Author Topic: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home  (Read 9028 times)

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Offline ebastler

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #75 on: July 04, 2022, 06:21:28 am »
I suspect any motion in the underground cables is damped by the earth's mass pretty quickly.

Exceptions would apply if they run close to structural members, for instance if a transformer pad was on the same pad as your building foundation.  I think that would be pretty odd, but some larger apartment complexes have their own mini substation/transformer inside them for residences.   And, in busy/dense urban areas they tend to build substations into similar looking properties, e.g. there are some of these in London that hide infrastructure for the Underground.

I think it's important to make measurements of any noise before assuming this is the cause though.  I'm still reasonably convinced this is psychosomatic -- that doesn't make it any less real to you but it means you won't fix it with a physical change unfortunately.

Transformers might be a different matter than cables. Transformers are designed to create a large magnetic field in their cores, and magnetostriction can translate that into mechanical vibration.

But the fundamental frequency for such vibrations would be 100 Hz -- hardly infrasound, biut well in the audible range. One might hear that frequency (and we all have, from small transformers, especially when they are not mounted well and transmit noise further). But it's hard to envision a scenario where one would feel the vibrations, and especially where one could feel them but without clearly hearing them too.
 
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #76 on: July 04, 2022, 09:30:55 am »
@lxmute, I sympathize with you and can relate to some extend.

In your quest to find the root of the problem you might find it, but keep in mind that when you are the only one experiencing it, getting a solution will not be simple. If it turns out to be a transformer station and you are the only complainer it is most likely nothing will be done about it. Then moving is the only option.

If it is something within yourself, then you might never find the root and then moving will not help either.

The latter is what I'm most likely experiencing. I'm diagnosed by exclusion with "chronic fatigue syndrome" with an emphasis on "fibromyalgia" which is a muscle disorder. For already twelve years now I'm also suffering from a "background hum" like a stationary tractor running next to the house. Sometimes it is louder then other times or even not there at all and the last couple of years I also feel small tremors that seem to coincide at the same frequency. Since I experience this everywhere I go and it disappears for a while when I take a warm bath, I'm pretty sure it is my own body causing it. For these symptoms there are no solutions found yet.

Boils down to that I just have to learn to live with it. I'm happy to still be able to do things like walking and small jobs around the house and my electronics hobbies. Others with this CFS disorder are wheelchair or bed bound.

My advise, do not obsess on it or it might drive you mad.

Offline Kasper

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2022, 06:09:45 pm »
[...]
In your quest to find the root of the problem you might find it, but keep in mind that when you are the only one experiencing it, getting a solution will not be simple. If it turns out to be a transformer station and you are the only complainer it is most likely nothing will be done about it. Then moving is the only option.
[...]

I agree.  If you can't find a lot of other people complaining about it then it is very unlikely you can do anything about it.  Even if you find a lot of complainers and figure out the problem and prove it is the problem and come up with a reasonable solution, it will still be very difficult to apply the solution.

If you move, you could find a bigger problem that affects more people and solve that instead.  And you'll probably be a better problem solver at the new home since it'll be easier to think clearly.
 

Offline lxmuteTopic starter

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2022, 02:59:18 pm »
Hello,

Big change happened this week. The Grid company made unwarned shutdown campaign on many transformers of the city during the night. I was already awaken by the stress by 4 AM. My PSU went ringing at around 5 AM. I had a 10min downtime. During that period all the stress vanished. My piezo sensors continued to record, some big changes, lowering all the noisy signal to nothing.
At morning a lot of citizens complained on facebook about hours of shutdown in their neighborhoods.
Asking them, the technical office of the city, told me that an exceptional operation of cuts on the transformers took place, in order to determine the source of a cabling defect.
A citizen told me he wasn't wired until 13PM and saw the Grid operators work on his transformer. Problem, that transformer is located 3km away from me.

Since I feel everything just different. Since, my infrasonic sensor stopped showing over-saturated patterns.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2022, 04:48:14 pm »
Sadly you still have not eliminated the psychosomatic incidence.  You knew about the power cut. 

Do you have trouble sleeping elsewhere?

Before you spend hundreds of euros more - maybe rent a hotel for one night near your home and one further away and note the quality of your sleep.  I appreciate you know that you're somewhere else but you can try and see if you sleep more comfortably.

Ask a friend to sleep over when you're away and report any symptoms.
 
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Offline JohanH

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2022, 08:19:18 pm »
Problem, that transformer is located 3km away from me.


