Sexism in technical literature

[zapta]

To get us back on topic: http://hackaday.com/2014/05/16/augmented-reality-with-an-fpga/#comment-1470201

Skeptical explains the problem well.

By this logic this woman that said that Dave is "so cute" is a sexist person and he has the right to be offended.

http://sarahs-muse.livejournal.com/1250167.html

[nitro2k01]

By this logic this woman that said that Dave is "so cute" is a sexist person and he has the right to be offended.

http://sarahs-muse.livejournal.com/1250167.html

Things don't happen in a vacuum. If Dave was called cute so often that he'd be conditioned to always act cute as not to break the expectations of his surroundings, then yes, he would have a right to be offended. Finding a single instance of someone calling Dave cute proves exactly nothing.

[8086]

By this logic this woman that said that Dave is "so cute" is a sexist person and he has the right to be offended.

http://sarahs-muse.livejournal.com/1250167.html

Yes, it is sexist.

 

It's called a compliment.

[EEVblog]

It's called a compliment.

Bingo.
And if someone wants to comment on a female blogger "she's pretty", then that is also just a compliment. Nothing more, nothing less.
If that's the only thing a commenter says about either a male or female technical blogger as we are talking about, then the only thing they are guilty of is  making a pointless off-topic comment in the form of a compliment.
Anyone who makes anything more out of it is just being silly.

Now comes the essentially separate issue of how many times this happens. If a female (or male) technical blogger gets a huge number of such comments instead of the technical comments they are after, then I can understand how that would get quite demoralising.
But it's essentially no different then if I (or even the female blogger) got a majority of comments that said "I love your work bench", instead of the technical or other feedback they are after.
Of course, in reality one type of comment is more common than the theoretical (but I do get occasionally) type I just posted.
But is "sexism" the right work for it? I don't think so, unless the comments are abusive in some way. I think you'll find that any dictionary definition of sexism involves the terms abuse or discrimination, not "excessive compliments" (to paraphrase from Patch Adams)

[zapta]

It's called a compliment.

But this does not fit the oppressor/victim narrative.

[8086]

It's called a compliment.

But this does not fit the oppressor/victim narrative.

To some 'scholars' this is precisely the point, because Dave is a man he can only be an oppressor...

[zapta]

To some 'scholars' this is precisely the point, because Dave is a man he can only be an oppressor...

The sad part is that some fall for it. Around here the grievance industry is prospering.

[dannyf]

To some 'scholars' this is precisely the point

Bingo!

Those 'scholars' would be happy only if we are emotion-less and sex-less droids.

They need to be fixed first.

[zapta]

One of the things feminism tries to challenge is the idea that emotions make a person weak or unreliable. In other words, feminists feel that emotions are a good thing and that the macho "hide your emotions" stuff is nonsense.

You really are ignorant, aren't you? 

Mojo-chan, I am offended by your post.

[Ed.Kloonk]

This all started when we gave them the vote, you know.

[madshaman]

I actually took women's studies in university (just one first year course).  I think a large problem is that men are afraid to really study these things for the very reason of "machoness."  They pretend that there's no real useful applicable information there to be had, to themselves; and to their detriment.  I could say that, to a lesser degree, this applies to sociology in general.

Being a guy, I think it's important to be tough, to stand your ground, to "be a man."  When I say "be a man" what I'm really saying is: be a self respecting, self-confident individual who doesn't let fear compromise their true self; but because I'm a guy, and because I am who I am, I see that as "being a man" when applied to myself; the important thing is knowing who you are and being that person with full confidence.

"Macho" in the sense I think we're talking about is something almost opposite.  It reeks of insecurity because when a man is *acting* macho, they are abandoning their true persona in favour of a false persona which they believe will be more accepted.  It's that belief which indicates the insecurity because it's based on their assumption that a demeanour other than their own self will be accepted, but their own true self might be rejected.  It's obviously a ridiculous belief, but it requires courage to disprove, and self confidence, the very things that are lacking in the first place.

I think everyone including myself is like this to some degree, but I also think life's too short to spend too much of it being someone you're not; I'd imagine it's really exhausting too.

Back to the original point: how to encourage men not to be afraid to actually learn about feminism (and not run away in terror when confronted with concepts like separatist feminism).

This might help: I studied *psychology* in school, but in fact did not become a *psychologist* nor was ever labelled as such...

I formed my own informed opinions and I learned things which benefitted me (selfish man that I am).

I think the same applies to any other serious field of study.

[edit: typos etc.]

[zapta]

This all started when we gave them the vote, you know.

That's typical for the grievance industry, playing the guilt card to get special consideration. 

[dannyf]

This all started when we gave them the vote, you know.

I hope you didn't mean what I think you meant. If so, that would be wrong on so many levels.

Back to the original point: how to encourage men not to be afraid to actually learn about feminism (and not run away in terror when confronted with concepts like separatist feminism).

I would say the key is to understand that men and women are equal but different.

[zapta]

Back to the original point: how to encourage men not to be afraid to actually learn about feminism (and not run away in terror when confronted with concepts like separatist feminism).

We don't need to encourage anything. People are free. They can choose what courses to take or what profession to learn.  Live your life and let other live their. No need to engineer other people lives.

[Simon]

the problem these days is that you can't win either way, as soon as you recognise a difference your in trouble, as soon as you assume your the same your in trouble for not treating people individually.

