EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: mcinque on February 23, 2019, 05:25:27 pm
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Without taking this into politics, I wonder if will be possible and economically susteinable for EU customers like me, after the 29 march Brexit "no deal" as all expect at this point, continue to purchase components, materials and instruments from RS-Components (and other UK based resellers).
Maybe it will raise only the shipment costs and delivery times?
Maybe we'll see a raise also in pricing?
I find some components and products only at RS and it would be a pity to lose their shop.
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I see two scenarios:
1: RS relocates to the EU (which is the sensible thing to do if they want to survive).
2: Prices increase, and you'll have a lot of work with customs.
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You should worry, but as this point there's literally no one in the world who knows what will happen in two month's time. As Benta assesses correctly, it's likely the companies involved will take whatever measures are required to service their markets conveniently. In the end they're profit driven and not taking steps to rectify whatever trouble is thrown their way isn't in their best interest.
It may take a while, though. I can imagine companies not being eager to act and invest millions before the actual situation is clear and somewhat permanently resolved.
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Hello,
I would not worry.
there is already a shop in Germany:
RS Components GmbH
Hessenring 13b, 64546 Mörfelden-Walldorf
Although usually I get on one order
1 package from Mörfelden
3 packages from different locations in UK
So probably only the delivery time will increase
with best regards
Andreas
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Radio Spares operate in many countries, so you can still buy in Europe. Farnell have a 'brass plate' office in Ireland, but most stock is UK based, with some in Europe.
There will be problems, no matter what happens.
For example, in the event of a no deal Brexit. Companies operating in the EU who are incorporated in th UK or who's *parent* company is incorporated in the UK will no longer me able to trade. This has not been widely broadcast. If they wish to continue trading will have to re incorporate within the EU. This creates a huge administration overhead. New company, VAT, employer numbers and all that entails...
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2: Prices increase, and you'll have a lot of work with customs.
Why would you have "a lot" of work with customs, and increased prices?
We buy almost everything from Digikey, USA, because it seems to offer the best mix of being cheap enough, good service, and good inventory. FYI, USA is not part of EU. There is absolutely zero customs hassle. Free shipping. Everything's handled automatically by the shipping company. And, they have a bank account in Europe, and they can sell with no VAT to the EU customers, like any EU-based company.
Why would post-Brexit RS be different from Digikey?
Why Digikey has't relocated to EU, if being in EU is so important?
So maybe there is this option:
3) They'll continue doing business like every other non-EU distributor does now, possibly by opening a minimized EU branch office somewhere. Edit: As others have informed, this has already been taken care of, as usual with big firms.
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RS shouldn't be a problem, they have a lot of warehouses and local HQs all over Europe. E.g. I have one about 30km away here in Beauvais and they have about 2-3 depots in France alone.
There may be shipping issues for things that would normally come out of UK's warehouse for a while, but I wouldn't expect anything big or longterm. If anyone is going to survive the brexit chaos, it is going to be the large retailers like RS which have both means and ways to maintain bases in multiple countries.
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2: Prices increase, and you'll have a lot of work with customs.
Why would you have "a lot" of work with customs, and increased prices?
We buy almost everything from Digikey, USA, because it seems to offer the best mix of being cheap enough, good service, and good inventory. FYI, USA is not part of EU. There is absolutely zero customs hassle. Free shipping. Everything's handled automatically by the shipping company. And, they have a bank account in Europe, and they can sell with no VAT to the EU customers, like any EU-based company
Well, with Digikey it depends HUGELY on the country you are in. When I lived in Switzerland (which isn't even in the EU) and Denmark I had the same experience as you. Digikey, no problem.
However, once I have moved to France, Digikey is an enormous hassle, you get constantly hit with customs handling fees by UPS (or who are they using to do the shipping), they bother you for ITAR stuff even for ridiculous things like PIC micros, credit card problems, you name it.
So this is a real problem.
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However, once I have moved to France, Digikey is an enormous hassle, you get constantly hit with customs handling fees by UPS (or who are they using to do the shipping), they bother you for ITAR stuff even for ridiculous things like PIC micros, credit card problems, you name it.
So this is a real problem.
Interesting - in Finland, everything works perfectly out-of-box with Digikey, UPS does the whole customs clearence hassle transparently, and even the billing works with an EU-based company. So Digikey's completely wrapped to work like any EU company. You don't even need to use credit card, you can get an account and pay to an European (German, if my memory serves me right, but it might be somewhere else inside EU) account.
Interesting to hear you still have an issue in France.
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Why would you have "a lot" of work with customs, and increased prices?
Why would post-Brexit RS be different from Digikey?
Why Digikey has't relocated to EU, if being in EU is so important?
Ever heard of trade agreements? The US has such with the EU. After a hard Brexit, the UK has none, and it'll take years to negotiate new ones. It'll be like importing from Ouagadougou. 25% tariffs, customs hassle, value limits etc.
Enjoy.
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Hello,
I would not worry.
there is already a shop in Germany:
RS Components GmbH
Hessenring 13b, 64546 Mörfelden-Walldorf
Although usually I get on one order
1 package from Mörfelden
3 packages from different locations in UK
So probably only the delivery time will increase
with best regards
Andreas
The 3 packages from the UK will be subject to customs check and tariffs. Whether you do it, or a EU affiliate of RS does it, it'll cost money. Don't kid yourself. As I noted above, compare shipment from Ouagadougou.
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Ever heard of trade agreements? The US has such with the EU. After a hard Brexit, the UK has none, and it'll take years to negotiate new ones. It'll be like importing from Ouagadougou. 25% tariffs, customs hassle, value limits etc.
Enjoy.
I don't think people realize this enough. The industrialized world is tightly integrated and the plethora of measures allow for a streamlined transfer of information, money and goods. Most of us don't know how good we have it, as we've lived in this convenient bubble as long as we can remember. This is the result of many years of careful negotiation and adjusting. The UK now pretty much cuts its ties to the rest of the world completely, without the benefit of any treaties or measures. It's back to square one in very real ways and I'm afraid it's going to hurt like crazy, which won't be restricted to just the UK itself either. The plan was to negotiate alternatives before the real Brexit happens, but due to all kinds of reasons I won't get into that didn't quite materialized in the way anyone imagined or hoped for. Nobody who has any clue of the repercussions wants this, but it seems we'll find out what'll happen anyway.
