Author Topic: Resistance Of Reviews  (Read 2104 times)

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Online mc172

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2020, 01:03:00 am »
I don't think it's a fear of having their inventions stolen - I think it's a fear of their level of incompetence becoming exposed. Honestly, none of us design anything perfectly and external opinion always brings up the question "why did you do that?" - but people don't generally like these conversations. I do, because it ultimately improves the efficiency of the design, but as a result I'm considered to be a weirdo. This is a social norms problem - currently it's considered funny to say "I'm bad at maths" in the context of, say, figuring out mentally, 100 divided by 4.
Also, I find that a lot of people holding the positions they do in companies are largely incompetent. I have a fair amount of experience of working for so-called experts and/or high up people who really know how to cost the company money in re-tooling etc. through sheer incompetence. Yet when I spend a few hours to use modern simulation tools to validate designs, I receive criticism for "wasting time", yet I didn't need to re-tool my design at a cost of 50x(+) the simulation time.

I actually think it's in part down to the generation of people that I find myself working for. I really hate to say it but the "boomer" generation are currently running the top tier positions in companies, and the "millennials" are the workforce. I have worked in three different companies where the reviews have been either rushed, not conducted properly (i.e. yeah yeah that's minor detail, not my problem, i'm not interested) or missed entirely, where the decision makers could be considered to be "boomers".
 
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Online exe

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2020, 09:32:04 am »
My experience is that it's enough to have two opinionated and conflicting people in a large team to significantly slow down decision-making process or even lead the project into the crisis. If it's only one person, then it's sort of works because others avoid conflict. But two persons may argue infinitely. My observation after talking to such people is that they always blame somebody else for delays and failures.

> "boomer" generation are currently running the top tier positions in companies, and the "millennials" are the workforce

My observation too, although it's starting to change. At least in IT. I think it's a good thing, and we, boomers, need to adjust.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2020, 11:55:42 pm »
I know it's popular to bash on millennials and some of the stereotypes are based on truth, but I think it's worth remembering that the first round of millennials are in their early 40s now, they're mid-career, many have families of their own, some of their offspring are young adults themselves at this point. They're not all a bunch of lazy kids who have no idea how to live.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2020, 02:08:51 am »
I still don't know for sure what we call "millenials". Some people like you refer to them as people possibly in their 40s now, but many think of them as young adults. Point is, are they people who were teens/young adults in the early 2000's, or are they people BORN around that time? I tend to use the latter definition myself, but really I don't know. It's such a catch-all word. ::)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2020, 04:45:00 am »
From Wikipedia:
"Millennials, also known as Generation Y (or simply Gen Y), are the demographic cohort following Generation X and preceding Generation Z. Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with 1981 to 1996 a widely accepted defining range for the generation. "

Millennials *were* teens/young adults when the term (and stereotypes) became popular but that was ~20 years ago, people don't stay teenagers forever.
 

Offline engrguy42

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2020, 11:10:35 am »
Just stumbled on this thread and thought I'd add my 2 cents...  :D

As someone who has been around people for many decades, there's one thing I've learned about people:

Never, ever, EVER challenge, correct, or criticize anyone. Ever.

Why?

Ego. Few will admit it, but we are all, for the most part, driven primarily by egos and our feelings. It feels good to boost our egos, and it feels incredibly painful to hurt our egos. Some more than others, but for the vast majority of us protecting our egos is on the top of our list of important stuff.

And truth be told, the vast majority of tech (and other) discussions boil down to egos. I'm smarter than you. That's it.

And since, by definition, suggesting something like that will hurt peoples' egos, most people will absolutely freak out when they read that. Or say it's just the other guy who's that way. But that's just further proof that it's true.

Psychologists have known that it's true since the beginning of time, but it's one of those things that's too painful to discuss. Or admit.

