictly a molecular and hormonal business, if fact the delusion of conscientiousness is an artifact of this molecular machine. Surely, Sir you have read these statements. That is what I meant by true atheist. I meant the true "all in", "materialist" Dawkins type atheist. Not the so called "washy washy", "Carl Sagan" types like myself who want to have science and a soul as well. For though love and souls cannot be measured or proven, they may yet exist.

--Those of my brethren who insist on an exact physical reality, might want to steer clear of quantum physics.

“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.” Carl Sagan 1934-1996
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #217 on: October 07, 2011, 06:50:48 am »
Greeting EEVBees:

--For those of you who think "Evil Religion" is a major cause of war in recent history. I invite you to examine the below list. Keep in mind that it is only a "War of Religion" if both side are fighting to impose their religion on the other. I.E. India (which embraces many major religions) could hardly be accused of going to war with Pakistan in order to impose Hinduism. I grant that the Irish and the Israeli "troubles" are historically rooted in religious conflict.

--See below a list of wars since 1901:

    1904 - 1905 Russo-Japanese War
    1905 Revolution of 1905 in Russia
    1911 - 1912 Turco-Italian War fought over Libya
    1912 - 1913 Two Balkan Wars are fought for control of the European territories of the Ottoman Empire
    1914 - 1918 World War I, initially in Europe, then worldwide
    1916 Easter Rising rebellion in Ireland
    1917 - 1918 Russian Revolution
    1917 - 1920 Estonian Liberation War
    1918 Finnish Civil War, fought between "the reds" (rebellious Socialists) and "the whites" (anti-Socialists) in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution of 1917. Germany intervened on the side of the Whites.
    1918 - 1922 Russian Civil War, fought between "the reds" (Communists) and "the whites" (tsarists) directly after the Bolshevist Revolution. US, France and Britain also intervened on the side of the whites.
    1918 Polish-Czech war in Teschen Silesia
    1918 Viena expedition
    1918 - 1919 Poland and Lwow against Westukrainian Republic
    1918 - 1919 Great Poland Uprising, Provinz Posen against Germany
    1919 Third Anglo-Afghan War
    1919 First Silesian Uprising
    1919 Aunus expedition
    1919 - 1921 Polish-Soviet war Poland and Ukrainian Peoples Republic against Soviets
    1919 - 1921 Anglo-Irish War also known as the Irish War of Independence
    1919 - 1922 "Turkish War of Independence"
        1920 - 1922 Second Greco-Turkish War
    1920 Second Silesian Uprising Silesian Poles against Germany
    1921 Third Silesian Uprising Silesian Poles against Germany
    1922 - 1923 Irish Civil War
    1932 - 1935 Chaco War between Bolivia and Paraguay
    1934 - 1936 Northern Expedition by Kuomintang
    1935 - 1936 Second Italo-Abyssinian War
    1936 - 1939 Spanish Civil War
    1937 - 1945 Second Sino-Japanese War
    1939 - 1945 World War II
        1939 - 1940 Winter War; Part of WW II, Finland against Soviet Union
        1941 - 1944 Continuation War; Part of WW II, Finland against Soviet Union
        1944 - 1945 Lapland War; Part of WW II, Finland against Germany
        1941 - 1945 Pacific War; Part of WW II, Japan against Australia and the United States
    1941 - 1942 Border war between Ecuador and Peru

