Should Dave move into a bigger lab?

[EEVblog]

As the title says, a lab move into bigger dedicated premises is being seriously considered at the moment.

I'm aware that some love the garage feel though.
So should I just deal with the space problem and SWMBO, and save the money?
Or move to a dedicated space that could potentially provide more opportunity and solve the SWMBO problem once and for all?

BTW, SWMBO votes YES!

Comments invited!

Thanks
Dave.

[NiHaoMike]

Is there really not enough room to expand in your existing house? Buying a new house just to get a bigger lab sounds like overkill.

[Lightages]

A bigger lab means bigger pressure to produce more videos, bigger productions, higher production values, and less time with your family.  Sounds insane to me. Make due with what you have or build another dedicated building on your property to accommodate the bigger ideas. Family comes first and adding the extra cost and stress to your life will have a big impact on your time with your family. You only get one chance with them, take them over anything else.

[Uncle Vernon]

Buying a new house just to get a bigger lab sounds like overkill.

It does?  Priorities man, priorities! life isn't about perpetually doing without.

[Kozmyk]

If you just move to a bigger lab you won't be able to jump up in the middle of the night with your crazy ideas.
Unless you keep the old lab as well.
Plus you'll be away from the house again, just like work.
How do you both feel about that?
If it were me I'd be looking for a big old place beyond the suburbs, an old farm or something.
But you have to be the type I guess.
Plenty of room to muck about though.

[IanB]

I'd say you need to have a workplace away from home that feels like a "day job" when you go there in the morning.

Also, having rent to pay on office space should give you extra incentive to seek out consulting gigs and other jobs to keep you afloat.

Once you decide to go it alone as a full time job and not just a hobby, I would say working out of a corner of your garage doesn't quite cut it.

Just my opinion though...only you know your finances.

[PeterG]

I voted yes due to SWMBO standing behind me..... However i am lucky enough to be allowed to have my lab INSIDE the house. A rare thing indeed.

Regards

[Kozmyk]

We only have an HWMBO in this house.
Though that often corrupts to HWWUBI (He Who Will Usually Be Ignored) 

[ciccio]

I voted NO based on my experience: I had an home lab (bigger than Dave's) in my basement, where I built prototypes, and a work lab at my company's premises.
When I bought my associates' quote of the company, becoming the full owner, I continued working in the basement for some time, while searching for another lab. I was obliged to search for a lab, because here you cannot have a professional lab in residential buildings.
I ended up working in TWO places, spending a lot of money for the external  lab and lowering my income (the lab cost me about 5000 euros per year).
Sometime I lose time searching for something in the old lab, and then finding it in the new one... or vice-versa.
If it's possible, I'll suggest that Dave finds the way for getting a bigger place in it's house, because I know that he will always try to work at odd hours of odd days.

Regard

[Bored@Work]

A compromise, renting storage space, not office/workshop space, is not possible with da missus? And then putting stuff just in storage, where it can age to perfection over the course of 20 years.

Anyhow, you have this consulting company, right? Renting some space in the name of that company could ramp up the operating cost of that company and that could be beneficial for your taxes, offsetting a little bit of the extra cost.

Renting space near some other workshops, where you could get some work like laser cutting or other mechanical work done, could save some time when doing projects. However, I don't consider a tattoo shop, auto repair shop or similar proper neighborhood, unless they are of the luxury variant. Being close to a well-equipped hackerspace might also be fun if they let you bring the camera when doing some work there.

Having enough space to keep some (recording and other) equipment set-up permanently is nice, too. And making it kind of a day job to go into your own company headquarter / research lab / recording studio / workshop / party zone / think tank / study to do some work can be beneficial to productivity.

Don't forget, when you move, we want to see a video of the move. Especially, we want to see that you drag dusty stuff out of dark corners. Then you tell us you totally forgot about this, what is is (or should become once finished), in which century you got it and if you should put it up on ebay eventually.

But isn't the discussion mood? SWiMBO said MOVE. That doesn't leave you with much options, does it? There is just one alternative to solve the problem ...

