Author Topic: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......  (Read 63512 times)

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Offline Zero999

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2011, 06:44:26 pm »
Armageddon? The God that 'loves us' will wipe us all out..again? Right? All it will take for us to believe is God kindly making his way here and do a couple of demonstrations. There will be some non-believers still but billions will believe. Nothing more. But no, we are 'evil' and we must forever suffer in hell for not blindly believing. Well, I am ok with Armageddon if that is what he chooses to do, as long as he is present for us to link Armageddon with God. Right?! And why should Armageddon caused by God matter anyway? If God causes the destruction of us all, then we know that God exists as well as afterlife. We can't go wrong in any case.
Most religions believe in Armageddon of some form or other which is also backed up scientific theory. LOL
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2011, 06:50:04 pm »
i mean whats the point of living if you dont believe in god=afterlife?

Humans have have a surprising and strong tenancy to believe any old crap as long as they think enough other humans believe the same thing. Maybe we evolved with it because for example being told that the hairy thing with big teeth at the front will bite your head off is a lot more efficient than having to find out for yourself.

All religions rely on (or rather abuse) this fault in human nature, they all have mechanisms to increase or at least maintain the number of believers.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2011, 07:03:01 pm »
According to this thinking process Mecha, God needs to have a creator too. Who created God? Another God? Oh, isn't that against the entire concept of God? Can't you see that you are using God for everything you can't explain, yet?
scientist still cannot explain singularity. so who am i to explain god being. as somebody said, i agree, i cannot prove god existence. i dont have a ruler for that. its based on belief, something similar to belief that you can make a circuit working. if i dont believe i can make the circuit, i will not do it in the first place.

Armageddon? The God that 'loves us' will wipe us all out..again? Right? All it will take for us to believe is God kindly making his way here and do a couple of demonstrations.
its written like that and beyond my comprehension. sometime i think human being is like experiment or just some type of matter to be circulated/recycled in the universe. but that kind of imagination is not written anywhere, so i better shut up. even i cannot explain you with concrete believeable evidence of where the soul is located. about the demonstration of armageddon, its already demonstrated in small scale, scientists/historian proved some of them. it is said, thats a warning if human dont listen to god's lesson. but as usual some people believe its just one in many of natural selection, we are free to believe whatever we want to believe.

There will be some non-believers still but billions will believe. Nothing more. But no, we are 'evil' and we must forever suffer in hell for not blindly believing.
every human being are born equal. i'm not saying aethist is evil. its just belief will be different from place to place. and no, we are not meant to be in hell forever, if i believe that, as i said, i better enjoy the world as much as i can. maybe you think moral comes from your own rationale not god, on how we should treat other people with moral etc. but there was once a "Dark age" where rape, killing and slavery cannibalism you name it is a joyfull and acceptable stuffs to do. who do you think brought the way of thinking the way we live today?
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2011, 07:13:10 pm »
and lastly, i believe god created math, and He like odd number! so here we are playing with it until that day.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Alex

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2011, 07:39:44 pm »


Not specific to 'singularity', there are things we can't explain and possibly this will always be the case. But our history on this planet and beyond has tought us that we, eventually, have been able to crack things that were previously thought to be impossible, magical, witchcraft, the work of a god. Why should anything be different? It is not about disproving everything, it is about working with the scenario that is the most likely based on current proof.

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its written like that and beyond my comprehension.

Have you ever tried thinking about it? A non-biased, objective thinking process. About Armaggedon, sure, why not, for the purposes of this discussion we will accept it. Where does God fit in the whole Armaggedon story? Should he not send a letter to claim responsibility, so that we know why we are being 'punished'?!

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every human being are born equal

Depends equal in terms of what?

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maybe you think moral comes from your own rationale not god, on how we should treat other people with moral etc. but there was once a "Dark age" where rape, killing and slavery cannibalism you name it is a joyfull and acceptable stuffs to do. who do you think brought the way of thinking the way we live today?

Sure, if rape is what you (not you) think is right, do it. Many will disagree with you as it causes a lot of pain to others, therefore not accepted by the majority. Yes, it comes from my rationale, because I am rational. I feel that rape is wrong as it causes pain and suffering that is uncalled for. What if God was in favour of rape for reproduction of our kind? Would you do it? Would the woman (I know you are a guy) just stand there for you to rape her just because God says thats the moral thing to do? No, that woman is most likely rational and would not agree with God's definitions.

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who do you think brought the way of thinking the way we live today?
How is that?

