Author Topic: SciFi movies and pathetic misconceptions of tech failing for the story line.  (Read 34514 times)

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Offline David Hess

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Why do time machines always hold station? That is, they always arrive at exactly the same geodetic location in the past, present and future. Never the true motion of the earth's rotation, orbit, transit and the associated perturbations are taken into consideration. Not even tectonic and erosional elements either.

Niven's time machines had to be anchored to their start point in order to return to their origin.  Heinlein's time machines implicitly could travel in space also.  Forward's time machines were wormholes with endpoints that could be moved but were otherwise fixed in space and time, and also because of the physics involving negative mass, could be used as reaction-less drives.

Also, throw out conservation of mass and energy.  Check out Larry Niven's The Theory and Practice of Time Travel.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 08:15:36 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline coppice

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Why do time machines always hold station? That is, they always arrive at exactly the same geodetic location in the past, present and future. Never the true motion of the earth's rotation, orbit, transit and the associated perturbations are taken into consideration. Not even tectonic and erosional elements either.

Niven's time machines had to be anchored to their start point in order to return to their origin.  Heinlein's time machines implicitly could travel in space also.  Forward's time machines were wormholes with endpoints that could be moved, and also because of the physics involving negative mass, could be used as reaction-less drives.
Most of the fictional time machines which are combined space and time machines still have the issue that their velocity is magically right after the hop, and they are, say, sitting nicely on the surface of some target planet. If they also deal with matching the velocity of the target they are rendezvousing with, there would need to be a massive energy exchange (and without further technical means, some serious G forces), as typically a large hop through space would put you among things travelling at an enormous velocity relative to where you came from.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Some just make time go faster while you sit still. So they can happily stay in the same place as they move with the earth.
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Online tggzzz

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Larry Niven had fun with his JumpShift teleportation machines, e.g. if you teleport from the equator to a pole, or change altitude, the kinetic and potential energy has to come/go too.

That was also the first time I came across CamelCase typography for names. It is common now, but I think Niven might have invented it.
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Offline AndyBeez

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I suppose a time machine remains geo-effective because it makes a kind of temporal vacuole in the space time continuum? Well that's how I'm explaining all of that Star Trek, go find a Humpback Whale in the 1980s, garbage.

Another thought regarding time travel, what about the microbes riding shotgun with the traveller? A time traveller from 1989 << "Excellent" >> arriving today to pick up their sure bet copy of Greys Sports Almanac 2022, might transport the Covid Arcturus variant back to the valley - causing the timeline to skew into an alternate tangent; resulting in Donald "Biff" Trump not becoming US President. When travellers from Europe arrived in the new world carrying influenza, syphilis and smallpox, their pathogens decimated the indigenous populations. So what diseases from the future might cause issues for the ethical time tourist?
 

Offline coppice

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I suppose a time machine remains geo-effective because it makes a kind of temporal vacuole in the space time continuum? Well that's how I'm explaining all of that Star Trek, go find a Humpback Whale in the 1980s, garbage.

Another thought regarding time travel, what about the microbes riding shotgun with the traveller? A time traveller from 1989 << "Excellent" >> arriving today to pick up their sure bet copy of Greys Sports Almanac 2022, might transport the Covid Arcturus variant back to the valley - causing the timeline to skew into an alternate tangent; resulting in Donald "Biff" Trump not becoming US President. When travellers from Europe arrived in the new world carrying influenza, syphilis and smallpox, their pathogens decimated the indigenous populations. So what diseases from the future might cause issues for the ethical time tourist?
Biohazards aren't generally well handled in any kind of science fiction. More serious writers, like Artthur C Clark, point them out, but mostly handwave a solution. In reality these would be really tough issues. Most time travel tales have someone appearing on the same spot at another time, like that place was just a vacuum moments before. In reality the air would need to be moved out of the way. A few tales address things going horribly wrong when someone appears at a spot that now has, say, a building, but the general issue of atmosphere is completely ignored.
 

Offline AndyBeez

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... A few tales address things going horribly wrong when someone appears at a spot that now has, say, a building, but the general issue of atmosphere is completely ignored.
Terminator does it by burning a landing sphere in the target space. Not very practical :(
 

Offline TimFox

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Larry Niven had fun with his JumpShift teleportation machines, e.g. if you teleport from the equator to a pole, or change altitude, the kinetic and potential energy has to come/go too.

That was also the first time I came across CamelCase typography for names. It is common now, but I think Niven might have invented it.