[EEVblog]

Is there really not enough room to expand in your existing house? Buying a new house just to get a bigger lab sounds like overkill.

We are not buy a new house, or moving.
SWMBO rules:
1) We are not moving, ever.
2) Cars must be parked in garage.
3) "Crap" must not be visible
4) Extensions to the house are next to impossible without ruining the place. a.k.a not really an option.

That means my options are:
1) Continue as is with 4sqm and cut back on the crap.
2) Sell my car and possibly gain some extra space in one half the garage, but that likely violates rule #3
3) Buy another space somewhere and move all the crap out to gain much desired extra space in the house.

SWMBO is salivating at the thought of #3

Dave.

[EEVblog]

A bigger lab means bigger pressure to produce more videos, bigger productions, higher production values

Says who?
It just means I'm a bit poorer and have extra room to do stuff.

and less time with your family.

Perhaps, but it would be 10mins walking distance away.
I can still edit videos at home if desired.

Sounds insane to me. Make due with what you have or build another dedicated building on your property to accommodate the bigger ideas.

Technically, it could be done, just, but at a big financial and stress cost, and ruining the look and usability of the property. i.e. Sagan has no grass to play on any more.
It would be around the same cost to extend on our property than it would to by 36sqm office space 10min walk away.

Family comes first and adding the extra cost and stress to your life will have a big impact on your time with your family. You only get one chance with them, take them over anything else.

I do.
But at the same time I have to potentially "make a go of it" and make an income. Otherwise it's back to a high pressure 9-5 job, and that would be the worst option for everyone.
The question remains, does having a bigger space give me more opportunity to make a go of it? Maybe, maybe not.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

If it's possible, I'll suggest that Dave finds the way for getting a bigger place in it's house, because I know that he will always try to work at odd hours of odd days.

The only way that's possible is if I sell my car and take over half of the (small) garage.
Possible, but I don't think it's worth the small-ish gain in space. I'd rather just make do with I have in that case I think.

Dave.

[Simon]

To be honest only you can answer this, can you afford it, will it benefit, will it then make life harder and have drawbacks on your current situation. Only you know the answers to all of that. If it helps you be more productive and grow your business, well what are you waiting for ?

[Uncle Vernon]

The question remains, does having a bigger space give me more opportunity to make a go of it? Maybe, maybe not.

Dave.

It's almost an essential. It says you are serious and won't be moving to Qld for the first semi-decent offer.
Walking distance is a big plus, you can still walk the streets of the hills at night with relative safety. Watch out for Hillsong Press Gangers though.

The important thing is it remains your space and under your control. No 9-5 is ever going to offer that. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

3) Buy another space somewhere and move all the crap out to gain much desired extra space in the house.

SWMBO is salivating at the thought of #3

Dave.

She will then start  moaning that you're never home...

BTW however big your lab is, you will always end up with the same amount of useable space = crap expands to fill the space available.

My first suggestion would  be to do a 'ruthless' clear-out - for each bit of crap, ask  yourself when you last used it, and if teh answer is > 1 year, consign it either to the loft, offline storage or ebay. And anything in offline storage that hasn't been used for another year, dispose of.

Can you dig a basement? This would appear to satisfy all the 'rules'....

Do any of your neighbours have rentable garage space?

 

[EEVblog]

To be honest only you can answer this, can you afford it, will it benefit, will it then make life harder and have drawbacks on your current situation. Only you know the answers to all of that. If it helps you be more productive and grow your business, well what are you waiting for ?

I won't know the answers unless I try it I guess!
I can always come back to the garage with my tail between my legs 

Dave.

[EEVblog]

She will then start  moaning that you're never home...

No doubt!

BTW however big your lab is, you will always end up with the same amount of useable space = crap expands to fill the space available.

Yeah, but more fun!

My first suggestion would  be to do a 'ruthless' clear-out - for each bit of crap, ask  yourself when you last used it, and if teh answer is > 1 year, consign it either to the loft, offline storage or ebay. And anything in offline storage that hasn't been used for another year, dispose of.