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Why would you have "a lot" of work with customs, and increased prices?
Why would post-Brexit RS be different from Digikey?
Why Digikey has't relocated to EU, if being in EU is so important?
Ever heard of trade agreements? The US has such with the EU. After a hard Brexit, the UK has none, and it'll take years to negotiate new ones. It'll be like importing from Ouagadougou. 25% tariffs, customs hassle, value limits etc.
That is true but I don't think there will be much customs hassle. Just the import tarif. But I doubt it will be a problem when ordering components since most of the distributors have warehouses in the EU as well. I assume they'll move the stock from the UK warehouses to the ones inside the EU. It will suck for the employees though because the UK based warehouses will probably have to lay-off a whole bunch of people.
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That is true but I don't think there will be much customs hassle. Just the import tarif. But I doubt it will be a problem when ordering components since most of the distributors have warehouses in the EU as well. I assume they'll move the stock from the UK warehouses to the ones inside the EU. It will suck for the employees though because the UK based warehouses will probably have to lay-off a whole bunch of people.
Even the customs hassle is turning out to be a massive issue. Adding just a few seconds for each parcel amounts to days of waiting time. Worse still, the infrastructure is built upon a streamlined and nearly seamless process. Customs isn't anywhere near ready to process those amounts of goods, on either side. It'll probably be years before the infrastructure is capable of handling the new situation properly.
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RS is coming to me from a local Croatian company anyways, very quick, 48h.
I worry about Farnell, because they are very good to me now, but I don't think I would buy so much from them if delivery times go from 3 days to 6-7 days, like it was before Croatia entered full EU membership. I get stuff quicker than that from Mouser. I hope Farnell figure out a proxy company inside EU to deal with this.
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RS is coming to me from a local Croatian company anyways, very quick, 48h.
I worry about Farnell, because they are very good to me now, but I don't think I would buy so much from them if delivery times go from 3 days to 6-7 days, like it was before Croatia entered full EU membership. I get stuff quicker than that from Mouser. I hope Farnell figure out a proxy company inside EU to deal with this.
AFAIK, Farnell has warehouses on the continent. When I have ordered things from them, I have always got them from the French depots. It probably matters which website you order from - if you go to the UK one, the Farnell in the UK will be dealing with it and the goods will go from the UK.
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That is true but I don't think there will be much customs hassle. Just the import tarif. But I doubt it will be a problem when ordering components since most of the distributors have warehouses in the EU as well. I assume they'll move the stock from the UK warehouses to the ones inside the EU. It will suck for the employees though because the UK based warehouses will probably have to lay-off a whole bunch of people.
Even the customs hassle is turning out to be a massive issue. Adding just a few seconds for each parcel amounts to days of waiting time. Worse still, the infrastructure is built upon a streamlined and nearly seamless process. Customs isn't anywhere near ready to process those amounts of goods, on either side. It'll probably be years before the infrastructure is capable of handling the new situation properly.
I don't think so. Massive amounts of goods are imported & exported to/from the US and China and the EU. The stream of goods to/from the UK is just a drop in the bucket compared to that. There are exceptions like food and live stock (animals) which need longer to be checked. But for ordinary stuff like parts I don't see any reason for extra delays. Couriers like Fedex, UPS, etc are already setup for this process.
Let's not make Brexit a bigger thing than it is. Besides (likely) having no trade agreements nothing will change. The UK will not suddenly drift into an abyss or have no rain. It is 'millenium bug' allover again.
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No we were already in a pretty big abyss so we're used to this crap.
I wouldn't worry about it. All the multinational distributors will have worked out how to avoid shafting customers over this mess by the time it drops. If you're outside of the UK then you probably won't notice a difference.
If you're inside the UK you're going to get screwed hard on tariffs however. The company I am working for at the moment just hedged £1m on hardware to avoid future tariffs. I will laugh if it's cancelled.
Also on Farnell, when I order stuff, sometimes some of it comes from Leeds, sometimes from Belgium. Sometimes both for the same order. I imagine that will change.
World will go round. Always does.
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RS is coming to me from a local Croatian company anyways, very quick, 48h.
I worry about Farnell, because they are very good to me now, but I don't think I would buy so much from them if delivery times go from 3 days to 6-7 days, like it was before Croatia entered full EU membership. I get stuff quicker than that from Mouser. I hope Farnell figure out a proxy company inside EU to deal with this.
AFAIK, Farnell has warehouses on the continent. When I have ordered things from them, I have always got them from the French depots. It probably matters which website you order from - if you go to the UK one, the Farnell in the UK will be dealing with it and the goods will go from the UK.
I use Farnell international, and it comes from UK all the time. But, thank you for the info, all they need to do is to reorganize and send to all of EU from France...
Regards,
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I don't think so. Massive amounts of goods are imported & exported to/from the US and China and the EU. The stream of goods to/from the UK is just a drop in the bucket compared to that. There are exceptions like food and live stock (animals) which need longer to be checked. But for ordinary stuff like parts I don't see any reason for extra delays. Couriers like Fedex, UPS, etc are already setup for this process.
Let's not make Brexit a bigger thing than it is. Besides (likely) having no trade agreements nothing will change. The UK will not suddenly drift into an abyss or have no rain. It is 'millenium bug' allover again.
You're overlooked the agreements that exist between the countries you mention, and also the existing infrastructure. They're not just random countries who happen to trade with each other, which the UK will be after a hard Brexit. There won't be any existing relations or infrastructure fit for the purpose. The UK is much more integrated into the EU. Also don't underestimate the volume of trading between the UK and the EU. Both are relatively large markets and about half of UK trading is with the EU.
