Author Topic: Sharing some project planning phase: A (digital) ELECTRO-MECHANICAL Network  (Read 12412 times)

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Offline RJHayward

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One other thing, is that the direction separating is done after a bit of gear down, like divide by 18 or something, before the motor has to push on that bracket and little inter-gear.
 

Offline RJHayward

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Moving to gears, the only sane alternative, having stage after stage, each absorbing the motor's energy.
The TOY DOG gear box has interesting switch, but not offering full comutating function.
   One possible build has that (toy dog) style switch, for moving the toggle bracket only. Then, another copy rides on that movement. But an indent or click spring would need about the same, forces, for the simple use of the commutating path switch
But the rubber wheel versions, provided a much-needed design optíon for reset of 'A' segment, in a previous stage.
Photo shows, not too hard, to get gears to 'mesh', pushing the two together. Photo shows the toggle bracket went outside normal bounds, because gear box is opened.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   In this model view, symmetry of the 4 gear wheels makes for repetitive design. Looking diagonally, lower right, up towards upper left corner wheel, is how that path switch is acting.
(Sorry, my layout needs tweaks, for having those 2 blue colored gears touching.) That swing, of the toggle between gear wheel outputs, is approx 60 degrees, in 250 to 400 mSec.
  Labeled 'L' means 'Local' input.
The 'CH' is 'Chain Input', that will be 'A', 'B', or 'C'.
   This also shows, the Footprint, reader can imagine 3 of these flat 'wafer' style package.
Footprint, input or output, is 2 by 6.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   The view (previous) is simplified, but also first shown as the 3PDT Switch, that it is.  Next, is the particular details for this network, of series connected switch boxes.
   The layout, for the switch segments, (A, B, C),  is non-trivial, very confusing in a 3-D way. So I'm up to it, haha...
    For reference, consider the 3-layer switch as a '3 floor apartment':
   Say, you lived on 2nd floor, each floor has two apts.
" To RESET the relay switch, " you'd say, "...go upstairs, and down (to Apt 3b)."
" To SET, the switch, that's right next-door" (apt 2b).

   At any rate, a 3 layer switch assembly, is not that hard to assemble.  A simple pulse exchange, or opposing phases, gets the network access done, and proceeding at the next 'station', each two pulses, does that phase pair, each per station.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Do you think that these kind of mechanics were exemplified by the successful deployment of the James Webb Telescope? It had many single point failure points and I bet NASA also used some very creative mechanisms... the stuff used to deal with the sun shields is probobly interesting.. to anyone doing this kind of mechanism research, it may pay off to try to find details on the Webb telescope.

Well, it makes the thread even more interesting anyway.

Usually when you get the mechanical version of something complex, it ends up being more popular and interesting then the electrical version.

I find it interesting that this thread was brought about by an idea of relativity and I wonder if this mechanism might have applications as some kind of gravitational distortion correction mechanism in telescope parts (on the battlestar galactica of course), NASA got my creative juices flowing. Hope it gets to L2 good
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 04:34:44 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline RJHayward

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Haha: coppercone2, I was just thinking that, but a lot going on right now, concerning that little toggle switch.
   The idea / example is: Suppose you have a Mirror Adjuster system, of 24 boxes.
If you need, a little adjust, on # 21 and #22 mirror, plus some more extended adjust, the tension line on #17, here is how.
   By sending alternate pulses, (quarter second each), you work the way down from #1 to #17, then, you are free to adjust that output bobbin tension, that goes to one square 'tile'.  Now, suppose everything settles and your calibrator reads that you've gone too far. The connection is 'analog', base motor down to target, but you can get lots of play in the gears etc.
More like 'analog-ish'.
Heck, you can play that one line in or out until happy. Then, you can do the two pulses each, to get past 17, 18, 19, etc, and do the minor adjust at station #21.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   The thing about that toggle method, using the little inter-gear, is it has a 'CASCADE' function, when you start turning the input; The arm swings, into the bigger output gear, but then it still accepting more rotation. That new state is more resembling regular gear train, but you could conceivably use that output as 'Cascade Overflow' output.
   The little inter-gear pushes, one surface contact, on the gear tooth, of the big output gear, but then after transit is done the inter-gear pushes with the alternate surface! Yet, it is hard to visualize that.

   My dilemma, using that switch, don't know which is regular data for commutation, or positioning of the toggle itself!
 

Offline coppercone2

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I thought about this, is it possible to use momentum like a centrifugal gear thing, so if there is a rapid velocity increase there is like a spring loaded thing that pops out and makes it activate another mechanical system?

