Author Topic: Self driving liability  (Read 4234 times)

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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Self driving liability
« on: April 21, 2022, 03:02:24 am »
I came across an article today about new rules being drafted that accidents caused by self driving cars to fall with the insurance company. I don't know how the insurance company will apply this, whether they'll up the charges for everybody or just those with self driving cars if they become involved in too many accidents.

Shouldn't it be the manufacturer responsibility in a situation for any accident caused by decisions it makes without notifying the driver to resume driving?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/apr/20/self-driving-car-users-could-watch-films-on-motorway-under-new-dft-proposals
Quote
Wed 20 Apr 2022 00.01 BST Tobi Thomas

Users of self-driving cars will be able to watch films on the motorway under planned changes to the Highway Code, although it will remain illegal to use mobile phones. The update, proposed by the Department for Transport (DfT), will allow those in the driver’s seat to use a car’s built-in screens to watch movies and TV programmes.

The new rules also state that insurance companies will be financially liable, rather than individual motorists, for accidents in self-driving cars. However, those behind the wheel must be ready to resume control of the vehicle when they are prompted – such as when they approach motorway exits. These measures were described as an interim measure by the government to support the early deployment of self-driving vehicles. Although there are no vehicles currently approved for self-driving on roads in the UK, the first could be approved later this year. The introduction of the technology is likely to begin with vehicles travelling at slow speeds on motorways, such as in congested traffic.

In April 2021, the DfT said it would allow hands-free driving in vehicles with lane-keeping technology on congested motorways. Existing technology, including cruise control and automatic stop/start, is classified as being “assistive”, meaning that users must remain fully in control. Trudy Harrison, a transport minister, said the updates were the 4 result of a public consultation, and 1 would be a “major milestone in our safe introduction of self-driving vehicles”, which would “revolutionise the way we travel”. She added: “This exciting technology :bullshit: is developing at pace right here in Great Britain and we’re ensuring we have strong foundations in place for drivers when it takes to our roads.

“In doing so, we can help improve travel for all while boosting economic growth :bullshit: across the nation and securing Britain’s place as a global science superpower.” Steve Gooding, the director of the pro-motoring thinktank RAC Foundation, said: “The Highway Code has been updated a number of times in recent years to reflect the rapidly changing transport world we live in, and these latest additions will help us all understand what we must and must not do as we move forward to an environment where cars drive themselves.

“The final part of the jigsaw is to ensure these amendments are widely communicated to, ​and understood by, vehicle owners. 3 Vehicle manufacturers and sellers will have a vital role to play in ensuring their customers fully appreciate the capabilities of the cars they buy and the rules that govern them.” Earlier this year, the Law Commission of England and Wales and the Scots Law commission published a joint report, which recommended the introduction of a new Automated Vehicles Act. How self-driving cars got stuck in the slow lane

The proposals for the act would be that when a car is authorised to be “self-driving”, and those features are in use, the user would no longer be responsible for how the car drives, but rather the company which obtained the authorisation would. Therefore, 2 the user would be unable to be prosecuted for offences that come directly from the driving, and so would be immune to offences that include dangerous driving. The UK, Scottish and Welsh governments are deciding whether to accept the report’s recommendations and bring them into legislation, with the governments expecting to have a full regulatory framework in place to support the widespread deployment of driverless vehicle technology by 2025.

I see they are letting a bit of slack off the drivers for slow speed and in congestion as I have seen many do already over the decades but that can change very quickly attimes.

What if a vehicle is self driving and the driver is on their own watching stuff and becomes tired and looses too much attention to be alerted?

1 How can she be certain of this?

2 It could just be an excuse for someone not to control their vehicle.
Doesn't sound safe to me.

3 A customer may just want it to drive from A to B, make savings on the fuel/electric bill, cost of insurance, cost of maintenance of the vehicle and may not care or appreciate any fancy stuff that may or may not be provided with it.

4 I have to find this public consultation.

They are talking about it in the name of: "global science superpower",  “revolutionise the way we travel”, "boosting economic growth" when some drivers could be made too complacent "appreciating the onboard fancy stuff to a point of being alert to control their car.

I know in the past they charged young drivers more in the UK for things like turbo's (okay that could encourage speeding), four wheel drive (maybe I seeing it wrong but isn't that suppose to give the car more grip nd make it safe in certain conditions such as ice) and if I remember many years before that power steering which helps steer.

What do you think?

« Last Edit: April 21, 2022, 03:25:35 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2022, 03:15:08 am »
The day will never come that I turn over driving my car to an AI.

OTOH, I rather like battery EVs.  Turn on "Sport" mode and they get downright frisky.


