General > General Technical Chat
Right to repair, my problem with it
Bassman59:
--- Quote from: pqass on July 18, 2021, 06:27:52 pm ---So if I ask Intersil to create a custom design for specially me and also ask them to produce it for me. Who are you to demand access to that chip? In my view you are asking for an "Apple component" from Intersil, and not a "Intersil component". Which manufacturer it makes totally doesn't matter. It is a "Apple component" so you should ask Apple if they could supply it to you. I don't see any point to have legally forced to sell you that part. Or should we also demand from Apple that they sell their M1 CPU?
--- End quote ---
NOW WAIT A MINUTE! I agree with the above, and here's why.
Since the dawn of the microcontroller era, back before some participants in this forum were even born, the chip manufacturers have offered mask-programmed parts. Send them money and a binary image and they make a mask and build your parts and they will even put whatever markings you want on the chip. So the part might be labeled Intel or Microchip or Motorola or whatever, with an obscure part number and it's used in a product or product line by an OEM.
Or as an alternative to mask-programmed parts the chip manufacturers would offer factory-programming services. Send them money and a binary image and they program a shitload of parts for you and they'd put whatever label you want on the part.
Same for PLDs and CPLDs and FPGAs ... I remember doing QuickLogic FPGAs (OTP) that would be converted into an ASIC and the required quantities weren't even astronomical -- maybe 1,000? Oh yeah, Altera and Xilinx used to offer a service that took your FPGA design and made a mask-programmed ROM version of it.
And we see this here in the forum: "I opened up a so-and-so, there's a Motorola chip with this part number, what is it?"
This still happens today.
Here's a question: What was (is) the chance that a third-party repair provider or individual end customer could buy any of the chips I described above, in any quantity, at any price?
Oh, let's think about that for a nanosecond. Hmm: identically zero chance, for all known and unknown values of zero.
So now there's a big brouhaha about Apple contracting Intersil to make a chip, and Apple and Intersil are suddenly bad guys because they won't sell that chip to people on the street?
Seriously?
Bassman59:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on July 19, 2021, 08:28:27 pm --- Or do consumers have the right to buy a cheap POS if they want to?
--- End quote ---
It's not a question of whether consumers have the right to buy cheap pieces of shit.
They actually demand cheap pieces of shit.
Look at what is sold on Amazon, or in your local Walmart or Harbor Freight. Look at the junk on display at the end caps of your local supermarket. Look at how formerly trusted tool and consumer-electronics brands now sell crap. We are literally flooded by cheap pieces of shit.
And it's because consumers won't pay for anything better.
pqass:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on July 19, 2021, 08:28:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: pqass on July 19, 2021, 07:26:23 pm ---People write unenforceable contracts all the time. A judge will determine if it's legal when challenged.
A contract manufacturer may find itself in hot water if all it did was re-badge chips.
--- End quote ---
Manufacturers have been rebadging chips for years, for a variety of valid, legal reasons. Have any of them been successfully sued for this specific practice?
--- End quote ---
It would depend if the re-badged chips are unavailable during products useful life (or some part thereof).
IANAL but this would seem to appy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_Kodak_Co._v._Image_Technical_Services,_Inc.:
"Majority Opinion [of the Supreme Court] {ISO=Independent Service Organizations}
"... Kodak did not make all of the parts that went into its equipment. It purchased parts from parts manufacturers. As part of Kodak's policy to limit sales of replacement parts for micrographic and copying machines only to buyers of Kodak equipment who use Kodak service or repair their own machines, Kodak sought to limit ISOs' access to other sources of Kodak parts besides Kodak itself, Kodak got manufacturers of its parts to agree with it that they would not sell parts that fit Kodak equipment to anyone other than Kodak. Kodak also pressured Kodak equipment owners and independent parts distributors not to sell Kodak parts to ISOs. In addition, Kodak took steps to restrict the availability to ISOs of used machines."
Apple has also been known for stopping ISOs from re-importing parts from foreign sources.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/evk4wk/dhs-seizes-iphone-screens-jessa-jones
www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/reports/nixing-fix-ftc-report-congress-repair-restrictions/nixing_the_fix_report_final_5521_630pm-508_002.pdf page 11:
"A. Antitrust Principles Related to Manufacturer Restrictions on Repair
Manufacturer restrictions on aftermarket competition may be subject to claims under
Section 1 or Section 2 of the Sherman Act or Section 5 of the FTC Act. Section 1 of the
Sherman Act prohibits agreements that restrain competition. Section 2 prohibits
monopolization or attempted monopolization by a single entity, as well as by combination or
conspiracy."
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---A product seller can claim they don't have any facility that does board-level repairs. They simply buy boards in bulk from China and may give you the option to buy the whole board if available. And chuck the broken one in the bin.
--- End quote ---
And there's very little that any R2R legislation I know of, or that is likely to appear anytime soon, is going to do about that. At some point consumers have to use their buying choices to influence these issues. If the issue of the charging chip occurs so often that we're all talking about it, a mandatory product recall might be the way to go. In addition to, or perhaps instead of, R2R, how about mandated warranties or quality requirements? Or do consumers have the right to buy a cheap POS if they want to?
--- End quote ---
Or maybe R2R might look like this: (Page 48 of the same FTC PDF linked above)
"2. The European Approach
The European Union has adopted a number of regulations aimed at increasing consumer
repair options in the home appliance industry, which went into effect on March 1, 2021. Unlike
the model state legislation, which would require a manufacturer to make available to individuals
and independent repair shops those parts that the manufacturer provides to its authorized repair
network, the EU prescribes the types of parts and time period during which the parts must be
made available..."
pqass:
--- Quote from: Bassman59 on July 19, 2021, 09:07:19 pm ---
--- Quote from: pqass on July 18, 2021, 06:27:52 pm ---So if I ask Intersil to create a custom design for specially me and also ask them to produce it for me. Who are you to demand access to that chip? In my view you are asking for an "Apple component" from Intersil, and not a "Intersil component". Which manufacturer it makes totally doesn't matter. It is a "Apple component" so you should ask Apple if they could supply it to you. I don't see any point to have legally forced to sell you that part. Or should we also demand from Apple that they sell their M1 CPU?
--- End quote ---
NOW WAIT A MINUTE! I agree with the above, and here's why.
...
So now there's a big brouhaha about Apple contracting Intersil to make a chip, and Apple and Intersil are suddenly bad guys because they won't sell that chip to people on the street?
Seriously?
--- End quote ---
Yes they're the bad guys.
If it's so simple to runoff another batch why don't they for a product that still has a useful life?
I'm not talking about a 30yo obsolete door-stop.
Keysight can make a half-assed attempt. Why can't Apple?
https://www.keysight.com/my/viewPart/34461A
Zero999:
--- Quote from: rstofer on July 18, 2021, 06:07:20 pm ---
--- Quote from: ataradov on July 18, 2021, 05:55:21 pm ---FCC does not care as much about a single modified unit. There are limits to this, of course, in case if intentional radiators, but generally it dos not matter. The same as RoHS. You can use leaded solder for repairs, nobody will fine you.
--- End quote ---
But I wouldn't want to fly with one! In theory, they shouldn't affect flight controls but I believe the verbal instructions still ask for cell phones (and other electronic devices) to be turned off during takeoff and landing. Otherwise, the takeoff might actually be a landing...
I have no idea what a bodged laptop could do.
--- End quote ---
What a load of bollocks. If flight controls were so badly designed that easily be interfered with, they wouldn't pass the EMC tests themselves, otherwise we'd have terrorists taking down aeroplanes left, right and centre with radio transmitters. :palm:
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