Saleae logic price increases and interesting blog post explanation

[Howardlong]

somebody's pissed an awful lot of money away.

building engineering team in CA to design actual hardware (instead of just copying USBEE) aint cheap, probably >100K per engineer in current everyone and his dog in a startup climate

Agreed, but  they'll have sold in the order of tens of thousands of units, and that the margin will be pretty lucrative, so what I was alluding to is where did it all go?

[dannyf]

they'll have sold in the order of tens of thousands of units, and that the margin will be pretty lucrative

Let's say that they incur no (manufacturing) costs, and every penny of the revenue goes to the earnings. Over the course of 5 - 10 (?) years they have been selling this stuff, how much money have them made?

That gives you some sense how "filthy" rich those guys have made off.

Trust me, you can easily do better than that.

[tom66]

They did say before that they  (two guys) make less than an average EE, plus they have very little job security.
Sounds fun.

[BloodyCactus]

i think for 600 they have priced themselves out of the market, you pay 600 and have to use buggy beta software with no sequence search? record 2 hours of data communication, cant search data lol.

600 is beyond hobby market, and commercial business who need this stuff buy Agilent 16902B boxes.

i think, they could not adapt to the cloners and now the cloners have eaten the business in the low end.

[tom66]

Who buys Logic16 when you can get MSO1074Z from Rigol for about $235 more?
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso1000z/mso1074z/

Given it has a whole four 70MHz analog channels,  which can also be used as digital inputs...

Really is too expensive.

[dannyf]

The big advantage of the Logic over other LAs is the unlimited memory

You probably want to do some research on that. It is not that simple.

[LabSpokane]

https://www.saleae.com/counterfeit?gclid=CjwKEAiAodOlBRDCjr-UlJDjtVUSJABR7fxyaen0U8RogDs1tcGSON4qm1dxJjYtJCQmgKv4mW3ibBoCZ4Lw_wcB

Counterfeit Devices
Hello! We are Joe and Mark Garrison, and we have been working for the last 3 years to create a really great Logic Analyzer called Logic. 95% of what makes Logic a fantastic tool is its software, which we've been working on non-stop for the past 3 years. It's an enormous effort, tens upon tens of thousands of lines of code, countless hours of hard work, user feedback, and testing, debugging, and new features. And we aren't stopping -- we're super excited about some of the awesome things we'll be able to do with the software in the months and years ahead.

At least, that's what we hope we'll be able to do. Unfortunately, a number of companies and individuals are knocking off our hardware -- selling hardware that pretends to be Logic and uses our software. We need to be clear: this is hurting us. If the trend continues we may go out of business. When you buy Logic, you're paying for good hardware, it's true, but you're also paying for thousands upon thousands of hours of software development work (quite a bargain when you think about it). And we actually take home much less money than we would if we got regular EE or CSE jobs.

That said, and as much as we hate to get side-tracked, we have to do something about this. We've worked hard to make something that we're proud of, and it really is disheartening and scary to see a few people stealing it to make a quick buck.

The first thing we're going to do is to try and appeal to the better nature of these companies and individuals. We're not convinced they even know what they are doing is wrong, or that it's hurting anyone. We would like to encourage them to create Logic Analyzers, but to create their own software, not steal ours. They could create their own software, or even participate in one of several open source logic analyzer software projects, like Sigrok.

The second thing we're going to do is to develop countermeasures in the software against these knockoff devices. We will attempt to detect them and not let them work with the software. Please understand that if you purchase one of these knockoffs, it is not likely to work with future versions of our software. If we don't take some action soon we could go out of business and have to abandon our quest to make the best logic analyzer software in the world.

Thank you for your understanding, empathy, and for all the support --

Kindest regards,

Joe & Mark Garrison

[dannyf]

The second thing we're going to do is to develop countermeasures in the software against these knockoff devices. We will attempt to detect them and not let them work with the software.

They have. Some earlier versions of the Logic clones don't work with newer software - but the cloners have largely figured out a way around that (EEPROM).

