| General > General Technical Chat |
| Right to repair, my problem with it |
| << < (12/39) > >> |
| rstofer:
--- Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 18, 2021, 10:19:57 pm --- --- Quote from: rstofer on July 18, 2021, 10:10:29 pm ---And the repair shop will screw up the installation and claim that the replacement part is defective. You can see that coming a mile away! In terms of electronic gadgets, I view R2R as the "Louis Rossman Enrichment Act". I don't see any practical way to make it work that protects the manufacturers from substandard work. The manufacturers will need to add a cost to every device to cover the inevitable poor repair jobs and I don't want to pay for it. It's probably better for the manufacturers to assume they are going to need to replace 'x'% of all devices sold and just embed the cost. Do a full replacement and call it a day. In effect, they already do this for the first year so all we need to do is decide how long a full warranty should last. Three years? Twenty years? It's just money! --- End quote --- Is this a problem in the car industry? Why do you think electronics will be different? Why are you against free market competition? Why do issues keep being invented? --- End quote --- Free market doesn't mean giving away the company store. Brand X builds a widget. Some customers buy it because they find it useful. They know going in what the repair status will be if they do the least bit of searching. Caveat Emptor! And you certainly wouldn't buy another brand 'X' after the last brand 'X' failed! The car industry is a little different. It's pretty easy to replace an alternator with a 9/16" combination wrench. The owner can buy factory parts or rebuilt parts or, in some cases, after-market parts. It's not so easy to deal with BGA packages. Who has X-Ray equipment to verify that the BGA has been properly soldered? I know! Blame it on a defective replacement part! So the manufacturer should provide a troubleshooting chart for potential problems as a function of each improperly soldered ball? All 500 of them? Timing diagrams? I remember the TV schematics we used to buy when I was a kid. Back in the late '50s and early '60s. Then came color, then came PCBs and there went component level repair. At the factory, it's easy. The PCB either passes final inspection or it is scrap. The cost of rework is simply too high. Clearly, the manufacturing process is designed to minimize scrap. I still wouldn't expect 100% yield. The day isn't going to come where the consumer can repair their own modern electronic devices. There may be a few talented technicians here and there but we only see their success stories. How many devices are still dead after 'repair'? How many are deader than they were coming in? |
| Fixed_Until_Broken:
--- Quote from: rstofer on July 18, 2021, 10:20:41 pm ---They may be resisting it but John Deere parts are all over the Internet. I could even find complete engines with about 5 clicks. They're not cheap but they're available. Caterpillar parts are also readily available. From dealers or direct from the factory. There are also after-market parts available. Google has links... --- End quote --- Sensors are serialized. I can buy the part all I want but it won't work without calling up JD, Make an appointment, Hire 18 wheeler to haul the tractor to the dealership, Have them plug in the scan tool and clear the code. Edit: all this while the crops die because the tractor is out of service and the farm goes belly up from a failed harvest. |
| Mr. Scram:
--- Quote from: rstofer on July 18, 2021, 10:38:54 pm ---Free market doesn't mean giving away the company store. Brand X builds a widget. Some customers buy it because they find it useful. They know going in what the repair status will be if they do the least bit of searching. Caveat Emptor! And you certainly wouldn't buy another brand 'X' after the last brand 'X' failed! The car industry is a little different. It's pretty easy to replace an alternator with a 9/16" combination wrench. The owner can buy factory parts or rebuilt parts or, in some cases, after-market parts. It's not so easy to deal with BGA packages. Who has X-Ray equipment to verify that the BGA has been properly soldered? I know! Blame it on a defective replacement part! So the manufacturer should provide a troubleshooting chart for potential problems as a function of each improperly soldered ball? All 500 of them? Timing diagrams? I remember the TV schematics we used to buy when I was a kid. Back in the late '50s and early '60s. Then came color, then came PCBs and there went component level repair. At the factory, it's easy. The PCB either passes final inspection or it is scrap. The cost of rework is simply too high. Clearly, the manufacturing process is designed to minimize scrap. I still wouldn't expect 100% yield. The day isn't going to come where the consumer can repair their own modern electronic devices. There may be a few talented technicians here and there but we only see their success stories. How many devices are still dead after 'repair'? How many are deader than they were coming in? --- End quote --- Highly safety sensitive cars are easy but a random part in a random bit of non critical hardware is beyond the capabilities of the free market? It doesn't really add up, does it? The car repair industry is a proper free market. Vendor lock in is an anti capitalist scam. I have seen PCBs being repaired in factories, though I can't say how common that is. |
