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Retracting my prior statements on "CTY", that CTY is gone

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ebastler:

--- Quote from: SerieZ on July 29, 2020, 09:05:14 am ---I think the lack of Integrity an Organization displays is definitely a hint on the Quality of the Program they offer.
If they thought about it to discriminate in such a way in the selection of scholarship, where else do they discriminate? And if they did not think about it, where else do they lack effort?
That is as I think the whole point of his Objection to that Organization and as I see it a 100% Valid one.

--- End quote ---

You are essentially paraphrasing "I hate their guts", right?  ::)
I hear your argument, although I don't share your point of view.

SerieZ:

--- Quote from: ebastler on July 29, 2020, 09:13:54 am ---
--- Quote from: SerieZ on July 29, 2020, 09:05:14 am ---I think the lack of Integrity an Organization displays is definitely a hint on the Quality of the Program they offer.
If they thought about it to discriminate in such a way in the selection of scholarship, where else do they discriminate? And if they did not think about it, where else do they lack effort?
That is as I think the whole point of his Objection to that Organization and as I see it a 100% Valid one.

--- End quote ---

You are essentially paraphrasing "I hate their guts", right?  ::)
I hear your argument, although I don't share your point of view.

--- End quote ---

I never applied to that program and it is the first time I heard of it.
Maybe instead of attacking people and claiming they hate someone you should go after the argument you clearly do not understand or do not want to understand.

tooki:

--- Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2020, 10:38:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 28, 2020, 08:06:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2020, 10:56:50 am ---
Unless you are a while male, right?
Come on, you know what what they mean here.
If you want do that and it's not public money, fine, do that. But don't pretend it's equally of opportunity because it is not.
Example: Two kids in the same poor street, with the same income levels, went to the same school. got the same grades, both want it the same etc. But one is black, the other is white. By the sounds of it the white kid can't even apply for this scholarship.
Heck, the two kids in this example could even be from the same home.
Whatever this is, it's not equally of opportunity by definition, it is deliberately excluding "overrepresented groups".



--- Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2020, 08:00:14 am ---

--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---I think you would find that you would get more under-represented groups if you did this - so there'd be more minorities and yes, poor white families too.
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure that if you are a poor white male, you don't meet the requirements of this scholarship. You don't even have a chance.

--- End quote ---
It could be. But since it seems there’s other financial aid types too (and that poor whites nonetheless do not share all the disadvantages that blacks and Native Americans have), I don’t think this is necessarily bad.

--- End quote ---

Yep, that's the way it sounds, white kids not eligible. Still think it's equality of opportunity?.

--- End quote ---
Dave, with all due respect, when it comes to issues like this, you have a privileged, myopic view. You don’t know anywhere near enough about how systemic racism in USA plays out to be able to defend the strong positions you hold.
--- End quote ---

Your refusal to answer the question is duly noted.
It was rhetorical anyway, I know your answer. And I will not be baited. And you don't have a clue about my upbringing, and you are wrong that I don't understand. Don't bother replying, I'll ignore you, I know what you are like on this topic.


--- End quote ---
If you’d bothered to actually read my reply, you’d know that I did answer your question. So you were clearly ignoring me already.

But yeah, your ongoing rigid position tells me that you definitely don’t understand.

And I wasn’t baiting. That you consider a well considered challenge to your position as “baiting” just proves that you neither understand the issue nor care to understand it. I challenged you to be open minded and humble, but you’ve just dug in your heels, reinforcing that you are just totally oblivious to the issues.

tooki:

--- Quote from: Rick Law on July 28, 2020, 10:08:26 pm ---
tooki

Perhaps it is because I am a minority.  I  keenly understand that whenever judgement is made using factors other than merit, it leaves room for it to be unfair.  What I like to see is: when only merit counts, than other factors by definition are excluded.

--- End quote ---
It’s not “judgment” to have eligibility requirements for a scholarship. You still haven’t grasped that there’s a massive difference between the eligibility requirements for the program and the eligibility requirements for the scholarship.


--- Quote from: Rick Law on July 28, 2020, 10:08:26 pm ---tooki
By the way, I wish you have lived in poor white neighborhood also.  You will find the same problems you found in Baltimore.  Drugs, single parent households, crime...  It did happen to poor black neighborhoods earlier than it did to poor white neighborhoods, so it is more ingrained.  I will grant you that.  But it hardly matters to those living in it now.  The hopelessness is the same.

--- End quote ---
I didn’t live in any poor black neighborhoods in Baltimore, I never claimed such. But that you think I think the problems you enumerate are what the problems are just shows that we aren’t talking about the same things. Those are some outcomes of the systemic racism. But they’re not the only ones, and above all, the systemic racism hasn’t gone away, so to repeat what I explained to Dave, a black kid and white kid whose circumstances are identical other than race still won’t have the same opportunities in the end.

So to indulge your whataboutism, yes, poor whites also face lots of challenges, and we need to address those, too. But the question here is about a scholarship restricted to “historically underrepresented” groups, not about all poor people.

Rick Law:

--- Quote from: tooki on July 29, 2020, 03:33:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: Rick Law on July 28, 2020, 10:08:26 pm ---
tooki

Perhaps it is because I am a minority.  I  keenly understand that whenever judgement is made using factors other than merit, it leaves room for it to be unfair.  What I like to see is: when only merit counts, than other factors by definition are excluded.

--- End quote ---
It’s not “judgment” to have eligibility requirements for a scholarship. You still haven’t grasped that there’s a massive difference between the eligibility requirements for the program and the eligibility requirements for the scholarship.


--- Quote from: Rick Law on July 28, 2020, 10:08:26 pm ---tooki
By the way, I wish you have lived in poor white neighborhood also.  You will find the same problems you found in Baltimore.  Drugs, single parent households, crime...  It did happen to poor black neighborhoods earlier than it did to poor white neighborhoods, so it is more ingrained.  I will grant you that.  But it hardly matters to those living in it now.  The hopelessness is the same.

--- End quote ---
I didn’t live in any poor black neighborhoods in Baltimore, I never claimed such. But that you think I think the problems you enumerate are what the problems are just shows that we aren’t talking about the same things. Those are some outcomes of the systemic racism. But they’re not the only ones, and above all, the systemic racism hasn’t gone away, so to repeat what I explained to Dave, a black kid and white kid whose circumstances are identical other than race still won’t have the same opportunities in the end.

So to indulge your whataboutism, yes, poor whites also face lots of challenges, and we need to address those, too. But the question here is about a scholarship restricted to “historically underrepresented” groups, not about all poor people.

--- End quote ---

Well, Mr. Tooki, I respectfully decline to argue with you any further.  Because I think our experiences in life is just too different to share enough mutual understanding at this time.

I think it is good that our views differ.  I strong support diversity of views, but I do not support substituting that for a mere diversity of appearance.  Diversity of appearance ipso facto is superficial.

While I'll keep my view of "When it is pure merit base, all other factors are by definition excluded" is hugely beneficial to minorities and to all.  I understand you have a different view.

I like that you have a different view.  If everyone have the same view, the lack of diversity would make it a very boring world.

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