So you can yank it back and forth quickly to make something deploy, perhaps on a damper, so it stays activated by some amount of time. Like those games where there is a ball in a maze thing, and sometimes you need to shake it to make it jump over a obstacle or something. Different damper/spring combos could make it so different 'communication shakes' toggle different switches...  that would allow for pure rotational control if you can make the motor capable of excess speed on demand in a controllable way. I.e. turn crank forward 3 times then rapidly turn it back and forth 1/2 rotation. On a big mechanism presumably you can use your ears to detect a thunk that indicates correct operation. When its moving slowly the spring circuits would never get fired.

I think there is something like this in old cars (RPM detector) that extends arms on high speeds to engage other gears/switches.

And for all the toggle things its possible to put a big reset button connected to some weird actuator that disengages all the "dogs?"
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 05:49:10 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline RJHayward

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(Sorry, worm gear on output was misplaced, now using right-angle gear.)
   Main concerns now (and thanks coppercone2), mainly are with the forces generated by the path-switched gear being driven.  The reactive force can either cause 'more' engagement, or, the other direction of rotation can cause a disengagement force.
   So, let's say the original situation has 3 grams of 'drag' (see yellow colored big gear disk in photo), for when it's in free travel, then, when contact is made:
5 grams of reactive gear force, 'deeper' into the output gear being driven.
   In (my) theory, putting about a 5 gram spring 'detent' into the motion of the toggle piece will allow setting, by the positioner, but the use of the commutated path will avoid actually changing position (of the toggle) that is because the disengagement force (should be!) lower, as the original 3 grams of disk drag aren't involved. For that, the little center gear is driven directly.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   SUCCESS ! At least this problem.....
   This (photo) shows the 'Make After Break' style of mechanical digital switching.  The highlighted parts show the path, for incoming rotary signal, from previous box.
First a rotary TAP, taking output from the 'B' channel.
With a switch, that rotary signal travels thru to the 'A' channel positioner. Purpose is to shut down the left side, or 'A' channel, that needs to be put into transparent mode.
 

Offline RJHayward

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...so this photo shows the loop aspect, where, having position the 'A' switch, back to transparent mode, the output wheel / gear gets contacted and gears start acting to convey that 'overflow' signal.
That signal actually might not keep enough momentum as noted, the actual power source or rotation source has been switched away.
Purpose is to cut the accumulated resistance, in the network, by doing some tasks as 'one time only'.
 

Offline RJHayward

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Ha ha, the photo looking like a Wedding Cake !
   This stack of switches gets the two, 'B', and 'C', to move together, when SEL signal comes.  First layer, starting at bottom, is so-named local 'Motor', just a lable for that bigger gear. It is called 'Motor' as it is what moves the whole toggle, first by dragging the little inter-gear, literally, due to the heavy dollup, of green goo (an industry term, likely).
   Likely, this kind of moving toggle, in the toy, can't be used at very high speeds.  At 1100 rpm (18 rev per sec.) the toy had two gears to divide down to about 2 rev per sec. before applied to the special intra-gear path switch.
   First layer does position of toggle, (that whole, towering mess...) while the middle layer is 'C' channel.
At top, you can see the layer for doing the 'B' switch.

I've left out a lot, this diagram is probably too unrecognizably novel. Yeah, I get that, a lot, sometimes.   Up top of this; the 'A' segment has also a couple of layers. The 'A' switch channel is set together with 'B' and 'C' latching, but then will, actually be used later to reset 'B' and 'C' position.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   This photo shows the toggle-gate used with 3 switched signals. The 'B' channel commutator is highlighted in green; that's the 'B' output gear in the back there. That's a 25 tooth, while those little inter-gears have 10 teeth.
Ironically, the lower 'switch' has no outputs as that is the positioner 'motor' layer.  The 'A' channel is shown attached, in this generic switch view, but actually is independent, having its own large positioning gear, like the one seen at the bottom of this stack of switches
Readers may have difficult following the explanation, for how to clear the 'A' portion of the 3 switches.
   When the 'B' channel starts using it's chain output that indicates that it's time to clear the 'A' side, and preferably only once.
That way the whole switch, at that station, has gone to transparent mode; merely passing signals through to next station.
   Some problems also with gear ratios, which need to stay near 1 to (almost) less than, say, 1 to 1.1.
When doing 'motor' internal, at a particular station, it's OK then, to have gear down, as it's not a situation that the ratio keeps growing, outragesly.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   Photo shows, maybe hard to design, but to build is all standard stuff.  The solution, for three main problems, is each with two gears, perhaps just one in a case.
   Looking at 'green' output gear, that's tapped, with rotary action used to reset segment 'A', in the current box. See yellow gear; that's the gear to drive, (CW or clock-wise). That will put switch to 'transparent, pass-thru' mode.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   A really fun thing, about this diagram: that yellow gear to blue gear rotation doesn't happen until, maybe 300-400 mSec. AFTER the blue gear starts getting driven. Sort of an overflow - saturation indicator.
Using that, so-called 'Cascade Overflow' makes it safe to start (trying) to disconnect from the source of rotary action. Should, hopefully, disconnect (perhaps another 600 mSec. ).
The full switching on the 'A' segment there, gets the transparent mode in place.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Damn those gear towers are starting to look really complicated. I think your enclosure is stiff enough to handle it.. might need to move to something like anodized aluminum round stock shafts (might be a fair bit stiffer then dowels).

