Right to Repair - UK and EU making changes to facilitate repairs :)

[Fraser]

Just read this from the BBC 

'Right to repair' law to come in this summer https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

It is not clear whether this will include electronics like iPads etc. If it does, Louis Rossmann will be pleased with this precedent as he fights for the right to repair, and the supply of parts to do so, in the USA 

To my way of thinking, if you gain the right to repair a washing machine, that contains electronics, why would the same rules not apply to Hi-Fi, TV and Computer equipment. TV’s are mentioned in the article.

A big question will be parts cost though. I have seen a situation where an OEM is willing to supply parts to bona fide competent repair technicians (health and safety concerns) but the prices are scary high.

Fraser

[SilverSolder]

What are all the brexitard^h^h^h^h^h  freedom loving leave voters going to think about staying in sync with the Brussels tyranny??

[CJay]

A big question will be parts cost though. I have seen a situation where an OEM is willing to supply parts to bona fide competent repair technicians (health and safety concerns) but the prices are scary high.

Fraser

I've a feeling I know how this will go.

The manufacturers will insist on training for technicians for 'safety reasons'.

Once a technician is accredited then the manufacturer will allow them to buy parts but there will be a clause in the accreditation that allows said manufacturer to suspend/revoke accreditation on a whim if they suspect you of using non genuine parts or selling on genuine parts to non-authorised repairers.

Said genuine spares will be modules for 'safety reasons', I.E. a complete PCB swap out and they'll be *eye wateringly* expensive.

There'll be a hefty surcharge that can be refunded on return and inspection of the faulty board to discourage parts swappers so there'll be no ordering up a board to 'borrow' chips off it.

I.E. pretty much the same as it always has been for authorised repairers.

[Alti]

Companies want to make money, that is their only goal.
Every time someone repairs an appliance, the company looses money.

About four years ago EU introduced ban on recycling of disassembled appliances/whitegoods.
Previously I could go to the local scrap yard and pull out a pump, heater or a wiring loom from a scrapped appliance to repair mine. Since new regulations were introduced scrap yards can only accept and resell complete appliances. I have not repaired a single appliance since then because, even though these parts are there, I cannot buy them now.

That is EU right to repair 

[Fraser]

SilverSolder,

A good idea is a good idea, no matter the source. You seem to be under the impression that those who voted to leave the EU think every idea the EU cane up with was bad..... not so me thinks. An issue with EU ideas is that they can take a long time to ‘happen’ as all member states need to agree and, in some cases, a member state, or states, objects to even a good idea ! The EU has had some very good ideas and there is no shame in continuing to stay in step with those good ideas coming out of the EU.

It is the bad, or poorly considered ideas coming out of the EU that will fall by the wayside in the UK 

The EU is not a ‘bad’ institution, it is just the classic ‘Committee’ situation that was recently described by its own leadership as a lumbering oil tanker compared to the speed boat that is now the UK  I personally like speed so will go with the ‘Speed boat’ that is nimble and fast to respond rather than wallowing around trying to manoeuvre.

Only a fool would ignore good ideas, no matter where they come from 

Fraser

[Fraser]

I owned an Audi TT in 2002 and wanted the service manual for it. Audi UK virtually laughed in my face when I asked to buy one. I found out that in the USA Audi had to offer the Service Manual in order to comply with US law. They provide those manuals via an approved source/agent and I ordered my TT manual from them. They shipped it to the UK without question and it was around £70. Not exactly cheap but at least it was not crazy expensive.

When I went into the UK dealer parts area to buy an official Audi spare lamp set I took the service manual printout of the cars lamp details with me. The Parts guy gave me an Official Audi spare lamp set and I compared the contents to what my TT used. The parts guy was horrified ! I discovered that almost every lamp my TT used was NOT in the official TT spare lamp kit .... I showed the service manual page to the parts guy and the first thing he said was “where did you get that, you are not allowed to have a service manual “  I explained the US law on such matters to him. The guy calmed down and built me a bespoke spare lamp kit from the service manual listing that contained more lamps, and expensive ones at that, before charging me the standard, reasonable, price of the generic spares kit.