 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2022, 03:07:32 pm »
I could see an argument for making the insurance company responsible, which would get around some tricky legal rabbit holes. However, what I can't figure is why watching TV would be OK but using a mobile not - at least with a mobile you could be watching the road at the same time!
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 03:17:24 pm »
I could see an argument for making the insurance company responsible, which would get around some tricky legal rabbit holes. However, what I can't figure is why watching TV would be OK but using a mobile not - at least with a mobile you could be watching the road at the same time!

You don't really want to dis-incentivize hands free calling, breeds bad habits. Most of the time these cars won't be self driving after all, just during long motor-way traffic jams.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2022, 03:47:27 pm »
I could see an argument for making the insurance company responsible, which would get around some tricky legal rabbit holes.
I don't know how car insurance in the UK works. Over here in the NL the owner of the car is supposed to have insurance that covers any damage caused from using the vehicle. That ofcourse doesn't mean the driver can do as he/she pleases. The driver is responsible for adhering to the traffic laws. I wonder how that would play out if the self driving system is 'responsible'. Think about speeding tickets. With the insurance company being liable for the self driving system, it would also mean that they would need to pay parking and speeding tickets.

All in all it seems much more logical to me to have the driver liable for any traffic law violations. After all it is the driver who chooses to enable the self driving system.
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Online AndyC_772

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 04:00:34 pm »
I could see an argument for making the insurance company responsible, which would get around some tricky legal rabbit holes. However, what I can't figure is why watching TV would be OK but using a mobile not - at least with a mobile you could be watching the road at the same time!

The logic is that the TV is part of the car's built-in infotainment system, so it can be automatically disabled when the self-driving system needs to hand control back to the human operator.

A mobile phone is a physically separate device, not under the control of the vehicle's electronics, so it can't be disabled in the same way.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2022, 05:42:32 pm »
Liability of AI-based stuff has been discussed in quite a few other threads. That's a burning topic.

The problem is that it's almost intractable in the general case. But I think this inevitably leads, in time, to a complete change in the very concept of liability. IMO (and backed by arguments we can read here and there by AI "proponents"), this is leading to a society governed purely by statistics, not by responsibility or liability.

What that means is that, if some automated system statistically gives a lower accident ratio than the usual, human-driven system, then one can literally forget about liability altogether. The fact insurance companies are already considered for almost blindingly paying for any damage goes entirely with this idea. If one can convince insurance companies that self-driving vehicles will significantly lower the overall accident risk, then they can be convinced (and laws follow) that there is no need to define any liability: it would cost more than just paying for damages and calling it a day.

Of course, while many find this perfectly reasonable and a nice progress, that poses unique moral and ethics issues.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2022, 05:43:41 pm »
The driver is responsible for adhering to the traffic laws. I wonder how that would play out if the self driving system is 'responsible'. Think about speeding tickets. With the insurance company being liable for the self driving system, it would also mean that they would need to pay parking and speeding tickets.

All in all it seems much more logical to me to have the driver liable for any traffic law violations. After all it is the driver who chooses to enable the self driving system.

Technically, yes. The driver is the responsible person here too. But practically you can't expect a human to remain alert and on the ball when he's traveled for 2 hours doing absolutely nothing at all. So you might then suggest that where the human has handed over control to a certified (because it will need to be) automated system, that system is reasonably in control. And the responsible entity for making sure it works is the manufacturer. But I can't see any manufacturer selling stuff if they're going to face serious charges for anything and everything that goes on.

Insurance companies, OTOH, can be engaged by the manufacturer and the driver, and they'll be able to price in the cost of being the responsible entity. Further, they can refuse to insure where they think it's a bum deal, which would have the effect of removing dodgy stuff/people from the market/road without any lengthy court cases.

Quote from: AndyC_772
The logic is that the TV is part of the car's built-in infotainment system

Surely the deciding factor should be whether it distracts the driver or not, regardless of how it's supplied.

 
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Online AndyC_772

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2022, 07:28:23 pm »
Quote from: AndyC_772
The logic is that the TV is part of the car's built-in infotainment system
Surely the deciding factor should be whether it distracts the driver or not, regardless of how it's supplied.

That's precisely the logic that's being applied - the in-car TV cannot distract the driver because it's switched off when the driver is required to take control, whereas a phone can't be automatically disabled by the car's systems and so can be a distraction.

Offline PlainName

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2022, 07:47:39 pm »
The implication there is that the driver must watch TV in order to be notified to take control! What if he just wants to watch the scenery? If he can be notified without the TV for that, the same applies for whatever else he is doing.

