General > General Technical Chat
Right to repair, my problem with it
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bdunham7:

--- Quote from: pqass on July 19, 2021, 09:33:01 pm ---It would depend if the re-badged chips are unavailable during products useful life (or some part thereof).....IANAL but this would seem to apply:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_Kodak_Co._v._Image_Technical_Services,_Inc.:
"Majority Opinion [of the Supreme Court]   

--- End quote ---

No, I don't think it matters if the rebadged chips are available or not, although some other R2R laws may deal with that.

As I said above, if Apple actively tried to prevent someone from making a replacement chip equivalent to theirs, they might be liable for antitrust violations just like Kodak was found to be.  But it takes a lot more than rebadging a chip and keeping it in house--Kodak did a lot more than that.  Just for the record, I'm not on Apple's side and I think they probably have done things that should cause antitrust actions to be filed against them, I just don't think this particular issue that you raise is a good case.


--- Quote ---Or maybe R2R might look like this:  (Page 48 of the same FTC PDF linked above)
"2. The European Approach
The European Union has adopted a number of regulations aimed at increasing consumer
repair options in the home appliance industry, which went into effect on March 1, 2021. Unlike
the model state legislation, which would require a manufacturer to make available to individuals
and independent repair shops those parts that the manufacturer provides to its authorized repair
network, the EU prescribes the types of parts and time period during which the parts must be
made available..."

--- End quote ---

Yes, that is expanding the R2R arena a bit in regard to those specific items.  It may be a good thing but should be done carefully so as to not cause a reduction in consumer choice or an increase in price.  The concept is not entirely new, there have been laws on the books for years mandating parts support at least for the term of the longest warranty, and occasionally more.  I'm not sure that having some bureaucrat decide how long my refrigerator should be supported is better than simply insisting that if the manufacturer has the parts as service parts, they sell them to me.
Brumby:
I am astounded by some of the arguments against Right To Repair.  Some are pure invention and others rely on befuddling those who may not understanding the basic issues by scaremongering and brandishing buzzwords.  It's worse than politics.

The equivalent practices, issues and arguments applied to motor vehicle repairs would be considered anything from petty to outrageous.  I include all "quality of repair" issues as well.

A well-equipped workshop does not guarantee top notch repairs, nor does a humble mechanic with only one old hoist mean you'll get ripped off.  Flash equipment only makes the job of performing repairs easier - the result comes from the skill of the person doing the job.  This is where a mechanic will build their reputation and, if they are good, their business.  Bad actors will suffer.  Along the way, consumers will find out who is which.

Intellectual property issues are a strawman argument (particularly, grasping at straws).  Anyone wanting to perform a repair has no particular interest in how a specific part does it's job or any other information that IP relates to.  The issue is simply that once they have identified that a part is faulty, that they can source a replacement, fit it correctly and restore proper operation.

Imagine the uproar if your starter motor died and the manufacturer of the starter motor was told by the vehicle manufacturer to not sell you a replacement - and your only option was offered by the manufacturer of the vehicle and that was to replace the entire engine and transmission.

Or let's say the ignition module was the same as used in dozens of other vehicles, but your particular one was "customised" under direction of the vehicle manufacturer to have a serial number that had to match one stored in your ECU or the engine wouldn't start.  Is this really a matter of security (questionable in my book) or an example of restrictive trade practices, forcing the manufacturer into a position of control?

* The above was written with the average motor vehicle in mind.  Try re-reading with a piece of electronic equipment in mind. *

It should also be made clear that, for the core issues of right to repair, there is no burden on a manufacturer to impede their development of newer technologies, improving performance, security, functionality or miniaturisation.  If a new manufacturing process results in repair being more difficult, then that is going to weed out some of the hacks and only those with better ability will rise to the top.  This is fine - just that they refrain from actively thwarting repair efforts for no good reason.  (Controlling the after-market is NOT a good reason for anything but their bottom line, IMHO.)


If you allow parts to be available (yes, add a licensing fee into the price if you want), allow information to be available and allow tools to be available then I believe this will attract more people into the repair industry that are more principled.  I would be much happier using someone who was not prepared to do deals under the table as is often the case now.
ace1903:
I own Citroen Berlingo that developed oil leak in pressure sensor in hydraulic steering. I asked local Citroen service for repair and they need 4 days to keep the car in their premises to investigate and fix.
I complained since there is nothing to be investigated, I only ask to replace the sensor, but they refused and wanted 200eur for  the fix. Four days out of service was too much for me and 200eur for sensor is also difficult to swallow. One friend of mine said to me to ask in Peugeot service for part since Peugeot Partner and Citroen Berlingo are basically same car. Peugeot service center sold me the sensor for 70eur on my own responsibility.
I took off the old sensor and put new one in 5min. Four days vs 5min and 200eur vs 70eur.
The old sensor and the new one have same product number engraved on them from Valeo. If Valeo was allowed to sell the sensor in local parts market probably it will cost around 40eur.
That is why I support R2R initiative. Give me the spare part list and place where I can buy.

Hiding schematics , part list , service manual can not be the way to protect intellectual property.
langwadt:

--- Quote from: ace1903 on July 20, 2021, 09:31:51 am ---I own Citroen Berlingo that developed oil leak in pressure sensor in hydraulic steering. I asked local Citroen service for repair and they need 4 days to keep the car in their premises to investigate and fix.
I complained since there is nothing to be investigated, I only ask to replace the sensor, but they refused and wanted 200eur for  the fix. Four days out of service was too much for me and 200eur for sensor is also difficult to swallow. One friend of mine said to me to ask in Peugeot service for part since Peugeot Partner and Citroen Berlingo are basically same car. Peugeot service center sold me the sensor for 70eur on my own responsibility.
I took off the old sensor and put new one in 5min. Four days vs 5min and 200eur vs 70eur.
The old sensor and the new one have same product number engraved on them from Valeo. If Valeo was allowed to sell the sensor in local parts market probably it will cost around 40eur.
That is why I support R2R initiative. Give me the spare part list and place where I can buy.

Hiding schematics , part list , service manual can not be the way to protect intellectual property.

--- End quote ---

afaiu in Germany car manufacturers are required to make spare parts available for minimum of 10 years
G7PSK:

[/quote]

afaiu in Germany car manufacturers are required to make spare parts available for minimum of 10 years
[/quote]

Same here in UK, dealers get to be the only source for many components due to "proprietery" parts and some manufacturers require the onboard computers to be reset for simple things like lam changes otherwise the item is not recognised and wont work despite being a standard lam/bulb. Many smaller garages dont have the computer software required and its almost certain that the average motorist wont have the equipment, in the past all that was required to change said bulb was a screwdriver and the replacement bulb. Gone are the days where all cars had the same lights and you could replace them easily. Years gone by Rolls Royce lams cost £500.00 for a sealed beam unit the same one as could be purchased for £5.00 for an Austin mini or Rover or Jaguar the only difference was the units did not have the RR logo on them now the lights are made so they only fit one make or model, this can only be so that they can charge more ensuring that you cannot go elsewhere. wing mirror glass used to be availble at 70 pence each now you have to buy a complete unit for £350.
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