The look on that parts guys face when he saw I had ‘priviledged’ information still makes me smile.... he was truly horrified that a member of the Public could check on his part numbers etc  Happy days.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Regarding the status of a tech who wants to buy parts..... yes I have met that issue many times over the years. I would write to a company asking to buy a part from them and would receive the standard response that due to health and Safety, plus public liability issues, they were not able to help me but please feel free to send the unit to their official service centre for a good fleecing 

That has been the case for at least two decades. Companies got scared about public liability if they provided parts to a person who then caused harm to themselves or others. They were also trying to deal with cowboy repair shops who used unqualified, poorly trained staff to carry out repairs.

I introduce myself to companies these days and state for the record that I am a fully qualified component level repair technician, competent to work on their equipment. It is a surprisingly successful approach. Parts costs can still be high however. No different to buying OEM car parts I suppose.

Fraser

[SilverSolder]

SilverSolder,

A good idea is a good idea, no matter the source. You seem to be under the impression that those who voted to leave the EU think every idea the EU cane up with was bad..... not so me thinks. An issue with EU ideas is that they can take a long time to ‘happen’ as all member states need to agree and, in some cases, a member state, or states, objects to even a good idea ! The EU has had some very good ideas and there is no shame in continuing to stay in step with those good ideas coming out of the EU.

It is the bad, or poorly considered ideas coming out of the EU that will fall by the wayside in the UK 

The EU is not a ‘bad’ institution, it is just the classic ‘Committee’ situation that was recently described by its own leadership as a lumbering oil tanker compared to the speed boat that is now the UK  I personally like speed so will go with the ‘Speed boat’ that is nimble and fast to respond rather than wallowing around trying to manoeuvre.

Only a fool would ignore good ideas, no matter where they come from 

Fraser

"a lumbering oil tanker compared to the speed boat that is now the UK"  -  against that, what would you rather have shares in... an oil tanker, or a speed boat?  Does the speed boat crew know where they are going? - "going away from something you think is not optimal" is not the same as "going towards something that is going to be really great".

But, let's not rehash this stale debate, it is what it is.   I think we need to get to some better agreements between UK/EU to make things run a little more smoothly going forward.  I feel too much good has been thrown out right now.

[CJay]

Companies want to make money, that is their only goal.
Every time someone repairs an appliance, the company looses money.

About four years ago EU introduced ban on recycling of disassembled appliances/whitegoods.
Previously I could go to the local scrap yard and pull out a pump, heater or a wiring loom from a scrapped appliance to repair mine. Since new regulations were introduced scrap yards can only accept and resell complete appliances. I have not repaired a single appliance since then because, even though these parts are there, I cannot buy them now.

That is EU right to repair 

Could you show me the rules that enforced that because it's not affected me?

[SilverSolder]

Companies want to make money, that is their only goal.
Every time someone repairs an appliance, the company looses money.

About four years ago EU introduced ban on recycling of disassembled appliances/whitegoods.
Previously I could go to the local scrap yard and pull out a pump, heater or a wiring loom from a scrapped appliance to repair mine. Since new regulations were introduced scrap yards can only accept and resell complete appliances. I have not repaired a single appliance since then because, even though these parts are there, I cannot buy them now.

That is EU right to repair 

I'd love to know what the official reason(s) for this decision are?

[Retep]

What are all the brexitard^h^h^h^h^h  freedom loving leave voters going to think about staying in sync with the Brussels tyranny??

You should be grateful instead of insulting those who liberated our country. If it weren't for the Brexiteers EU soldiers would still be marching in our streets and our children would be forced to speak EUan or whatever funny language they speak over there.

[SilverSolder]

I owned an Audi TT in 2002 and wanted the service manual for it. Audi UK virtually laughed in my face when I asked to buy one. I found out that in the USA Audi had to offer the Service Manual in order to comply with US law. They provide those manuals via an approved source/agent and I ordered my TT manual from them. They shipped it to the UK without question and it was around £70. Not exactly cheap but at least it was not crazy expensive.

When I went into the UK dealer parts area to buy an official Audi spare lamp set I took the service manual printout of the cars lamp details with me. The Parts guy gave me an Official Audi spare lamp set and I compared the contents to what my TT used. The parts guy was horrified ! I discovered that almost every lamp my TT used was NOT in the official TT spare lamp kit .... I showed the service manual page to the parts guy and the first thing he said was “where did you get that, you are not allowed to have a service manual “  I explained the US law on such matters to him. The guy calmed down and built me a bespoke spare lamp kit from the service manual listing that contained more lamps, and expensive ones at that, before charging me the standard, reasonable, price of the generic spares kit.