I haven't forgotten hearing about women winging that they can't have a career and children, i mean lets get real, men are men and women are women, it does not prejudice as to what jobs they can do but as soon as you try to be non sexist and treat a woman like a man your in trouble for not recognizing her needs.

Instead of concentrating on the sexist or non sexist debate we just need to all shut the fuck up and treat everyone fairly, forget "feminism" because it's just creating another problem to solve a problem instead of solving the problem: mens attitudes, being militant feminists solves nothing and too many girls just spend too much time trying to compete and outdo boys which just wastes time and effort.

[zapta]

Live your life and let other live their.

If only you actually lived by that mantra...

Nobody is perfect but I am trying hard. That's why I value personal liberty.

[Simon]

accommodate family needs yes, but pander to women that whinge that they have a right to be a top company CEO AND raise children should be told to get lost and to read a biology book.

[miguelvp]

accommodate family needs yes, but pander to women that whinge that they have a right to be a top company CEO AND raise children should be told to get lost and to read a biology book.

Surely you must be joking!

Well I'm gald my company offers paternity leave, same term as maternity leave.

[Simon]

yes quite, paternity leave is a good idea, all I'm saying is we take some things too far or at least bother listening to extremist views of people that are just not rational. If we just work on the basis of what works and is fair there is no problem. I'm not going to give air time to a woman that wants to run a large company and get paid an arm and a leg but then moans she can't spend a year or move having a child. Sad fact, women have children, we can't help that, that is the way it is and menfolk should not be made to feel bad over it.

[westfw]

It's called a compliment.

And if you're trying to present useful technical information, and a majority of the comments you receive are compliments of your physical appearance it can get old really fast.  Not that people stop at compliments :-(

Try to find a Jerri Ellsworth or Lady Ada video on youtube where the comments don't include "propositions" of various sorts.  It's embarrassing...

Wow, Limor looks really pretty in this video It's something about attractive geeks that gets me going.

love the shows. Have a huge crush on ladyada. cant wait for your new shop. keep up the good work.

Lets get married Jeri - because I fell in love. LOL . Thee MOST interesting woman on earth.

I love you

[Simon]

yes sadly plenty of men never grow up and as soon they they start using the "lower brain" they start acting like real jerks, sadly so many men use the lower brain most of the time so generally merit the criticism and give the few decent blokes a bad name too.

[Simon]

well if they keep wihiging like they have been done a personal injustice what are we to assume. Oh men get paid more than me because I chose to have kids..... well darling I get pay rises and advance because i spend time on the job working rather than having kids, both have merit but I'd never dream of expecting to do both.

[Simon]

yes sadly plenty of men never grow up and as soon they they start using the "lower brain" they start acting like real jerks, sadly so many men use the lower brain most of the time so generally merit the criticism and give the few decent blokes a bad name too.

Oh, wait, so what you are saying is that there IS a problem and we do need to change things... Presumably you retract your earlier statement that there isn't a problem and we should all just shut up about it?

See your not seeing it. Firstly we need to cure the problem like i said, not generate a contrary one to complement it - it takes 2 to argue. I have met girls that spend their whole time trying to outdo men and put them down, that is not a constructive response particularly to a man that is not being sexist and i assume the excuse for this sexism towards men is feminism. My natural reaction could be to be sexist or at least rude and responding in kind (put women down) that immediately make me sexist while the sexist girl will pass it off as banter. It's self perpetrating in some cases. Like i said, if just trust all fairly and just be nice there will be no problems, but humans are nasty animals.

[miguelvp]

About CEOs, the boss of the boss of the boss of my boss is a she, and she does an awesome job and handles a vast chunk of a multi billion dollar company. Well not too vast, just about a couple of billion that she is responsible for.

And yeah, she makes the big bucks!

[Simon]

well if they keep wihiging like they have been done a personal injustice what are we to assume. Oh men get paid more than me because I chose to have kids..... well darling I get pay rises and advance because i spend time on the job working rather than having kids, both have merit but I'd never dream of expecting to do both.

That's exactly the problem. Simply spending more time doing something is a crap metric of performance and merit, and besides which career advancement is rarely based on merit anyway. What you are really saying is that even though we, as a society, need children and it is in our best interests to have them brought up well you think that because of biology they are someone else's problem and you can benefit by not contributing at all.

This kind of thinking is also what leads to people not wanting to hire women because they think they might get pregnant in the next few years. You have a womb, therefore you are inferior to a man because you might want maternity leave or to go home at 5 o'clock. The fact that you patronise them with the use of "darling" is a dead give-away too. It's pretty much the equivalent of calling a black man "boy".

You are totally putting words in my mouth. Granted pay and advancement are not always directly linked to time and effort spent at work (in my case it is) but if we want to discuss every single social issue then you go first mate! I have every interest in children being brought up properly because children are the future but you again put words in my mouth, if anything my opinion that women should be taken the required time to have children and not have a full blown career at the same time is because of that. My sister used to work at a nursery where children were behind in language skills, you know why ? because their parents worked, picked them up from the nursery after their busy day and work, took them home and dumped them in front of the TV with no further interaction......... their diet was equally crap. When it comes to child care I'm not fussed which parent does it (after a child no longer needs breastfeeding of course) but two full time parents and kids generally don't get you well brought up kids unles they have the money to pay for good home childcare but these days our society that is run by big business does not pay many people very well so both parents have to work, like i say we can discuss all of societies ills if you like!