Author Topic: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......  (Read 63309 times)

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Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2011, 12:52:54 pm »
Thankfully not here.
Surprisingly to many, atheism is the fastest growing "religion" in many many countries, including the US.
But because it's effectively a "lack of belief", by it's very nature it's a very laissez-faire position and hence doesn't have the political momentum like the religions do.

Well, from census data over 10 years old there were 13% atheists in Slovakia. I'm hoping for at least 30% in the recent census, no idea when the data goes public.

From my perspective it seems like 90% people are atheists. However, this is people from cities, colleges, well educated and so on. Big part of population lives on small villages, each one has a church in them, everyone believes in god and nobody even questions it. They do however vote, mostly for christian, patriotic and communist (yeah, we do have one. Not in parliament luckily) parties.

I'm also hoping that one day we (but probably not we, I'm not that much optimistic :)) can look back at this like we do now on slavery, earth being flat and other nonsense. But these guys were around for thousands of years so it's going to take a while to kick them out.
 

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2011, 12:55:04 pm »
Nah what would be a real upset would be to have their president elected by merit rather than financial influence.
 A US president who wasn't financed into office would be a first, elect a non millionaire that'd be a turnaround.

I thought the anti-corporation anti-democracy part might cover that, but I stand corrected.
Make that a BROKE single female mother black atheist pro-choice anti-war anti-corporation anti-democracy president that will prosecute Bush and uphold the total separation of church and state.  ;D

Dave.
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2011, 12:58:08 pm »
Make that a BROKE single female mother black atheist pro-choice anti-war anti-corporation anti-democracy president that will prosecute Bush and uphold the total separation of church and state.  ;D

Black is old news. Make that Chinese. Also, change the banknotes to say something else than "In god we trust"
 

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2011, 01:06:17 pm »
Thankfully not here.
Surprisingly to many, atheism is the fastest growing "religion" in many many countries, including the US.
But because it's effectively a "lack of belief", by it's very nature it's a very laissez-faire position and hence doesn't have the political momentum like the religions do.

Well, from census data over 10 years old there were 13% atheists in Slovakia. I'm hoping for at least 30% in the recent census, no idea when the data goes public.

From my perspective it seems like 90% people are atheists.

That's not surprising. The majority of non-religious people (agnostics if you will) will never say they are athiests, as they likely haven't thought that hard about it nor care enough to actually claim that title.
The numbers aren't too dissimilar here in Oz if memory serves me correctly. The number of actual practicing religious people barely hits double digits, yet the census data does not reflect that.

Census questions are often poorly worded. In fact here in the Oz Atheist Foundation is running a campaign to get people to answer the religion question accurately. As most put down what "religion" they tokenly "born into" (yes, that term makes me puke).

Quote
However, this is people from cities, colleges, well educated and so on. Big part of population lives on small villages, each one has a church in them, everyone believes in god and nobody even questions it. They do however vote, mostly for christian, patriotic and communist (yeah, we do have one. Not in parliament luckily) parties.

I'm also hoping that one day we (but probably not we, I'm not that much optimistic :)) can look back at this like we do now on slavery, earth being flat and other nonsense. But these guys were around for thousands of years so it's going to take a while to kick them out.

It was actually looking pretty good back in the 19th century I believe, but something went horribly backwards in the 20th century. I blame the invention of television and the yanks putting "In God we Trust" on their notes in the 50's.
Unfortunately I live just down the road from the Hillsong Intergalactic Headquarters, and you'd thing there is yet another new revival coming around.  >:(

Dave.
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2011, 01:18:04 pm »
That's not surprising. The majority of non-religious people (agnostics if you will) will never say they are athiests, as they likely haven't thought that hard about it nor care enough to actually claim that title.
The numbers aren't too dissimilar here in Oz if memory serves me correctly. The number of actual practicing religious people barely hits double digits, yet the census data does not reflect that.

Census questions are often poorly worded. In fact here in the Oz Atheist Foundation is running a campaign to get people to answer the religion question accurately. As most put down what "religion" they tokenly "born into" (yes, that term makes me puke).

Exactly, most people just don't care. That's why I like the idea of militant atheism (see this TED talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism.html). I don't think it's an issue here, we don't have any creationism bullshit in schools and other stuff like in the US. But getting to over 50% people that see themselves strongly as atheists will be the important step, from there on religion is a minority that will fall into oblivion.