If I remember correctly, Niven's teleportation system conserved momentum by having a heavily-loaded barge anchored in Lake Michigan to absorb individual impulses, which approximately cancelled out over the week.
 

Offline David Hess

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Another thought regarding time travel, what about the microbes riding shotgun with the traveller? A time traveller from 1989 << "Excellent" >> arriving today to pick up their sure bet copy of Greys Sports Almanac 2022, might transport the Covid Arcturus variant back to the valley - causing the timeline to skew into an alternate tangent; resulting in Donald "Biff" Trump not becoming US President. When travellers from Europe arrived in the new world carrying influenza, syphilis and smallpox, their pathogens decimated the indigenous populations. So what diseases from the future might cause issues for the ethical time tourist?

With those small differences in time, the disease is still a contemporary of the life it infects.  Part of the Red Queen effect is that parasites and diseases are adapted to the life they encounter and not the life of the past or future, so it is not a given that a "modern" infectious disease would be well adapted to the distant past, or the reverse.  Countering that, the most deadly diseases are ones which are *not* well adapted.

I think a more interesting aspect is the Red Queen effect itself between predators and prey.  Would a modern animal simply outclass its distant ancestors?  In some cases this will absolutely happen, which brings a whole new angle on introducing an invasive species.  How good were the dinosaurs really compared to a mammal that evolved 250 million years later?
 

Offline David Hess

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Larry Niven had fun with his JumpShift teleportation machines, e.g. if you teleport from the equator to a pole, or change altitude, the kinetic and potential energy has to come/go too.

That was also the first time I came across CamelCase typography for names. It is common now, but I think Niven might have invented it.

If I remember correctly, Niven's teleportation system conserved momentum by having a heavily-loaded barge anchored in Lake Michigan to absorb individual impulses, which approximately cancelled out over the week.

Eventually the momentum transfer and energy difference was dissipated like that, but not all booths supported it, which led to interesting locked room mysteries.

As Niven points out in his Theory and Practice of Teleportation, you can make a space drive for Earth by teleporting something like iron filings uphill so that they fall back into the transmitter.  Of course this needs to be put at a pole or the iron filing will precess and miss the transmitter.  Also use a vacuum.  In 30 days, the mass of the iron filing has doubled ...
 

Offline tszaboo

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So if you just burn radial out, this doesn't work at all, and you fall back to earth, quite fast.

You can, if you reach escape velocity, then you won't fall back to Earth. Less than escape velocity, then yes, you'll fall back.
So as long as you are traveling at more than 11.2 km/s away from Earth, it doesn't matter which direction you are going*. But this is not what we do when launching a satellite which we want to orbit the Earth. Then we need to lean the rocket into a gravity turn to give it horizontal velocity in addition to getting it out of the atmosphere. Ideally a satellite, in a perfectly circular orbit around a perfectly spherical Earth, has zero vertical velocity relative to the surface of the Earth.

*  Well, you might come back in a few years if your new solar orbit intersects that of Earth's orbit around the Sun. (That's why Elon's Tesla will pay us a visit sometime in the future)
Well, you are the one who is insisting into launching satellites with only radial out burns. And yes, of course if you leave the spere of influence of earth you don't fall back, but that's also a bad strategy to go into an orbit now, isn't it?
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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So if you just burn radial out, this doesn't work at all, and you fall back to earth, quite fast.

You can, if you reach escape velocity, then you won't fall back to Earth. Less than escape velocity, then yes, you'll fall back.
So as long as you are traveling at more than 11.2 km/s away from Earth, it doesn't matter which direction you are going*. But this is not what we do when launching a satellite which we want to orbit the Earth. Then we need to lean the rocket into a gravity turn to give it horizontal velocity in addition to getting it out of the atmosphere. Ideally a satellite, in a perfectly circular orbit around a perfectly spherical Earth, has zero vertical velocity relative to the surface of the Earth.

*  Well, you might come back in a few years if your new solar orbit intersects that of Earth's orbit around the Sun. (That's why Elon's Tesla will pay us a visit sometime in the future)
Well, you are the one who is insisting into launching satellites with only radial out burns. And yes, of course if you leave the spere of influence of earth you don't fall back, but that's also a bad strategy to go into an orbit now, isn't it?

