Author Topic: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......  (Read 63525 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2011, 12:26:10 am »
Surprisingly to many, atheism is the fastest growing "religion" in many many countries, including the US.
But because it's effectively a "lack of belief", by it's very nature it's a very laissez-faire position and hence doesn't have the political momentum like the religions do.
I don't consider very positively the people who just "don't care", whether they are among the officially believers or among the atheists. "Active atheism", or the glorification of science seems to me too much to just another religion.

If atheism is the fastest growing religion, sorry but I can't still see those great benefits, in the world's trend. Do you think death of religions will solve so many problems? The major religions bring a message of love between people. I don't think this is a bad thing, it shouldn't hurt you so muh (apart from those using religion for their interests). Even if this is based on reasons you consider silly or wrong.

That's why I put "religion" in parentheses. Atheism is not a religion, it is simply a lack of belief in a god, gods, or the supernatural etc.
Some are more vocal about it than others though, and some even form into the groups to help spread the word of reason.

Yes, getting rid of religion would solve many of the worlds problems, I have no doubt, if it's actually possible. If you don't think that, then you have not studied history and.or you have blinkers on.
Actually, I have no problem with people believing in a god (i.e. a theist), as long as you are willing to admit that you have absolutely no proof for it. When people start sprouting "the word of god" and waving their fictitious "holy book" around, that's when I start to have a problem with it.

Dave.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 12:29:15 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2011, 01:08:37 am »
The first universities came from religious institutions: not all the religious people has been so bad that wanted to obscure science.

Until they discovered that scientific results were leading more and more against the teachings of the church, then the shit hit the fan.
They (the churches) have been backpedaling into oblivion ever since.
And if science has shown us one thing, it's how incorrect "the world of god" (a.k.a the bible, a.k.a *insert any other holy book) actually is, and what a joke anyone is who actually tries to interpret it and take it literally.
The religious emperor has no clothes.

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2011, 01:10:34 am »
The major religions bring a message of love between people.

That is quite possibly the greatest red herring in the history of the world.

Dave.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2011, 07:04:20 am »
The major religions bring a message of love between people.

That is quite possibly the greatest red herring in the history of the world.

Dave.

yep seems to do nothing but create wars instead
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Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2011, 07:13:43 am »
Too many things to reply to...
Forgive my poor writing, it's quite difficult to discuss such topics in my third language. I don't want to be aggressive, but I'm not always sure about how my words sound to you.

Maybe religion is just a cultural thing (yes, I live in the country of Rome), but I don't think that lack of belief is a guarantee of one acting fairly. As being a religious has not prevented people from do horrible things. As a note, today the campain is against the Catholic church. As for the data I know, there is no proof pedophilia has been more frequent among priests than among common people. Which is really sad from both sides, BTW.

I'm not trying to preach. I'm just claiming my right to believe and not being judged as a stupid by default. And I think that, maybe, I don't know history and many other things, but maybe many of you haven't seen what some "believers" do every day, without asking for anything, in the silence, to help other people (without lookin at their religion, race or other). Whether they do this for a prize after Death, or just because it's right, it's hidden in their hearts. But this must make us ask why they do this. Just as I find it extraordinary how so many people (Dave for example) spend much of their time to spread their passion for technics, helping other people to learn.

I hope it's clear that for me it's impossible to proof the presence of God. Even the reasoning of going back to the origin of all (up to the Big Bang... and before) doesn't proof anything. One could however call "God" what you call chance (what is the physical law behind the random happening of Big Bang?). All I want to say is there is no prior incompatibility between reason and belief ("heart"). As a parallel, I think all of you have been in love. That's not a rational condition, if you think of it, but you do (of course, it has its evolutional origins), and it's one of the most beautiful things in the world.

And if science has shown us one thing, it's how incorrect "the world of god" (a.k.a the bible, a.k.a *insert any other holy book) actually is, and what a joke anyone is who actually tries to interpret it and take it literally.
The religious emperor has no clothes.
The holy books were written by people thousands years ago, using their own language. I only (little) know the Bible, and of course there are interpretations and, worse, people taking it literally, but a message is there. Again, it's not reason. If you don't want to use your heart, too, OK, no problem for me. Just let me use it, unless I dont' hurt you, of course!
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Offline Simon

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2011, 07:23:11 am »
regarding pedophelia it is that the priests are getting away with it. I have doubts of our current pope and he protect priests from prosecution. If that is the catholic religeous sentiment i want no part of it thanks. In the world of my own in my head criminals, once identified are brought to justice.

