Russia makes billions without doing any work (but is this fair globally?)

[Cliff Matthews]

FWIW, I found this 10-minute video interesting.. but I doubt any average Russian citizen benefits from the proceeds.


Closely related: Perhaps Russia is justified charging high tariff's - they have another serious problem:

[Rick Law]

Perhaps it is because I am trying to convince my own kid of this that made me so "preachie".

These two videos are very educational.  While most here are making their living with technology, none the less, a good understanding of the world would still benefit us feeding from selling technology.  Geopolitics matter even for Engineers.

There were plenty of discussions here about technology and development of BRIC nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China) some time ago.  At the time, I stated that there really would be no competition.  Between the four, China had the infrastructure, political stability, and investment power that none of the other three could even come close.  They will catch up, but one has an advantage if one started the race with a head start.

In the end, we, even the "behind close door locked-in-lab" technicians exists only to serve a market.  A better understanding of the market and the market's landscape, culture, and language will help us develop into a better technician.

Now if I can convince even one of you (you as in non-believers.  I am sure plenty of you already believe) to believe in my argument here that knowledge of the world and geopolitics has value in technology and engineering, I may have a shot in convincing my own kid...

[Cliff Matthews]

How old is your kid? This is a lot to take in. IMO since globalization, and each nation's obsession with their trade balances, it seems N2N affairs are so dynamic as to render 5-year old textbooks obsolete. Wendover and their sub-channel "Half as Interesting" are first class tip-of-the-iceberg channels but there must be a raft of other sources.

If you have the time and you're in for gleanings, Jordan Peterson's chats with Harvard-types (both sides of the house) are always packed with interesting geo-statistical views. He doesn't appeal to everyone, but he makes it look easy putting the bigger puzzle together. - cheers!

[Rick Law]

How old is your kid?
...

*** EDIT ***

I removed my reply to the question above.  I decided it would not be right to intrude into my kid's privacy.

[BravoV]

.... but I doubt any average Russian citizen benefits from the proceeds.

Naive question, how do you know "exactly" that ? Reading western news only ?

[Cliff Matthews]

.... but I doubt any average Russian citizen benefits from the proceeds.

Naive question, how do you know "exactly" that ? Reading western news only ?

Possibly a jump, but airlines are committed to silence on the extortion amounts.. Using back-channels to pay demands seems the most likely way to obfuscate who is paying what to whom (IE Russian oligarch's ensure the public purse is not affected). Who knows, maybe the $100 per traveler exchanges massive quantities of airplane parts? but that's a stretch.

[T3sl4co1l]

I mean, from what little I know of Russian government, that would be logical.  The gov't is very top-heavy, i.e. the few in power wield significantly more power than the people do, and by power I mean combined political, economic and military power (there is no distinction between the three -- they are all components one must use in order to remain in power, for better or for worse).

It's not obvious to me if it's still on the side of democracy, or dictatorship, but it seems to be relatively stable regardless, suggesting one or the other and not somewhere inbetween.  A political scientist or economist could quantify that better (well, assuming open information to base such judgement on).

Even in a western democracy, selling airspace rights would logically go to the state, at least as the primary recipient.  There's no reason to believe that it should trickle down to the people, whether by offsetting overall taxes, or budgeting to some public service, or by a direct rebate.  It might be logical to disburse it to land owners who are overflown by the routes (given a suitable distribution among owners, as routes are inexact, and many owners would be affected to varying degrees), but I don't think there's any basis for that in the US for example, though there may be better reasoning in others (namely, those where property rights extend up and down infinitely far).

Which is to say, I have no idea, but have no doubt that it's more or less going straight into the oligarchy's pockets (and, by extension, a majority to Putin's).

Tim

[Rick Law]

...
There's no reason to believe that it should trickle down to the people, whether by offsetting overall taxes, or budgeting to some public service, or by a direct rebate.
...
Which is to say, I have no idea, but have no doubt that it's more or less going straight into the oligarchy's pockets (and, by extension, a majority to Putin's).

Tim

I am sure some benefit will trickle down.  The establishment of safe air-lanes and supporting infrastructure will benefit day-to-day travelers, industries, and overall national economic development.  So average Russians will benefit from that.

I am also sure that someones' pocket(s) got thicker and fuller as well.

[CopperCone]

i wonder if NATO/etc can some how jam or interfere with that airspace to further anti Russia sanctions

i.e. warn commercial traffic not to go there and then discourage flight there with jamming.

[mtdoc]

The gov't is very top-heavy, i.e. the few in power wield significantly more power than the people do, and by power I mean combined political, economic and military power (there is no distinction between the three -- they are all components one must use in order to remain in power, for better or for worse).

You're right that is very true in the USA .. Er, oh, wait  you're talking about Russia... 

[Cliff Matthews]

i wonder if NATO/etc can some how jam or interfere with that airspace to further anti Russia sanctions

i.e. warn commercial traffic not to go there and then discourage flight there with jamming.

