Author Topic: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff  (Read 2318 times)

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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« on: November 22, 2022, 01:37:43 am »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/11/21/sunak-tells-nhs-embrace-robot-workers-prepares-sack-staff/
Quote
Sunak tells NHS to embrace robot workers as it prepares to sack staff
Prime Minister pledges to ‘radically innovate’ health service to drive up economic growth


By Szu Ping Chan 21 November 2022 • 6:07pm
Rishi Sunak CBI

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak delivered a keynote speech at the CBI conference on Monday CREDIT: TOLGA AKMEN/EPA-EFE/Shutterstock
Rishi Sunak has urged the NHS to embrace the use of robots as the health service prepares to cut its workforce by half in a drastic attempt to cut costs.

The Prime Minister said supporting innovation was a "defining focus" of his premiership, as he described more automation and investment in robotics as "low hanging fruit" that will drive up pay and economic growth "quickly". "If we can get that right with more robotics and automation, then we can drive up productivity. It reduces some of the pressure on labour, and creates good jobs for people," he told an audience of business leaders in Birmingham.

It came as Mr Sunak pledged to "radically innovate" Britain's health service with new technologies in a “bold" move that would challenge "conventional wisdom” in healthcare reform. Ministers are drawing up plans to slash NHS England’s 6,500 bureaucrats by as much as half and to remove a swathe of targets to allow hospitals more control over how money is spent.

Mr Sunak told the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) annual conference that "better care requires innovation" in drugs and new technologies. The Prime Minister also ruled out closer trade ties with the European Union if it means following diktats from Brussels, but signalled that the Government would open the door to more highly skilled migrants to boost the economy.

In the clearest indication yet that the UK will not seek a Swiss-style deal that relies on following European rules, the Prime Minister said regulatory freedom was one of the biggest benefits of leaving the bloc. "Let me be unequivocal about this," he said. "Under my leadership, I will not pursue any relationship with Europe that relies on alignment with EU laws." Mr Sunak also said that Brexit had enabled "proper control of our borders", vowing to tackle illegal immigration and "give the British people trust and confidence that the system works and is fair."

He said: "I voted for Brexit. I believe in Brexit and I know that Brexit can deliver, and is already delivering, enormous benefits and opportunities for the country. Migration being an immediate one, where we have proper control of our borders and are able to have a conversation with our country about the type of migration that we want and need." The Government is relying on a surge in net migration to help drive growth as innovation slows. The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) predicted net migration would settle at 205,000 a year from 2026 onwards. This is significantly higher than the Home Secretary Suella Braverman's long-term goal to reduce net migration to below 100,000.

Growing NHS waiting lists have left a record 2.5m people unable to work because of long-term sickness, with an extra 133,000 people falling out of the workforce for health reasons in the three months to September alone. The Prime Minister also said it was important that UK rules governing financial services and trade were "fit for the future". He added: "Having the regulatory freedom to do that is an important opportunity of Brexit." Andy Briggs, chief executive of insurance giant Phoenix Group, which owns Standard Life, said EU red tape has contributed to an investment deficit in the UK. He said: "Pension saving in the UK is the second largest in the world at £3.4 trillion. But only 7pc is invested in [UK] productive assets. The average for the seven largest nations globally is 19pc." Mr Briggs said the Government's decision to depart from EU rules governing insurers would free up to £50bn of capital to invest in the UK economy. "The regulations were getting in the way of that, and those regulations are being changed," he said.

Mr Sunak also noted that the UK was in discussions about joining a global trade pact with some of the world's biggest economies, including Canada and Japan. He described the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), which was signed in 2018, as a "fantastic opportunity for the UK."

So they want to replace staff with robots.

Okay they don't have to pay wages and pension.

The staff like nurses from what I read are working really hard and beyond on an already overstretched service. They actually work. I'd expect them to only bring in robots to assist not to replace an already overstretched workforce let alone tried and tested or has it?

