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Right to Repair - UK and EU making changes to facilitate repairs :)
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SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 02, 2023, 08:16:05 am ---It's doing well. Our last Miele died at 13 yrs old with a cracked spider.

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My current machine is a Whirlpool, usually not nearly as reliable as Miele, but it is 14 years old and still working fine. The only thing is the door switch is beginning to be a bit moody and requires some shaking every once in a while in order for the machine to detect the door is closed when starting a program. Changing it would probably be pretty easy although I'm not particularly looking forward to dismantling the machine just to change a switch. Haven't tried lubricating it yet for fear of getting oil in the laundry, but might try this first. Maybe some dry grease instead?
themadhippy:

--- Quote ---The only thing is the door switch is beginning to be a bit moody and requires some shaking every once in a while in order for the machine to detect the door is closed when starting a program
--- End quote ---
might be its moved slightly so the latch isn't quite lining up .Might be as simple as undoing the 2 screws slightly that hold the door latch , close and open the door a few times and  re tighten 
SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: themadhippy on March 03, 2023, 02:41:57 am ---
--- Quote ---The only thing is the door switch is beginning to be a bit moody and requires some shaking every once in a while in order for the machine to detect the door is closed when starting a program
--- End quote ---
might be its moved slightly so the latch isn't quite lining up .Might be as simple as undoing the 2 screws slightly that hold the door latch , close and open the door a few times and  re tighten

--- End quote ---

That sounds possible indeed. Fortunately it does have the 2 screws accessible (i've seen models that did not), so I'll try just that.
Neutrion:

--- Quote from: Alti on February 26, 2023, 12:56:23 am ---
--- Quote from: Neutrion on February 20, 2023, 06:04:00 pm ---There are some problems with the "A" however.
A perfectly planned component life time can not account for different methods of usage.
(..)Think about how many different ways things can be used.
--- End quote ---
Of course - real life use case is way/infinitely more complex than this naive model. It assumes a-priori knowledge of K. The role of this model is not to fit all cases as this would have required much more than 3 parameters and sophistication than those simplified assumptions.

My idea was to grab the essence of two competing solutions, A vs B and understand right-to-repair rules that allow both to coexist. It is the only way our future can develop. As you can see, you cannot pick any K and any Q. Only some subset allows both designs to achieve TC(A)=TC(B). Any right-to-repair that does not allow this equality to hold would mean that the near future consists of only A or only B and that is unlikely.


--- End quote ---

OK, but I meant that case "A" can not exist in practical life, only in subcomponent level, or in case of very small embedded stuff.


--- Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 02, 2023, 08:16:05 am ---It's doing well. Our last Miele died at 13 yrs old with a cracked spider.

I spent a day pulling the machine to bits, and as far as I could tell everything else in there was pristine, but the spider only came as a part of a complete drum assembly and that was £600. Their spare parts availability to end-users hasn't improved since then; quite the opposite, in fact.

I did a load of research and discovered that, across the entire industry, repairability of washing machines is *terrible*. The phrase "sealed drum" comes up a lot... a penny pinching design choice that means the machine is basically scrap when the bearing assembly wears out. Miele was about the only manufacturer known to not make this choice.

They also came up top of the ranking in terms of (Length of warranty / Purchase price), which was the metric I ended up using to make a final decision. On the assumption that any machine is likely to fail and become scrap as soon as the warranty expires, I bought the cheapest model that came with a 10 year warranty, which gave the overall lowest cost/lifetime of any machine on the market.

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Funny I also did a lot a research when we bought our wasching machine 4 years ago, good to see that I am not alone! :)
(Although there are even washing machine channels on youtube, so it brings me a good argument with friends that I am actually completely sane.)
Did you buy a Beko? Or the ceapest Miele at that time?(There is no full 10 years warranty without the insurance type stuff as far as I know with any manufacturers.) Because for me the integrated motor-inverter was a no go with the Beko because of it's bad thermal design.

Drum Spider: There are some guys in Ukraine who are(hopefully still) producing stainless stel drum spiders for different modells.
Also there is a Ukrainian youtuber, producing really good videos about repairing the sealed drums. There it is obviously worth the time, that is why it is not so easy to make these calculations for the manufacturers.

Sealed drum: Also LG and Samsung drums are not sealed, it seems.


--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 26, 2023, 07:36:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: perdrix on February 26, 2023, 10:50:44 am --->it's probably unsafe in the general case to make it a rule to just let random joes repair them.

What's the problem with allowing Darwinian selection ? :)

--- End quote ---

I wouldn't be against it myself, to some extent. ;D
And I'm all for giving people more individual responsibilities.