The difference with Y2K is that many hundreds of thousands of people worked hard to prevent actual mishaps to prevent Y2K from becoming a disaster. Consequently people assume that Y2K was made bigger than it actually was, but it wasn't. People fixed it before it broke and it was a monumental effort. Now there's no fix. There are little to no alternatives negotiated. The hard Brexit is Y2K without the years of preparation of fixes.
I really do hope we're mistaken here, but there's little reason for optimism. Due to how the negotiations unfolded and people thinking they could get more instead of getting nothing, it's essentially the worst case scenario. Thankfully negotiators have provided a "backstop" scenario, but that's as good as it gets.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0D06/production/_99843330_chart-ukchinatrade-zy5gc-nc.png)
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I use Farnell international, and it comes from UK all the time. But, thank you for the info, all they need to do is to reorganize and send to all of EU from France...
Regards,
I think Farnell International defaults to the UK site, they don't have another English speaking one for Europe. So that's likely why you are getting your orders fulfilled from there. Try farnell.fr or farnell.de next time and see whether the packages still come from the UK or not. On a quick check they list the location of many of their goods in warehouses in UK and in Liege (Belgium) - so I would expect they will move stock to the continent as part of the Brexit preparations.
Farnell France SAS has an official address here: 314 Allée des Noisetiers, ZAC des Bruyères, 69760 Limonest, France (near Lyon)
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.8161766,4.77256,3a,63.6y,28.86h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1AtkonfngoQG8wIgzk0gZg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.8161766,4.77256,3a,63.6y,28.86h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1AtkonfngoQG8wIgzk0gZg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (notice the orange logo in the window).
German Farnell has their seat in Munich:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Farnell/@48.1491082,11.6837243,102a,35y,128.39h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4108f8ed94a3bac1:0xd509acee3550d5e0!8m2!3d48.1491411!4d11.6838634 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Farnell/@48.1491082,11.6837243,102a,35y,128.39h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4108f8ed94a3bac1:0xd509acee3550d5e0!8m2!3d48.1491411!4d11.6838634)
I wouldn't be worried about it too much.
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I find some components and products only at RS and it would be a pity to lose their shop.
Wondering what sort of components and products available on RS only?
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If you want overpriced low quantity items they have stolen the market :-DD
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Like BD139 says, they are expensive, and don't hold as many things others.
But when I'm in a hurry, they will deliver stuff in 48h to my door.
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RS is quite nice if you need things like VFDs, variacs, etc., the others are a bit lacking in stock in those aspects. But I suspect Farnell and RS are going to move a considerable portion of their stock over the next few weeks, if they haven't done so already.
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Like BD139 says, they are expensive, and don't hold as many things others.
But when I'm in a hurry, they will deliver stuff in 48h to my door.
For me RS beats Farnell, Mouser and others in many cases, simply because of the free shipping over weekends. Farnell charges around 7 euro, Mouser charges 20 euro unless you reach some minimal value of the order. Which is a pain when I need only a few chips or something like that every once in a while.
But I am only a small fish, if you are ordering components every week and making orders for at least 50-60 euro every time, the mathematics can well be very different.
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But when I'm in a hurry, they will deliver stuff in 48h to my door.
How long delivery from Mouser or DigiKey as example?
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I use Farnell and CPC- Farnell who sent me a 2000 page catalogue.
Farnell for free delivery in UK is minimum order of £20 ex-vat and they use UPS to deliver. I can order on Friday and I expect the delivery on Monday. They also show their in stock quantities for both UK and Liege (Belguim) where I have had Pace soldering bits/sticks flown over so they can meet their delivery promises.
CPC minimum order is £8 (was £5) for free delivery and they use Royal Mail and their delivery takes about a week.
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They also show their in stock quantities for both UK and Liege (France) ...
Liege is in Belgium, actually closer to Germany than to France :)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Li%C3%A8ge,+Belgium/@50.4493044,4.6069265,7.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c0f74b8eacfcfb:0x40099ab2f4d6b40!8m2!3d50.6325574!4d5.5796662 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Li%C3%A8ge,+Belgium/@50.4493044,4.6069265,7.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c0f74b8eacfcfb:0x40099ab2f4d6b40!8m2!3d50.6325574!4d5.5796662)
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But when I'm in a hurry, they will deliver stuff in 48h to my door.
How long delivery from Mouser or DigiKey as example?
Mouser takes 4-5 days but no import procedure, they pass it through EU subsidiary . I don't use Digikey. With them it is always import procedure from a country outside EU. That adds a day or two (or three) on top of few days of delivery in a first place. And also I have to deal with import declarations...
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Sorry my Mistake corrected country.
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The company I work with has established a foothold inside the EU, so any Brexit problems will be limited to occur only when trading with British people or companies. This seems to be pretty much par for the course as far as Brexit planning goes, whether in electronics, finance, or whatever, that I have seen so far.
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But when I'm in a hurry, they will deliver stuff in 48h to my door.
How long delivery from Mouser or DigiKey as example?
Mouser takes 4-5 days but no import procedure, they pass it through EU subsidiary . I don't use Digikey. With them it is always import procedure from a country outside EU. That adds a day or two (or three) on top of few days of delivery in a first place. And also I have to deal with import declarations...
Digikey is actually "funny" here in France - they pretend to have a French website, it shows as the contact their Dutch office (with a Dutch phone number & French fax number - go figure). But when you order from them, everything comes from the US (Digikey doesn't have any EU stock, AFAIK) and while you usually don't pay any customs charges, UPS will send you an invoice for about 20 euro for doing the customs declaration - for every order. Even though filling the customs declaration is the sender's responsiblity and not yours (Digikey apparently couldn't be bothered/doesn't pay for it - so UPS will charge the recipient for it instead!).
However, when you raise a stink, since wtf are these charges about when they weren't mentioned on the original site, they make all the effort to look like an EU company, they have an EU VAT registration and actually do collect the VAT here, they invoice you from Netherlands as well, so as a buyer you have the every right to expect it is a "local" (within EU) transaction (thus you shouldn't have to pay any customs declaration fees) - they will waive the fee! But good luck trying this unless you are a company with a VAT number, they will just tell you to piss off.
