Is That A Spy In Your Pocket?

[SgtRock]

Greetings EEVBees:

--Please see the below link for an article about how your phone my be giving out information about you (your exact location for instance) to the person you are talking to.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2810001/posts

--Given the reputed ability of cell phones to me turned on (with no notification to user), and monitored, it might make sense to keep you phone in a "Faraday Cage" (perhaps a foil lined bag), or at least take the battery out.

--The above advice is for law enforcement and security professionals, as well as those subject to military and industrial espionage. I assume that terrorists and master criminals already know about this.

“Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people."
W. C. Fields (William Claude Dukenfield) 1880 1946

Best Regards
Clear Ether

[Mint.]

And that's why I don't use facebook. Way too many privacy issues.

[alm]

That sounds like a useful suggestion, blocking RF signals to a wireless device. How about burying it in a safe underground? Or crushing it with a hammer? That will also prevent any tracking, and is about as useful.

MintyCondition: don't worry, they'll track you anyway through all those Facebook like buttons that are everywhere. Just a cookie is enough, no need to have an account.

[McMonster]

The true problem is that the technology evolves faster than the general public can comprehend it. I work as a sysadmin and I try to defend myself from all this crap all the way I can, but it's not an easy task. And for an average person who doesn't want to live like in the early 20th century it's nearly impossible. Sad if you ask me.

[Mint.]

That sounds like a useful suggestion, blocking RF signals to a wireless device. How about burying it in a safe underground? Or crushing it with a hammer? That will also prevent any tracking, and is about as useful.

MintyCondition: don't worry, they'll track you anyway through all those Facebook like buttons that are everywhere. Just a cookie is enough, no need to have an account.

My android phone has the ability to turn off data transfer in the background, I think that's what stops me from being tracked.

And damn, I dislike facebook so much!

[EEVblog]

The true problem is that the technology evolves faster than the general public can comprehend it. I work as a sysadmin and I try to defend myself from all this crap all the way I can, but it's not an easy task. And for an average person who doesn't want to live like in the early 20th century it's nearly impossible. Sad if you ask me.

I do wonder what would happen if we didn't register Sagan's birth, could he eventually live completely off the grid? 

But I think we blew it when we succumbed to the blood test sample at birth, now the government has his DNA... 

Dave.

[McMonster]

The true problem is that the technology evolves faster than the general public can comprehend it. I work as a sysadmin and I try to defend myself from all this crap all the way I can, but it's not an easy task. And for an average person who doesn't want to live like in the early 20th century it's nearly impossible. Sad if you ask me.

I do wonder what would happen if we didn't register Sagan's birth, could he eventually live completely off the grid? 

But I think we blew it when we succumbed to the blood test sample at birth, now the government has his DNA... 

Dave.

If there's no trace of him on Facebook then he doesn't exist anyway. Otherwise he's in the same 1984 as the rest of us.

[SgtRock]

Dear Alm:

--Ahem, if you were to use a foil bag rather than burying the phone in a safe underground or smashing it with a hammer, you would be able to take it out of the bag a put it back into operation rather more easily, don't you think.

--As I pointed out, Law Enforcement, Military, Bank Officers, and High Tech Companies are subject to espionage from time to time, as are potential victims of rape and violence, and may not want to be tapped or for their locations to be tracked. Did you read the article? Do you really think it is stupid to be well informed on how to take precautions.

--Also, there are ways to prevent cookie tracking. No doubt you think people who do are morons also. Indeed why use passwords, they can just get around them with a trojan or key logger.

--I do not believe I would recommend your clearance for classified access with any government or company that I like.

--Let me be clear. I was only advocating the "foil lined bag" on an as needed basis, not a permanent basis. Also, I was presuming that you read the indicated article and would interpret my remarks as being related to the article which was the subject of the post. I think most of the people who viewed this this thread were able to deduce this. I guess I should have been more clear. I was not advocating keeping the phone in a bag in perpetuity. These results, obviously, could be achieved by just not having a phone, yes?