Nope... Just taking issue with the line highlighted above.
Of coarse, launching satellites meant to go into Earth orbit using that method would be a failure.
But you could go to Mars that way, instead of going into low Earth orbit first, but it's not done that way for various reasons.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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There are a great many ways to move around in space when you have essentially unlimited energy and "magic" propulsion systems.  And orbit is as good a word as any to describe what they are doing.   No one gets particularly upset when a pilot comes on the intercom and says "We are going to be orbiting the airport for a while waiting for a landing slot".
 

Offline MathWizard

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There's some disaster movie where they literally "fly" something like a Star Trek shuttle craft, into the CORE of the Earth, in modern times. There's sci-fi that does crazy stuff, but this is something else. It's not some tunnel boring machine either. I don't think it has lasers  or anything vaporizing the rock in front of them either. Maybe it did, but still.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2023, 09:26:39 pm by MathWizard »
 

Online coppercone2

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that kind of technology is attributed to a plasma drill, the idea is there is a strong hot plasma made infront of something that melts the rock and thermal design so that the rock is solidified after the craft to form a tunnel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_deep_drilling_technology

I would say it more like.. swims through rock rather then flies. If you superheated everything to make a gas bubble you could fly like cavitation craft, but that is technology... 10m years in the future maybe lol

If you want it fast you would need some kind of chiller to solidify the rock fast enough so there is not a bunch of lava behind the craft (different thermal conductivity and specific heat of lava), also possibly some kind of thermionic cooling effect would need to be used for that

But IMO not that crazy, its kind of like cutting through ice with a string, Just very hard.

Often done with plasma cutters to put holes in metal, but its not that good because usually the hole is hardened as fuck (nitrided), so its hardly a good pilot hole, I would prefer virgin steel (but it could serve as a OK pilot hole for an annular cutter center shaft if you got that)... if you deal with plasma cutter you know how much of a bitch hardened steel on the edge can be, thats what they hide in the brochures about productivity, it seems much worse then oxyfuel cut steel. Best way is to smack it with a hammer and chisel if you don't mind deformation to crack it of, then grind.

A combination approach is interesting too, if you have the power, to crush the rock with carbide cutters then melt it on the back 'exhaust chute' to make a glassy tunnel
« Last Edit: April 20, 2023, 10:19:43 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline rdl

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Core

It's actually a pretty good movie if you can do a little belief suspension.

There's some disaster movie where they literally "fly" something like a Star Trek shuttle craft, into the CORE of the Earth, in modern times. There's sci-fi that does crazy stuff, but this is something else. It's not some tunnel boring machine either. I don't think it has lasers  or anything vaporizing the rock in front of them either. Maybe it did, but still.
 

Online coppercone2

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kinda wonder how good those ships would be if they have a force field, if you can stop all those explosions maybe the shield generator can backfeed to make a plasma drill, those shields all seem plasma based anyway. Startrek ships might be natural digging machines
« Last Edit: April 20, 2023, 10:25:31 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline tszaboo

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So if you just burn radial out, this doesn't work at all, and you fall back to earth, quite fast.

You can, if you reach escape velocity, then you won't fall back to Earth. Less than escape velocity, then yes, you'll fall back.
So as long as you are traveling at more than 11.2 km/s away from Earth, it doesn't matter which direction you are going*. But this is not what we do when launching a satellite which we want to orbit the Earth. Then we need to lean the rocket into a gravity turn to give it horizontal velocity in addition to getting it out of the atmosphere. Ideally a satellite, in a perfectly circular orbit around a perfectly spherical Earth, has zero vertical velocity relative to the surface of the Earth.

*  Well, you might come back in a few years if your new solar orbit intersects that of Earth's orbit around the Sun. (That's why Elon's Tesla will pay us a visit sometime in the future)
Well, you are the one who is insisting into launching satellites with only radial out burns. And yes, of course if you leave the spere of influence of earth you don't fall back, but that's also a bad strategy to go into an orbit now, isn't it?

Nope... Just taking issue with the line highlighted above.
Of coarse, launching satellites meant to go into Earth orbit using that method would be a failure.
But you could go to Mars that way, instead of going into low Earth orbit first, but it's not done that way for various reasons.
You really gotta stop straw manning, or cherry picking some extreme boundary condition, where something doesn't apply.
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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So if you just burn radial out, this doesn't work at all, and you fall back to earth, quite fast.

You can, if you reach escape velocity, then you won't fall back to Earth. Less than escape velocity, then yes, you'll fall back.
So as long as you are traveling at more than 11.2 km/s away from Earth, it doesn't matter which direction you are going*. But this is not what we do when launching a satellite which we want to orbit the Earth. Then we need to lean the rocket into a gravity turn to give it horizontal velocity in addition to getting it out of the atmosphere. Ideally a satellite, in a perfectly circular orbit around a perfectly spherical Earth, has zero vertical velocity relative to the surface of the Earth.