I find this a very disgusting business practice.
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Digikey is actually "funny" here in France - they pretend to have a French website, it shows as the contact their Dutch office (with a Dutch phone number & French fax number - go figure). But when you order from them, everything comes from the US (Digikey doesn't have any EU stock, AFAIK) and while you usually don't pay any customs charges, UPS will send you an invoice for about 20 euro for doing the customs declaration - for every order. Even though filling the customs declaration is the sender's responsiblity and not yours (Digikey apparently couldn't be bothered/doesn't pay for it - so UPS will charge the recipient for it instead!).
This is a classical web fight subject. The truth is, the shipping can work either way: the sender pays everything, or they don't. When buying through digikey.fi, they clearly pay for all the customs declaration services for UPS beforehand (everything's hidden in the digikey.fi product pricing), so absolutely no hassle. I though it would be the same for France, as well, since, why not - that's the point? But apparently someone has screwed something up and it's country-dependent. This should be an easy fix if there is will. Maybe they don't want to satisfy French customers for some strange reason.
So really, here Digikey works exactly like you expect it to.
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Digikey is actually "funny" here in France - they pretend to have a French website, it shows as the contact their Dutch office (with a Dutch phone number & French fax number - go figure). But when you order from them, everything comes from the US (Digikey doesn't have any EU stock, AFAIK) and while you usually don't pay any customs charges, UPS will send you an invoice for about 20 euro for doing the customs declaration - for every order. Even though filling the customs declaration is the sender's responsiblity and not yours (Digikey apparently couldn't be bothered/doesn't pay for it - so UPS will charge the recipient for it instead!).
This is a classical web fight subject. The truth is, the shipping can work either way: the sender pays everything, or they don't. When buying through digikey.fi, they clearly pay for all the customs declaration services for UPS beforehand (everything's hidden in the digikey.fi product pricing), so absolutely no hassle. I though it would be the same for France, as well, since, why not - that's the point? But apparently someone has screwed something up and it's country-dependent. This should be an easy fix if there is will. Maybe they don't want to satisfy French customers for some strange reason.
So really, here Digikey works exactly like you expect it to.
The same in Italy. No hassle at all with Digikey (or with Mouser or Farnell).
Farnell delivers in one (working-)day. Digikey takes two days and Mouser three.
No problems with customs or additional fees.
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Digikey is actually "funny" here in France - they pretend to have a French website, it shows as the contact their Dutch office (with a Dutch phone number & French fax number - go figure). But when you order from them, everything comes from the US (Digikey doesn't have any EU stock, AFAIK) and while you usually don't pay any customs charges, UPS will send you an invoice for about 20 euro for doing the customs declaration - for every order. Even though filling the customs declaration is the sender's responsiblity and not yours (Digikey apparently couldn't be bothered/doesn't pay for it - so UPS will charge the recipient for it instead!).
This is a classical web fight subject. The truth is, the shipping can work either way: the sender pays everything, or they don't. When buying through digikey.fi, they clearly pay for all the customs declaration services for UPS beforehand (everything's hidden in the digikey.fi product pricing), so absolutely no hassle. I though it would be the same for France, as well, since, why not - that's the point? But apparently someone has screwed something up and it's country-dependent. This should be an easy fix if there is will. Maybe they don't want to satisfy French customers for some strange reason.
So really, here Digikey works exactly like you expect it to.
Yeah, I was also shocked by this. What you describe is how it should be - if they want to use UPS to ship the goods, that's their choice, but why should I have to pay extra for UPS doing paperwork that is both unnecessary (the fee is flat regardless of the value of the goods, even though for small packages all the sender has to do is to slap a sticker with declared value and description of goods on the package, no need to file any papers!) and overpriced, because DK could certainly negotiate better price for this service with UPS if they wanted them to handle it. I am happy to pay a few bucks extra in shipping & handling costs for this.
No idea why they are operating like this here - it is either the local (Dutch?) subsidiary which is incompetent (they have a German one too at least), maybe they use different shipping companies for different countries or something else is afoot, I don't know.
Either way, the result is that I am avoiding ordering from DK unless I have no other choice. No other major distributor (Mouser, Farnell, RS, ...) has these issues.
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The problems with Digikey in France sounds like the problems we have: Almost every customer we have in France begging us not to be delivered by UPS. Strange routing, not explainable delays, vanished parcels.. To equal with other parcel services: other areas in Europe stays away from other companies. Funny: many of our customers around Bonn (Germany) avoids DHL. Now look where the DHL global hq is. ???
We also see many of the one-man-LTDs founded in UK sending us papers showing company transfers. "We have a new address. And oh, our VAT has also changed.." But there are so many customers with a UK-based LTD, that havn't done yet.
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The problems with Digikey in France sounds like the problems we have: Almost every customer we have in France begging us not to be delivered by UPS. Strange routing, not explainable delays, vanished parcels.. To equal with other parcel services: other areas in Europe stays away from other companies. Funny: many of our customers around Bonn (Germany) avoids DHL. Now look where the DHL global hq is. ???
Could well be (OTOH I had some insane issues with DHL before as well ...).
However, that's really not the customer's problem but DigiKeys - they aren't offering a choice of a shipping agent, so it is in their interest to choose a sane and well performing one. Then there is also the part about the customs declaration that UPS charges the recipients for - that fee (and paperwork!) should be normally done by the sender (the part where you declare the content of the shipment and its value so that the customs can process it).
In this case DK is obviously not doing it and it is possible that in order to import stuff to France from outside the EU the requirements are more strict than elsewhere - then UPS is not going to swallow the costs, so it is charging for it here. Similar like the CE/WEE marking issues when importing stuff to Germany, that aren't seen elsewhere.
But again, while this is understandable and unfortunate, their competitors don't have these issues. So it is in their own interest to fix it.