The look on that parts guys face when he saw I had ‘priviledged’ information still makes me smile.... he was truly horrified that a member of the Public could check on his part numbers etc  Happy days.

Fraser

LOL!  -  The trend that corporations don't want a "black economy" of people fixing things has been around a long time.   I recall having a student job at a VW importer/ wholesaler, supplying cars and spares on a nationwide basis.  One day, they were clearing out the stock room of old parts, throwing them in a big skip outside.   I had started helping myself to a few parts for my old jalopy...   when the foreman came out of his office and told me off!  "These parts are to be scrapped, they may not be sold or used in any way - it affects market demand!".

So we are not just battling planned obsolescence, we are battling the fact that there is really no such thing as a "free market" in anything.

[themadhippy]

EU soldiers would still be marching in our streets

wot like the polish who came  to Britain during ww2 to get us out the shit

[CJay]

Aaaand there we go, another thread to mute because of trolling.

[SilverSolder]

What are all the brexitard^h^h^h^h^h  freedom loving leave voters going to think about staying in sync with the Brussels tyranny??

You should be grateful instead of insulting those who liberated our country. If it weren't for the Brexiteers EU soldiers would still be marching in our streets and our children would be forced to speak EUan or whatever funny language they speak over there.

I guess we could do like Farage and get an EU passport from Germany, while dropping the rest of his countrymen into a two-class society: those with an EU passport, and those who have less opportunities.  There is no way around the truth of that.   The rich and the smart find workarounds, the little guys pay.

[themadhippy]

My first experience of manufacturers giving 2 fingers to the consumer was proctor silex back in the early 1980's ,who changed  from making individual elements replaceable in there toasters to having to replace the whole internal assemble.Up until them most domestic appliances could be repaired,hoover vacuum cleaners for example were simple to  striped down(as long as you had a long phillips screwdriver) and individual parts like motor brushes or bearings replaced and work fine for another decade or 2.However once one company was seen to be getting away with it the whole repair industry slowly died.

[SilverSolder]

There is also the fact that it can be easier to manufacture than repair something.  -  that's the call an auto insurance adjuster makes when assessing if a crashed car is worth fixing, or not.

It seems that over the last couple of decades, industry has tried to get to a position where manufacturing is cheap, recycling is easy, and repairs are never worth it.   

Even if they are right, the problem is that this rubs people the wrong way.  - And they are not right...  most EEVblog members are probably pretty adept at keeping things alive way beyond the expected life.

[peter-h]

This thing is likely to get watered down to limited areas and eventually it will become irrelevant.

It's like REACH. It was supposed to force any manufacturer to accept back a product for recyling. But generally the cost of shipping the product back to them exceeds its value, and most consumers have no practical means of packaging anything sizeable, so nobody is going to do it.

Also, spares are available for a lot of stuff. For example I can buy hinges for a Miele oven which is 20 years old. The gotcha is that the hinges are almost £200. Then I have to pay for someone to change them, which is a big job because the oven has to be extracted, taken apart, etc... not an easy job.

[SilverSolder]

This thing is likely to get watered down to limited areas and eventually it will become irrelevant.

It's like REACH. It was supposed to force any manufacturer to accept back a product for recyling. But generally the cost of shipping the product back to them exceeds its value, and most consumers have no practical means of packaging anything sizeable, so nobody is going to do it.

Also, spares are available for a lot of stuff. For example I can buy hinges for a Miele oven which is 20 years old. The gotcha is that the hinges are almost £200. Then I have to pay for someone to change them, which is a big job because the oven has to be extracted, taken apart, etc... not an easy job.

Exactly, this kind of maintenance is almost only worth it if you DIY and see it as a hobby/challenge, or if the appliance is "industrial grade" and worth fixing, with a long life expectancy.

I run a bunch of old cars on a shoestring budget...  it would not be possible if I had to pay a mechanic to do all the stuff I do myself.  Sunny afternoon, a cold beer, and a wrench... 