*  Well, you might come back in a few years if your new solar orbit intersects that of Earth's orbit around the Sun. (That's why Elon's Tesla will pay us a visit sometime in the future)
Well, you are the one who is insisting into launching satellites with only radial out burns. And yes, of course if you leave the spere of influence of earth you don't fall back, but that's also a bad strategy to go into an orbit now, isn't it?

Nope... Just taking issue with the line highlighted above.
Of coarse, launching satellites meant to go into Earth orbit using that method would be a failure.
But you could go to Mars that way, instead of going into low Earth orbit first, but it's not done that way for various reasons.
You really gotta stop straw manning, or cherry picking some extreme boundary condition, where something doesn't apply.

Just admit that you were wrong and move on.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Offline MaddyRZ

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Dark Matter, The Expanse, and Altered Carbon. Doctor Who was a nice show, but not anymore. For me it was the casting. After 50 years of the Doctor being a male character, I didn't see the point in changing it given the narrative. Jodie Whittaker is an amazing actress no doubt, but Doctor Who is a role that not anyone can play given the long history of the show. There's no progression in the show storywise.
 

Offline 5U4GB

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Plot line: a group of random political prisoners steal the most powerful fighter spaceship in the galaxy. Later they find an omniscient computer. Each episode they still manage to get themselves into scrapes with vastly inferior opposition forces.

You're not watching it for the sophisticated plot, you're watching it for Paul Darrow and, for a lighter note, Michael Keating.  It also contains a lot of things that later became common in other series like longer story arcs rather than one-episode set pieces, the creators of several later series were big fans of Blake's 7.

Also that characterisation is vastly oversimplifying it, the same to some extent would hold for about half the Star Trek series: Powerful spaceship(s), powerful computers, and they still get into scrapes etc.
 

Offline 5U4GB

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As a brit I have to recomend Red Dwarf. Science no so much but there is some clever filming. They solve who the man on the grassy knowl was. Episodes such as Back to Reality where before its time.

Oh, and then you can't miss Hyperdrive: "They've shot the captain.... they've shot first officer York... now they're turning their guns on me, I wonder what they'll do next?".  Or the Queppunian Doom Ray: "I now have a weapon of unimaginable power… The DOOM RAY!  Watch! As my DOOM RAY disintegrates him.... in under 3 days...  And then, when it's had a week to recharge, it's your turn!".

Not to mention the Lallakiss Battle Song.
 

Offline 5U4GB

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Its incredibly hard to make a story flow if you are going to be accurate. Its would be tool long, and too complex. You just have to give the author some licence.

Consider an accurate movie rendition of some space manoeuver:

Ensign X: Initiating Womble manoeuver.
Crew sits there flapping their hands over panels with random lit symbols on them.
Time passes
Ensign X breaks wind.
More time passes.
Ensign X: Well, that's the end of my shift, can I get anyone anything before I turn in?
Ensign Y: Nah, all good, thanks!
More time passes.
Ensign Y sneezes.
Several more hours pass.
Ensign Y leaves at the end of the shift.
Several more hours pass. Ensign X returns for their next shift.
Ensign X: How's it going?
Ensign Z: So far so good, another two days to go.
Ensign X: Yup.
More time passes.

Not exactly riveting viewing is it?  I mean, it's cheap to produce and all, but I don't think it'll hold onto its audience.
 

Online tggzzz

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Plot line: a group of random political prisoners steal the most powerful fighter spaceship in the galaxy. Later they find an omniscient computer. Each episode they still manage to get themselves into scrapes with vastly inferior opposition forces.

You're not watching it for the sophisticated plot, you're watching it for Paul Darrow and, for a lighter note, Michael Keating.  It also contains a lot of things that later became common in other series like longer story arcs rather than one-episode set pieces, the creators of several later series were big fans of Blake's 7.

Surely you mean Jacqueline Pearce or Glynis Barber.

Quote
Also that characterisation is vastly oversimplifying it, the same to some extent would hold for about half the Star Trek series: Powerful spaceship(s), powerful computers, and they still get into scrapes etc.

Star Drek had equally (or more) powerful opponents. Always hated the "global reset" requirement (notably missing from ST: Discovery) though.

B5 Rulez. Hope there's good news later today, and that the WGA strike doesn't get in the way.
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Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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