[change] Cold War era

    1944 - 1949 Greek Civil War
    1945 - 1949 Chinese Civil War
    1946 - 1954 First Indochina War
    1947 - 1949 First Kashmir War between India and Pakistan
    1948 - 1949 First Arab-Israeli War
    1948 - 1960 Malayan Emergency
    1950 - 1953 Korean War (UN-led coalition vs. North Korea)
    1952 - 1960 Mau Mau Uprising in Kenya
    1954 - 1962 Algerian War of Independence
    1954 - 1964 Vietnamese Civil War
    1955 - 1972 First Sudanese Civil War
    1956 Suez Crisis (Second Arab-Israeli War)
    1956 - 1959 Cuban Revolution
    1960 - 1996 Guatemalan Civil War
    1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion (CIA-sponsored invasion attempt by Cuban Nationals)
    1961 - 1975 Angolan War of Independence
    1962 - 1963 Sino-Indian War
    1964 - 1973 Vietnam War between the U.S.-led coalition (including the government of South Vietnam) and the National Liberation Front (NLF), backed by North Vietnam
    1964 - 1975 Mozambique's War of Independence
    1965 Second Kashmir War (Second Indo-Pakistani War)
    1965 - 1996 Chad Civil War
    1966 - 1988 Namibian War of Independence
    1967 Six-Day War (Third Arab-Israeli War)
    1967 - 1970 Biafra War in Nigeria
    1967 - 1975 Cambodian Civil War
    1969 Football War between Honduras and El Salvador.
    1971 The Pakistani Civil War that becomes the Third Indo-Pakistani War
    1973 Yom Kippur War (Fourth Arab-Israeli War)
    1974 - 1991 Ethiopian Civil War
    1975 - 1989 Angolan Civil War
    1975 - 1991 Lebanese Civil War
    1975 - 1998 War of Indepence in East Timor
    1979 Sino-Vietnamese War
    1979 - 1992 El Salvador Civil War
    1980 - 1988 Iran-Iraq War
    1981 Border war between Ecuador and Peru
    1982 Falklands War between United Kingdom and Argentina
    1982 Lebanon War
    1982 - 1984 Mozambique's Ciwil War
    1983 Operation Urgent Fury, U.S.-sponsored invasion of Grenada
    1983 - 2000 Civil War in Sri Lanka

[change] Post-Cold War era

    1988 - 1994 Nagorno-Karabakh war between Armenia and Azerbaijan
    1989 - 1990 Operation Just Cause, United States invades Panama
    1990 - 1991 Persian Gulf War between Iraq and UN-led coalition
    1990 - 1992 Rwanda Civil War
    1991 - 2001 Yugoslav Wars
        1991 Slovenian War
        1991 - 1995 Croatian War
        1992 - 1995 Bosnian War
        1998 - 1999 Kosovo War
        2001 Macedonian War
    1991 - 1993 Georgian civil wars
        1991 - 1992 South Ossetian war
        1992 - 1994 Abkhazian War
        1993 Georgian civil war, western Georgia
    1991 - 1997 Sierra Leone Civil War
    1993 - 1999 Burundi Civil War
    1994 Yemen Civil War
    1994 - 1996 First Chechen War
    1995 Cenepa War between Peru and Ecuador
    1996 - 1997 Liberian Civil War
    1998 - 2000 Border war between Ethiopia and Eritrea
    1999 Kargil Conflict
    1999 - 2003 Second Liberian Civil War
    2006 - Lebanon War between Israel and the Hezbollah (organization in Southern Lebanon)

[change] Ongoing wars

    1947 - Kashmir conflict between India and Pakistan
    1948 - Palestinian conflict with the Israelis
    1966 - Colombian Civil War
    1977 - Somalian Civil War
    1978 - Afghanistan Civil War
        1978 - Communist coup of 1978
        1978 - 1992 Civil war between Mujahideen and Democratic Republic of Afghanistan
            1979 - 1989 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
        1992 - 1993 Civil War between different tribal military forces
        1994 - 2001 Civil War between Taliban movement and Northern alliance
        2001 - United States war in Afghanistan
    1983 - Second Sudanese Civil War
    1992 - Civil War in Algeria
    1994 - Zapatista Revolution in Mexico
    1995 - Second Ugandan Civil War
    1996 - Civil War in Nepal
    1999 - Second Chechen War
    2001 - Civil War in Côte d'Ivoire
    2003 - Invasion of Iraq1
    2003 - Darfur conflict, Sudan
    2004 - Haiti rebellion
    2008 - Second South Ossetia War

--A casual perusal of this list leads me to the conclusion that if all people were secular, the vast majority of these wars would occur anyway for reasons of Nationalism, Resources, and Land. Indeed religion in the time of monarchies could arguably be said to be a major cause of wars, but since the time of Napoleon, not so much.

--What say you?

"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? William Butler Yeats 1865-1939
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #218 on: October 07, 2011, 12:08:21 pm »
--Please note that to a true atheist, there can be no such thing as love, because it cannot be weighed or measured, and must be accepted on faith. And obviously people cannot have souls. Right and wrong are superstitious concepts and only government can decide what is correct practice.
Jeez! Where did you dig that tripe up from?