Personally, I know I'm that way, but I've also learned enough to realize that, after more than 45 years as an electrical engineer, I don't know nothin'. Always learning, every day. So when someone disagrees with or challenges me, it initially hurts, but I also realize they may be right and it might be a chance to learn something. Of course, they may also just be trying to protect their egos and prove they're smarter by saying some irrelevant tech factiods, but anyway...  :D

So as my signature says, the smartest people are those who know enough to finally realize "hey, there's a TON out there that I have no clue about".

Coincidentally, I just saw an ad with Neil deGrasse Tyson where he said something like:

"One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong".

Oh, and another well known but never discussed (and related) topic is:

"People believe what they want to believe. Facts are irrelevant". And as a psych professor buddy told me years ago, "and that especially applies to technical folks like scientists and engineers". 
 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 11:29:46 am by engrguy42 »
- The best engineers know enough to realize they don't know nuthin'...
- Those who agree with you can do no wrong. Those who disagree can do no right.
- I'm always amazed at how many people "already knew that" after you explain it to them in detail...
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2020, 01:10:59 am »
Just stumbled on this thread and thought I'd add my 2 cents...  :D

As someone who has been around people for many decades, there's one thing I've learned about people:

Never, ever, EVER challenge, correct, or criticize anyone. Ever.

Why?

Ego. Few will admit it, but we are all, for the most part, driven primarily by egos and our feelings. It feels good to boost our egos, and it feels incredibly painful to hurt our egos. Some more than others, but for the vast majority of us protecting our egos is on the top of our list of important stuff.

And truth be told, the vast majority of tech (and other) discussions boil down to egos. I'm smarter than you. That's it.

And since, by definition, suggesting something like that will hurt peoples' egos, most people will absolutely freak out when they read that. Or say it's just the other guy who's that way. But that's just further proof that it's true.

Psychologists have known that it's true since the beginning of time, but it's one of those things that's too painful to discuss. Or admit.

Personally, I know I'm that way, but I've also learned enough to realize that, after more than 45 years as an electrical engineer, I don't know nothin'. Always learning, every day. So when someone disagrees with or challenges me, it initially hurts, but I also realize they may be right and it might be a chance to learn something. Of course, they may also just be trying to protect their egos and prove they're smarter by saying some irrelevant tech factiods, but anyway...  :D

So as my signature says, the smartest people are those who know enough to finally realize "hey, there's a TON out there that I have no clue about".

Coincidentally, I just saw an ad with Neil deGrasse Tyson where he said something like:

"One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong".

Oh, and another well known but never discussed (and related) topic is:

"People believe what they want to believe. Facts are irrelevant". And as a psych professor buddy told me years ago, "and that especially applies to technical folks like scientists and engineers". 
 

you can kill a company or product that way with a bad release. you are lucky to have vigilant managers
 

Offline basinstreetdesign

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2020, 01:45:27 am »
Never, ever, EVER challenge, correct, or criticize anyone. Ever.

There is no excuse for this attitude.  Mother nature is not very forgiving so we better be willing to let an error of ours be revealed.  It benefits everybody in the company that an error in the design of some gizmo be corrected sooner rather than later.

If I was in charge of some group and that attitude was displayed before me by some misguided soul then I would make sure that that person was promptly corrected.  Furthermore I would see to it that that person would not be responsible for any critical part of a project until it was clear that his attitude was different.

I have always feared and enjoyed peer reviews of my designs for two reasons.  First, I fear that several mistakes would be pointed out to my chagrin and, two, I hoped that my design may be met with approval to my pride.  There are few moments in your career than when your betters or equals applaud your work.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 01:49:06 am by basinstreetdesign »
STAND BACK!  I'm going to try SCIENCE!
 
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Online ebastler

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2020, 08:10:22 am »
As someone who has been around people for many decades, there's one thing I've learned about people:
Never, ever, EVER challenge, correct, or criticize anyone. Ever.

That may tell something about the "people" you interact with, but I'm afraid it also tells a lot about you.