That goes against every fiber of my hoardish being
Some of the problem is gear that comes in and out. The big Tek MDO box for example currently sits in our lounge room.

Can you dig a basement? This would appear to satisfy all the 'rules'....
Do any of your neighbours have rentable garage space?

Nope, we are the only ones on the street who park our car in the garage. Garages are for "stuff".
Concrete slabs are a bitch 

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Walking distance is a big plus, you can still walk the streets of the hills at night with relative safety. Watch out for Hillsong Press Gangers though.

Those Justin Bieber hairstyle, stylish shoulder bag carrying Yankee accent teens are SCARY!

Dave.

[Uncle Vernon]

Garages are for "stuff".

No they are not!
That is just brutal oppression inflicted on mankind by womankind!
Garages are for cars and other fuel powered toys! This is why every man needs a shed for his man junk stuff. Get the right shed and there is room for more fuel powered toys too. If one can also do their work from such a shed/office/factory/cave then Nirvana cannot be too far away.

[ciccio]

An out-of-topic question:
I understand that SWMBO refers to Dave's wife, but please decipher it for all of us living the other side.

Best regard

[EEVblog]

I understand that SWMBO refers to Dave's wife, but please decipher it for all of us living the other side.

She Who Must Be Obeyed!

Dave.

[ciccio]

She Who Must Be Obeyed!

Dave.

I hope that my wife does not read the forum....

[mikeselectricstuff]

She will then start  moaning that you're never home...

No doubt!

But it may be a bargaining tool - if you can convince her that the choice is between more space at home and more time away...

My first suggestion would  be to do a 'ruthless' clear-out - for each bit of crap, ask  yourself when you last used it, and if teh answer is > 1 year, consign it either to the loft, offline storage or ebay. And anything in offline storage that hasn't been used for another year, dispose of.

That goes against every fiber of my hoardish being

I totally understand, having inherited my father's "might come in useful" gene, however once you actually get started, the appearance of more space can become at least as addictive - try it!

Can you dig a basement? This would appear to satisfy all the 'rules'....
Do any of your neighbours have rentable garage space?

Nope, we are the only ones on the street who park our car in the garage. Garages are for "stuff".

So why is the Mrs so insistant on being the odd one out in the street...?
 

Concrete slabs are a bitch 

Dave.

Diamond Saw

Here's another idea - trade the car for something low-profile like a De Lorean, and build storage space above it.

[Uncle Vernon]

SWMBO was made popular in Rumpole of the Bailey  a British television series created and written by the British writer and barrister John Mortimer, QC which starred Leo McKern (a great Aussie Actor) as Horace Rumpole, an ageing London barrister who defends any and all clients. It has been spun off into a series of short stories, novels, and radio programmes.
He secretly calls his wife Hilda "She Who Must Be Obeyed" (SWMBO), a reference to the novel She by H. Rider Haggard.

The story is a first-person narrative that follows the journey of Horace Holly and his ward Leo Vincey to a lost kingdom in the African interior. There, they encounter a primitive race of natives and a mysterious white queen, Ayesha, who reigns as the all-powerful "She", or "She-who-must-be-obeyed".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpole_of_the_Bailey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She:_A_History_of_Adventure

[mikeselectricstuff]

SWMBO was made popular in Rumpole of the Bailey  a British television series created and written by the British writer and barrister John Mortimer, QC which starred Leo McKern (a great Aussie Actor) as Horace Rumpole, an ageing London barrister who defends any and all clients. It has been spun off into a series of short stories, novels, and radio programmes.
He secretly calls his wife Hilda "She Who Must Be Obeyed" (SWMBO), a reference to the novel She by H. Rider Haggard.

The story is a first-person narrative that follows the journey of Horace Holly and his ward Leo Vincey to a lost kingdom in the African interior. There, they encounter a primitive race of natives and a mysterious white queen, Ayesha, who reigns as the all-powerful "She", or "She-who-must-be-obeyed".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpole_of_the_Bailey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She:_A_History_of_Adventure

cf. " 'Er Indoors" (from the UK Tv series Minder)

[Computeruser]

PeterG wrote: However i am lucky enough to be allowed to have my lab INSIDE the house  <-- As am I. I staked out the workshop when we purchased some decades back. But now I have expanded to build a model railroad. My grandaughter likes it and my grandson certainly will when he gets a bit older.