I will never forget when an Italian priest was caught out abusing the alter boy (I was living in italy at the time) and his stupid stupid stupid parishioners protected him and kept the TV camera's away claiming they were defending their faith. A very very sad thing that people get brain washed so. Religion is THE most EVIL thing on this planet. ANY religion !
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Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2011, 07:28:51 am »
If I was brain washed at that point, I guess I won't be here discussing, I was just shouting "Satan" to all of you!  ;)
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Offline Simon

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2011, 07:31:33 am »
If I was brain washed at that point, I guess I won't be here discussing, I was just shouting "Satan" to all of you!  ;)

I know, I'm just saying it is a pity (or a crime) that much of Italy is brainwashed so as are people all over the world. even as a kid I could not understand this obsession with god as there was no proof of him, lots of silly people going to worship.... nothing
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Offline CodeDog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2011, 07:53:13 am »
... I have no problem with people believing in a god (i.e. a theist), as long as you are willing to admit that you have absolutely no proof for it..

I have no problem with people believing in science either ...

x := matter;
approachScientist();
repeat
  answer := askScientistWhatItIsMadeOf(x);
  x := answer
until scientistHasNoIdea == true;

i think you only have iterate the loop 5 or 6 times before you have to start believing in things that noone can prove exists
 

Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2011, 08:43:11 am »
 :D Nice approach!
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Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2011, 09:01:31 am »
Yes, getting rid of religion would solve many of the worlds problems, I have no doubt, if it's actually possible. If you don't think that, then you have not studied history and.or you have blinkers on.

Well, I have solid reasons not to think so: human kind has demonstrated it is able to start a war for the most strange and unrational reasons, also not involving religion. Better, someone was so clever to make people fight for him using those reasons.
Examples? What Hitler did before and during the WWII ("Hebrew" was just a race term), the tens of millions people killed in the USSR, ... and how about the current military missions in Libya? The dirty oil interests covered by a clean international sentence...

I just want to point out that not all of what comes from religion is evil. Another thought from history is the way solidarity is applied by the state, at least here in Europe. If you're in health trouble, the state always cares of you, even if you're a criminal, even if you're an illegal immigrate, at no charge, if you have no money. Sorry, but I can't have a doubt this comes from our Christian culture, since the first hospitals came from there. Are these things such bad products of religion?
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Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2011, 09:13:31 am »
BTW, besides evolutionism is at the moment the most proved theory, I also like the idea, being the Universe a giant negative feedback system!  :)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 09:23:58 am by scrat »
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Offline Zero999

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2011, 10:01:46 am »
Well, I have solid reasons not to think so: human kind has demonstrated it is able to start a war for the most strange and unrational reasons, also not involving religion. Better, someone was so clever to make people fight for him using those reasons.
Examples? What Hitler did before and during the WWII ("Hebrew" was just a race term), the tens of millions people killed in the USSR, ... and how about the current military missions in Libya? The dirty oil interests covered by a clean international sentence...

You're right.

There have been no wars caused purely by religion. The real reasons for war have always been power and wealth, nothing else. Organised religion has been used by the state to control the people which is why authoritarian regimes of the past have worked to convert their population to their belief and suppressed all others.

It's not always religion, any ideology can be used to control people. In the Soviet Union Marxism was used to control the population and was totally atheist. Nazi Germany used fascism which used "scientific" proof that certain races are inferior and should be eliminated from the gene pool.

Quote
I hope it's clear that for me it's impossible to proof the presence of God. Even the reasoning of going back to the origin of all (up to the Big Bang... and before) doesn't proof anything. One could however call "God" what you call chance (what is the physical law behind the random happening of Big Bang?). All I want to say is there is no prior incompatibility between reason and belief ("heart"). As a parallel, I think all of you have been in love. That's not a rational condition, if you think of it, but you do (of course, it has its evolutional origins), and it's one of the most beautiful things in the world.

Atheism may not be a religion but it's still a philosophical position: an atheist can't prove their is no god, just because by the absence of proof that god does exist.