Also, "born into". Maybe we shouldn't let parents decide this. Until you are 18 you are not allowed to go to church. If you decide to do so once you are an educated and responsible adult do what you want.
 

Uncle Vernon

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2011, 01:30:44 pm »
Unfortunately I live just down the road from the Hillsong Intergalactic Headquarters, and you'd thing there is yet another new revival coming around.  >:(

Dave.

Have you seen the camera system inside that place? Smile and clap and sign this invoice please.  Creepy to the max and clearly a very lucrative pursuit. 

I couldn't sleep at night with all that fake smiling happening so close.  :-[
 

Alex

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2011, 01:35:17 pm »
But these guys were around for thousands of years so it's going to take a while to kick them out.

Back then they didn't have the Internet, video games, facebook, television, X-factor, Justin Bieber, David Beckham, comedians like George Carlin* the IMF and of course EEVBlog.

It will take less time than one might think!

*Enjoy:

 

Offline tinhead

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2011, 04:01:51 pm »
haha George Carlin, some day a stupid religious moron will comes to his show with a-bomb and blow the audience away .. and then ? Frakk, then everybody will have to believe in God?

Regards womans, yeah, i tell you something what my daughter asked. We watched one of these National Geogrpahic Universe something shows ... a bunch of them. After a half a day watching show she said following:

"we have 200 billions galaxies, each of them let say 100 billion stars , so about 200 milion stable solar systems per galaxy ...
so the chance that there is somewhere an inteligent creature like human being is huuuge ...
but wait, it must be a specific planet, not to big not to small, it must be a specific distance from local sun, such planet need high destiny inner core to create huge enough magnetic field, in same solar system must be one or more gas giants to catch up the asteroids/meteors - but not to many because the planet will have not enough watter and not to less becaus  the planet will have to much watter, such planet need a moon to stabilize the plant ... and so on. Then, remember, the earth inner core is a bit unique due colision with another planet .. so how it the chance on such colision if we know that direct colision between two stars is already unique? (note: this is actually what one of the Astrophysicist said "chance of colision nearly zero")
And now, how big is the chance that the colision happens with exact right one angle? (note: to allow inner core fussions and not blow up both planets) and then how big is the chance that the planet will have plate tectonics which seems to be neccesary to suport evolution/life .. and the how big is the chance that there will be life? and finaly an inteligent species?
So dad, if you divide the 200bil*200mil by all these "if" how many inteligent species are there?"


I was about to answer like "only one - us!, there is God who created only us so don't ask such stupid questions", but finally i
said "i'm to old to count in my head, go google for all these numbers and divide by yourself" and bougt a good scientific calculator  ;)



I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2011, 04:46:42 pm »
So dad, if you divide the 200bil*200mil by all these "if" how many inteligent species are there?"
There are few more factors (like you need to have both of the civilizations alive at the same time), as represented by the Drake equation. Most of those parameters are really a wild guess.

I was about to answer like "only one - us!, there is God who created only us so don't ask such stupid questions"
I'm glad you didn't. That isn't a stupid question, in fact it is a really profound and important one. Get you daughter some books about science and astronomy. Maybe a telescope.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2011, 05:29:36 pm »
Sure, it is too much coincidence when you get to this point in which we are, definitely there's something guiding this world. It just can't be random.

Our planet won the lottery, likely billions of other planets didn't. If you won a national lottery would you need to believe some kind of fairy godmother arranged it for you?

 

Offline Vertigo

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2011, 05:42:45 pm »

"we have 200 billions galaxies, each of them let say 100 billion stars , so about 200 milion stable solar systems per galaxy ...
so the chance that there is somewhere an inteligent creature like human being is huuuge ...
but wait, it must be a specific planet, not to big not to small, it must be a specific distance from local sun, such planet need high destiny inner core to create huge enough magnetic field, in same solar system must be one or more gas giants to catch up the asteroids/meteors - but not to many because the planet will have not enough watter and not to less becaus  the planet will have to much watter, such planet need a moon to stabilize the plant ... and so on. Then, remember, the earth inner core is a bit unique due colision with another planet .. so how it the chance on such colision if we know that direct colision between two stars is already unique? (note: this is actually what one of the Astrophysicist said "chance of colision nearly zero")
And now, how big is the chance that the colision happens with exact right one angle? (note: to allow inner core fussions and not blow up both planets) and then how big is the chance that the planet will have plate tectonics which seems to be neccesary to suport evolution/life .. and the how big is the chance that there will be life? and finaly an inteligent species?
So dad, if you divide the 200bil*200mil by all these "if" how many inteligent species are there?"