Dave wrote: Continue as is with 4sqm and cut back on the crap  <--- Pretty hard. Really not enough room to turn around (as you have noted in one or two of your blogs).

Dave wrote:  we are the only ones on the street who park our car in the garage   <-- I keep my cars in the garage as well.

ciccio wrote: I hope that my wife does not read the forum....  <--- She only has to watch some British television.

... C

[Uncle Vernon]

cf. " 'Er Indoors" (from the UK Tv series Minder)

Best enjoyed with a bottle of Chateau Thames Embankment and a small cigar

[EEVblog]

Dave wrote: Continue as is with 4sqm and cut back on the crap  <--- Pretty hard. Really not enough room to turn around (as you have noted in one or two of your blogs).

Yep, even if I had nothing, a few projects and a few big review or ebay items is enough to tip the scales from zero to "too much crap".
In addition to the lab, I only have the space you see in the cupboard in the study, and a bit of space on the study desk.
Before that new bench went in the other week, kits were usually packed on the living room or study floor!

Dave.

[FreeThinker]

I think the real question is can you afford not too? Working 'outside' the home will be more productive as there will be less distractions and you will have the the psychological advantage of leaving home to go to 'work' and returning home at the end of the day. Just leave the Internet at home and you will double productivity  .

[mikeselectricstuff]

I think the real question is can you afford not too? Working 'outside' the home will be more productive as there will be less distractions and you will have the the psychological advantage of leaving home to go to 'work' and returning home at the end of the day. Just leave the Internet at home and you will double productivity  .

I'm not totally convinced by that argument - gains may be offset by travel time and lack of ability to nip out for a quick hack. You can't really leave the net behind as you still need datasheets, Farnell, email etc..
Also there may be SWMBO issues, in that being within 'shout range' is probably considered to be less 'away' than in being another building and hence may allow more workshop time...

[Lightages]

Well I did not understand that there was so much stuff all around the house. I thought you had managed to confine your "crap" to the workshop and editing area in your study. In that case I take back my "advice" and say that if you can afford it and the extra cost doesn't make you push yourself to stay at the offsite area more than yo should to try and make the money to offset the cost, yes it seems like a good idea.

I just know how fleeting this time in your life with your child(ren) will be and how it is the most important you have. No one ever said to themselves on the their deathbed "I wish I spent more time working and less time with my children".

[FreeThinker]

I think the real question is can you afford not too? Working 'outside' the home will be more productive as there will be less distractions and you will have the the psychological advantage of leaving home to go to 'work' and returning home at the end of the day. Just leave the Internet at home and you will double productivity  .

I'm not totally convinced by that argument - gains may be offset by travel time and lack of ability to nip out for a quick hack. You can't really leave the net behind as you still need datasheets, Farnell, email etc..
Also there may be SWMBO issues, in that being within 'shout range' is probably considered to be less 'away' than in being another building and hence may allow more workshop time...

Your argument  is in reality re enforcing my position, You can't be so easily buttonholed for a none related task and at the end of the day you are separated from your workplace and less likely to neglect your homely duties. Working for the man can be demanding, working for yourself can be SELF destructing, trying to keep home and work apart can be a deal breaker. As for data sheets etc, well ok your mobile phone can do most of that without too much intrusion but in reality will probably still be quite intrusive.

[Fraser]

In the UK there appears to be growth in the 'Garden Office' industry. People are working from home in an area allocated as 'the office' so that there is segregation from family life for the purposes of concentration and efficiency, yet they are only a matter of metres away from the family for that quality time that we all need. The 'working from home' supporters claim great savings in commuting time and cost ,as many people only need an internet connection to the office in order to carry out tasking. If you have the space and funds, you could do worse than a purpose built lab in your garden and, unlike rented accommodation, you always own it and can reassign it's use as you like, whenever you like.   