[ferdieCX]

Four years ago, while living in Berlin, my landlord had to throw away a perfect working freezer just because the thermostat was kaput.
It used a proprietary connector that was not any more in production. Such proprietary things should be forbidden.
A few years ago, each cellular phone used a different connector for the charger. After an ultimatum from the EU to adopt a standard charger, the manufacturers quickly agreed to use the micro USB standard. 

[kripton2035]

don't be scared for apple parts... they have taken measures for it...
since 2017, all devices sold have a security chip inside. the "T2" for the mac.
if you try to make a working device out of 2-3 defective, the reassembled device will not work
the security chip will forbid it. you have to buy virgin spare parts, at a very high price, and a lot of high price tools in order to repair the first one
(and you don't need the used spare parts they can go to the bin they are unusable)
unless one day someone hack the T2 chip completely.
this can kill the used market for these computers
and I presume that all other manufacturers will do the same sooner or later.

[SilverSolder]

Four years ago, while living in Berlin, my landlord had to throw away a perfect working freezer just because the thermostat was kaput.
It used a proprietary connector that was not any more in production. Such proprietary things should be forbidden.
A few years ago, each cellular phone used a different connector for the charger. After an ultimatum from the EU to adopt a standard charger, the manufacturers quickly agreed to use the micro USB standard.

When the issue becomes visible to a majority of consumers (everyone has a phone, and charges it, and eventually get angered by the lack of a standard plug), it is easy for the politicians to hammer some common sense into industry.

The problem is that most of their "tricks" are only visible to engineers,  and even then only those engineers that get involved in the repair process for whatever reason (like your freezer example).

Really it would be useful if there was a serious consumer advocate organisation, staffed with engineers and designers, that could offer some real opposition to the greedy, useless parasites that destroy the earth by manufacturing unrepairable products.

[Alti]

Could you show me the rules that enforced that because it's not affected me?

You mean that in UK you can buy and sell parts of appliances on a scrap yard??
Lucky you, it is forbidden to buy and to sell such components here (Poland). We are obliged to return complete appliance to specialized e-waste collecting points (via the shop when you buy new appliance or dedicated collecting points or scrap yards or independent e-waste collector companies, whatever the path). A fine for disposing e-waste out of this e-waste cycle is around 1200€ here.

These are the consequences of european regulations regarding e-waste. Take a look at Directive 2012/19/EU

My country implemented these changes in 2015. The end result is that scrap yard can only buy complete appliances and must not disassemble/process them by themselves. They literally won't allow you to disassemble the dishwasher that some other guy sold them 10 minutes earlier! Then complete appliance is transported to a dedicated e-waste processing plant that has the right to recycle it (which means: shred to bits and remelt).

In conclusion - no cheap spares on scrap yards since 2015.
Is it different in other EU countries?

[SilverSolder]

Could you show me the rules that enforced that because it's not affected me?

You mean that in UK you can buy and sell parts of appliances on a scrap yard??
Lucky you, it is forbidden to buy and to sell such components here (Poland). We are obliged to return complete appliance to specialized e-waste collecting points (via the shop when you buy new appliance or dedicated collecting points or scrap yards or independent e-waste collector companies, whatever the path). A fine for disposing e-waste out of this e-waste cycle is around 1200€ here.

These are the consequences of european regulations regarding e-waste. Take a look at Directive 2012/19/EU

My country implemented these changes in 2015. The end result is that scrap yard can only buy complete appliances and must not disassemble/process them by themselves. They literally won't allow you to disassemble the dishwasher that some other guy sold them 10 minutes earlier! Then complete appliance is transported to a dedicated e-waste processing plant that has the right to recycle it (which means: shred to bits and remelt).

In conclusion - no cheap spares on scrap yards since 2015.
Is it different in other EU countries?

I think each country is allowed leeway on how to implement directives.

But, even in the US it is difficult to buy scrap appliances for parts.

The "appliance mafia" is of course behind this, they don't want an army of tinkerers keeping the old products alive beyond the date they had planned!

[amyk]

Four years ago, while living in Berlin, my landlord had to throw away a perfect working freezer just because the thermostat was kaput.
It used a proprietary connector that was not any more in production. Such proprietary things should be forbidden.

Right to repair should also naturally include right to modify. If a connector is not available I will just replace the one of the opposite gender too, with a more standard and easily available one.