plenty.
that argument supposed that life as we know it here is a template for any life anywhere.
there is nothing to say that life cannot evolve on planets different from our own, only that life as we know it
cannot evolve on a different planet, and we only know life as it happens to exist on this one planet.

oh and also the argument rarely takes time into account.
if u want to do the match correctly you need to also multiply by all time between now and
that period after the big bang once the plants cooled down enuff to support biochemistry. (including biochemistry as we do not yet know it)

and then theres the matter of dimensions...
who is to say that intelligent life has to come in the form of a material entity?
haven't u ever watched star trek? :P

---

as for things going wrong in the 20th century, i would like to recommend a documentary:

a very powerful piece about psychology, how we look at ourselves, propaganda and public relations etc.
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2011, 05:48:42 pm »
Sure, it is too much coincidence when you get to this point in which we are, definitely there's something guiding this world. It just can't be random.

Our planet won the lottery, likely billions of other planets didn't. If you won a national lottery would you need to believe some kind of fairy godmother arranged it for you?

Exactly, you are looking only at one side of the picture. Imaging all those non-existent forms of life on all the other planets non-thinking how it sucks that they don't exist. There are billions and billions of them. Lets say there is another form of life, much like ours somewhere distant. They are probably thinking the same, how lucky they are to exist. But since only forms of life that exist can think this, they are not that lucky at all. (Ew, there must be a better way to say this but I can't think of it)

Also, there is something guiding this world. Natural selection. Each one of those little steps, small errors for good or bad along the way, isn't that unlikely or lucky. And the bad ones disappear and you never see them.

If, somehow, you put all the attempts at life, every failed generation, every mutation that did more bad than good, you would see that what we have today is a tiny little fraction of that. But since you can't see it, it feels like everything went too well to be just a coincidence.
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2011, 05:49:54 pm »
Don't forget to watch the original

The combined IQ of these broads is less than my shoe size.

Love miss Georgia :- "We are smarter than ever these days"....

Nope, kids are as dumb as ever if not dumber. They just think they are smart because no one is allowed to tell them they are dumb for fear of damaging their self esteem. Dumb people who think they are smart are a much bigger problem than dumb people who know they are dumb.

edit: corrected dumb typo ;)

They think the society gets smarter, but the truth is that a small, reduced group of people think big.
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2011, 05:54:23 pm »
It's somewhat unfair that half the population is routinely represented by dim coat hangers with long eyelashes.

Still the dim market must be pretty big when they can sell jars of promises called anti aging creme  for $150 a pop. These videos going some way towards explaining why.

Where's the Like button?
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2011, 06:05:12 pm »
Some people really should not be allowed out if not on a lead and should actively told how stupid they are. If people get offended about the truth then that's their problem, the truth is a mathematical certainty  ;D

Just keep thinking like than and...
http://youtu.be/qOfxGR0K9jA
Go to 3:05
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 06:41:41 pm by ivan747 »
 

Offline Sionyn

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2011, 07:09:45 pm »
speaking anti ageing products

if you haven't read bad science then do so
eecs guy
 

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2011, 12:47:12 am »
Have you seen the camera system inside that place? Smile and clap and sign this invoice please.  Creepy to the max and clearly a very lucrative pursuit. 

I can't imagine going inside, I think I'd take one step and feel the compulsive need to throw up!
It's bad enough at Norwest shopping centre where they all hang out.

Dave.
 

Uncle Vernon

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2011, 12:56:23 am »
I can't imagine going inside

It was paid work, I wasn't there for clapping lessons.  :o

It's bad enough at Norwest shopping centre where they all hang out.

Dave.

Agreed, all the creepy smiling has put me right off my kebab on more than one occasion!  :-\
 

Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2011, 11:27:49 am »
Interesting to see so large interest in a "philosophical" topic...

I think there is a non-problem greatly magnified: science and religion just work on different ("orthogonal") planes. You won't understand belief using only a scientific approach. You won't proof God exists, as you won't proof it doesn't exist.

The Creationism vs Evolutionism thing seems to be a very American issue, which I think comes from a great misunderstanding (there could be some interests involved, but I don't see which they could be).