[Computeruser]

>>> working for yourself can be SELF destructing, trying to keep home and work apart can be a deal breaker

I am curious. Are you an independent business person? I am, and have been for a decade. I have my own corporation and work with numerous clients (some as long as I have been in my own business). I don't find it to be self destructing at all. My own children are grown and gone, but we do have grandchildren running around sometimes. ... C

[Kozmyk]

Those "tidy the place up " type comments are clearly coming from that "other" type of bloke.
There is an untraversable divide between the "hoarders" and the "chuckers" of this world.
A "hoarder" will ever be thus.
Sure he can contemplate the wonders of uncluttered space, even be envious of it, but to actually realise it for more than a fleeting moment is simply beyond their/our psychological make-up. 

[Keith]

If your budget permits and you have the property, perhaps a garage expansion project? Can you trade off on parking the car on the street? IMO - you need more space but I would completely exhaust all ideas on expanding the existing location if that's possible.

[Lawsen]

Only Dave Jones can answer that question for a larger electronics work space.  I viewed the video of your electronics work space.  Mines is smaller that I am not a dedicated engineer, but geologist with some electronics background and an on call HP giant Eagle jet plotter service job in a city far away from here.  My place is already crowded with antique microscopes, mineral samples, old computers, and three to four oscilloscopes, one function generator, and tub of multimeters, analog and digital.  There was a post for people to post a picture of their electronics work space.  It was totally fun and fascinating to view.  I cannot afford to own my house, so the possibility of that would not be for me.  Dave Jones mentioned the computer is away from the electronics work area, because it creates a distraction.  The electronics work space seems adequate on the video.  The picture with the spacious electronics work space must be from his place of employment.  I have my four oscilloscopes and function generator on top of a tool cart and Anthro furniture cart with two mineral viewing microscopes.  I would not recommend Dave Jones to get a larger space, unless he has the means to do so without going into debts.  This EEVBLOG is not a substantial business.  I do not know the size of the EEVBLOG.  EEVBLOG might even be a brand name for electronics products available at the store like HP once was.  This is not an easy question for a blogger engineer who reviews an increasing tools and instruments being reviewed or commentary.  A slightly larger space with shelves to store instruments and tools being reviewed and better lighting for the camera.  Many oscilloscopes these days are not stack able like before.  The table top seems large enough.  My answer to the question is no.  Dave Jones needs to make more efficient wooden shelves to increase maximum use of the space.  It is not much space as I viewed his videos before.  We could all use a little more space and more work, too.  The world and situation are often short of this.

[FenderBender]

Don't you like the feeling of being at home?

[Computeruser]

As I noted above, I work for myself. I have one end of my kitchen that is a home office. I can turn around and use the kitchen table occasionally when I need spread out space. So I can work at home (I am in business, not electronics). However, I really like getting out to clients as well. So I play both ends of that street.

Dave Jones - Lawsen made a note about your business. I don't even know it, but I know I need to bill hours of service out to earn money. Perhaps there is room for consulting on your part that would augment EEVblog and still not mean a full time job. I cannot tell, but working for myself has been the best part of my working life. ... C

[EEVblog]

In the UK there appears to be growth in the 'Garden Office' industry. People are working from home in an area allocated as 'the office' so that there is segregation from family life for the purposes of concentration and efficiency, yet they are only a matter of metres away from the family for that quality time that we all need. The 'working from home' supporters claim great savings in commuting time and cost ,as many people only need an internet connection to the office in order to carry out tasking. If you have the space and funds, you could do worse than a purpose built lab in your garden and, unlike rented accommodation, you always own it and can reassign it's use as you like, whenever you like.

As I've said, that it not an option. I can't simply stick up a shed in the back yard. Our backyard does lot lend itself to that.
Trust me, if I could, I would.
I've tried to argue that with SWMBO for 8 years, it ain't going to happen 

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Those "tidy the place up " type comments are clearly coming from that "other" type of bloke.
There is an untraversable divide between the "hoarders" and the "chuckers" of this world.
A "hoarder" will ever be thus.
Sure he can contemplate the wonders of uncluttered space, even be envious of it, but to actually realise it for more than a fleeting moment is simply beyond their/our psychological make-up. 