Not a good idea to poke a bear. This landmass is so huge that VHF jamming ATC would be near impossible and flying around it involves more fuel and costly waypoints and tariff's over poorly governed hostiles to the south. (Syria, Iran, the "stans" etc..).

[CopperCone]

can't they chase stuff around in electronic warfare planes?

[BravoV]

i wonder if NATO/etc can some how jam or interfere with that airspace to further anti Russia sanctions

i.e. warn commercial traffic not to go there and then discourage flight there with jamming.

Does the word "sovereignty" mean anything to you ?   

[CopperCone]

part of it goes over the ocean you can claim exercises

[Cliff Matthews]

part of it goes over the ocean you can claim exercises

Watch the video.  The topic is extortionist overflight permissions and what appears to be untraceable money trails.

[CopperCone]

I just don't like Russia very much. They ruined my idea of doing things in Europe.

And you can't shake down whats not there can you??

[CopperCone]

IMO putin is like a combination of J Edgar Hoover and Roy Demeo being president

[BravoV]

Watch the video.  The topic is extortionist overflight permissions and what appears to be untraceable money trails.

They own the land, they can extort however amount they'd like.
Consider dictatorship countries as owned by key rich people. Whether they let you know their income or not is not up to you.
And no, dictatorship doesn't essentially mean corruption. I don't think Putin cares about his own money anymore.
Letting state wealth to trickle to some minority rich people doesn't essentially mean Putin gets a cut. It simply means the wealth and power of the state is concentrated, and the average people have less power hence more dependency on a steady income, which is built on a stable society.
He get power, and Russian riches get money. Win-Win.

This is essentially the same what China does, and since NK is starting to embrace capitalism, they will do the same in short future -- to bribe the rich, let them concentrate power from the people, and use their profit to keep them loyal to the government.

Few fellas here I suspect can not understand what are you saying here, they just don't see that western world is no different, money & wealth is being concentrated for almost few decades only at few handful of powerful elite groups. For US few words pop out such as Wall street, military contractors, bankers, Jews rich & elite group and so on.

[CopperCone]

All that stuff you listed is still way more spread out then russia

[BravoV]

All that stuff you listed is still way more spread out then russia

Now its game of words, in Russia you guys called it oligarchy, while it US you called "spread & diversed" elite groups, still ... not for the "people" maybe like you.

[Cliff Matthews]

@BravoV - I lived under communism for 5 years, working directly with poor peon technician's in state-run technical shops. I've seen what I need to see. I'm now back in "the west" 22-years married to a gal from that country, and now lending $upport to some 12 souls from that same hell-hole. The west still holds many "checks and balances", not found in totalitarian states.

@BlueSkull - Knowing an oligarch's income is not so important..  what fascinates me, is the hidden accounting done by western airlines, in order to keep the world from knowing all the facts (this used to be a fairly transparent pillar of western civ..)

[orion242]

i wonder if NATO/etc can some how jam or interfere with that airspace to further anti Russia sanctions

i.e. warn commercial traffic not to go there and then discourage flight there with jamming.

Who would that really hurt more?  4x longer and more expensive flights?

Their territory there rules.  If we thought we could make good money doing the same, sure we would do the same.

[orion242]

what fascinates me, is the hidden accounting done by western airlines, in order to keep the world from knowing all the facts

Private companies likely under contract to not disclose terms, not too interesting imo.

[Cliff Matthews]

what fascinates me, is the hidden accounting done by western airlines, in order to keep the world from knowing all the facts

Private companies likely under contract to not disclose terms, not too interesting imo.

Terms don't interest.. Some airlines may be public, and the wide variety of back-channel payments (not necessarily $) makes good fodder for a curious press I'd think.

[orion242]

Even public companies have plenty of ways to bury costs in their financial disclosures.  They can easily lump it in a broad bucket of fees making it very difficult if not impossible to track down.

[mtdoc]

All that stuff you listed is still way more spread out then russia

Now its game of words, in Russia you guys called it oligarchy, while it US you called "spread & diversed" elite groups, still ... not for the "people" maybe like you.

As has been shown by a recent Princeton study, the US is an olgarchy, not a democracy. The oligarchs here just have more practice, and a longer history at work to keep the masses under the illusion that they dwell in a democracy.

[Cliff Matthews]

All that stuff you listed is still way more spread out then russia

Now its game of words, in Russia you guys called it oligarchy, while it US you called "spread & diversed" elite groups, still ... not for the "people" maybe like you.

As has been shown by a recent Princeton study, the US is an olgarchy, not a democracy. The oligarchs here just have more practice, and a longer history at work to keep the masses under the illusion that they dwell in a democracy.

2014's not so recent. Libtards at Vox had doubts: https://www.vox.com/2016/5/9/11502464/gilens-page-oligarchy-study