Further, even if the TV goes blank and flashed EMERGENCY in big red letters, the driver is going to take a long time to get his act together and die horribly. The 'TV turns off when appropriate' thing appears to be to notify the driver that he's approaching his off junction rather than for something going wrong. Loud sirens, flashing lights, juddering brakes... all can be used to distract the phone user.
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2022, 07:59:58 pm »
I came across an article today about new rules being drafted that accidents caused by self driving cars to fall with the insurance company. I don't know how the insurance company will apply this, whether they'll up the charges for everybody or just those with self driving cars if they become involved in too many accidents.

Shouldn't it be the manufacturer responsibility in a situation for any accident caused by decisions it makes without notifying the driver to resume driving?

It sounds like you're assuming that accidents will increase with automated driving whereas  the automotive industry predicts fewer accidents. Or, the accidents that do happen will be less severe and less costly.

In any case, I think that the typical reaction of distrust comes from a lack of understanding. The fact is, there might be a time far in the future where we get into a car, tell the car where we want to go, and then wait to arrive. But, that's not the near future. The visions of Elon Musk aside, autodriving will come incrementally and has already begun on a large scale. Many new cars today will brake autonomously if an imminent collision is detected. Adaptive cruise control is common place and appreciated (and trusted!) by lots of drivers. Alarms squeal if the car drifts out of lane or gets too close to another car while moving. It's just a small step to have the steering respond automatically to prevent an accident. It's just one more small step to setting your cruise control on the highway and letting the car not only maintain a safe speed automatically, but also maintain a safe distance from the car in front (already common place) and steer automatically to stay in lane. I trust adaptive cruise control, and I think it wouldn't be hard for me to trust a system that follows the road automatically.

That's still a long ways from the car with a digital chauffeur, but add GPS....

Anyway, the goal is not just to make things more convenient for the lazy, but to make traveling safer for everyone. Personally, I think I would feel safer traveling 70mph down the highway if I knew that all of the cars around me were controlled by sophisticated automated equipment and not by a human that's tired or irritated or distracted.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2022, 08:02:09 pm »
Further, even if the TV goes blank and flashed EMERGENCY in big red letters, the driver is going to take a long time to get his act together and die horribly.

Worse yet, the driver may think that this screen is part of the movie and do nothing.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2022, 08:06:46 pm »
Further, even if the TV goes blank and flashed EMERGENCY in big red letters, the driver is going to take a long time to get his act together and die horribly.

Worse yet, the driver may think that this screen is part of the movie and do nothing.

BTDT. Well, not quite but similar.

In a previous life I was a projectionist, and often I would amble into the auditorium to monitor proceedings. One time I'm a watching a scene in a film and the screen goes completely white - can't recall what the film was about but the possibility of an explosion in the story wasn't far fetched. Took me a few very long seconds to realise the film had broken before rushing off to fix it. In fact, I might have been the last to figure it out  :palm:
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2022, 08:52:42 pm »
The day will never come that I turn over driving my car to an AI.

OTOH, I rather like battery EVs.  Turn on "Sport" mode and they get downright frisky.

Yes for me the whole point in owning a car, especially a relatively high performance car is that I get to drive it myself. I drove a Tesla Y for a bit and it was a blast. Fastest car I've ever driven.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2022, 08:55:38 pm »
The implication there is that the driver must watch TV in order to be notified to take control! What if he just wants to watch the scenery? If he can be notified without the TV for that, the same applies for whatever else he is doing.

Further, even if the TV goes blank and flashed EMERGENCY in big red letters, the driver is going to take a long time to get his act together and die horribly. The 'TV turns off when appropriate' thing appears to be to notify the driver that he's approaching his off junction rather than for something going wrong. Loud sirens, flashing lights, juddering brakes... all can be used to distract the phone user.

I think it's totally obvious and expected that this will happen. It is well proven that if you take away the necessity to focus, the brain very quickly finds something else to be absorbed in. It is completely unreasonable to have a machine driving a car and expect a human driver to be able to take over at any time. There is no way that a human is going to stay engaged for more than a few minutes of the machine driving before they zone out and mentally disconnect. The accident will be over before they realize what happened.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2022, 04:25:32 am »
Isn't there a similar problem for airline pilots on long flights when the autopilot is flying?
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Offline david77

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2022, 07:50:52 am »
I don't see self driving cars materialising in a big way any time soon. It's like AI and nuclear fusion: Marketing hype.
It's much more probable that the era of individual transport will be largely over (relatively) soon.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2022, 09:38:20 am »
The driver is responsible for adhering to the traffic laws. I wonder how that would play out if the self driving system is 'responsible'. Think about speeding tickets. With the insurance company being liable for the self driving system, it would also mean that they would need to pay parking and speeding tickets.

All in all it seems much more logical to me to have the driver liable for any traffic law violations. After all it is the driver who chooses to enable the self driving system.