Surprisingly to many, atheism is the fastest growing "religion" in many many countries, including the US.
But because it's effectively a "lack of belief", by it's very nature it's a very laissez-faire position and hence doesn't have the political momentum like the religions do.
I don't consider very positively the people who just "don't care", whether they are among the officially believers or among the atheists. "Active atheism", or the glorification of science seems to me too much to just another religion.

If atheism is the fastest growing religion, sorry but I can't still see those great benefits, in the world's trend. Do you think death of religions will solve so many problems? The major religions bring a message of love between people. I don't think this is a bad thing, it shouldn't hurt you so muh (apart from those using religion for their interests). Even if this is based on reasons you consider silly or wrong.

Sandro
One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man. - Elbert Hubbard
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2011, 12:07:21 pm »
a message of love between people

... people of the same religion, and war between different religions.

I don't care about religion as it is, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and beliefs. But it has absolutely no place in schools, and no say in science. Religion is teaching people to be satisfied with superficial explanations and slowing science progress. And I'm not talking about burning for heliocentricism here. Many modern clinical trials involving stem cell and related research is banned in many countries because it's against the religion.
 

Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2011, 01:21:27 pm »
a message of love between people

... people of the same religion, and war between different religions.

I don't care about religion as it is, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and beliefs. But it has absolutely no place in schools, and no say in science. Religion is teaching people to be satisfied with superficial explanations and slowing science progress. And I'm not talking about burning for heliocentricism here. Many modern clinical trials involving stem cell and related research is banned in many countries because it's against the religion.

"Love your enemies", doesn't seem to say that.
IMO, schools should at least teach what religions are, to avoid the prejudice.

About the stem cells... I think that even if I was an atheist, I wouldn't kill one innocent individual just to save another. It has to do with civility rather than with religion, even if the Christians are the first to say this. Can one scientifically say an embryo is not alive? At which age does it become an individual? These are questions I hope everyone have asked themselves, but I know many people just have accepted an aswer coming from the authority.

However, if science is not an opinion, history is not completely an opinion, too. The first universities came from religious institutions: not all the religious people has been so bad that wanted to obscure science.
One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man. - Elbert Hubbard
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2011, 04:18:19 pm »
a message of love between people
... people of the same religion, and war between different religions.

It is a bit funny, natural selection is responsible for the religions we have today, they all need to follow more or less the same recipe for survival which boils down to :-

Promise believers nice things after death (which avoids actually having to deliver nice things). Promise non-believers horrible things after death and if you can't get them to believe doing horrible things to them and killing them is OK (leaves more resources for believers).

Encourage breeding of new believers.

Strongly discourage any loss of belief, don't allow interaction with non-believers apart from trying to convert them. Portray non-believers as inferior and sub-human.
 

Offline Armin_Balija

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2011, 06:48:44 pm »
Surprisingly to many, atheism is the fastest growing "religion" in many many countries, including the US.
But because it's effectively a "lack of belief", by it's very nature it's a very laissez-faire position and hence doesn't have the political momentum like the religions do.
I don't consider very positively the people who just "don't care", whether they are among the officially believers or among the atheists. "Active atheism", or the glorification of science seems to me too much to just another religion.

If atheism is the fastest growing religion, sorry but I can't still see those great benefits, in the world's trend. Do you think death of religions will solve so many problems? The major religions bring a message of love between people. I don't think this is a bad thing, it shouldn't hurt you so muh (apart from those using religion for their interests). Even if this is based on reasons you consider silly or wrong.

Sandro

The problem with allowing religions to persist is that it penetrates and influences people on a level that will have an effect on everyone.

A president who believes a God is judging him will not pass a law that allows the use of stem cells to cure awful diseases.

A pope will speak out against the use of contraceptives in HIV/AIDS inflicted Africa because of his religion.

Bishops/Priests will molest children because they are not allowed to practice homosexuality/marry one another. (They molest the children because they feel the children will not speak up against it/not remember it. Let's not kid ourselves.)

Representatives/Politicians use religion as a weapon in politics to win a favorable position in the general public's eyes.


The problem with religion is that an imaginary friend influences people on a bigger scale than we could ever imagine. It has to stop. Religion only creates problems.
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2011, 07:48:17 pm »
Nicely said.

Also, before this turns into a huge flamewar, remember that it's very hard, if not impossible, to reason someone out of a position they reasoned themselves into. Unless you are willing to take a step back and ask questions there is no discussion. It's preaching.
 

Offline Vertigo

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2011, 09:45:37 pm »

 


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