| pqass:
--- Quote --- --- Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 18, 2021, 07:00:43 pm ---How can an auto repair guarantee that emissions control systems work as intended? Well, there are means of testing this, but before these were available in the 90s, what did they do? Well, they didn't do anything, they just replaced parts more or less to spec and that was that. Best practices. The same works here. FCC... --- End quote --- Here, they must do testing and report it. Even for gas furnaces, they require a check up and maintenance by a licensed people here. Why can't I do that myself, with the instructions of the manufacturer. Purely because of liability. If a product is used by everyday consumers it should every time it passes from technician to consumer when acquiring or repairing be fully inline with all the harmonized standards the device shipped with initially. That is or should be the law. Deviating from that is unsavory business. --- End quote --- I am able to ask any licensed gas furnace installer/repair tech to fix my furnace. They are able to buy individual parts and replace them. I'm not forced to buy a new furnace when it breaks and is out of warranty. I've spent more on a single computer then the last furnace I purchased. My insurance company won't invalidate my policy because someone repaired it. --- Quote --- --- Quote from: pqass on July 18, 2021, 07:28:40 pm --- I fail to understand what IP the contractor to Intersil might have in a battery charging chip that doesn't involve a new mask. Binning? Blown fuses in an existing Intersil design? Smells like collusion to me. If Apple wants to keep it proprietary they should pay Intersil for the IP and use Apple design people to add their 2cents and contract TSMC to produce a few million. Otherwise, it should be purchasable by anyone. --- End quote --- What is the difference, we don't got to TSMC because X doesn't want to sell us parts. That statement you make is a non argument. The deal is done, the contract is made, both parties are bound to it. Making a law that prevents this will impact a lot of contract stuff. Don't underestimate how much of the industry works with these kind of contracts. The only thing you can legislate correctly is that manufacturer A can in its best effort try to repair their product for X years after the legal warranty period against manufacturing defects ends. I guess that all other legislation to further open this up, will have more negative side consequences. --- End quote --- My argument was that I suspect Intersil is colluding with Apple to make a part unavailable to third parties so that end-users don't have the opportunity to economically repair common failures in the products they buy. This has a direct advantage to Apple's income. If Apple had to spin their own wafers for everything (ie. keep all IP in-house) they'd think twice about what's really important. Apple shouldn't compel Intersil from selling Intersil IP (through dishonest, non-competitive contracts) to anyone else just because a part is used in an Apple product. Non-compete contracts should NOT be enforcable just like employment contracts CAN'T prohibit you from working for a competitor [in some jurisdictions]. Even Apple can't afford to spin a wafer or take everything in-house for every part they use so don't worry about your future contracts. Basically, if someone skilled in the arts of board-level repair (like a licensed/experienced mechanic) can properly replace a part, then those parts should be made available either through an OEM or the 1st party. Any repair risk is assumed by the owner unless the repair was half-assed which he should take up with the repair tech's employer. As for serializing parts to the larger board, the 1st party should be compled to facilitate that (for a price) since the device is out-of-warranty anyway and the repair is being directed by the owner of the device. Failure to facilitate could be seen as being anti-competitive with 1st party's latest products. |
| T3sl4co1l:
--- Quote from: rstofer on July 18, 2021, 10:10:29 pm ---And the repair shop will screw up the installation and claim that the replacement part is defective. You can see that coming a mile away! In terms of electronic gadgets, I view R2R as the "Louis Rossman Enrichment Act". ... --- End quote --- Wow... I used to respect you, but this? Tim |
| Navigation |
| Message Index |
| Next page |
| Previous page |