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The 3 packages from the UK will be subject to customs check and tariffs. Whether you do it, or a EU affiliate of RS does it, it'll cost money. Don't kid yourself. As I noted above, compare shipment from Ouagadougou.
Cant se any difference in shipment from to Ouagadougou from to Vagaga. Btw customs and vat is just a scam of the common people to pretend things for them.
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Farnell have published a Brexit Update: https://www.element14.com/news/brexit-update-for-our-eu-and-uk-customers-march-2019 (https://www.element14.com/news/brexit-update-for-our-eu-and-uk-customers-march-2019)
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Farnell have published a Brexit Update: https://www.element14.com/news/brexit-update-for-our-eu-and-uk-customers-march-2019 (https://www.element14.com/news/brexit-update-for-our-eu-and-uk-customers-march-2019)
Jesus wept. Multiply this effect by tens of thousands of companies and it becomes a cause for concern to any British citizen/resident about where this is all heading.
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Yeah it's shit sandwich. I just did a whole bunch of international orders to cover me for the next 6 months or so. Hoping they clear customs before it all goes to hell.
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Yep. Two of the big car manufacturers have shut down for a couple of weeks. They planned it in advance to elevate JIT supply problems. But with a delayed/cancelled/FUBAR brexit there was not enough notice to keep open. Employees booked holidays is the official reason...
I bought loads of 'on the long finger' kit from eBay.co.uk in the last few months. No point messing around which import taxes. Same with Amazon, but have now switch over to the Spanish version. It is actually cheaper for some items, even taking the €7~ postage vs free from .co.uk.
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it's all bullshit you know,
inside EU, or not - governments DECIDE to screw with goods at the border or tax them - there is nothing set in stone that says they actually have to.
look at animals, take a donkey across borders and you have problems - take a race-horse and you dont.
why? because race-horses are owned by the rich.
governments are the problem, they produce no net value - serve no usefull function.
they just spy on and tax the life out of everything and everyone in order to fund international terrorism they call "interventions".
i personally look forward to the day they mess with the wrong country and go away in a bright flash of light!!
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governments are the problem, they produce no net value - serve no usefull function.
Are there any examples of countries that have no government at all, that you could also call a well functioning country?
Not that I don't understand where you're coming from, but it might be best to file government under "necessary evil"!
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one small european country had no government for atleast 2 years afaik and functioned just fine - it may have been belgium.
i remember because the EU communist head office imposed one on them so they could take directives(orders) from brussels
only local government actually does anything usefull - like fixing roads and collecting rubbish - national governments are parasites.
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You clearly haven't spent any time with local government.
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There's always a government, always have been, always will be, whether you realise it or not.
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i remember because the EU communist head office imposed one on them so they could take directives(orders) from brussels
You make take orders from Brussels - the rest of us give orders to Brussels! (via our governments and MEPs) - you may have misunderstood something fundamental somewhere along the line about how all this works?
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You clearly haven't spent any time with local government.
i never said local government wasnt a bunch of common-purpose masonic peido's with their fingers in every contract,
i just said they do some usefull things - sometimes they may even do something properly, although it wont be intentional!
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Yeah that’s fair. Mine took me to court and forgot to turn up. Magistrate ordered they pay me costs lol. Had to appoint bailiffs to get the costs paid.
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exactly the same thing happened to a friend of mine who sued British Telecom.
you would think they could atleast send a representative to a hearing!!
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one small european country had no government for atleast 2 years afaik and functioned just fine - it may have been belgium.
They should try it without NATO and then tell us how wonderful it is.
There certainly exist legitimate uses for national governments, the problem is they have grown completely out of control.
Now, let's talk international governments :-DD
Brexit wouldn't be a thing if the EU remained a customs union.
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Brexit wouldn't be a thing if the IQ bell curve shifted right a bit.
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Only a few realize that population IQ bell curve is the real, huge and underestimated problem.
The rest is just stupid cosmetic.
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Sadly, UK sellers on eBay will not be seeing purchases from me after Brexit.
This isn't out of spite, it's due to the policies enacted by the Swedish post company Postnord. Sweden is unique in the EU in insisting that all purchases from outside the EU are liable for VAT, even if the value of the purchase is one penny. For a long time, Postnord ignored this and did what all other EU countries do - send small value items straight on without charge.
Then, a "journalist" at one of the Swedish newspapers started kicking up a stink about the fact that people were ordering stuff from China and the government wasn't getting its VAT. The government could no longer turn a blind eye and demanded that Postnord ensure that VAT is collected on every non-EU package.
The result is that Postnord implemented a system which means that anything from outside the EU is delayed by six to twelve weeks and for this privilege, you get to pay an administration charge of 75 SEK per parcel (125 SEK if the value is over 1600 SEK).
So, even if the value of the parcel is 1 SEK, with a VAT charge of 0.25 SEK, I get to pay 75 SEK on top and have to wait an unreasonable amount of time to receive the parcel. (If it actually arrives that is. Oh, and if Postnord 'lose' your parcel, you don't get the administration charge back.)
Because of this farce, I no longer buy from non-EU sellers. It's simply not worth the wait, the charges or the risk. Once the UK becomes "non EU", that's the end of my shopping on ebay.co.uk, which is a real shame.
The only company outside the EU who I regularly deal with is Mouser. This is because they will add on the VAT and pay it for me as part of the service. This means that I can order parts from Mouser on the Monday and have them in my hand on the Wednesday thanks to their free FedEx shipping.
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Yep. Totally. This is why I don't buy stuff from the US already and I expect us to suffer now.
I was going to buy an Elecraft K2 transceiver a while back. $1300 approx from the US which is 996 GBP. Fair enough - that's the price to play.
By the time duty, VAT, handling charges and insurance had gone into the purchase, total out of my pocket is £1630. Forget it totally!
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@grizewald
Based on your post Sweden is now free from Chinese junk. Is that the case?
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No, it just means there is one extra middle man. There are plenty of dollar stores selling junk, and Wish.com made a deal with Postnord so they still sell a lot of imported junk by mail. (Not all of it is junk of course, although the stuff you can get still get via dollar stores are. Not all of it comes from China either).