Actually I see there is one:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-57756988
Quote
NHS hospital uses robot technology
The NHS is facing unprecedented challenges with long waiting lists for treatment and staff shortages.

But could robots be part of the solution?

A hospital in Bristol is already using robots to improve efficiency in some behind the scenes roles and is now experimenting with how robots might interact with patients

On the other hand how much are these robots going to cost in buying them and maintaining them.

Doesn't sound right to me cutting staff under a pledge to save money but willing  to "buy" electronic substitutes and I don't see anything about the costings yet.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/health/london-hospital-robots-costing-18-21282182
Quote
The London hospital where robots costing £1.8 million are carrying out surgery
Surgeons predict that within ten years robotic surgery will be used in every hospital

Surgical robots are changing how NHS hospitals operate by cutting recovery times and improving outcomes - but the equipment comes with a hefty price tag. Surgeons predict that within 10 years standard surgery as we know it will die out. Machines will become the norm as patients will demand them due to the improved quality of surgery they provide.

The machines used to be called master slave systems, which - for obvious reasons - is no longer allowed, but it explains the principle behind them. The surgeon sits in a seat, which they call a console, and moves their hands to control the machinery.

The robot hands mimic the movements, translating larger movements of human hands into much smaller movements of miniature instruments inside the patient. So far there are 115 Intuitive da Vinci surgical systems across the country. All of which operate on prostate cancer and 70 per cent can perform kidney and bladder surgery. There is also an increase in mechanical operations of hysterectomy and more thoracic surgery in the lungs and general surgery work including bowel surgery.

Explaining the benefits of robotic surgery, he said: “The robot allows the surgeon to have more precision, dexterity, less tremor and ultimately, in most cases, that will equate to a higher quality of surgery in terms of better cancer outcomes.

Sounds like claims to me. I expect the surgeon to be skilled and know how to handle the instruments and how can they just make these claims that it will be more precise, will results in high quality surgery. I remembered when they tried something like this with mesh surgery to speed up surgery times and it did work but with the plastic deteriorating many years later and patients begging to have it removed.

Surgeon -> knife -> skin. (touch and feel)
to
Surgeon -> Joystick -> knife -> skin (no touch and feel)

So surgeon has to control not just the knife but the robot handling the knife.
Also are they not going to feel anything for other signs as they operate?
(I was told they do this for observations correct me if you think I am wrong)

If it is used just to "save" money with these claims and I don't trust it.

https://www.intuitive.com/en-gb/products-and-services/da-vinci/systems


Just found this:
https://www.autoaccident.com/da-vinci-robotic-surgical-system-injuries-and-deaths.html
Quote
Physical Injuries Caused by the da Vinci Robotic Surgical System
Breakdown of Adverse Incidents
A breakdown of the adverse events recorded by the FDA are as follows:

2,000 total adverse events that involved injury to the patient
17,000 events due to da Vinci Robotic Surgical System malfunction
294 fatalities

Improper Marketing
The FDA issued a warning letter for the da Vinci Robotic Surgical System in 2013 for improper marketing. This concerned its uses for thyroid surgery.

Poor Training of Surgeons
One of the major problems associated with the da Vinci Robotic Surgical System is the number of training surgeons undergo
Attached the whole page to image file:

What do you think?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 01:55:13 am by MrMobodies »
 

Online Benta

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2022, 01:46:13 am »
Well, you've "Taken Back Control".
Good luck.

 

Online themadhippy

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2022, 02:02:24 am »
Going by the government and nhs past history with IT and technology it will take at least 4 times the timescale and cost 7x the projected budget before being quietly scrapped.
 
