General > General Technical Chat

Right to repair, my problem with it

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Shock:

--- Quote from: Fixed_Until_Broken on July 18, 2021, 10:17:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: rstofer on July 18, 2021, 10:10:29 pm ---In terms of electronic gadgets, I view R2R as the "Louis Rossman Enrichment Act".

--- End quote ---
So your real issue is with a person and not the right to repair.

You have used every technique to deflect or ignore everyone's comments in here that pokes holes in your logic. You are grasping at straws I almost feel like you are trolling at this point.
--- End quote ---

Businesses that are promoting this in the US have the most to gain. Look at the difference between the EU and US legislation proposals. The US proposals aren't even aimed at the consumer at all, it's more about securing access for repair businesses under the guise of consumer protection.

Australia consumer law covers most of these problems. Goods should be safe, lasting and have no faults. This allows protection that exceeds manufacturers minimum and extended warranties (which is essentially sold as insurance). e.g. a $1000 laptop that dies after a year is not exactly "lasting".

Australian consumer law also states that goods have clear title, come with undisturbed possession, are free from any hidden securities or charges. Spare parts and repair facilities are required to be reasonably available for a reasonable period of time (otherwise this needs to be made clear up front).

As not everyone has the skill to perform repairs themselves they will of course seek out third parties or agents if required. Again, it's important that consumers get these rights not just authorized or non authorized agents of the manufacturers.

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: Shock on July 25, 2021, 04:20:48 am ---The US proposals aren't even aimed at the consumer at all, it's more about securing access for repair businesses under the guise of consumer protection.... Again, it's important that consumers get these rights not just authorized or non authorized agents of the manufacturers.

--- End quote ---

You wouldn't know this unless you were involved in or at least followed the issue from its early beginnings, but it is almost the opposite.  Yes, the laws appear to grant the access to independent repairers instead of consumers, but here in the US that is a very loose border.  Early on, one of the scare tactics that OEMs would use was that there were safety and security reasons that would be problematic if 'consumers' could scan their own diagnostic systems or replace their own fuel pumps.  Independent repair shops were the only group that could credibly counter that claim and also the only ones that could plausibly bear the expense of some of the equipment and service information that was required.  I paid many tens of thousands of dollars for online service information and diagnostic equipment at the time as they became available.  That has now trickled down to the consumer, who can generally purchase a wide variety effective, low-cost devices and the service information is also widely available for very low prices.  Most R2R legislation assumes you can't rebuild your own transmission, so your 'right' is to have it rebuilt by a professional of your choosing.  But, if you are so inclined, there would be very little standing in the way of you doing it yourself.

Automotive parts have been available for most common brands without too much difficulty since the beginning of time, AFAIK.  Anyone can walk into most dealerships and purchase almost any part they want.  There can be exceptions, but those are usually for reasons not related to the manufacturer preventing you from doing a repair. 

rsjsouza:

--- Quote from: Shock on July 25, 2021, 04:20:48 am ---Businesses that are promoting this in the US have the most to gain. Look at the difference between the EU and US legislation proposals. The US proposals aren't even aimed at the consumer at all, it's more about securing access for repair businesses everyone under the guise of consumer protection.
--- End quote ---
FTFY. This legislation is for everyone.


--- Quote from: Shock on July 25, 2021, 04:20:48 am ---Australia consumer law covers most of these problems. Goods should be safe, lasting and have no faults. This allows protection that exceeds manufacturers minimum and extended warranties (which is essentially sold as insurance). e.g. a $1000 laptop that dies after a year is not exactly "lasting".
--- End quote ---
I don' t know the situation in Australia, but in the countries I know these are not very enforceable and add a tremendous cost to the final product.
For "safe" there are several things already in place, ranging from the screws on toys' battery compartments up to the ridiculous messages in coffee cups saying the beverage is hot (even California's Prop 65 that states that everything causes cancer). Regardless, an immense amount of products come in boats wrapped in Aliexpress/Banggood wrapping paper - little to no enforcement at all.
For "lasting", this is very vague. A laptop should last three, five or ten years? What about a cellphone that is typically replaced every 2 years? Is there a table per product constantly amended by the legislative branch or an agency?
"No faults" is the less controversial of these issues, but depending on the language used to describe a feature (and translation errors) it can become terribly vague.


--- Quote from: Shock on July 25, 2021, 04:20:48 am ---Spare parts and repair facilities are required to be reasonably available for a reasonable period of time (otherwise this needs to be made clear up front).

--- End quote ---
To me these are the harder wrinkles to solve about the legislation in discussion in this thread. With the advent of internet, parts are "reasonably accessible", but what if there is a shortage like the one we are seeing right now? Will this be considered a fault from the manufacturer? Also, beloved Fluke, Keysight carry replacement parts on their inventories but how long this can be considered reasonable? One, three, ten years after discontinuation of a product?


--- Quote from: Shock on July 25, 2021, 04:20:48 am ---As not everyone has the skill to perform repairs themselves they will of course seek out third parties or agents if required. Again, it's important that consumers get these rights not just authorized or non authorized agents of the manufacturers.

--- End quote ---
And this legislation is not restricted to businesses.

Overall I think that consumer protection laws in the US are almost non-existent, in contrast to Brasil and some EU countries where there are several provisions that cover these scenarios. In practice the answer is always somewhere in between a full coverage legislation, which increases prices and restricts transactions, and "laissez faire", which opens up for abuse and cartelization. The advent of internet and, more recently, the direct exports from China, the "laissez faire" is winning by a very large margin.

Psi:

--- Quote from: Brumby on July 23, 2021, 11:21:17 am ---
--- Quote from: langwadt on July 22, 2021, 04:10:29 pm ---when people mention "planned obsolescence" it is mostly nonsense.
--- End quote ---
It is real and well known - but that is not the point of Right To Repair.

--- End quote ---

kinda true. The point of R2R is legislation to stop manufactures making repairs difficult, but the reason repairs are currently difficult is because of planned obsolescence.

but it kind of depends how exactly you define planned obsolescence.

Is it PO if a fridge manufacture decides to make a new fridge and uses 5 years in their product lifetime calculations? Most people would expect a fridge to last 15 years. So 5 years is shorter than public expectation.

Or, to be PO does the company have to decide to intentionally make their product less robust. Conducting tests to confirm reduced lifespan etc.

wraper:

--- Quote from: Psi on July 26, 2021, 07:45:12 am ---kinda true. The point of R2R is legislation to stop manufactures making repairs difficult, but the reason repairs are currently difficult is because of planned obsolescence.

--- End quote ---
R2R is not about making repairs easier from mechanical standpoint, or to fight planned obsolescence. It's to make parts, tools and service information available. You can be the best repairman in the world, but you won't fix the thing if required part is not available.

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