Some people treat science as a religion, they fall in love with a theory and will defend it whatever the costs, even if the balance of evidence is against them - this is bad science. Scientists may be able to prove that religious texts such as the bible are wrong but as soon as they use this as proof that god doesn't exist they've crossed the line.

There are many scientific theories which are short on proof, the big bang being one of them. I can't see how anyone can say they're 100% certain the universe started with the big bang. It just seems like the most likely theory given the evidence. On the face of it, saying everything spontaneously appeared from nothing is not much better than saying it was made by god. It's only when you look at the evidence that the big bang makes more sense.

Science should be secular and keep away from proving the existence of god or otherwise.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2011, 12:12:12 pm »
Atheism may not be a religion but it's still a philosophical position: an atheist can't prove their is no god, just because by the absence of proof that god does exist.

Atheist do not set out to prove, nor do they claim that god don't exist. They simply hold the position that, given the evidence (or lack there of) it's most probable that there is no god. And given the even greater probability that their is no god as described by (say) the christian bible, it just gets more laughable and improbable the more you look at it.
The christian god for example is no more likely to exist as stated than Thor, Ra, or any of the hundreds of other gods that have been worshiped over the eons.

As the famous saying goes "We are all atheists about most of the gods humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." (IIRC, wrongly attributed to Richard Dawkins)

Quote
Some people treat science as a religion, they fall in love with a theory and will defend it whatever the costs, even if the balance of evidence is against them - this is bad science. Scientists may be able to prove that religious texts such as the bible are wrong but as soon as they use this as proof that god doesn't exist they've crossed the line.

No credible scientist or atheist does, as stated above. This is one of the biggest misunderstanding about atheists.
I'm as hardened an atheist as you'll find, but I will quite happily believe in any god you care to put forward, just give me enough reasonable evidence so I can reason that, based on that evidence, it's most likely true. And this is the way any credible atheist thinks.

Quote
There are many scientific theories which are short on proof, the big bang being one of them. I can't see how anyone can say they're 100% certain the universe started with the big bang.

No credible scientist in the field claims such a thing.

Quote
It just seems like the most likely theory given the evidence. On the face of it, saying everything spontaneously appeared from nothing is not much better than saying it was made by god. It's only when you look at the evidence that the big bang makes more sense.
Science should be secular and keep away from proving the existence of god or otherwise.

Science doesn't do that. No brand of science has anything to do with proving or disproving any god, although some fields are much closer to it than others. Science is used to explain the world around us, and almost without fail the results of which hammer one more nail in the coffin of any god hypothesis. Not because it sets out to that, that's just the natural consequence of the things we discover.

Dave.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 12:15:27 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2011, 12:29:34 pm »
Maybe religion is just a cultural thing (yes, I live in the country of Rome), but I don't think that lack of belief is a guarantee of one acting fairly. As being a religious has not prevented people from do horrible things. As a note, today the campain is against the Catholic church. As for the data I know, there is no proof pedophilia has been more frequent among priests than among common people.

There is written evidence that the Catholic church ordered it all covered it, search for the "Crimen Sollicitationis" document and all that surrounds it.
And the latest authoriser of the document, the current pope (when working under JPII)

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Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2011, 02:04:46 pm »
Looks like someone is reposting videos ... :)

Just one little thing I want to say:
There are many scientific theories which are short on proof, the big bang being one of them. I can't see how anyone can say they're 100% certain the universe started with the big bang. It just seems like the most likely theory given the evidence. On the face of it, saying everything spontaneously appeared from nothing is not much better than saying it was made by god. It's only when you look at the evidence that the big bang makes more sense.

Alright, stop right there. That is NOT what theory means. Theories are things that have been proved. There are many hypothesis. I could produce hypothesis all day long, and they wouldn't be any worse that there is a magical guy with unlimited powers which he decided to use to put you to hell if you don't worship him.

Gravitational theory, theory of evolution and so on. All have a lot of evidence backing them. So does the Big Bang theory. It might not be the full picture. It most likely isn't. There so much more stuff to discover. And that is what science does. Take little steps forward, throwing away anything that turns out to be wrong without looking back.

On the other hand, religion decided thousands of years ago on every little thing. And no matter what, they won't change their minds. They can't accept they were wrong in the first place.

Also, while we are on the subject of pope, here's another peace by Richard Dawkins:
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2011, 03:36:36 pm »
Alright, stop right there. That is NOT what theory means. Theories are things that have been proved.