Not a "problem". Some weird fault in the network could affect the whole neighborhood. I can't bother reading the thread again, but did anyone ever put an oscilloscope on the electrical signal? If there were bad disturbances or phase shifts, it could in theory cause machinery doing weird stuff, causing even more disturbances. It is beyond me, though, how a human could detect it, but it sounds like in this case it has also caused physical disturbing phenomena, like vibration, infrasound or some such.
 
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Offline lxmuteTopic starter

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2022, 10:51:28 pm »
At the moment I just feel good *again* in my home. Standing on the floor doesn't provide any stress. Which is my only goal in this weird story.  It feels "empty" of something that became a "daily dose" during 4 years. Watching again RaspiBoom datas tonight, I'm prone to confirm everything's changed.

As someone wrote earlier, a trouble miles away can emerge at a particular spot. Maybe some sort of "barycentric" equilibrium between transformers like I asked about. I'm not qualified enough on high power domain and tricks to judge.
Anyway.. I really really really hope the current working state will remain stable.
I just feel some slight shake at my desk (what I would qualify as "transient noise" feeling), 2 meters and a wall near of the bend of 3x3-phase cables.

For the tip about renting a place elsewhere. I experienced same feeling, with slight differences 5km away. It was starting 5AM. I experienced it 300km away as well, 30m near of a transformer, 1st floor, but slept well in that same city, in another hotel, 10km north, 6th floor. This sensibility is like a 6th sense.
last singularity: In my garden I have 2 desert tortoises. Then are older than me. Over those 4 years I saw them behave differently than 42 years before. I saw them tense, sleeping in places in the garden where they had never slept before, letting themselves be exposed to the weather in the middle of winter when they were protecting themselves before to hibernate. Letting their legs hang out of the shell while they never did that. In the end, very close to what I was trying to produce myself in my habitat.
Weirdy.. not that weird to my experience.

So what should I conclude ? Some dumbass contractor plugged a 3 phase cable into the ground and it was just leaking during 4 years? Arriving by a vein of water in the moats of my medieval district? Is it possible ? Since I'm not on the side of the Grid Company's knowledge, I can just formulate an hypothesis. The shutdowns and operations recently made, semt to solve the problem.  :-+ :-+ :-+
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 11:14:21 pm by lxmute »
 

Offline lxmuteTopic starter

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2023, 03:23:16 pm »
Hello,
some fair amount of time have passed. I wanted to gather what I consider to be important facts before going further on that (somehow extra-)ordinary topic.

I recently had a talk with an electronic engineer, he gave a look at my building, and noticed a fundamental and problematic fact: the three-phase cable from power company touches my building gutter, made of zinc-galvanized steel.
Taking a EF meter, and scanning the gutter, I have E field going up to 350V/m. If I take the gutter on the opposite side of the building, E's right at 0V/m.

I went further also with audio microphone, infrasounds, and seismic sensors, getting phased recordings. Some B+A.sin(w.t) sinewave close to 25Hz.
Taking a BPM app, tapping on it in rythm to the feeling of spikes, reversing the BPM, I end up with 0.83Hz frequency. I have just graphical view of that wave, yes I should dig further into data analytics and numpy to find the exact values, but it would mean I'm flickering between 25Hz (+/- 1Hz) and 25.83Hz. I have scanned all acoustic footprints of my devices at home and find nothing corresponding to that 25Hz device.

Could it be a link between both of them ? Lorentz force is able to move cables. What would be the power going through a cable to mark a slightly micro vibration ?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 10:37:03 pm by lxmute »
 

Online tom66

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2023, 03:44:31 pm »
[..] 
I recently had a talk with an electronic engineer, he gave a look at my building, and noticed a fundamental and problematic fact: the three-phase cable from power company touches my building gutter, made of tin.
Taking a EF meter, and scanning the gutter, I have E field going up to 350V/m. If I take the gutter on the opposite side of the building, E's right at 0V/m. [..]

If you actually had an E-field of 350V/m, this would be comparable to standing next to an operational television transmitter.  You would suffer generally serious side effects, far beyond some quality of sleep issues.  I suspect your meter is faulty or you are misreading it.

Did the engineer concur with your measurement... and are they a qualified engineer?
 
