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Retracting my prior statements on "CTY", that CTY is gone

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ajb:

--- Quote from: Rick Law on July 29, 2020, 08:24:02 pm ---I think it is good that our views differ.  I strong support diversity of views, but I do not support substituting that for a mere diversity of appearance.  Diversity of appearance ipso facto is superficial.
--- End quote ---
Appearance IS superficial, and yet the US is thoroughly plagued by disparities based on skin color.  You cannot solve entrenched systemic racial (or ethnic, or gender) disparities by ignoring them.  Underrepresentation is a stable condition, so to ignore it is to perpetuate it. 


--- Quote ---While I'll keep my view of "When it is pure merit base, all other factors are by definition excluded" is hugely beneficial to minorities and to all.  I understand you have a different view.
--- End quote ---
If you truly care about success being based on merit, then you need to eliminate all of the existing disparities that are NOT based on merit, but based on wealth, family circumstances, race, gender, etc.  These disparities are well supported by evidence, by the way, and are not a matter of opinion.  If you insist on a "meritocracy" that does not first correct existing, non-merit-based disparities, then you are simply perpetuating those disparities, because those disparities have an impact on the "merit" you're measuring, whatever it is. 

tooki:

--- Quote from: ajb on July 29, 2020, 09:12:58 pm ---
--- Quote from: Rick Law on July 29, 2020, 08:24:02 pm ---I think it is good that our views differ.  I strong support diversity of views, but I do not support substituting that for a mere diversity of appearance.  Diversity of appearance ipso facto is superficial.
--- End quote ---
Appearance IS superficial, and yet the US is thoroughly plagued by disparities based on skin color.  You cannot solve entrenched systemic racial (or ethnic, or gender) disparities by ignoring them.  Underrepresentation is a stable condition, so to ignore it is to perpetuate it. 


--- Quote ---While I'll keep my view of "When it is pure merit base, all other factors are by definition excluded" is hugely beneficial to minorities and to all.  I understand you have a different view.
--- End quote ---
If you truly care about success being based on merit, then you need to eliminate all of the existing disparities that are NOT based on merit, but based on wealth, family circumstances, race, gender, etc.  These disparities are well supported by evidence, by the way, and are not a matter of opinion.  If you insist on a "meritocracy" that does not first correct existing, non-merit-based disparities, then you are simply perpetuating those disparities, because those disparities have an impact on the "merit" you're measuring, whatever it is.

--- End quote ---
Thank you! I think you verbalized some of the things that I felt but hadn’t fleshed out.

The other thing I’d add is that, given that this discussion took somewhat of a turn when I posted the equality vs equity cartoon, is that if that cartoon actually attempted to depict racism in USA, it would show people digging out the earth beneath the black kid. (And to be clear, I don’t mean that in the past tense, which would simply be a hole under him. This active undermining is going on right now.)

Rick Law:

--- Quote from: ajb on July 29, 2020, 09:12:58 pm ---
--- Quote from: Rick Law on July 29, 2020, 08:24:02 pm ---I think it is good that our views differ.  I strong support diversity of views, but I do not support substituting that for a mere diversity of appearance.  Diversity of appearance ipso facto is superficial.
--- End quote ---
Appearance IS superficial, and yet the US is thoroughly plagued by disparities based on skin color.  You cannot solve entrenched systemic racial (or ethnic, or gender) disparities by ignoring them.  Underrepresentation is a stable condition, so to ignore it is to perpetuate it. 


--- Quote ---While I'll keep my view of "When it is pure merit base, all other factors are by definition excluded" is hugely beneficial to minorities and to all.  I understand you have a different view.
--- End quote ---
If you truly care about success being based on merit, then you need to eliminate all of the existing disparities that are NOT based on merit, but based on wealth, family circumstances, race, gender, etc.  These disparities are well supported by evidence, by the way, and are not a matter of opinion.  If you insist on a "meritocracy" that does not first correct existing, non-merit-based disparities, then you are simply perpetuating those disparities, because those disparities have an impact on the "merit" you're measuring, whatever it is.

--- End quote ---

When there is a problem, it is not always productive to hang on to it and orbit it as if it is the center of the universe.  That is the so call "a chip on the shoulder".  It is far more productive to ignore it's particular nature, overcome it, and get the job done anyway.  And you can be damn sure that entrench or not, minorities are as capable as any others in overcoming the problem.

As long as a particular group received additional help to succeed, that particular group is not achieving like other groups, instead, "that particular group achieved like others when helped".  We need to get to "that particular group achieving like others."

I believe it is not a healthy point of view to think that minorities requires additional help to achieve the same goals others can do without help.  In fact, it is a fine line (and I am not accusing anyone here of crossing it, but I do think that is what some of the Hollywood types are doing).   It may make the "help giver" crowd feel better that they are heroes and eager to help, but the end result is holding those minority back by reinforcing the falsehood that they are less able to overcome than others.

As to so called systemic racism holding people back, I will let someone more eloquent do the talking.  Morgan Freeman (a different Hollywood type) addresses the issue on a CNN interview.   This is video is under 3 minutes, topic of interest starts at timemark 01:00 to 02:10.


Since videos are long, in a nut shell, I will transcript (as best I can) what he said: "(@1:00)... [to say that because of racism] you can't pull yourself up, that is bull, just stick you mind to what you want to do and go do it... ...[that believe] is like a religion to me, it is just an excuse... ...[racism] it exists, yeah, it is not like it exist but we refuse to talk about it, that would be a problem; but making it a bigger problem than it needs to be is the problem here."

EDIT: No change, added bold to some text only

EEVblog:
Once people start posting race related Youtube videos, I think it's time to lock the thread.

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