God created math? Why is that? You think math is perfect? Hundrends of times users of math have had to modify math to make it work for a certain equation/theory. We have been inventing our own representations like complex numbers to help us depict and work on phenomena. Math is not God's creation, it is one of the most refined and powerful tool the human kind has created.

Hey Mecha, clearly we have different opinions on religion, but there is nothing personal. Just wanted to clarify the obvious.

Can I ask you something Mecha...if God visited us in his throne* here on Earth, would you go and bow in front of him?

*Yeah, like the solid gold thrones decorated with zirconia and other precious stones by the church that cares for the poor and gives one when it has two.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 07:58:28 pm by Alex »
 

Offline ndictu

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2011, 08:05:30 pm »
I just don't understand why you think the god is the christian god. What I mean is, let's say that there is some god. Why do you think your version of god is any better than for example islam. Or, what is wrong with Thor, Zeus and similar ones. The "proof" behind all of these is the same, some old books, legends, myths. Can you tell me how is your version more right?

Also, how many people you know that have become religious in their adult life? Maybe some, I'm sure there are a few people like that, turning to god for some reason, possibly because they are desperate and don't see any other way. But the point is, 99% religious people are brought up in religion. There is no more reason for them to be religious, or to favor a particular religion, other than the fact that they have been born into it. If you were born in say India, you would be most likely hindu. Born in ancient Egypt? Worshiping Ra all day long. Some tribe in jungle? Sacrificing a goat for the magical fireball in the sky.

All I hope for is a good education, teaching skepticism, critical thinking, logic and scientific method. I don't care if you want to spend your Sunday praying. But since the catholic church has so much mass they are messing with stuff they should have no say about, like what is being taught in schools, which scientific experiments are allowed and which are not, who you are allowed to love and marry and much more.

Religion shouldn't be more than a gym. You have your membership, they pay taxes, you go there, do your stuff and leave everyone outside alone. You don't go into McDonalds slapping peoples burgers out of their hands because it "offends you". Wow this is a really bad analogy... I think I had enough for today.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2011, 08:11:35 pm »
i like to view religion as logical thing. yes there should be nothing personal here. we are the same try to unravel the truth yet we still dont have success in achieving. god is known to create imperfect things, for reasons and intentional (the so called imperfect things can actually be defined as perfect, perfect to destory ourself, perfect to multiply ourself or whatever, it depends on your point of view). and i believe god created math perfectly, its just we have not achieve full grasp of it, you name it, complex, matrix, and all the fancy spaces and superset men tried to achieve (or so called invent). its just its not going to be given freely. its the way to mature us, just like you dont want to spoonfeed your child, you just give them pointers and let them find out themselves (and you better hope they are going to believe the pointers you have gave and expect them to comply/inline with your belief).

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Can I ask you something Mecha...if God visited us in his throne* here on Earth, would you go and bow in front of him?
I'll bow Him in afterlife. God will not go down to earth to show His face. if it is, everybody will become believer, and who's going to go to hell? none! hell will become inoperational that way! hell need fuel to burn, and thats us, you like it or not :P

rape is forbidden thats rational. but why fucking a woman (with her consent) is not forbidden? it hurt the first time?! and if you did not do it correctly. and if its according to natural selection, why it hurt? why after all these generations of human kind, there is still a layer of hymen blocking the way? i believe its for some reason its there. let us not into detail of it, maybe its too far. should we discuss nudism? and its origin? :D

@ndictu: there's no christian god, there's no islam god, there's no jew's god. there's only one God, because if they are many, they will kill each other too like us until only one remains. the name of religion is just to differentiate the "versioning" of Holy Books, my logic tells me. or maybe at least to make us able to differentiate, because thats how we communicate, through difference of language/meaning of vocal and writing. we are not given the ability to communicate by thought. if we are, then it will be a lot lot easier to convey god's messages. and again, hell will not be able to operate!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 08:21:46 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Alex

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2011, 08:19:12 pm »
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I'll bow Him in afterlife. God will not go down to earth to show His face. if it is, everybody will become believer, and who's going to go to hell? none! hell will become inoperational that way! hell need fuel to burn, and thats us, you like it or not :P

Hahaha Mecha, come, let me give you a hug.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2011, 08:32:38 pm »
one more last thing. try to throw away every "imperfect" human made rules and regulations ever created on earth. let us live in a world without a rule. then we'll learn the "true nature" of what the natural selection is. god has provided one (rule) its just us who do not listen.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Alex