Theories have not been proved. Theories have been and are being tested and those that have not been disproved by testing remain (valid) theories.

We don't absolutely know anything, for all we know The Matrix could be real and our bodies are all sitting in tubs of jelly imagining everything.

The value of theories is that they allow us to predict what will happen in the future which is incredibly useful. That would be the basis of my objection to the teaching of creationism. Natural selection is a well tested theory which allows us to predict the future with a reasonable chance of success. Creationism tells us the future depends on the whim of a supernatural being of which we have little understanding and no real communication and so is utterly worthless for predicting the future.
 

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2011, 04:42:45 pm »
... I have no problem with people believing in a god (i.e. a theist), as long as you are willing to admit that you have absolutely no proof for it..

I have no problem with people believing in science either ...

x := matter;
approachScientist();
repeat
  answer := askScientistWhatItIsMadeOf(x);
  x := answer
until scientistHasNoIdea == true;

i think you only have iterate the loop 5 or 6 times before you have to start believing in things that noone can prove exists


Particle physics researchers/scientists have answered this and with the LHC experiments they have a good chance of figuring out the mass particle too.



We used to think that lightning and epidemics were the wrath of the Gods. We know better now. The scientific method has been constantly disproving such theories for hundrends of thousands of years.

So say God (or whatever) exists. Does that make any difference whatsoever?! For all I can see around me, we are on our own. That is proof, until maybe one day we are proven wrong. We have to work with the most likely, based on proof, scenario. Where is the proof for religion? Show me and I will believe you! Don't misunderstand me, I want to believe you; I want to rest my mind on the soft cushion religion promises.



« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 04:44:57 pm by Alex »
 

Offline scrat

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2011, 04:59:10 pm »
Quote
Don't misunderstand me, I want to believe you; I want to rest my mind on the soft cushion religion promises.

Today, around here, the soft cushion is caring for nothing, "panem et circenses" is the way to go, until money will finish. Making choices is the difficult thing, so people don't care to believe or not. I largely prefer someone who says to be an atheist, than one saying he's a Catholic and doesn't even know what this means.
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Online Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2011, 05:33:39 pm »
i've been skipping this thread but for just few hours and it turn to pages. i'm shocked but not surprised religion is discussed offtopic from math. so let me throw my 2cnts. there are four books of holy "zabur", "torah" "torah", "zabur/mazmur", "bible" and "qoran" (dont know whats called for the 1st 2nd book in english). all was originally written by God. my ancestors told me and i believe it. if its written by human, each book will have very different point because each group will try to write what they believe and try to smack the other book untruthfull in some points. but... i know you all technical people, studying those 4 books may reveal you the truth. whether they are any different, or they bring one or more the same important points. i dont have reach to the 1st 2 books, i wish i have all of them, the original version, not tampered by human writing.

nowadays wars because oil and money and power since the beginning of human being. read "adam and eve and their sons kiil each other story" i believe its in every holy books. you dont need religion arguments to start a war, it can be anything (a devil in everybody self). its because lack of belief and practice of the true religion. the same if you dont follow EMC, CE or whatever standard in ee design, you can design noncompliance dangerous and noisy electronics circuit.

from logical point of view of math, the deduction is like this. every matter has a beginning or the maker. a circuit board will not just pop up out of nowhere, somebody must created it, the same to plant from seed, information processing start from living thing etc etc, a challege is to find a matter popped out of nowhere (no creator). so deduction logic tells me, human must have a creator or designer, ie god. and lastly, scientists now believe not everything they can measure. think they can measure God? if you dont believe god (or rule) you better kill yourself, or if you wanna have fun living on earth. rape rob kill anybody else just for fun and kill yourself later, because you believe once you dead it will be a black dot full stop of it. amin.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 10:54:44 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2011, 06:04:28 pm »
i've been skipping this thread but for just few hours and it turn to pages. i'm shocked but not surprised religion is discussed offtopic from math.