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Offline redkitedesign

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2022, 02:45:25 am »
Surgeon -> knife -> skin. (touch and feel)
to
Surgeon -> Joystick -> knife -> skin (no touch and feel)

There are a few cases where the (partial, haptic feedback is a thing) loss of touch and feel is less important than the advantages of robot assisted surgery:

- When the surgery is hyper-specialistic, and the only experienced surgeon is on the other side off the continent
- When the robot is used to make microscopic movements, much smaller than a surgeon can make (e.q. eye surgery)

Off course, both use cases do not decrease cost or staffing requirement, quite the opposite: Due to the robot making these procedures possible in the first place, extra staffing is needed to care for the patient.
Without the robot, the patient would just remain untreated (and perhaps die).
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2022, 03:05:53 am »
I don't mind the robot as an optional to assist but not used to save money and substitute staff.
https://www.ft.com/content/5230b9c4-fd3a-11e8-b03f-bc62050f3c4e
Quote
The robot gives fine control, but I can’t feel if I’m damaging anything by pulling on the tissues or snapping strings . . . It’s like trying to write without being able to feel the pen or the paper

Richard Trimlett, cardiac surgeon

The current generation of robots lacks tactile sensation, which is why it has failed to meet expectations, he says. Robotics is commonplace in operating theatres in the form of consoles and hand controls that enable surgeons to perform keyhole operations using robot arms through small incisions.

https://medcitynews.com/2021/07/hospitals-sue-surgical-robot-maker-saying-it-forced-them-into-restrictive-contracts/
Quote
Hospitals sue surgical robot maker, saying it forced them into restrictive contracts
Health systems filed two separate class action lawsuits against surgical robot maker Intuitive Surgical. They allege that the company used its market power to force them to sign restrictive repair contracts and buy replacement parts at high prices.
By ELISE REUTER Post a comment / Jul 14, 2021 at 6:02 PM

Several hospitals have filed class action antitrust lawsuits against Intuitive Surgical, one of the largest surgical robot makers, alleging that it used its market power to force them to sign restrictive repair contracts and buy replacement parts at inflated prices.

Despite limited evidence that they work better than other minimally-invasive surgeries, more hospitals are buying surgical robots. As of last year, Intuitive had installed 3,720 of its da Vinci surgical robots in the U.S., according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. These devices are expensive, costing up to $2.5 million each, and often come with thousands of dollars in additional annual costs.

In a complaint filed earlier this month, 13-hospital system Franciscan Health said it had to sign a five-year service contract,  which could be voided if it sought out third-party repair services for its da Vinci surgical robots. These services cost between $80,000 and $190,000 per year.

According to the lawsuit, as first reported on by Axios, one customer that had tried to use a third-party robot repair service found its device stopped functioning during an operation, forcing the surgeons to finish the surgery manually.

Franciscan Health alleged that some hospitals who try to use third-party services receive cease-and-desist letters from Intuitive threatening to refuse future maintenance, and in some cases, even threatening to disable the robot.

In a separate lawsuit filed this month, New York-based Kaleida Health said independent robotic repair companies also received cease-and-desist letters demanding that they not contact its customers to offer repair services.

Both lawsuits focused on limitations in maintaining and re-using EndoWrist surgical instruments that come with the robots. Each one comes with a series of attachments that resemble traditional laparoscopic surgical tools, such as a scalpel and scissors, but they also have an embedded chip to track how many times the device is used. In some cases, the instruments could only be used 10 times before the hospital had to purchase more devices, both lawsuits claimed.

...

I think all of that time and money should go into training the surgeons to be skilled and experienced on the patients as a first, not allow a robotic company to manipulate and control a hospital. So they are putting the surgeons ability to perform at the discretion of a robot and the company behind it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 03:11:25 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2022, 03:56:21 am »
Surgeon -> knife -> skin. (touch and feel)
to
Surgeon -> Joystick -> knife -> skin (no touch and feel)
There are a few cases where the (partial, haptic feedback is a thing) loss of touch and feel is less important than the advantages of robot assisted surgery:

- When the surgery is hyper-specialistic, and the only experienced surgeon is on the other side off the continent
- When the robot is used to make microscopic movements, much smaller than a surgeon can make (e.q. eye surgery)
Note that those sorts of telesurgery machines do retain "immediate" haptic feedback, or even amplified! for finer work to balance the mechanical advantage of smaller movements.