When I saw your drawings it made me wonder about gears on bent shafts (like on purpose, so the shaft might look like a sinusoid with gears at different angles with special tooth cuts).. wavy shaft drives.. I wonder if thats a thing. The closest I have seen to that is a crank shaft in a car, but its still only ground on one axis.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:25:09 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline RJHayward

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   The overall speed ratio is a big deal, spread down this line network. Considering 10 percent (speed reduction by gears), even 8 stages or stations starts to build up 'crazy' high reduction ratios.
So, I wanted each switch box to be exactly 1 to 1 ratio, but also; perhaps a bit of (gear down reduction) would give some increased mechanical advantage, going down a line of, say, 45 feet.
   Gears, for the signal switching, are more merely to move the signal over, rather than explicit gear-down
Ratio of 0.9 overall, is not correct in photo view, starts to be in ball-park close.
(Close to 1.0 or higher.)

   One idea is to have one switch box, at ratio for about 7 percent reduction, and then stringing 5 additional (serial) boxes that each are 1.0 gear ratio, in and out.
 

Offline RJHayward

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...coppercone2,  coppercone2, coppercone2...
I'm writing a folk song... Kinda catchy.

   If you roll this (see picture), along the flat ground, notice that the upper flex-shaft will be positioned, by whatever those cam-shaped rollers are causing, segment by segment.
  Of course, those 'cams' are ordinary plywood scraps.
Imagine, then, there could be a 'carrier', plus some modulation...of the final upper shape...

   There's various, mostly messy ways to show this.
Demonstration could show the idea, of a radio having 1 khz audio modulation, on top of a 1 MHz radio signal 'carrier'.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   To make a 'cam', the design involves plus or minus offset of the diameter, at whatever angle (from shaft mount hole).  At bottom, of picture, you can see 7 (plywood) segments, all laid out in accending phases.

   Many other thoughts, yeah, flex shaft isa happening thing...(I'm an aging hippy, so forgive the lingo, man)
 

Offline coppercone2

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Well, flat cams would be a really good reason to get a CNC router machine. I have a feeling that cams made out of aluminum on a CNC router table will be high quality.

One of my project ideas was to make a rotary 'profiler' that uses a dial indicator to map out the surface of a cam.. it seemed like a project that can be put together out of standard bushings and rods available on mcmaster. The real ones from mitutoyo are very expensive.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ACE-H10-Shaft-Concentricity-Measuring-Testing_60578631325.html

A primitive version of this that uses bushing adapters of various kinds to center any sized shaft. I think they have dial indicators with a ball on the bottom like a ball point pen, you could use one with a extra long shaft to make a cam profile.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275081634005?hash=item400c24a0d5:g:LSMAAOSwCRthyxWr

It is starting to look organic BTW, like a spinal column.


Also, irrelevant, but I did see this interesting technology on youtube where you can measure crank shaft bearing tolerances by using a special type of film. https://www.plastigaugeusa.com/how.html



I find it interesting how they found such a simple and cheap way to measure something that has insane tolerance requirements. Those round surfaces pose special challenges.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 10:44:48 pm by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline RJHayward

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   I'm thinking: 8 times rate, as a (radio transmitter) model, for doing modulation, at 8 X,  rather than more normal, 1000 X for the RF carrier frequency.  Like, for example, a 49 Mhz carrier is 100, 000  times a 500 Hz audio modulation.
   So the model has 64 plywood disks, that's 8 for making each (of 8) full sine waves.
That 'carrier' can be activated by twisting the shaft, considering that each individual cam creates a sinusoidal motion. The photo shows about half, of the 30 inch 'visitor's exhibit display'.
For the modulating, that's at a '5' amplitude, that's going up with (added to) the carrier motion, up and down being the interest. Carrier is at sine peak of '10' amplitude, so I think that's 50 % modulation. (?) Duh...
   I did the 'modulating', calculated by straight adding, to the bipolar some values. Perhaps that should, strictly, be a MULTIPLY,...I don't know. Don't do 'Te h Stuff's, ( haha).

