General > General Technical Chat
Right to repair, my problem with it
bdunham7:
--- Quote from: pqass on July 19, 2021, 06:07:38 am ---Wrapping a trade secret in a contract doesn't make it legal.
--- End quote ---
Of course it does. Trade secrets, even lame ones, are perfectly legal. Contracts not to reveal them are also legal.
--- Quote ---If its deemed anti-competitive, it's void and both parties will have legal trouble.
--- End quote ---
Anti-trust issues are certainly involved in R2R, but forcing a contract manufacturer to supply a proprietary chip to third parties seems pretty far fetched to me.
--- Quote ---R2R is partly about access to the same components that sellers put in their products.
--- End quote ---
No, it isn't. R2R is mostly about non-OEM repair facilities being provide access to parts and service information on roughly the same terms as the OEM-authorized facilities. So if Apple has bins of those chips at their repair centers and replacing them is how they fix the boards, they should offer the part for sale. If they service the units by board replacement, then they only need to offer the boards. Now I don't doubt that Apple will make every effort to circumvent these laws. I wouldn't put it past them to 'service' units with refurbished boards, then send the board back to a remote location for 'refurbishing', which may include replacing said chip. In that case I would take your side and call them liars and cheaters. Oh wait, I already do call them liars and cheaters...
There's another aspect to R2R--aftermarket parts. This has been a hotly contested issue in the automotive world--how much information do automotive OEMs have to provide so as to allow third-party parts manufacturing. It's hugely complicated, but they typically don't need to reveal proprietary information--with some exceptions--but they do have to be careful to avoid antitrust issues. If Apple's contract with Intersil prohibited Intersil from making any chips that would perform the same function, even if designed and contracted for by a third party (say L. Rossman Enterprises), that might be deemed anticompetitive.
wraper:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on July 19, 2021, 03:49:56 pm ---
--- Quote ---If its deemed anti-competitive, it's void and both parties will have legal trouble.
--- End quote ---
Anti-trust issues are certainly involved in R2R, but forcing a contract manufacturer to supply a proprietary chip to third parties seems pretty far fetched to me.
--- End quote ---
And it's bullshit and creating FUD because nobody asks for that. What is asked is that parts should be made available to 3rd party repair shops. If Apple provides that itself, it would be more than enough.
T3sl4co1l:
--- Quote from: m98 on July 19, 2021, 11:39:50 am ---Somehow, all of those anti-right-to-repair shills remind me of one small business owner in the US I once called to get a relatively old device's firmware because I had to replace the micro. He told me: "Fuck off, this is MY PROPERTY, I keep ALL THE CODE in a USB-Drive tucked in my underpants!!!".
Uhm, cultural differences, I guess. :-//
--- End quote ---
It's weird what happens, when a populace that doesn't own any capital, is convinced that they are all capitalists. :-//
Tim
pqass:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on July 19, 2021, 03:49:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: pqass on July 19, 2021, 06:07:38 am ---Wrapping a trade secret in a contract doesn't make it legal.
--- End quote ---
Of course it does. Trade secrets, even lame ones, are perfectly legal. Contracts not to reveal them are also legal.
--- Quote ---If its deemed anti-competitive, it's void and both parties will have legal trouble.
--- End quote ---
Anti-trust issues are certainly involved in R2R, but forcing a contract manufacturer to supply a proprietary chip to third parties seems pretty far fetched to me.
--- End quote ---
People write unenforceable contracts all the time. A judge will determine if it's legal when challenged.
A contract manufacturer may find itself in hot water if all it did was re-badge chips.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---R2R is partly about access to the same components that sellers put in their products.
--- End quote ---
No, it isn't. R2R is mostly about non-OEM repair facilities being provide access to parts and service information on roughly the same terms as the OEM-authorized facilities. So if Apple has bins of those chips at their repair centers and replacing them is how they fix the boards, they should offer the part for sale. If they service the units by board replacement, then they only need to offer the boards. Now I don't doubt that Apple will make every effort to circumvent these laws. I wouldn't put it past them to 'service' units with refurbished boards, then send the board back to a remote location for 'refurbishing', which may include replacing said chip. In that case I would take your side and call them liars and cheaters. Oh wait, I already do call them liars and cheaters...
There's another aspect to R2R--aftermarket parts. This has been a hotly contested issue in the automotive world--how much information do automotive OEMs have to provide so as to allow third-party parts manufacturing. It's hugely complicated, but they typically don't need to reveal proprietary information--with some exceptions--but they do have to be careful to avoid antitrust issues. If Apple's contract with Intersil prohibited Intersil from making any chips that would perform the same function, even if designed and contracted for by a third party (say L. Rossman Enterprises), that might be deemed anticompetitive.
--- End quote ---
Rossmann on R2R; it's only 1min long:
A product seller can claim they don't have any facility that does board-level repairs. They simply buy boards in bulk from China and may give you the option to buy the whole board if available. And chuck the broken one in the bin.
bdunham7:
--- Quote from: pqass on July 19, 2021, 07:26:23 pm ---People write unenforceable contracts all the time. A judge will determine if it's legal when challenged.
A contract manufacturer may find itself in hot water if all it did was re-badge chips.
--- End quote ---
Manufacturers have been rebadging chips for years, for a variety of valid, legal reasons. Have any of them been successfully sued for this specific practice?
--- Quote ---A product seller can claim they don't have any facility that does board-level repairs. They simply buy boards in bulk from China and may give you the option to buy the whole board if available. And chuck the broken one in the bin.
--- End quote ---
And there's very little that any R2R legislation I know of, or that is likely to appear anytime soon, is going to do about that. At some point consumers have to use their buying choices to influence these issues. If the issue of the charging chip occurs so often that we're all talking about it, a mandatory product recall might be the way to go. In addition to, or perhaps instead of, R2R, how about mandated warranties or quality requirements? Or do consumers have the right to buy a cheap POS if they want to?
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