"He was born ignorant, and has been losing ground ever since."
Fred Allen 1894 1956

Best Regards
Clear Ether

[alm]

In my opinion the article is shallow and naive. The suggestion is that disabling tracking in the Facebook app is sufficient. People who consider themselves well informed after that article should really dig deeper. Due to the way cell phone networks work, anyone with access to the records from your phone company will have fairly accurate location data. Plus there are all kinds of neat backdoors.

I concur with McMonster: stop being part of 21st century society or accept that privacy is dead and get over it. All thanks to modern technology.

[Bored@Work]

I concur with McMonster: stop being part of 21st century society or accept that privacy is dead and get over it. All thanks to modern technology.

That's like saying accept slavery (remember, slavery was a new and modern concept when invented and you had to go with the times, didn't you?). No, these things come in waves. You might think privacy is dead, but as long as you resist the constant snooping just a little bit it isn't and it might come into fashion again at some time.

Turn of your cell phone from time to time. And when you develop communication devices and systems add a little privacy here and there. If you are tasked with administering computer data, add a little privacy here and there. And maybe one day it comes back.

If you however truly think privacy is dead, please publish all you medical records (how was you last prostate exam going?), all your financial records, your emails, and if you still write letters (i.g. page(s) of paper going into an envelope) drop that and write postcards only. Put your bank account number into the open and publish your financial details. And don't forget to publish that family secret of cousin John and that ... *ups*.

If you think privacy is dead then live by your words. If you don't, join the resistance.

[Mechatrommer]

this is minority report. is done by antisocial people who make the world insecure. "knowledge is power"

[EEVblog]

I concur with McMonster: stop being part of 21st century society or accept that privacy is dead and get over it. All thanks to modern technology.

Privacy ain't dead, but it's true that you have to give up a lot these days and are practically forced into many things just to live, work, and play in modern society.
Try doing many modern things without a credit card for example, you can't even stay at many hotels without one.

Dave.

[SgtRock]

Dear Alm:

--Please see below link about woman being harassed by convicted kidnapper. See quote below.

"I figure, if he's done all this from in prison, what's he's going to do when he gets out?" Gesik said.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20111121/D9R50SUG0.html

--What say you? Should this women be concerned about this man getting out and determining her real time location? Or should she and everyone else, "Just get over it."?

"If you build a better mousetrap, you will catch better mice."
George Gobel 1919 1991
 
Best Regards
Clear Ether

[FreeThinker]

The true problem is that the technology evolves faster than the general public can comprehend it. I work as a sysadmin and I try to defend myself from all this crap all the way I can, but it's not an easy task. And for an average person who doesn't want to live like in the early 20th century it's nearly impossible. Sad if you ask me.

I do wonder what would happen if we didn't register Sagan's birth, could he eventually live completely off the grid? 

But I think we blew it when we succumbed to the blood test sample at birth, now the government has his DNA... 

Dave.

You would be committing a criminal offence. All births must by law be registered within 6 weeks (in the uk anyway). A log is kept of all births by the medical authority's and they we hunt you down if you fail to comply. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING>

[saturation]

We are all constantly under the assault by anyone requiring information.  As B@W says, we still have oases of privacy, but even they are under assault.  So, its a game between them and us.

However, as the quote suggests, the worst anyone can do to themselves is post social information on Facebook, or similar sites or processes.  The psychosocial data left seems fairly trivial but much can be mined about your psyche that is far more revealing than tracking cookies and IP address logs of website you visit.  Unlike inferential and statistical processes of your visiting habits and web site visits, posting specifics: your favorite color, places you visit, photos of your home, relatives etc., leave very little covered. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook#Data_mining

Facebook terms of service and privacy policy are useless: once the data is collected, the damage is done.  All Facebook need do is change its incorporation and all policy is no longer binding.