The subject is from the parody video to a religion related video in the second post so not offtopic.

there are four books of holy "zabur", "torah", "bible" and "qoran" (dont know whats called for the 1st book in english). all was originally written by God.
How do you decide which are the holy books? If I found an old book like that, would you add it to the collection?

my ancestors told me and i believe it.
Think of something other people told you that turned out to be false or wrong. Or maybe I should say some things since I'm sure there was a lot. I'm not saying they are lying to you. They tell you this because they believe it. Why? Because they were told it by someone. Why did that someone believe it? ... Turtles all the way down.

a circuit board will not just pop up out of nowhere, somebody must created it, the same to plant from seed, information processing start from living thing etc etc, a challege is to find a matter popped out of nowhere (no creator).
And who created the creator? Surely something so complex it can create our entire universe in 7 days (whatever "day" means when you don't even have sun yet) can't just pop out of nowhere? The must be a god god, that created god. See, again an infinite progression that leads you nowhere.

if you dont believe god (or rule) you better kill yourself, or if you wanna have fun living on earth. rape rob kill anybody else just for fun and kill yourself later, because you believe once you dead it will be a black dot full stop of it. amin.
I don't understand the "better kill yourself" at all. Actually, people who believe in afterlife should be the ones killing themselves (I'm not suggesting this, just to be clear). They will go to heaven and be happy forever. Atheists, on the other hand, have nothing to look for in death. After you die, that's it.

About that rape, rob and kill thing, I'm assuming (sorry, maybe it's the grammar, maybe I'm just thick) you are talking about atheists not having morals. This is one of the most annoying things to me. If you are saying (as many religious people are) that morals come from bible (10 commandments etc) and atheists are therefore terrible people, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Because I (and millions other atheists) are a good people that don't kill someone because it's wrong. But religious people don't kill someone because bible tells them they can't. At least morals found in an old book are better than none.
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2011, 06:18:02 pm »
i mean whats the point of living if you dont believe in god=afterlife? and what do you care about moral if in the end you will be nothing? if i dont believe in god, what i did in the past and future will be nothing!
my ancestors only told 4 holy books, they are all are, not more not less. you can think of like 1st to 4th edition where each edition is added/ammended in content to cope with human intelligent, comprehensibility and culture during the time. the 4th is the last one we need, nothing more. more than that is nothing but our objection to what god told us, since we think we are too clever. destruction of human kind and armageddon is ahead of us. the only question is when.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Sionyn

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2011, 06:30:21 pm »
this is how religion appeared and came to be


and then this why it dosen't owe you hope or point of being



richard feynman  put it bluntly as 'if you don't like it go somewhere else, that how it is here'
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 06:46:40 pm by Sionyn »
eecs guy
 

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2011, 06:34:23 pm »
well i sounded like in "holocaust movie" right? :D :P as i have one belief, we should keep our moral intact, for some reason.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Alex

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2011, 06:36:28 pm »
every matter has a beginning or the maker. a circuit board will not just pop up out of nowhere, somebody must created it, the same to plant from seed, information processing start from living thing etc etc, a challege is to find a matter popped out of nowhere (no creator).

According to this thinking process Mecha, God needs to have a creator too. Who created God? Another God? Oh, isn't that against the entire concept of God? Can't you see that you are using God for everything you can't explain, yet?

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i mean whats the point of living if you dont believe in god=afterlife? and what do you care about moral if in the end you will be nothing? if i dont believe in god, what i did in the past and future will be nothing!
my ancestors only told 4 holy books, they are all are, not more not less. you can think of like 1st to 4th edition where each edition is added/ammended in content to cope with human intelligent, comprehensibility and culture during the time. the 4th is the last one we need, nothing more. more than that is nothing but our objection to what god told us, since we think we are too clever. destruction of human kind and armageddon is ahead of us. the only question is when.

For real?  I have agreed with myself what my point is here. It is I that decide why I am here, and not some group of story tellers 2500 years ago? If there is a God, and like I said earlier it would be nice if that is the case, and God agrees with my objectives, fine..all is well. If not, so be it.

Armageddon? The God that 'loves us' will wipe us all out..again? Right? All it will take for us to believe is God kindly making his way here and do a couple of demonstrations. There will be some non-believers still but billions will believe. Nothing more. But no, we are 'evil' and we must forever suffer in hell for not blindly believing. Well, I am ok with Armageddon if that is what he chooses to do, as long as he is present for us to link Armageddon with God. Right?! And why should Armageddon caused by God matter anyway? If God causes the destruction of us all, then we know that God exists as well as afterlife. We can't go wrong in any case.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 06:38:44 pm by Alex »
 


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