I don't mind paying VAT at all, but the 75 SEK private tax that Postnord charges is just nuts.
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@grizewald
Based on your post Sweden is now free from Chinese junk. Is that the case?
Not completely. Postnord and Wish negotiated a deal where Wish add on the VAT at the time of purchase and use a Swedish payment processor for the transaction who sends the VAT directly to the government. Wish then mark the package with a code which prevents it being diverted into the "ransom your package" stream when it arrives in Sweden.
Most of the time, this works.
It may well be that Postnord put the journalist up to breaking the story and putting pressure on the Government so that they could do something about the mountains of parcels which were arriving every day from China. The volume was up to 100s of thousands of packages every week and they were losing money delivering them due to the special prices that China get under international postal agreements.
It wasn't the right way to solve the problem though, as all non-EU parcels are equally affected by long delays and out of proportion handling charges.
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The volume was up to 100s of thousands of packages every week and they were losing money delivering them due to the special prices that China get under international postal agreements. It wasn't the right way to solve the problem though, as all non-EU parcels are equally affected by long delays and out of proportion handling charges.
Can't you just find a way to blame the EU for this? - that has worked so well for England so far!
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Sweden is unique in the EU in insisting that all purchases from outside the EU are liable for VAT, even if the value of the purchase is one penny.
You aren't unique and as far as I know it's coming to all of EU in two years or something like that.
What might be unique is that the post bothers enforcing it. They considered similar system here last year but ultimately it still doesn't exist.
Can't you just find a way to blame the EU for this? - that has worked so well for England so far!
Not EU this time but international postal agreements which put the burden of delivery of incoming mail on the destination country.
It was okayish for normal mail but it completely fails with mass scale ecommerce. Basically the post has to raise prices of domestic mail to make up for the loss, giving unfair advantage to foreign sellers. Those deals should have been abolished and renegotiated, at least with the worst offender countries.
Trying to stop this trade by asinine VAT enforcement would surely be wrong.
But frankly, I think it's not about postal losses but about VAT itself. It might be pennies per package, but there are millions of those packages and it adds up. I'm pretty sure the end game is to get all EU countries to implement similar systems, effectively blocking AliExpress et al until they agree to charge their customers VAT like Mouser does.
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Sweden is unique in the EU in insisting that all purchases from outside the EU are liable for VAT, even if the value of the purchase is one penny.
You aren't unique and as far as I know it's coming to all of EU in two years or something like that.
Every EU member country is required to charge VAT for goods imported from a non-EU country (but not for EU member countries of course).
In the US, you are often required to pay sales tax in your home state when you purchase via mail order from another state. Then, it is called "use tax" rather than "sales tax".
The one thing we can always be sure of is that the tax man will get his cut, no matter what we do!
Re. the postal agreement - Trump hates them too. But they are based on the volume of mail being approximately balanced in both directions. All we have to do is start exporting stuff to China, instead of us all only buying stuff from them!
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It's some weird sort of protectionism. There are lots of companies importing cheap stuff from China and then reselling it to the locals for 10 to 20 times the price. Example: you could buy USB-cables from AliExpress for US$2 including shipping, in the stores the same cable (made in China) cost at least $20.
It may well be that Postnord put the journalist up to breaking the story and putting pressure on the Government so that they could do something about the mountains of parcels which were arriving every day from China.
The Swedish Trade Federation (Svensk Handel) were also pushing for it.
https://www.svt.se/opinion/svensk-handel-om-e-handel-fran-kina (https://www.svt.se/opinion/svensk-handel-om-e-handel-fran-kina)
But frankly, I think it's not about postal losses but about VAT itself. It might be pennies per package, but there are millions of those packages and it adds up.
No, it wasn't nothing but it wasn't enough that the government really cared either. In particular it would cost much more to collect VAT than to just let it slide which is how it used to be for orders below a certain amount. This new rule was to prevent people from buying directly from China in order to favour local stores who were also importing goods from China and reselling them here. Can't compete with people who buy directly from the factories in China.
Can't you just find a way to blame the EU for this? - that has worked so well for England so far!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rs-components-and-uk-resellers-after-brexit-should-i-worry/?action=dlattach;attach=700131;image)
This probably only makes sense to people in Sweden:
http://y2u.be/S8SF3XmLQps (http://y2u.be/S8SF3XmLQps)
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It's some weird sort of protectionism. There are lots of companies importing cheap stuff from China and then reselling it to the locals for 10 to 20 times the price. Example: you could buy USB-cables from AliExpress for US$2 including shipping, in the stores the same cable (made in China) cost at least $20.
You hit the nail on the head. (https://filedn.com/lEDSGUXnO7mp9lWR3BbARrR/Emoticons/nod.gif)
Like you, I have no problem paying VAT if the government insists. What I can't live with is the completely unjustified delays and the fantasy costs.
Even ordering from within the EU exposes how crap Postnord's service is these days. A package which arrives in Sweden on a Monday from the UK, having been posted in the UK on the Friday, will finally get delivered to my local post agent on the Friday most times. In the days before the utterly misguided fusion with Post Denmark to create Postnord, it normally took 72 hours, door to door, for parcels from the UK.
For some things, RC parts in particular, there is often no alternative than to order from China as finding the parts I want in Sweden is not possible. If companies like Kell & Co dialled back the greed a bit, I would buy more from them. As it is today, I can buy five nodeMCU boards from China for less than Kjell & Co want for one! The same applies, as you rightly point out, with USB cables. Even most Swedish web shops aren't much better, due to the cost of doing business here in Sweden being so ridiculously high.
Several times, I've looked at going into business on my own here, but when you have to charge 500 SEK to get 100 SEK in your hand, most ideas just don't add up. Not to mention being buried under a mountain of unnecessary administration which means you end up working half of your working week on things that don't generate income.
Still, it beats moving back to the UK any day! :-DD
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Every EU member country is required to charge VAT for goods imported from a non-EU country (but not for EU member countries of course).