Technically, yes. The driver is the responsible person here too. But practically you can't expect a human to remain alert and on the ball when he's traveled for 2 hours doing absolutely nothing at all. So you might then suggest that where the human has handed over control to a certified (because it will need to be) automated system, that system is reasonably in control. And the responsible entity for making sure it works is the manufacturer. But I can't see any manufacturer selling stuff if they're going to face serious charges for anything and everything that goes on.

Insurance companies, OTOH, can be engaged by the manufacturer and the driver, and they'll be able to price in the cost of being the responsible entity. Further, they can refuse to insure where they think it's a bum deal, which would have the effect of removing dodgy stuff/people from the market/road without any lengthy court cases.
I can follow that logic but it makes me wonder: what about speeding tickets? And what in case the car isn't insured (I know cars should be insured by law but there are still situations where people drive around without insurance)?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2022, 09:41:09 am by nctnico »
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2022, 11:11:12 am »
Quote
what about speeding tickets?

That's a good question. The other day I dropped into a 50 limit (from a 70) and reset my cruise control, except that on this vehicle the control operates the opposite way to my other vehicle. Instead of setting the new speed to 50 it reverted to the previously set 70 and shot up above the limit before I realised. Could I have argued in court that I hadn't intended to speed, and although I was notionally in control the vehicle didn't respond appropriately to my reasonable command? (Yes, I know it was my fault for giving the wrong command, but I could argue about intention and reasonable confusion.)

Currently I believe I would get the nick, but there must be some point at which a competent person is reasonably unable to affect the result. Do they still get nicked anyway, or where is that point?
 

Offline vad

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2022, 11:23:48 am »
I would rather focus on manufacturer’s liability. In USA there is no liability limit, and no insurance company would be able to protect self-driven car manufacturer from enormous claims. A successful class action following several fatal accidents would be able to bring any self-driven car maker to the brink of bankruptcy.
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2022, 12:30:23 pm »
Isn't there a similar problem for airline pilots on long flights when the autopilot is flying?

I am only familiar with US FAA rules.  We have 3 categories: Scheduled airlines, Private and charter (i.e., "General Aviation"), and Military.

Large scheduled airliners are highly integrated.  I learned recently, for example, that in landing, the pilot cannot control some functions like braking and reverse thrust if the radar altimeter and/or some other electronic functions do not work.  There was a recent example on a transcontinental flight to Paris.  Plane was in good shape, but something was wrong with the automatic landing system(s), and the pilots had to declare an emergency.  Add, of course the 737 MAX disasters of a couple of years ago.  Boeing has that liability.  My take was that I don't want to fly in any airplane where having the pilots in control is an emergency. ;)

In smaller GA aircraft, the pilot is responsible.  Sure, the manufacturers get sued too, but the FAA assigns blame on the pilot(s) regardless of the autopilot.  (Some large aircraft used for scheduled service are also flown under GA rules.)   It is not uncommon to see an accident report with the conclusion that the pilot failed to maintain a safe altitude and/or airspeed.  As just one example, there was an incident in Southern California many years ago in which the ground radar controller vectored a small GA Beechcraft into a mountain.  The pilot was still blamed for not maintaining awareness of the terrain. 
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2022, 03:14:15 pm »
The day will never come that I turn over driving my car to an AI.


   This times 100,000!  IMO if the "rider" wants to go somewhere and doesn't want to "drive" then they should take a cab or a bus!

  The "Economic growth" and other arguments in favor of self driving vehicles are total BS IMO!  Well for everyone other than the lawyers that will be needed when the driverless vehicles start running people down..
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2022, 03:22:11 pm »


Yes for me the whole point in owning a car, especially a relatively high performance car is that I get to drive it myself. I drove a Tesla Y for a bit and it was a blast. Fastest car I've ever driven.

  I've never looked at one and don't know a lot about them buy my brother in law just ordered a model Y and he usually knows what he's doing.

     And I completely agree that being able DRIVE is the complete point of owning any car. I would absolutely HATE living in any big city where car ownership and/or driving was impossible.
 

Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2022, 03:34:39 pm »
This thread illustrates the dominance of emotion over logic in discussions of this topic.  Specifically the arguments about liability for speeding tickets when in self driving mode. 

In my mind there is only a very minor argument here.  In general, in self driving mode the car should never speed.  There are only two reasons I can think of for this not being the case.  First, if the vendor of the software set it that way.  In which case liability is obvious and indisputable.  The second case is if the speed limit has changed and the database available to the self driving software is not updated.  Liability here could be disputable, but this is relatively uncommon (and also likely to trip up a human driver).
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Self driving liability
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2022, 04:10:56 pm »
When driving is outlawed, only outlaws will drive cars.

That's a joke, meant to highlight the lunacy and paranoia. Nobody has even hinted that driving will be outlawed in the foreseeable future.
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