[ovnr]

I just don't get why they raise their prices instead of slash production costs - no more overpriced anodized cases, etc.

I'm not, not going to be spending $200-500 on a LA even if the software is nice. And if what I'm "really paying for" is the software, stop being dumb and capitalize on that, then! Ship the LA with a really limited copy - with a low price - and sell upgrades.


Also, when your solution to "Oh I'm having serious cashflow problems" is "Let's spend thousands and thousands on new tooling that offer little difference!", I just shake my head.


Saleae, won't miss you when you go plop.

[IanB]

95% of what makes Logic a fantastic tool is its software, which we've been working on non-stop for the past 3 years. It's an enormous effort, tens upon tens of thousands of lines of code, countless hours of hard work, user feedback, and testing, debugging, and new features. And we aren't stopping -- we're super excited about some of the awesome things we'll be able to do with the software in the months and years ahead.

With most engineering it is the design effort which costs the money, far more so than the cost of parts or assembly.

If 95% of the value is in the software, then it makes more sense to monetize the software. You could almost invert the business model: "Buy our great software and we will throw in some compatible hardware for free!"  Of course, the software would have to be suitably locked down with appropriate license keys to deter piracy, but it would make it clear where the value lies.

[alank2]

Hi Everyone,

Well, I've been watching the Saleae and the development of their new models over the past year.

When I was originally looking for a logic analyzer, I was looking at the Intronix LogicPort and the Saleae Logic 16.  They ended up running a 20% off coupon and I picked up a Logic 16 for $240.  I later ended it picking up a LogicPort off of eBay for around $150 as well.  They are very different units with different strengths and shortcomings, but the thing is that I truly love them both but I enjoy working with the Saleae Logic 16 more.

I really hope that they are able to resolve the issues they are struggling with.

I've had really great experiences in dealing with them and I am a picky customer so while other companies would consider you asking for too much and want to unload you, I've found that Saleae went further in helping me than many other companies do.

My honest take is this:

Positives:

The software before the new version for the original products was good, but the newer software (which IS compatible with the older products, again something not all companies would do) is a major improvement.  It is multi-platform and more importantly open.  I was able to write the HD44780 protocol analyzer for it without much trouble and with responsive help from them when I asked for it.  The new software DOES have a table that shows protocol results and IS searchable now.  So with the software, I am quite pleased.

Their product is unique.  Most logic analyzers capture to a limited size buffer and then transfer the small amount of data to your system.  I think when they added USB3 to be able to stream more data real time that this is pretty cool.  To add analog to the mix as well also cool.

I can appreciate the pride they put into their product.  The aluminum case, their circuit board looks very nice, etc.  I'm willing to a bit more (not hugely) for something that has been made well and with pride.

They do support their customers.  I think they have a 6 month return policy now which is incredible.  You have plenty of time to evaluate a product and see if it meets your needs or not.

Negatives:

I think they should still offer their older products.  I think it was a mistake to take out the digital only offerings.  Not everyone needs analog.

The pricing was already too high on the pro series.  They started at $399 and $499 and I was hoping they would come down $50 or so on each one to make them more appealing.

They tried to do too much too fast, rolling out 4 new products and new software at one time was too much and it caused things to drag on.  While this may be resolved now, I think it has been a tough year for them.

Thanks,

Alan

[dannyf]

I like Saleae and i hope they can survive. Having done start-ups myself, I know how painful it must be for those guys right now. They make good products and all they need are some business / managerial helps. I hope they get it soon and remain a viable business.

[LabSpokane]

You could almost invert the business model...

I would argue that the business model is already inverted. It is now only up to the bankruptcy court to finish the job. 

[coppice]

Plus I can never remember how to spell their name when googling...

I know what you mean. They seem to be buried deep in the vowels of the internet.