If you have not figured out how to give constructive feedback in a way that does not sour relationships, that's a pity, because a lot of your knowledge and experience goes unused. It must also be immensely frustrating to you to know of better solutions, but not be able to bring them into the discussion?
 
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Offline engrguy42

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2020, 11:21:13 am »
As someone who has been around people for many decades, there's one thing I've learned about people:
Never, ever, EVER challenge, correct, or criticize anyone. Ever.

That may tell something about the "people" you interact with, but I'm afraid it also tells a lot about you.

If you have not figured out how to give constructive feedback in a way that does not sour relationships, that's a pity, because a lot of your knowledge and experience goes unused. It must also be immensely frustrating to you to know of better solutions, but not be able to bring them into the discussion?

I think you completely missed my point. I always challenge, correct, and criticize people. Like I did with the post you're referencing. I criticized the general population for having incredibly fragile egos.

When I say "never do it", what I mean is "never do it unless you're willing to suffer wrath and rage and personal attacks".

My point is that people HATE it. And they get FURIOUS when you do it. In fact, in my many years as an engineer and engineering manager I had to learn the "proper" way to challenge, correct, and criticize people without upsetting them. There's even training for managers showing how to do it.

And one of the responses people have to criticism (like the criticism in my previous post) is they lash out at the one who's doing the criticizing.  :D

Have you never read any tech discussions?  :D
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 11:23:28 am by engrguy42 »
- The best engineers know enough to realize they don't know nuthin'...
- Those who agree with you can do no wrong. Those who disagree can do no right.
- I'm always amazed at how many people "already knew that" after you explain it to them in detail...
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2020, 11:38:36 am »
To flip it the other way, if a lot of money is riding on something your designing, do you want your head on the pike?, or a few reviewers between you and the pike?,

That is my approach, I am constantly paranoid because where I work, I get no opportunity, I am forced to record decisions by other people in the projects to give myself some buffer from incidents. to prevent that wrong measurement or spec sent to me, ending with the boss saying I just wasted $50K on incorrect parts.

This is the other side of the coin, and what makes people set there ego aside as they can avoid a punishment of some kind. at least in my own opinion.

I have trained people who felt they could do no wrong and never asked for second opinions on things that cannot be easily un-done, they did not tend to stay employed past a year, as eventually they made a mistake too big to ignore, instead of asking for help, made it worse, and had spiraled out of control when we finally became aware of it. this was not what did them in, rather is was when they did not learn the lesson from the first time.

I suppose this is why in low or un-reviewed companies you end up with engineers demanding written specifications from customers, as it leaves that level of separation if things are not designed to fit the task. where as in a highly reviewed environment like software writing where you usually have usability testing and A/B trials, its much looser because things will be caught and corrected, and the cost to implement the change is lower than something physical with a 3-6 week lead time.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2020, 01:05:57 pm »
To flip it the other way, if a lot of money is riding on something your designing, do you want your head on the pike?, or a few reviewers between you and the pike?,

That is my approach, I am constantly paranoid because where I work, I get no opportunity, I am forced to record decisions by other people in the projects to give myself some buffer from incidents. to prevent that wrong measurement or spec sent to me, ending with the boss saying I just wasted $50K on incorrect parts.
Where I'm involved in management I try to create a positive atmosphere where people work together, look at eachother's work and people are not afraid to own a mistake. In the end it helps to get good teamwork going. It is not easy because finger pointing is a quick way out. However nobody ever got better from finger pointing. The (end) customer certainly doesn't care how & why something failed. They just want a working product.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 01:11:24 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Resistance Of Reviews
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2020, 03:55:56 pm »
I think you completely missed my point. I always challenge, correct, and criticize people.

Yes, I apparently did. Sorry about that, I didn't indend to presume anything. But to be honest, I still can't quite reconcile your statement above with the earlier one you made -- I must have missed the irony in the earlier post?

As someone who has been around people for many decades, there's one thing I've learned about people:
Never, ever, EVER challenge, correct, or criticize anyone. Ever.

 


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