Not really a robot but does save on travel/down time of specialist surgeons as you say.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2022, 04:02:12 am »
This sounds nice.  :-DD

So now getting rid of human workers is going to drive economic growth. That is genius.

Meanwhile, children are employed in western countries, and it doesn't seem to bother that many. Does it drive economic growth too? Do robots get us more economic growth than children, or how is it?

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-hyundai-subsidiary-has-used-child-labor-alabama-factory-2022-07-22/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/11/nebraska-packers-sanitation-child-labor-animal-slaughter
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 05:02:15 am by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline xmris

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2022, 09:11:58 am »
I know a guy working at a uni r&d things like robot medicine dispensers, sort of a smart tray on wheels that moves around a hospital and dispense medicines to the patients.

The whole story is just about £££££, at the same time they install wireless IV pumps/heart monitors with un-secure menus - oh yeah the last time I was in hospital was fun to check those menus, mainly because the heart monitor's alarm was annoying ;-)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 09:13:31 am by xmris »
READY.
 

Offline M0HZH

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2022, 12:37:24 pm »
...
The staff like nurses from what I read are working really hard and beyond on an already overstretched service. They actually work. I'd expect them to only bring in robots to assist not to replace an already overstretched workforce let alone tried and tested or has it?
...

Having had to deal with NHS recently I can tell you they are working far from "really hard" and no one can be bothered to do their job with any sense of urgency even in A&E.

What most likely happened is because of Brexit the more hard-working, competent people in the NHS have left to places where they feel more appreciated.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2022, 01:29:32 pm »
Having had to deal with NHS recently I can tell you they are working far from "really hard" and no one can be bothered to do their job with any sense of urgency even in A&E.

What most likely happened is because of Brexit the more hard-working, competent people in the NHS have left to places where they feel more appreciated.

And yet my experience is the opposite.  The A&E staff are overworked and facing burnout.  Maybe they don't seem to be "bothered" but the reality is they have a huge case load and not enough time in their shift to do the work assigned.  They are quitting in droves because of this, it truly is a crisis right now.  You have graphs like this:



For Scotland but the pattern is similar across the UK.

COVID did a proper number on the NHS,  Brexit certainly hasn't helped for sure.
 

Offline snarkysparky

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2022, 01:35:20 pm »
A lot of really stupid people overestimate what robots can do.   They buy the manufacturers hype, then they buy the systems, then they find all the hidden issues, then they scrap the hardware and beg staff to come back.

Rinse and repeat.
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2022, 02:17:45 pm »
Quote
The A&E staff are overworked and facing burnout. 
All part of the master plan to prove the nhs isn't fit for purpose,best we privatise it
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2022, 03:05:51 pm »
Is  Was that guy a doctor? How he even knows how hospitals operate  :wtf:
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2022, 07:51:44 pm »
A lot of really stupid people overestimate what robots can do.   They buy the manufacturers hype, then they buy the systems, then they find all the hidden issues, then they scrap the hardware and beg staff to come back.

Rinse and repeat.