Just to list a few wierdness no one seems to read:

http://www.facebook.com/terms.php

Sharing Your Content and Information

You own all of the content and information you post on Facebook, and you can control how it is shared through your privacy and application settings. In addition:

    For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License). This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it.
    When you delete IP content, it is deleted in a manner similar to emptying the recycle bin on a computer. However, you understand that removed content may persist in backup copies for a reasonable period of time (but will not be available to others).
    When you use an application, your content and information is shared with the application.  We require applications to respect your privacy, and your agreement with that application will control how the application can use, store, and transfer that content and information.  (To learn more about Platform, read our Privacy Policy and Platform Page.)
    When you publish content or information using the Public setting, it means that you are allowing everyone, including people off of Facebook, to access and use that information, and to associate it with you (i.e., your name and profile picture).
    We always appreciate your feedback or other suggestions about Facebook, but you understand that we may use them without any obligation to compensate you for them (just as you have no obligation to offer them).
     

Safety

We do our best to keep Facebook safe, but we cannot guarantee it.

"

Dear Alm:

--Please see below link about woman being harassed by convicted kidnapper. See quote below.

"I figure, if he's done all this from in prison, what's he's going to do when he gets out?" Gesik said.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20111121/D9R50SUG0.html

--What say you? Should this women be concerned about this man getting out and determining her real time location? Or should she and everyone else, "Just get over it."?

"If you build a better mousetrap, you will catch better mice."
George Gobel 1919 1991
 
Best Regards
Clear Ether

[tnt]

You should register him several times under several identities ... so he can choose from them depending on what he does ... (one identity for his family, another for his drug cartel, a third one for his plan to take power in Australia, ...)

[alm]

My statement that privacy dead (which is a reference to a fairly well-known talk by a PI about this exact subject) is not because that's my wish or because I consider privacy a bad thing, but because I consider modern technology to be incompatible with privacy. Let's see what modern technology gives us:

• Computers are usually set up to log each and every transaction. Want to know how much Dave spent on gas with his credit card in Melbourne for the past year? It's just a database query away (assuming he uses his CC for buying gas).
• Almost free storage which allows us to store information almost forever. There's no need to throw away old information if storage keeps getting cheaper.
• Databases with personal information don't exactly have a perfect security track record, so some are likely available to anyone who pays.
• Computer systems which are very good at searching this information, and combining information from different sources. Combining databases would have been very labor-intensive when it was still on paper, now it's just a few commands
• Some of the largest and most influential companies, like Google and Facebook, are entirely dependent on profiling their consumers. That's what allows them to sell ads, the fact that Google (attempts to) know(s) that you're more likely to buy an oscilloscope than a magic rock that's supposed to absorb RF.
• These companies have developed some very efficient algorithms to deal with the extremely large data sets they collect, like MapReduce. These algorithms are not limited to their web search service, I'm sure they also apply them to user data.
• Modern cloud storage (eg. Google file system) are aimed at redundancy and keeping data, so confirming that some data was deleted is almost impossible. I believe Google has it somewhere in their terms of service that any data you delete may remain present on their servers for some time.
• Even purposely anonymized data, like the Netflix challenge, is fairly easy to connect back to the original people. I believe some researches used the data to show that a certain person (not identified) was likely gay, something that may be very damaging in some communities unfortunately.
• (Today's) society is completely focused on convenience and short term gain, they will give Facebook access to all their email so they can to cousin Annie.
• Laws are about the only thing preventing a complete free for all, and as usual they're slow to keep up with technology, and with this much money behind data collection, I'm not sure how much help we can expect from this direction.
• Governments actually love collecting data, how many countries are fingerprinting their citizens if they apply for a passport? Is this data secure and only accessible by authorized people?