Tripe indeed. But give'em a break, they don't have much else to argue with  ;)

Quote
My personal problem with an absolutist atheist stance is the belief that no deity or anything resembling one exists.
Such a belief is irrational as an individual cannot Know or prove a negative.
Logically, in the absence of any evidence, one should allow for the possibility that such an entity may exist, however faint.
An agnostic therefore has a more justifiable stance.

Depends on how you define Atheism.
In most sensible definitions it is simply "A lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".
And no credible Atheist I know thinks it is an absolutist thing.
They simply base their "belief" that there is no god, the same way they do for almost everything else in life, evidence and reason.
And of course based on the evidence (or practically complete lack thereof) and all the other absurd contradictions with all religions, the
The appearance of "absolutism" comes form the fact that to any rational free-thinking person who has investigated the matter, we are about as sure that there is no god as we are about gravity and evolution.

In my view an Agnostic is just someone who hasn't bothered to care enough to actually think about the subject in more detail and declare themselves an Atheist. Or simply takes the laissez-faire and non-confrontational approach, which is of course fine. Of course Agnostics are actually Atheists by almost all accounts, the only practical difference between the two is that one has the balls to come out and call it as bunk based on the evidence. Or Agnostics they may see some more "credibility" in the evidence for a god than an Atheist does, but it's still clear which side of the fence they sit on.

Atheists can be swayed, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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From a rationalist viewpoint human love is a psycho-chemically induced state that is genetically preprogrammed in order to facilitate pair bonding and infant care. This may be extended to family group members or strong friendship bonding.

Yes, and there is a ton of scientific evidence for love, morals, and all the other supposedly "unexplainable" things attributed to a creator.
There is in fact now almost a complete scientific view of how and why humans are prone to believing in gods and how it evolved.

Quote
Some people will believe anything. ;-)

Isn't there far cooler stuff to believe in than some all-powerful creator that you must constantly pray to, appease, and live in eternal judgement under as a servant?  ::)
Granted, it's a hell of a story, but were is the fun?

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #219 on: October 07, 2011, 12:22:22 pm »
--A casual perusal of this list leads me to the conclusion that if all people were secular,

the vast majority of these wars would occur anyway for reasons of Nationalism, Resources, and Land. Indeed religion in the time of monarchies could arguably be said to be a major cause of wars, but since the time of Napoleon, not so much.

--What say you?

But I think you'll find that most of them are not as "secular" as you claim. Belief in religion plays a big part in emotions and justifications for many aspects of war, both privately and publicly, at almost every level of the chain of command. But yes, you are correct that modern wars are not usually fought over religion, but religion is almost always used a motivator and woven into the whole thing once the wars are started.

Take the 2003 Iraq war for example. Bush famously said that "god told him to invade iraq", among much other stuff and many announcements about the war from within churches. And every American president that I am aware of in modern times has the words god bless, god protect, blah blah woven into every speech about the war.
Hardly secular.

Dave.
 

Offline Kozmyk

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #220 on: October 07, 2011, 03:28:39 pm »
Depends on how you define Atheism.
In most sensible definitions it is simply "A lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".
As you say a definition in terms.

The Wikipedia definition says "the rejection of belief in the existence of deities"
The operative word being "rejection".

I like to think that one who admits to not knowing something is being more honest with themselves than one who maintains that it is so without having any proof.
In that light I suppose I should prefer the description Agnostic Atheist or "Ateapotist" to quote Bertrand Russell (in honour of whom my middle name was given).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

I think that to ascribe a lack of "balls" to such a stance is an unnecessarily emotional response, in and of itself pointlessly confrontational.  ::)

Is a scientist who dares to consider the possibility that a neutrino may travel faster than light "sitting on the fence" ?
No, however much they may believe that it cannot, they have to admit to themselves that it may just be possible until further evidence proves otherwise.

Cooler things to believe in?
Universal sentience - that would make us the universe observing itself.
Many worlds interpretation - how many ones are you?
Harry Potter - will manifest - magick
You name it ...  ;)

I'm too busy trying to enjoy myself to be bothered with belief.
I guess that makes me a Hedonistic Agnostic Atheist.  ;D
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #221 on: October 07, 2011, 08:17:47 pm »
Dear Dave:

--I thank you for your response to my posting about wars and thier causes. With regard to your contention that George Bush said "God told me to invade Iraq"; Let me point out that I able to find only one source for this "quote", which I will detail below.