And it's all laid out in the 4th industrial revolution bullshit. They are all following this crap to the letter as though it was the holy bible. :-DD
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2022, 09:54:55 pm »
I guess us Brits should apologise/apologize to our American compatriots who are thinking, what the feck is a national health service anyway? The answer is, it's like Medicare, but burns a lot more money. The British national health service is a graveyard of huge IT projects that burnt billions on consultants and delivered nothing. That's managment consultants, not medical ones. The notion of using VR, AI and cybernetics does have it's place, such as in the 'virtual OR'. Reality check, a robot still cannot replace the 'hands in guts' dexterity of a surgeon. But this story sure makes a good ten minute sound bite for the UK's rich kid ex-Goldman Sachs banker Prime Minister.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2022, 10:13:37 pm »
I guess us Brits should apologise/apologize to our American compatriots who are thinking, what the feck is a national health service anyway? The answer is, it's like Medicare, but burns a lot more money. The British national health service is a graveyard of huge IT projects that burnt billions on consultants and delivered nothing. That's managment consultants, not medical ones. The notion of using VR, AI and cybernetics does have it's place, such as in the 'virtual OR'. Reality check, a robot still cannot replace the 'hands in guts' dexterity of a surgeon. But this story sure makes a good ten minute sound bite for the UK's rich kid ex-Goldman Sachs banker Prime Minister.
LOL, I think you have no clue how bad US healthcare is. It's spending way more money than NHS, yet there is no free or affordable healthcare at all. It's extremely expensive, including super expensive drugs. Effing insulin costs >$1000 per month, and becomes 10 times cheaper once you cross the border to Canada or Mexico, and it will be exactly the same stuff from the same manufacturer. It's so stupid some people cannot afford it, thus are rationing it or don't use at all and then die. Prime time on TV is full of healthcare insurance ads though. And if you don't have one, pray god you don't ever need to be hospitalized. Not unheard of people going bankrupt and losing their house after visiting a hospital. Not that insurance will necessarily save you. They will probably find some pre-existing condition or your illness will be excluded in a fine print.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 10:29:22 pm by wraper »
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2022, 10:31:20 pm »
Of course this would have to be corrected for respective cost of living, otherwise the raw figures don't make much sense. But admittedly the about top 10 would have relatively similar cost of living so they are comparable. (The rest, not so much.)

You're mentioning one reason for the huge US expenses being the cost of drugs. That's an interesting point - do we actually have more detailed figures for how health expenses are distributed? (Such as cost of drugs, wages of healthcare professionals, cost of infrastructure, etc.)
 

Online wraper

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2022, 10:40:47 pm »
Of course this would have to be corrected for respective cost of living, otherwise the raw figures don't make much sense. But admittedly the about top 10 would have relatively similar cost of living so they are comparable. (The rest, not so much.)

You're mentioning one reason for the huge US expenses being the cost of drugs. That's an interesting point - do we actually have more detailed figures for how health expenses are distributed? (Such as cost of drugs, wages of healthcare professionals, cost of infrastructure, etc.)
The difference with other largest spenders it that their healthcare is either free or cheap (especially in comparison with US). So while spending much more, US is doing much worse.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 10:43:32 pm by wraper »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2022, 11:06:53 pm »
I guess us Brits should apologise/apologize to our American compatriots who are thinking, what the feck is a national health service anyway? The answer is, it's like Medicare, but burns a lot more money. The British national health service is a graveyard of huge IT projects that burnt billions on consultants and delivered nothing.

You are talking complete bollocks.  Utter, complete bollocks. And while NHS Digital has had it's fair share of bad projects, most of those are historical.  The current Digital team is rather good - think the NHS website for instance - or the integration with things like the COVID app.  The parts that are rubbish are the bits that are private, like linking with GP surgeries for appointments and the like, but that's a far more difficult problem to square as GP surgeries are run at arms length from the NHS for historical reasons predating the NHS.  Just this morning I had to call my GP surgery and got stuck in a loop on the phone system due to their buggy equipment and software... but that's a small private surgery for you.

The NHS is far from perfect, but it is a pretty efficient system for the outcomes it provides.   The NHS is however going to have to reckon with the aftereffects of COVID, a population which is more unwell (long COVID, other post illness effects, depression/anxiety/etc.) and with staffing shortages, it will be a rough decade.  It needs more money, because the population needs treatment.  Yet it'll still provide excellent value for money compared to the madness that is the American healthcare system.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 11:08:47 pm by tom66 »
 
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Offline AndyBeez

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Re: Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2022, 10:01:36 am »
Again, I apologize to our non UK forum members for the rantings over such a parochial subject. Indeed, the US healthcare system is a disaster. I remember an American coworker telling me how much he was spending on health insurance for his family. I thought the figure quoted was per year. Nope, that's per month. Ouch.

btw, the UK's NHS Covid tracking app (latest ios and android versions supported only) was a 100% clusterf*k. You'll be able to read more about who burnt the money on this project when the UK Covid Inquiry reports sometime in 2023/24...27?
 


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