Nope, to the best of my knowledge, small packages are exempt and only a few countries insist that you owe them tax even on $1 items. But this is supposedly going to change in a few years so that all of EU will be like you say.
Re. the postal agreement - Trump hates them too. But they are based on the volume of mail being approximately balanced in both directions. All we have to do is start exporting stuff to China, instead of us all only buying stuff from them!
There is nothing America or Europe could export to china in postal envelopes that they couldn't produce cheaper domestically. You can't compete on cheap, tiny stuff with a billion of third-world people. Those agreements should simply be changed, they make no sense anymore with China.
No, it wasn't nothing but it wasn't enough that the government really cared either. In particular it would cost much more to collect VAT than to just let it slide which is how it used to be for orders below a certain amount. This new rule was to prevent people from buying directly from China in order to favour local stores who were also importing goods from China and reselling them here.
Protectionism is a factor too, but you didn't get my point at all.
Collecting tax from a million of tiny packages is expensive and hence they used to let it slide. But receiving a bulk wire transfer from Mouser or AliExpress is cheap. And that's what they are after, I think. There is a certain volume of cheap stuff imported from China, probably quite significant and probably rising from year to year, and if they simply allow direct orders to bypass customs, they will lose tax revenue from that import as more people will transition to ordering directly from China.
So they send a massive fuck-you to Chinese retailers and hope that they will compromise and start to charge VAT on their behalf. I can't be sure, but I think this is what's going to happen. Chinese probably know it too and they are just milking the current opportunity for all they can. But in a few years all of EU will enforce insane processing fees on incoming mail and the only way to buy cheaply from China will be from vendors who have deals to collect VAT at the time of sale and bypass customs.
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Digikey is actually "funny" here in France - they pretend to have a French website, it shows as the contact their Dutch office (with a Dutch phone number & French fax number - go figure). But when you order from them, everything comes from the US (Digikey doesn't have any EU stock, AFAIK) and while you usually don't pay any customs charges, UPS will send you an invoice for about 20 euro for doing the customs declaration - for every order. Even though filling the customs declaration is the sender's responsiblity and not yours (Digikey apparently couldn't be bothered/doesn't pay for it - so UPS will charge the recipient for it instead!).
However, when you raise a stink, since wtf are these charges about when they weren't mentioned on the original site, they make all the effort to look like an EU company, they have an EU VAT registration and actually do collect the VAT here, they invoice you from Netherlands as well, so as a buyer you have the every right to expect it is a "local" (within EU) transaction (thus you shouldn't have to pay any customs declaration fees) - they will waive the fee! But good luck trying this unless you are a company with a VAT number, they will just tell you to piss off.
I find this a very disgusting business practice.
What's really bizarre is how Digi-Key has different export terms for each country it ships to, seemingly. And it varies by the currency you pay in, too!
For example, here are their export terms for France:
For France, you may select one of the following currencies:
Euro
Free delivery to France on orders of 50,00 € or more.
A delivery charge of 18,00 € will be billed on all orders less than 50,00 €.
Incoterms:
Business-to-Business shipments with a validated VAT number: DDP (Duty and customs paid by Digi-Key)
All other shipments: CPT (Duty, customs, and VAT due at time of delivery)
US Dollar
Free delivery to France on orders of $60,00 USD or more.
A delivery charge of $22,00 USD will be billed on all orders less than $60,00 USD.
Incoterms:
UPS freight pre-paid: DDP (Duty and customs paid by Digi-Key)
FedEx or DHL freight pre-paid: CPT (Duty, customs, and VAT due at time of delivery)
So you'd want to buy in USD and have UPS freight. (Can they even do that for small orders?)
In contrast, here are the terms for Germany (which I would have expected to be identical, given that they're both EU, but they're not!)
For Germany, you may select one of the following currencies:
Euro
Free delivery to Germany on orders of 50,00 € or more.
A delivery charge of 18,00 € will be billed on all orders less than 50,00 €.
Incoterms:
DDP (Duty and customs paid by Digi-Key)
US Dollar
Free delivery to Germany on orders of $60,00 USD or more.
A delivery charge of $22,00 USD will be billed on all orders less than $60,00 USD.
Incoterms:
UPS freight pre-paid: DDP (Duty and customs paid by Digi-Key)
FedEx or DHL freight pre-paid: CPT (Duty, customs, and VAT due at time of delivery)
So you'd definitely want to order in Euros.
And this is the terms for Switzerland:
For Switzerland, you may select one of the following currencies:
Franc
Free delivery to Switzerland on orders of 54.00 CHF or more.
A delivery charge of 20.00 CHF will be billed on all orders less than 54.00 CHF.
Incoterms:
DDP (Duty and customs paid by Digi-Key)
Euro
Free delivery to Switzerland on orders of 50,00 € or more.
A delivery charge of 18,00 € will be billed on all orders less than 50,00 €.
Incoterms:
DDP (Duty and customs paid by Digi-Key)
US Dollar
Free delivery to Switzerland on orders of $60,00 USD or more.
A delivery charge of $22,00 USD will be billed on all orders less than $60,00 USD.
Incoterms:
UPS, FedEx or DHL freight pre-paid: DDP (Duty and customs paid by Digi-Key)
Here, any currency is equal. (For once, living in Switzerland has an advantage for ordering online!) What's not obvious is that UPS or FedEx will still collect Swiss VAT on delivery. (But they don't seem to charge a fee for this.)
Ultimately, any vendor can choose how easy they want to make it for their customers, by providing full-service customs pre-clearance with VAT collection (like AmazonGlobal*), to partial (like Digikey with DDP incoterms), to nothing at all (like Mouser and Farnell).
