Renesas to buy Altium

[EEVblog]

Kicad taking over Altium is talking nonsense, because no sane big company would use a tool which is core to their business without contractual support.

What is the biggest risk in practice ?

The risk is the manager who approved it gets their arse kicked if something goes wrong and delays the project, there is no one to shout at and blame.
So you end up with standard corporate arse covering rules.

[NF6X]

Good old "nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM".

[EEVblog]

Do we know anything about how much business they have received? Have any companies publicized working with them?

I would assume that's confidential information. They even have an NDA service option.

[NF6X]

Do we know anything about how much business they have received? Have any companies publicized working with them?

I would assume that's confidential information. They even have an NDA service option.

Yeah, that makes sense. I was just hoping there was some knowledge about how much traction they have gotten.

[EEVblog]

Do we know anything about how much business they have received? Have any companies publicized working with them?

I would assume that's confidential information. They even have an NDA service option.

Yeah, that makes sense. I was just hoping there was some knowledge about how much traction they have gotten.

It wouldn't hurt them to put "Used by over 20 major tech companies" or some such broad marketing.
Altium plaster their marketing with key customer logos. They might do a special deal in exchange for the use of the name and logo.

[NF6X]

Once I make my new consulting company public, they can post my logo in exchange for a 25% discount on my KiCad license fees.

[SiliconWizard]

 

[EEVblog]

Once I make my new consulting company public, they can post my logo in exchange for a 25% discount on my KiCad license fees.

Only $300/year for you!

[Smokey]

I wonder what "support" actually gets you.

Like if you find a bug, do you get priority to get that bug fixed?
Do you get priority for a feature request?

[Bud]

There typically several levels of support offered, details are agreed on and written in contracts.

[EEVblog]

I wonder what "support" actually gets you.

Like if you find a bug, do you get priority to get that bug fixed?
Do you get priority for a feature request?

Support Subscription Benefits
First class technical and training support.
Private Technical Support – We help you resolve issues quickly.  As a KiPro subscriber, you have direct access to KiCad developers and support specialists.  Contact us by e-mail, online chat or schedule a call.
Custom Builds – We get you early access to new releases, rapid bug fixes and requested features in binaries that are tailored to your installation.
Guaranteed Bug Fixes – When you report a problem, we don’t close your ticket until you are satisfied with the solution.
Remote Desktop Training – Get access to professional KiCad designers and engineers, right at your desktop.  We can help you achieve your KiCad goals more quickly.
Always open software
With KiPro support, you are creating your IP on a platform that belongs to you.  Even if you no longer use KiPro, you can still use the KiCad suite to open, edit and update designs, with no license hassles.  Ever.

Support where you need it.
Whether you need a bug fixed or help with using a feature, KiPro is here to ensure your success.  We are a one-stop for usage support, bug fixes and feature requests that reflect your needs.

[EEVblog]

There typically several levels of support offered, details are agreed on and written in contracts.

Yes, pay them enough money and I'm sure they even come on site and personally fix your problem.

[delfinom]

Do we know anything about how much business they have received? Have any companies publicized working with them?

I would assume that's confidential information. They even have an NDA service option.

Yeah, that makes sense. I was just hoping there was some knowledge about how much traction they have gotten.

From the look at some lower quantity fabs:

https://twitter.com/AislerHQ/status/1749865111999697000 (Funny EAGLE is still hanging in there but Aisler being German and Germany being the original home of EAGLE is probably a contributor).
https://twitter.com/AislerHQ/status/1749875138756022714

https://twitter.com/oshpark/status/1749531515103666670


But yea commercial customers have no reason to brag or share their usage details


I can say since I'm not involved with KiPro, there's at least one US defense contractor using it and one big multinational defense contractor in at least one department haha.

[NF6X]

I can say since I'm not involved with KiPro, there's at least one US defense contractor using it and one big multinational defense contractor in at least one department haha.

Just between you and me, add at least one more US defense contractor using KiCad (also Altium, also PADS, and still building contracts that were originally laid out on a light table).