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2011, 09:01:39 pm »
Oh please tell us what that rule is Mecha! I will tell it to manager so we can live by it and also to that 16 year old girl killed by a falling branch from a tree.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2011, 10:18:33 pm »
Oh please tell us what that rule is Mecha! I will tell it to manager so we can live by it and also to that 16 year old girl killed by a falling branch from a tree.
sadly thats not given for free, even if its laid out in text in front of you. you have to seek it yourself, if you ever have the dream. even myself still struggling to understand the logic ;) and i'm no expert on this and should not talk in great depth, i'm afraid i can be mistaken. and i believe to scientifically study it, the same to the rest of studies, ie will need more than one room sized of writing and tracking down of history. but wait... you can google right? ;)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 10:32:23 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2011, 10:36:32 pm »
I don't understand the "better kill yourself" at all. Actually, people who believe in afterlife should be the ones killing themselves (I'm not suggesting this, just to be clear). They will go to heaven and be happy forever. Atheists, on the other hand, have nothing to look for in death. After you die, that's it.

About that rape, rob and kill thing, I'm assuming (sorry, maybe it's the grammar, maybe I'm just thick) you are talking about atheists not having morals. This is one of the most annoying things to me. If you are saying (as many religious people are) that morals come from bible (10 commandments etc) and atheists are therefore terrible people, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Because I (and millions other atheists) are a good people that don't kill someone because it's wrong. But religious people don't kill someone because bible tells them they can't. At least morals found in an old book are better than none.

The atheists have no morals thing is the oldest argument in their pathetic arsenal, and has been absolutely demolished to death in every sensible debate from here to kingdom come.
Funny how all those people on earth had morals long before all of the holy books came along.
It has been well researched that there are survival advantages to kinship and kindness.

Dave.
 

Offline Vertigo

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2011, 10:40:07 pm »
the root problem here is something atheist share with religious people more often they either of them
will admit;
our apparent unwillingness to accept our own ignorance.

there are questions, where do we come from, are we alone, where do we go when we die, why does michael bay get to keep making movie, etc etc,
to which we will not know the answers in our life time, and perhaps not afterward.
anyone who can accept this has no need for religion of any kind.

no religious person has ever been able to provide me with a reason to believe that was not entirely based on emotion,
and devoid of any real logic.

any religious person here who can provide me with one wins a packet of fresh peyote seeds so that after 20-30 years
when they mature u can have a little shamanic ritual of your own and understand just where the idea of a god comes from
in the first place :P
 

Offline Vertigo

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2011, 10:43:27 pm »


WHY GOD! WHY!!!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2011, 10:45:24 pm »
Today, around here, the soft cushion is caring for nothing, "panem et circenses" is the way to go, until money will finish. Making choices is the difficult thing, so people don't care to believe or not. I largely prefer someone who says to be an atheist, than one saying he's a Catholic and doesn't even know what this means.

For once, I agree with you.

What it means to be a Catholic (or any christian I believe) is generally considered to be found in the Nicene Creed
Here is nice summary of what it says:

We believe in one God.
We believe God made everything.
We believe a virgin gave birth.
We believe Jesus suffered, was crucified, died, and was buried.
We believe Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days.
We believe Jesus ascended into Heaven where he sits at the right hand of God.
We believe Jesus will physically return to judge the living and the dead.
We believe in one Church.
We believe in baptism.
We believe in the forgiveness of "sins"
We believe in the resurrection of the dead.
We believe in everlasting judgement and everlasting life.

If you don't truly believe in all those things, then you are just picking and choosing and might as well go start your own religion and fall into the ever spillaraling trap of having no reliable "holy book" or "word of god", and hence you are just making shit up. (The bible is course is mostly made up, but lets not go there...)
And if you you do believe in all that stuff, then you have to take all the other crap in the bible as truth too. All the real nasty horrible shit in the original edition, and the silly stuff like the talking snake et.al

Dave.
 

Offline Vertigo

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2011, 11:01:27 pm »
actually the bible is not made up.

the problem is really very simple:
all religions as we know them, aside from real screwball cults like scientology, are actually reruns of older religions
in a new context.
when you look at for instance christianity, it can be traced all the way back to the shamanic tribes of scandinavia and
greenland.
thing is it goes back all the way to before written word, to times of only art and oral traditions.
in oral traditions there is allot of anthropomorphism, because if u make a really symbolic story then the words may
change over time and details may get lost, but the essence of the story stays the same.

thus we can still extract the old beliefs of these older traditions, for instance in the life of jesus.
which, incidentally has over 95% of its attributes in common with a whole shopping lists of other religions,
all apparently sharing some of the roots of the traditions.
jesus was:

-born from a virgin at the end of december
-died at a cross
-was resurrected
-etc

apparently so were:

-buddah
-horus
-hercules
-zeus
-coetzalquatl

when we look at the people who worshiped these various deities we see that their beliefs consist mainly of:
astrotheology, shamanism and fertility worship.

so what do we know that all these peoples know about, is important to them, and shares these attributes?
what is truely the oldest religion in the world?