Sure, you can temporarily block cell phone reception/transmission. This is only useful under very limited circumstances. The minute you turn it on 'they' can locate you, assuming they're powerful enough to have access to the location data in the first place. Even with your cell phone in a tinfoil bag, your car's license plate may be scanned if you enter a major city. Your face may be recognized by pervasive CCTV cameras in many cities (London is probably on top). I believe someone on British TV tried to reach a certain point in London without being caught on camera, by taking all kinds of detours and back roads. In the end he was caught by a camera in a trash can. Even a tin foil hat is not going to protect you, does anyone make tinfoil balaclavas?

This does not mean we should make it worse and publish all our secrets on Facebook, but I'm not expecting a determined individual, let alone a determined organization, to have much trouble finding most personal information. It's just in too many places.

[McMonster]

I think the most of us agree that privacy is no longer safe with all this technology around. But there's one thing that we're missing in this discussion. Anyone with enough determination (which basically equals to money) can get all the information on you, but do we really try to protect them at all? Just giving up on this is the worst we can do, this means we're hopelessly lost already.

And just another example of "national privacy policy". There's a law in Poland (might be related to some EU law, but I'm not sure) that obligates all ISPs in the country to keep the record of all the traffic of every user (just the fact of communication between hosts, not data) for... 5 years. This means that the police can check what URLs McMonster was viewing and after 5 years from now they'll se he was browsing eevblog.com. Fortunately they still need a proper warrant, but this doesn't make me feel very comfortable anyway.

[EEVblog]

• Governments actually love collecting data, how many countries are fingerprinting their citizens if they apply for a passport? Is this data secure and only accessible by authorized people?

I remember the first time the US fingerprinted me for just visiting their country.
I seriously contemplated turning around and heading back, never to return, on principle.
Unfortunately that's the price I ultimately paid for visiting the US, and I still feel disgusted
They'd better not try and pull that shit here...

Which other countries fingerprint their citizens or visitors as a matter of course I wonder?

Dave.

[McMonster]

• Governments actually love collecting data, how many countries are fingerprinting their citizens if they apply for a passport? Is this data secure and only accessible by authorized people?

I remember the first time the US fingerprinted me for just visiting their country.
I seriously contemplated turning around and heading back, never to return, on principle.
Unfortunately that's the price I ultimately paid for visiting the US, and I still feel disgusted
They'd better not try and pull that shit here...

Which other countries fingerprint their citizens or visitors as a matter of course I wonder?

Dave.

Japan fingerprints all visitors.

[alm]

I believe US requires new passports to contain biometric information if they are to be used within the US. This has prompted many countries to include it in their standard passport. Fingerprinting is just one of the options, however.

I think the most of us agree that privacy is no longer safe with all this technology around. But there's one thing that we're missing in this discussion. Anyone with enough determination (which basically equals to money) can get all the information on you, but do we really try to protect them at all? Just giving up on this is the worst we can do, this means we're hopelessly lost already.

I agree, I'm not advocating giving up what little we have left (just don't expect it to be very effective). Privacy is already pretty sick, however; do we have any reason to expect it to get better in the future?

And just another example of "national privacy policy". There's a law in Poland (might be related to some EU law, but I'm not sure) that obligates all ISPs in the country to keep the record of all the traffic of every user (just the fact of communication between hosts, not data) for... 5 years. This means that the police can check what URLs McMonster was viewing and after 5 years from now they'll se he was browsing eevblog.com. Fortunately they still need a proper warrant, but this doesn't make me feel very comfortable anyway.

I believe the EU requires 6 months. The Polish government probably decided that it was convenient for them to keep it around a little longer, in case they need it. To find all people that supported Wikileaks, for example, if they'd publish something damaging to the Polish government.

[Mechatrommer]

This means that the police can check what URLs McMonster was viewing and after 5 years from now they'll se he was browsing eevblog.com. Fortunately they still need a proper warrant, but this doesn't make me feel very comfortable anyway.

they must have a good reason to get the warrant 5 years from now . gov get dna and fingerprints to ease criminal tracking later on. they are not going to pursue you for unreasonable tax. unless the gov is a crook.