[chicken]

If 95% of the value is in the software, then it makes more sense to monetize the software. You could almost invert the business model: "Buy our great software and we will throw in some compatible hardware for free!"  Of course, the software would have to be suitably locked down with appropriate license keys to deter piracy, but it would make it clear where the value lies.

Too bad the maker/hacker community doesn't want to pay for software.

[tszaboo]

I'm not, not going to be spending $200-500 on a LA even if the software is nice. And if what I'm "really paying for" is the software, stop being dumb and capitalize on that, then! Ship the LA with a really limited copy - with a low price - and sell upgrades.

I preatty much spent more on a USB logic analiser last year. At WORK. For personal use, I really dont have the budget for a device which is rarely used, and over expensive. At work I'm not going to buy something from saleaeeae. Why?
Because they dont have distributors. I cannot buy it from farnell or digikey, and I'm certanly not interested in the bureaucratic bllsht required to buy from an other vendor. So who is the target for these products? Starbucks programmers?

[alank2]

It's almost useless though because you can only search for one value. Say I want to see when register 0x06 is set to 0x82 over I2C. If I search for 0x06 I get every access to that register, and if I search for 0x82 I get every instance of that value being used in any context. What I need is to search for 0x06 followed by 0x82, and preferably only during an I2C write transaction as I don't care about reads.

I think they could pull this off because I believe the data is grouped.  You can see this if you look at their SDK documentation.  I think they have a level for frame, byte, etc., so they could create a search that looks for multiple values in the largest grouping such as a frame.  I don't recall the exact groupings but I remember reading they are there.  I don't know that all their analyzers properly group into them though at this point.

[BloodyCactus]

I think they could pull this off because I believe the data is grouped.  You can see this if you look at their SDK documentation.  I think they have a level for frame, byte, etc., so they could create a search that looks for multiple values in the largest grouping such as a frame.  I don't recall the exact groupings but I remember reading they are there.  I don't know that all their analyzers properly group into them though at this point.

but your paying 600 dollars for something that is not there right now, and may never be there.

[Rigby]

Who buys Logic16 when you can get MSO1074Z from Rigol for about $235 more?
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso1000z/mso1074z/

Given it has a whole four 70MHz analog channels,  which can also be used as digital inputs...

Really is too expensive.

Except the Logic Pro 16 has analog on all 16 channels.  It doesn't have the voltage safety of a proper scope, though.

[alank2]

And also that honestly using a LA on a scope is a PITA imho.  I can do with a PC probably 5 times faster.  The other thing is that a scope is meant to trigger on a small area repeatedly and that isn't necessarily what you are looking to do with an LA.  That is a learning thing though, you can zoom out on the scope and prevent that as long as the scope has enough memory and thankfully these days they do.

[Smokey]

Don't pretty much all mixed signal scopes have PC software these days so you can do the digital analysis there instead of on the tiny screen?  Doesn't that pretty much turn any scope with a LA into a "USB/network/whatever Logic Analyzer"?

[nctnico]

IMHO an MSO is the easiest to use for 99% of the logic analysis tasks. Especially when it has decoders.

[LabSpokane]

https://www.saleae.com/about

It's more fun to be a pirate than to join the navy.

Probably not the best quotation to have on Saleae's website about now...

[Howardlong]

Trust me, you can easily do better than that.

Speaking as an OEM, believe me, I don't need to trust you ;-)

[Zbig]

https://www.saleae.com/about

It's more fun to be a pirate than to join the navy.

Probably not the best quotation to have on Saleae's website about now...

They've always been way too "Apple'y" for my taste. But as long as they provide actual technical data instead of saying "You don't have to care how many channels does this LA have or what the maximum sample rate is - it just works. Magic." then whatever, I guess... Still seems a bit out of place (the Apple "ethos" in T&M field) to me, though. And I think that Joe Garrison's (CEO) fascination with Jobs and Apple won't allow them to release anything they'd consider "cheap" or "non-premium" - that seems to be baked deep into their company's philosophy.

Disclaimer: I do own original (digital-only) Logic16.