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Offline JohanH

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2023, 04:21:42 pm »
In general, metal pipes and other metal structures in a building should be grounded by connecting them to a common ground point (usually at or nearby the incoming electrical service panel), which is connected to a ground rod. Not many connect objects such as gutters and roof (might be different legislation in different countries also), but it is beneficial that every metal object is grounded. If it's done as a lightning conductor, roof and gutters should have copper cable into the ground in each corner of the house, that is then connected to a common ring around the house. If it's for grounding in general, they should be connected to the common point where the house otherwise has it's main incoming electrical panel and ground rod. This way there will be no induced electrical fields in the metal objects.
 
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Offline lxmuteTopic starter

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2023, 10:24:04 am »
Did the engineer concur with your measurement... and are they a qualified engineer?
Watching my building on StreetView, he pointed me the fact the cable was in contact with the gutter, which I confirmed after eye-checking. So on this remark, I had the curiosity to point an E.B meter at the gutter. And renewed it multiple times under a weekly frame.

If you actually had an E-field of 350V/m, this would be comparable to standing next to an operational television transmitter.
I've ordered a Trifield TF2 to compare those figures, made with a "Mustool MT525". It's the low cost reader okay. It seems correct while pointing it at all devices sucking E in the home.

You would suffer generally serious side effects, far beyond some quality of sleep issues.  I suspect your meter is faulty or you are misreading it.
Concerning body troubles I wanted to stay kinda silent on it, not liking to complain like cub and my view on the topic being a technical seek.. but let's go with what I experienced growing throughout months:
By instance, when sitting at my Desktop to work, I feel micro deformation of the position of the skeleton due to some constant feeling of stress. I switched for a new chair without change. Once this feeling of displacement in place in my skeleton, I have to do some karate stretching to get it back on track. Ok wrong position and body misplacement is a normal topic.. But I never had such experience, and got a fluid body because of karate practice.
Acoustic problems like tinnitus that vanish after like 4/5 hours away in the countryside.
High concentration problems to produce code or write an article without chopping words when earlier I was switching between C, C#, Java, Unix Administration in all directions without a pain.
Last but not least, neck pain both sides, cerebellar pain on left side. Cables are left of me while sitting at desk. I should swap rooms, but swapping bathroom and lab room is heh..

I will have a question, having not enough knowledge concerning RF levels and power levels involved to be harmful for the human. Can this 400V 3 phase cable that overlays G3 alliance PLC signal, harmonics, and all kind of noise from multiple neighbors be harmful in terms of EMI emissions ? Shorter question, where can I find information, warnings, scientific datas about emission levels and recommendations on VLF/LF/MF antennas ?
I plugged a KiwiSDR with a 5kHz-30mHz antenna in the living room, distant from this cable by about 8 meters and the spectrum is totally jammed on the 5-500kHz.  ( https://imgur.com/a/RIXIAng )
Like with the "Mustool vs TriField", I'm in the process of ordering a quality-certified antenna.. buying cheap is buying twice...


Not many connect objects such as gutters and roof (might be different legislation in different countries also), but it is beneficial that every metal object is grounded. If it's done as a lightning conductor, roof and gutters should have copper cable into the ground in each corner of the house, that is then connected to a common ring around the house. If it's for grounding in general, they should be connected to the common point where the house otherwise has it's main incoming electrical panel and ground rod. This way there will be no induced electrical fields in the metal objects.
I will follow your wise advise concerning the grounding. Cablemonkey tasks in list... On that point, in November I went rappelling on my roof to install Starlink, and I had the same weird stress growing, while sitting peaceful the instant before. The roof is a 5% angle top made of following layers: wood structure, zinc, tar.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 10:54:45 am by lxmute »
 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2023, 06:37:52 am »
"renewed it multiple times under a reviewed frame..."

Aww OK, that's it. You verbalize, or half-verbalize a little trickle of 'new' info, containing several more half-described issues, but never really answer a direct question; always with some more half-coherent info.

   Basically, stating that 'other' places don't do whatever you complain about; PROBLEM SOLUTION SOLVED!
You just need to go elsewhere.

   Move to some other place.  Done.
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2023, 08:37:31 am »
Remotely diagnosing personal issues is even more questionable than remotely diagnosing technical problems. Nevertheless, let me venture this: You should be open to the possibility that you have an obsessive/compulsive problem here.

I think the solution is more likely to be along the lines of behavior therapy, than by forming a series of "scientific" hypotheses based on forum advice and Youtube videos, buying more measurement equipment, and making technical changes to your home.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. I am genuinely trying to be helpful, and think you are barking up the wrong tree.
 
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Offline arcfault

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Re: Request for knowledge - Troubles at home
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2023, 04:55:42 am »
This is quite the interesting thread. Any update, OP?
 


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