   Coppercone2: sorry, I always taking the complex route, huh?...
   Keep the nice suggestions coming!
 

Offline MK14

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I hope you don't mind, an off the cuff, off-topic remark. But I wonder what would happen, if someone gave you a big, powerful, efficient high quality, modern 3D printer. Any computer equipment upgrades and/or training for 3D printer use, and 3D modeling/creation software. A very plentiful supply of (free, no cost for you) plastic filament, or UV setting materials, or whatever the 3D printer requires. Also, free/speedy access to a company, which will turn the 3D printed parts, into other materials, such as cast metal, where needed,

I wonder what the heck you would be able to invent/create/make with it. Perhaps a big mechanically brained, AI supercomputer Robot, like they use to have in old 1960s TV/movie shows ?

« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 02:44:21 am by MK14 »
 

Offline RJHayward

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   Actually, and thanks MK14, I think about such issues, sometimes, but I've had plenty opertunity plenty of resources, and luck ...
   A 'polymath', (lookit up: just means I'm good at YOGA). I can say that, anonymous, and mostly unsuccessful.  But... Van Gogh got a lot of that drama/no money gig.
   I like saying ' I'm an artist', but that trite phrase gets me nowhere.
   HAYWARD CITY LIBRARY has 3-D facilities, that's a  big, 4-story tall 'cube', very recently built.  That's on east bay land grant, btw.
Hayward is pop 200,000 + and about 30 minutes drive from San Francisco.

   I couldn't handle the details, of a good comprehensive 3-D printer package. But I did manage to complete a US PATENT application. Yes, AT THE LIBRARY!
   Pls see
    US 20030172205
 
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Offline MK14

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   Actually, and thanks MK14, I think about such issues, sometimes, but I've had plenty opertunity plenty of resources, and luck ...
   A 'polymath', (lookit up: just means I'm good at YOGA). I can say that, anonymous, and mostly unsuccessful.  But... Van Gogh got a lot of that drama/no money gig.
   I like saying ' I'm an artist', but that trite phrase gets me nowhere.
   HAYWARD CITY LIBRARY has 3-D facilities, that's a  big, 4-story tall 'cube', very recently built.  That's on east bay land grant, btw.
Hayward is pop 200,000 + and about 30 minutes drive from San Francisco.

   I couldn't handle the details, of a good comprehensive 3-D printer package. But I did manage to complete a US PATENT application. Yes, AT THE LIBRARY!
   Pls see
    US 20030172205

That looks like a very nice library, it seems very modern, and a nice building. It seems relaxing, spacious and rather interesting, in all, a nice place to visit.
That is a very big patent indeed, you must have put a tremendous amount of effort into it, over a number of years. 89 detailed diagrams, and a huge amount of text, which at a glance seems to be book worthy sized.
Yes, I agree. The realities of getting to terms with a 3D printer, and the new way of creating the 3D stuff on a computer. Would be a big change, to your work flow.
A bit like in the old days, whereby if you just needed to write a quick note, simply writing it on a post-it-note sized piece of paper was much quicker, easier and needed much less skill. Than learning to properly use a type-writer, with full high speed touch-typing abilities, and high rates of words per minute, typing skills, and high accuracy.
Similarly, to learn how to use the (now old) word-processors, from the 1980s and 1990s, with all their commands, and how to edit stuff and things. Would also need a fair amount of time to learn, to use it well. Although, if you can touch-type and/or type quickly, some of the old word-processors, are not that difficult to just sit on and use.
 

Offline RJHayward

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   Looking at a couple things, that wood box is R.I.P. but a couple ideas, to share there (before consigning to closet).

   But first, after consigning to (possible) mundane design hours, a couple truly wonderfully (functional) things did become clear:
(1)  The switch positioning has a 'saturation' effect, after encountering end-of-travel stops.  The switch toggle stops it's swing but the assembly still accepts rotation (input) without stalling.  Incredible !

(2)  The so-named output 'cascade', used on the 'motor' section of the path commutation switch, can be used as an indicator, of switch travel completion by engaging with output gears.

   Actually, a third unexpected break, in basic mechanical, is that the 'B' channel, being done and gone 'transparent', that the chain output was usefully, for clearing the 'A' side switch....
(whew...)
 


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