But my point here is that it would be almost completely opposite to the principle of european directives in general, and CE marking in particular. So, from a legislation point of view, that would make little sense.



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I am not sure about those directives, but the argument with the safety of repairs is one of the most dangerous for the right to repair movement, and it is also flawed.
Right to repair is not there to have every single soul to repair their machines. It is either for those who know what they are doing, or for repair services.
Which will appear again, if the industry would change course.
(There will be a lot of high level engineers aviable there as workforce soon thanks to AI :)   )

So just because someone can do something does not mean that everybody will do it. So manufacturer responsibility could be excluded in these cases easily.

If we try to finetune the society for needs the biggest idiots, than we will end up either with communism or some idiocracy. Not being allowed to renovate your own house is completely new for me.


I also wanted to raise the issue with the right to cannibalize. So because it seems that in the EU we are not allowed anymore to walk into a  junk yard and take some parts which is an utmost stupid decision.
(Ok in France seems that at least in the Carefour you can pick some smaller electronic "waste" items for free which I liked a lot, but not sure about the bigger cities or the normal wasteyards.)
If the problem is the orks who steal stuff to get the metal parts and sell it, than it would make much more sense to ask for a small fee which is bigger than the value of the metal in the unit.
A huge amount of perfectly fine part is destroyed in this way, and making the life of those who would like to be able to use those parts or sell them very hard.  In Sweden a few years ago some guys were catched by the police because "stealing" junk TVs from a recycle center. Really??    |O
(If they wouldn't have the problem with all the shooting and bombing and having to import policeman from Norway and stuff I might could even understand...)









Alti:

--- Quote from: timeandfrequency on February 27, 2023, 09:19:23 pm ---You pinpointed the way to get rid of such very high Q situations : building a 'heater+boiler' assembly is a nonsense because the heaters' lifespan is significantly lower than the boiler.
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Actually I wanted to show you that a design change (introducing screws) does not guarantee that Q decreases or that TC decreases. Quite opposite outcome is possible, as pointed out.

I think your complain about poor design choice of combining heater and boiler has serious flaw. Your "right to repair" is associated with N, maybe a bit with Ki. It seems the more modules a steam cleaner design has, the more right-to-repair expectations it fulfills for you. So for N=1 this is Pure Evil, for N=4 is good, N=11 marvelous and at N=72 you cannot resist to caress its power cable.

That is irrational. It is irrational to prefer A over B and B over A, based on N or on Ki. This decision should have been based on TC, only.


--- Quote from: timeandfrequency on February 27, 2023, 09:19:23 pm ---The parts prone to wearing and/or frequent failure have to be sold separately and should be easy to remove and reinstall.
--- End quote ---
Right, so you essentially rephrased definitions of the naive A vs B model.


--- Quote from: timeandfrequency on February 27, 2023, 09:19:23 pm ---For that particular appliance, the manufacturer chose to tighten the production cost by crimping the heater into the boiler, rather than attaching it with 4 screws and clips.
--- End quote ---
So, since you admitted the repair has not been completed, this fits into the model as either an A design with pretty short K, or as B design with K1 that was the shortest of all Ki. It was modular, still no dice, successful repair has not taken place. Any conclusions?

May it be that N does not really determine TC?
You can have N=1 design with low TC and you can have N=19 design with high TC.
You are blindly pushing into high N designs!

You are rejecting other solutions because of some superstitions or irrational goals.
Had they made this boiler from thinner and lower grade steel, the heater and boiler could have same Ki values and could have died same day, ultimately making a nice A design. This could have resulted in lower manufacturing and purchase costs, no necessity to burn fuel traveling back and forth with spare parts. Once again - it is not N or Ki but TC that rules.


--- Quote from: timeandfrequency on February 27, 2023, 09:19:23 pm ---as for the washing machine plastic tanks, the decision to make the appliance more sustainable was not taken. Instead, they opted to run the manufacturing process solely on cost.
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I have an impression that you are somehow biassed towards B.
Both designs are ALWAYS periodic so stop with this "sustainability" - it means nothing.
Somehow B is more sustainable as A for you.
How do you know the drum assembly had different Ki as the motor, the pump, rubber pieces? How do you know there is any useful life left in this washing machine? You'll replace the bearings and next day you'll fight with replacing inlet valve, then next day rubber pipe hits its Ki.

If there is going to be a Right-to-Repair fundamentalists demonstration, I bet we see you waving "Fuck Q" or "Ban A". No offense intended, just think it over.
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