[tszaboo]

I wonder what "support" actually gets you.

Like if you find a bug, do you get priority to get that bug fixed?
Do you get priority for a feature request?

They answer questions quite quick. I had engineers send me videos specifically recorded for me explaining a feature or workaround in 2-3 minutes. Often times it's not even because of Altium, but some windows update broke a feature, so they point it out exactly what to do. They resolved all my questions in the past, except: Support for layer stackup for 1 layer boards or metal core PCBs

But the idea that you are throwing 1000 hours at learning KiCAD?  No, I don't believe so.  Most of that effort is getting experienced with a generic PCB layout process, you can apply that to most tools.  KiCAD isn't that different to Altium in its basic operations which is what 90% of your time with the tool is spent doing.

Also, if Altium costs ~$10k to license, plus whatever annual maintenance costs there are, then there is a huge opportunity cost on that licensing fee that a megacorp could save on.  Even if it means sending engineers away for a refresher course on Altium.  We pay our PCB contractor ~$70 USD per hour (GB wages), so such a course would need to take more than 4 weeks to break even (perhaps even more so for an in-house employee.)

A major reason we're not using KiCAD yet is most of our layout work is contracted out and it's hard to find KiCAD PCB engineers.  For us it's too infrequent to justify hiring a full time engineer for PCBs, but a bit too specialised to have that skill in enough in-house engineers.    But as the popularity of the tool grows I imagine this will be less of an issue.

Edit: typo

Right now you would need to do that every time a new engineer starts. Plus you can easily operate an engineering team especially larger ones without having a seat bought for everyone.

Licensing costs can be a good reason to change. It is not unheard of that entire companies switch from one CAD to the other despite going through a learning curve. And realistically, a decent engineer should become productive within 100 hours and proficient within 300 hours of use (and these hours aren't wasted as designs will be made). If somebody needs 1000 hours to learn how to be productive with a piece of software, it is time for that person to switch careers. Also as an engineer you need to think about what that $10k Altium license your boss buys for you could do for you as part of a raise in salary.

Sure, but every time I tried another CAD tool, let it be Eagle, Orcad or even circuit studio, I decided that I would rather stick a fork into my eye than to continue using that tool. It was serious tries, because the company already had license bought, before switching to Altium. Didn't give KiCAD  a serious try yet, I'm not sure I have the time, I rather focus on getting my job done than the software.

[Black Phoenix]

Sure, but every time I tried another CAD tool, let it be Eagle, Orcad or even circuit studio, I decided that I would rather stick a fork into my eye than to continue using that tool. It was serious tries, because the company already had license bought, before switching to Altium. Didn't give KiCAD  a serious try yet, I'm not sure I have the time, I rather focus on getting my job done than the software.

Isn't that common with any kind of software or field?

I'm proficient at Windows because of my background but to be able to learn Linux it took a lot of time (and still today I'm learning new stuff) and it will be a very big while until I get the same level of proficiency as I have with Windows.

Same happens with Adobe Photoshop and Gimp. I've been trying to learn Gimp and heck I quit so many times because it simply I am better at Photoshop and what takes me minutes in Photoshop would take me half an hour in Gimp because I don't know my way around it.

Same as SOLIDWORKS and now trying to migrate to Solid Edge. Although kinda similar I'm still some times frustrated while working with it.

Specially if money is on the line, and speed and effectivebess is needed you go to the tool you are familiar with.

Same reason why big companies as Altium, Adobe, Cadence, Siemens, Dassault and so on have student licences and accords with universities for their students to use their tools, making such users reluctant to later change platforms, forcing companies to have to use the same tools if they want to extract the max productivity of their hired talent.

It takes a lot of self indulgence and persistence of the person to take such a step, and some simply can't for other reasons outside of their own objective of improving.

[nctnico]

Sure, but every time I tried another CAD tool, let it be Eagle, Orcad or even circuit studio, I decided that I would rather stick a fork into my eye than to continue using that tool. It was serious tries, because the company already had license bought, before switching to Altium. Didn't give KiCAD  a serious try yet, I'm not sure I have the time, I rather focus on getting my job done than the software.