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2011, 11:04:44 pm »
Armageddon? The God that 'loves us' will wipe us all out..again? Right?

Oh, it gets better than that.
Even if you believe, and do all the right things, you have to live in eternal judgement, subservient under god. That sounds like fun.
And because you are human, you are automatically a sinner and doomed to everlasting hell unless you devote your life to god and pray every day for forgiveness.
What a hoot.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2011, 11:11:26 pm »
i mean whats the point of living if you dont believe in god=afterlife?

Humans have have a surprising and strong tenancy to believe any old crap as long as they think enough other humans believe the same thing.

Neurologists (among others?) are now at a point where they think they have an almost complete understanding of how and why we are partial to believe in a god or other authority figure, and what part of the brain is responsible for it.

Of course, the religious use it as evidence of gad having a little part inside all of us etc...

Dave.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2011, 11:15:17 pm »
scientist still cannot explain singularity. so who am i to explain god being.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so said Carl Sagan.
At least science has a theory for something based on some evidence, and works hard to try and fill the gaps in our knowledge.
Religion offers, well, nothing. Just a warm fuzzy, and threats of hell.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2011, 11:27:22 pm »
rape is forbidden thats rational.

Err, then why does the bible itself condone rape? (among many other nasty things)
It does, many times, go read it.
Of course, nobody believes that Old Testament rubbish right? The New Testament is so much better, and obviously must be the correct one, right?
Oh that's right, it's ok to have slaves in the New Testament. I'll take two please!

Dave.

 

Alex

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2011, 11:29:11 pm »
Armageddon? The God that 'loves us' will wipe us all out..again? Right?

Oh, it gets better than that.
Even if you believe, and do all the right things, you have to live in eternal judgement, subservient under god. That sounds like fun.
And because you are human, you are automatically a sinner and doomed to everlasting hell unless you devote your life to god and pray every day for forgiveness.
What a hoot.

Dave.

I wonder if any of the religious participants can tell me if babies that die on birth go to heaven or hell. And who is the one that takes the decision? What if I commit a terrible sin and spend my entire life making up for it? The concept of heaven and hell is digital, whereas life is analog. Who is the one deciding for me and on what basis? Maybe if hell is low on fuel I should go to hell to keep the fireplace going?

To put it like Pease when asked about SPICE, "Where is the trash can?".

Clearly we are beyond the point of a factual debate. It is now up to the big guns (time and peer-pressure) to take over.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 11:30:45 pm by Alex »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2011, 11:30:22 pm »
Funny doco in 10 parts:


Dave.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2011, 11:40:24 pm »
Religion offers, well, nothing. Just a warm fuzzy, and threats of hell.
good people go to good place. bad people go to bad place. thats the promise (empty promise?) what i still dont understand in christian is why there is "new tastement"? why dont stick to "old tastement"? my ancestors told me "new tastement" is a lie made by the "old church" sorry to say christians, thats what i learnt. in the 4th edition, there's a guarantee from god that the 4th edition of holy book will never been tampered by human false statement, ie, the content will not be changed from the original, thats the god's challenge to anybody no matter how nasty they are! thats what i hold until now. but yet, to prove that statement is from god or just by another man will need an extraordinary works. who am i to explain singularity. anyway!... does atheist believe in ghost?

edit: i've made mistake in book order earlier. "torah" is the first book, now hold by jew's. "zabur" 2nd is the lost religion. there's one religion i know but their book is not listed, ie buddha.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2011, 11:48:07 pm »
I wonder if any of the religious participants can tell me if babies that die on birth go to heaven or hell.
neither. thats enough a simple answer. a complete answer will need pages. its written in 4th edition and all its supplementary materials.

..unless you devote your life to god and pray every day for forgiveness...What a hoot.
the analogy is like a boss and workers. any workers who work hard will get better promotion/raise in salary. a hoot?
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Alex

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Re: remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?.......
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2011, 11:50:51 pm »
I wonder if any of the religious participants can tell me if babies that die on birth go to heaven or hell.
neither. thats enough a simple answer. a complete answer will need pages. its written in 4th edition and all its supplementary materials.

So? Where?
 


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