"""""In Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, a major three-part series on BBC TWO (at 9.00pm on Monday 10, Monday 17 and Monday 24 October), Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.

Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ." And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"""""

--I would like to point out that BBC does not quote George Bush as saying "God told me to invade Iraq", it quotes Nabil Shaath, Palestinian Foreign Minister as saying this is more or less what Bush told him. Minister Shaath's office's position on the non-existence the holocaust, is well known, and has previously told us that:

"There is no tangible evidence of any Jewish traces/remains in the old city of Jerusalem and its immediate vicinity."

--This BBC quote is from a time when there was an internal war going on at the BBC, and editorial opinions, seemed to be leaking over into the hard news. Case in point would be the "Kelly Affair" or the "Gilligan Affair". Andrew Gilligan, BBC corresponden alleged that the Blair administration had deliberately lied about the intelligence regarding WMDs in Iraq, had falsified documents and "sexed up" the dossiers. Subsequently, under pressure from the Government, Gilligan broke his pledge of annonomity to his source, Kelly, who then comitted suicide Truely, now the fit had hit the shan. Then:

"Panorama [a BBC program] condemns BBC's own conduct in Kelly affair, By Alasdair Palmer 12:01AM GMT 18 Jan 2004 [excerpt below]

"''''No one asked to see his notes, however, and so the BBC only discovered that what came to be the central plank of its defence - that Mr Gilligan was "only faithfully reporting the words that his source had told him" - was unsupported when the reporter gave evidence to the Hutton Inquiry.

He was then forced to admit that "I do regard those words as imperfect and I should not have said them.''''''

--While you may indeed be correct and the quote may indeed be accurate, I just wanted to point out the troubles of the BBC at that time, and that the ultimate source of the quote is from people who celebrated 9-11 by handing out candy. And so a grain of salt might be indicated.

--P.S. I noticed while I was posting this that your newest Video is up. I cannot wait to see how you pull off a "Walk Time Rant". You should get a dog, perhaps, to walk with you.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan 1934-1996

Best Regards
Clear Ether
 

alm

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #222 on: October 07, 2011, 09:30:23 pm »
In most sensible definitions it is simply "A lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".
Do you have a reference for this definition? All credible references (i.e. not Wikipedia or some random dude's video blog ;)) I checked define it as a belief that God does not exist.

And of course based on the evidence (or practically complete lack thereof) and all the other absurd contradictions with all religions, the
The appearance of "absolutism" comes form the fact that to any rational free-thinking person who has investigated the matter, we are about as sure that there is no god as we are about gravity and evolution.
I disagree. The absence of credible evidence in favor of theism is a much weaker proof than the evidence in support of gravity and evolution. It's much easier to prove the existence of something than to prove that something does not exist. The fact that one side has so far failed to scientifically prove the existence of God does not automatically mean that the other side has proven their point.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #223 on: October 07, 2011, 10:22:49 pm »
In most sensible definitions it is simply "A lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".
Do you have a reference for this definition? All credible references (i.e. not Wikipedia or some random dude's video blog ;)) I checked define it as a belief that God does not exist.

And that "belief" is based on (lack of evidence) evidence and reason. It is not blind belief or faith.
Every Atheist I know takes this stance.

Quote
I disagree. The absence of credible evidence in favor of theism is a much weaker proof than the evidence in support of gravity and evolution. It's much easier to prove the existence of something than to prove that something does not exist. The fact that one side has so far failed to scientifically prove the existence of God does not automatically mean that the other side has proven their point.

I never said they have, and no credible Atheist will ever claim to have proven anything. Atheists don't try and "prove" anything, they simply won't believe in extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence!

Dave.
 

Offline Kozmyk

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #224 on: October 07, 2011, 10:46:47 pm »
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? William Butler Yeats 1865-1939
Good old W.B.
I carried his version of the Bhagavad Gita all over India and beyond.

One does a lot of reading when travelling; waiting for trains, buses etc.
Access to TV in India wasn't what it was back home either.

First time I'd ever read Revelations right through as well.
There's a great story for you.
Multi-headed beasts, magical seals, end of the world.
Great stuff.
 


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