Isn't that common with any kind of software or field?

I'm proficient at Windows because of my background but to be able to learn Linux it took a lot of time (and still today I'm learning new stuff) and it will be a very big while until I get the same level of proficiency as I have with Windows.

Same happens with Adobe Photoshop and Gimp. I've been trying to learn Gimp and heck I quit so many times because it simply I am better at Photoshop and what takes me minutes in Photoshop would take me half an hour in Gimp because I don't know my way around it.

Same as SOLIDWORKS and now trying to migrate to Solid Edge. Although kinda similar I'm still some times frustrated while working with it.

Specially if money is on the line, and speed and effectivebess is needed you go to the tool you are familiar with.

That is relative. A couple of years ago I had to switch to Orcad Allegro for PCB design as their other tool (Orcad Layout) was no longer supported and ran out of steam for the complexity of the designs I'm working on. Yes, it took quite a bit of time to get familiar with Allegro and there are fundamental differences between the tools but nowadays I'm more productive with Allegro as Orcad Layout. And because Allegro has much more functionality, I can make complex boards quicker as a lot of things are automated. In the end it is just a matter of going through the learning curve.

[EEVblog]

Same reason why big companies as Altium, Adobe, Cadence, Siemens, Dassault and so on have student licences and accords with universities for their students to use their tools, making such users reluctant to later change platforms, forcing companies to have to use the same tools if they want to extract the max productivity of their hired talent.

This is the only reason why Altium survived all the crazy stuff it did that pissed off almost every customer. Once you know a tool intimately like Altium, you stick with it forever unless other external forces force you to change.

[SiliconWizard]

Yep, that's a very effective marketing strategy.

[M4trix]

Hmm...up to date version is 24.2.2 Build 26. My crystal ball is suggesting me to keep it as a backup. Better safe than sorry. 

[EEVblog]

Chris and I yapping on for an hour about the acquisition:
https://theamphour.com/659-altium-acquired/

[Smokey]

Chris and I yapping on for an hour about the acquisition:
https://theamphour.com/659-altium-acquired/

WTF!  No PCAD love in the history?  
(Altium killed my favorite layout software ...)

[nctnico]

Same reason why big companies as Altium, Adobe, Cadence, Siemens, Dassault and so on have student licences and accords with universities for their students to use their tools, making such users reluctant to later change platforms, forcing companies to have to use the same tools if they want to extract the max productivity of their hired talent.

This is the only reason why Altium survived all the crazy stuff it did that pissed off almost every customer. Once you know a tool intimately like Altium

Another thing that seems to stick with Altium is the idea that it is cheaper compared to the high-end competition. Nowadays Altium is twice as expensive when compared to Orcad though.

[NF6X]

You know what? Protel for Windows was the first PCB layout software I ever used, back in the 90s. Can I count myself as an honorary Altium user after all?

I've never used PCAD, but a classmate of mine who worked as a consultant (he was somewhat older, and was getting a bachelor's degree so he could charge more) was a PCAD user.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Chris and I yapping on for an hour about the acquisition:
https://theamphour.com/659-altium-acquired/

WTF!  No PCAD love in the history?  
(Altium killed my favorite layout software ...)

Killed but still perfectly useable - I still use PCAD2006 every day. Fortunately later Windows versions haven't broken it and it's extremely stable.
I've had it since it was called Accel ( formerly Tango). I did try Altium when they took it over, but quickly started to hate it & told the sales rep I wasn't interested even if it was a free upgrade. I had the limited 6 layer/400 part version, but when they refused to sell me a license for the full version I found a code online, so screw you Altium!
It was a great example of a tool that does just one job really well - the reason I bought it in the first place is that it had clearly been written from scratch using Windows conventions, and not inheriting stuff from old tools that had roots in DOS days.

You can in principle import PCAD to Altium, though it took my customer a couple of days to fix up a complex board with blind vias to be useable in Altium.