*Insert rant about Amazon stopping delivery to Switzerland from all Amazon domains except .de, .fr, .it, .es and .co.uk. This really sucks because there are tons of things on Amazon.com and .co.jp that aren't available on the local ones -- and even on the local ones, a HUGE percentage of items do not ship to Switzerland. (Even AmazonBasics stuff is weird: single Lightning cable? No problem. 12-pack? Verboten!) This is because of Switzerland's dumb new VAT law, which somehow Amazon has refused to implement across all its domains, despite it being a simpler VAT algorithm than the old one, which AmazonGlobal supported... Oh, and 2018 came and went without amazon.ch launching as expected.
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Every EU member country is required to charge VAT for goods imported from a non-EU country (but not for EU member countries of course).
Nope, to the best of my knowledge, small packages are exempt and only a few countries insist that you owe them tax even on $1 items. But this is supposedly going to change in a few years so that all of EU will be like you say.
We are both right: Every country is required to collect VAT on imports, but are allowed to use a "Low Value Consignment Stock Relief" threshold (which is generally EUR 22) to reduce administration and costs for low value goods. Some countries have gone the other way (Norway is a bit higher than that, for example).
I didn't realize that Sweden had set its threshold to zero - seems counterproductive, but in keeping with the national penchant of taxing anything that moves (and many things that don't?).
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But in a few years all of EU will enforce insane processing fees on incoming mail and the only way to buy cheaply from China will be from vendors who have deals to collect VAT at the time of sale and bypass customs.
That does sound very plausible.
So you either import and resell large enough quantities that the numbers make sense, or you buy from a foreign vendor that has a VAT agreement in place to simplify processing.
It could make a ton of sense for someone like PayPal to get those kinds of things in place, as a service, to allow smaller vendors to sell economically to EU countries.
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one small european country had no government for atleast 2 years afaik and functioned just fine - it may have been belgium. i remember because the EU communist head office imposed one on them so they could take directives(orders) from brussels only local government actually does anything usefull - like fixing roads and collecting rubbish - national governments are parasites.
Sweden was out of a gov for 131 days and it worked just as with a gov to every Swedish citizens surprise! Italy may some argue is constantly out of proper gov and is still around.
Dutch 208 days in 2017. Germany 171 days in 2017. Norway 123 days in 2018. Belgum 541 days in 2010.
So gov is overrated, just a kindergarten for self proclaimed elites.
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People are forgetting that countries have two forms of government. Politicians who temporary and Civil servants who are permanent. Most countries will quite happily keep running for along period without politicians.
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Protectionism is a factor too, but you didn't get my point at all.
Collecting tax from a million of tiny packages is expensive and hence they used to let it slide. But receiving a bulk wire transfer from Mouser or AliExpress is cheap. And that's what they are after, I think. There is a certain volume of cheap stuff imported from China, probably quite significant and probably rising from year to year, and if they simply allow direct orders to bypass customs, they will lose tax revenue from that import as more people will transition to ordering directly from China.
So they send a massive fuck-you to Chinese retailers and hope that they will compromise and start to charge VAT on their behalf. I can't be sure, but I think this is what's going to happen. Chinese probably know it too and they are just milking the current opportunity for all they can. But in a few years all of EU will enforce insane processing fees on incoming mail and the only way to buy cheaply from China will be from vendors who have deals to collect VAT at the time of sale and bypass customs.
One might think the government makes a lot of money from this, but the government got less than $0.4 million the first month after implementing the new rule (could't find newer figures), while Postnord made more than 5 times that amount from their "administration fee". Every package from outside EU is delayed and charged more than $8 extra by Postnord which they put in their own pockets.
The reason for the law probably wasn't that the gov believed they would get a lot of tax money but rather that the Swedish Trade Federation were moaning about it being unfair competition from the Chinese since they didn't have to pay VAT. And to be fair, they were right about that. The Chinese doesn't care about meeting our safety regulations or other regulations either which is also a problem. But the way this was implemented was as way to eliminate the completion from private direct import completely.
If you can even find the same goods locally (usually not), it originates from China whether we buy it from a local trader or directly from China. By buying from AliExpress we eliminate not only vat and safety regulations, but more importantly we eliminate the middlemen who add more than 1000% to the price which they put in their own pockets. The middlemen don't really add any value for anyone so it's a good thing if we can eliminate that link in the chain. It would be different if the Chinese were competing with locally made goods but they are not.
You guessed correctly regarding wanting AliExpress, etc, to charge VAT and transfer it to the gov directly. But Postnord still wants to administer that so that they can continue to charge an "administration fee" but directly from AliExpress in that case. The problem with that plan is that no one cares about a country with a population of only 10 million, we're too small to matter. If they implemented this on the EU-level it would be different. If they could convince AliExpress to charge VAT and enforce safety regulations I might even support it. As it is now they just make it impossible for normal people to buy low value items from outside of the EU.
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People are forgetting that countries have two forms of government. Politicians who temporary and Civil servants who are permanent. Most countries will quite happily keep running for along period without politicians.
The legislative branch and the executive branch of the state. You won't keep going without the legislative branch forever though, even if you wanted that, and I don't see why anyone would want that to be honest.
The executive branch is just as rotten as the legislative because it is also made of people, and people are imperfect. It's just that you usually don't get as much news about them so people don't realise. And of course, they are not permanent, they are usually appointed by the legislative branch.
Out of sight, out of mind.
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I don't mind paying VAT at all, but the 75 SEK private tax that Postnord charges is just nuts.
Oh, you are lucky. They charge 160 DKK on the other side of the Sound.
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I wish even Italy took the brexit step :palm: :palm: :palm:
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I don't mind paying VAT at all, but the 75 SEK private tax that Postnord charges is just nuts.
Oh, you are lucky. They charge 160 DKK on the other side of the Sound.
But isn't there a lower limit in Denmark? We used to pay a fee only if the value was over $25, but after the change we pay a fee for every package, no matter what the value is.
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I don't mind paying VAT at all, but the 75 SEK private tax that Postnord charges is just nuts.
Oh, you are lucky. They charge 160 DKK on the other side of the Sound.
But isn't there a lower limit in Denmark? We used to pay a fee only if the value was over $25, but after the change we pay a fee for every package, no matter what the value is.
80 DKK (~$12) if I remember correctly.