Spot on.
I do enjoy the excitement and possibilities of a clean desk/bench, but at the end of the day, that's as long as it lasts 

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Dave Jones - Lawsen made a note about your business. I don't even know it, but I know I need to bill hours of service out to earn money. Perhaps there is room for consulting on your part that would augment EEVblog and still not mean a full time job. I cannot tell, but working for myself has been the best part of my working life. ... C

Yes, I am currently doing some consulting work, as I have done on and off for 20+ years.
But ultimately I'd rather be doing my own thing...

Dave.

[Computeruser]

>>> ultimately I'd rather be doing my own thing... 

I find consulting (the services I provide) as doing my own thing. True - I have to do what the client wants, but that doesn't bother me at all. ... C

[MrPlacid]

Dave, if you are even considering renting a space. Then you will inevitably rent a space. What you are doing now is just postponing it (in other words procrastinating). You will sooner or later, vent this out. It's the same as those newbies asking if they should get an oscilloscope, sooner or later they'll get it. But in the mean time, they just bother themselves with this decision. Once they get it, life moves on.

Whether getting a new space is a good idea, you'll never know till you try it. Failure is our greatest teacher. Who knows, you might even question yourself why you didn't do it sooner.

[Zad]

I think the space you currently have is okay for part-time stuff, the occasional video, some storage etc but, given the nature of your work, I think the time will always come when you need bigger work premises. As moving house is unrealistic, then that means obtaining separate premises is inevitable. The recent happy arrival in the family is going to generate space needs of his own, his toys will need more storage space than yours, and he will have mum on his side.

That brings me to the advantage of working at home: Seeing the Sprog grow up. Thinking about it though, having separate work premises does not mean you have to be there all day, every day. Phone calls are easy to divert, and unless you are using it as some sort of shop (unlikely) then the only callers will tend to be postal / parcels delivery, which can be signed for by front desk staff (if that facility is available).

It feels that electronics is increasingly a desk job, whether it be CAD, research, reading data sheets and app notes, or performing general admin. There is no reason why that cannot be done at home (to spend some time with Junior) or away (to get some peace and quiet). That just leaves the physical aspect of electronics, which might boil down to only 1 or 2 days a week on average.

That only really leaves the financial aspect. I always feel it is more professional to meet prospective clients in a work environment rather than home. In my experience, the perception is that if you are at home then you "must" have lower overheads and can charge less. If work improves, it leaves the possibility of perhaps working alongside a business partner, or sharing costs with a similar small business in the same office. Depending on the lease, if work didn't go quite so well then you could probably walk away after 6 months. I know SWMBO wouldn't be happy about taking over the rest of the garage and leaving the Davemobile outside, but I'm afraid if that's what it takes to pay the bills, then that's that.

Which is my long-winded way of saying you don't have much to lose by at least investigating the market. Go for it!

[kaptain_zero]

Based on what you have said so far, move the shop out....... and enjoy the peace and quiet!

Regards

Kaptain "Wish it were possible in my case" Zero

[gregariz]

I'm a little in the same boat at the moment.

For the last year I have been contemplating either 1. A new house or 2. getting an industrial space somewhere. My present space is a 3 x 3.5m den that I have a 1.8 x 0.9m workstation with 2 levels of instrument landings above it, a small bookcase, 4 off 1.2 meter wide parts racks, a small table for paste dispenser (use a bottle - no compressor space) and griddle, a small hutch for some radio gear and not much room for anything else.

Things I do to at least try to maintain some workspace are to throw any cardboard boxes away straight away when they arrive. Even so I don't have room for a computer that I have sitting in front of one of the racks and a pace fume extractor that I have sitting in front of another set of racks with a pair of flexible tubes meandering about the place to the bench that are lethal for the untrained eye. I need another workstation but can't fit it. A cable rack would be my dream.

I kind of like the setup I see in Mikes (mikeselectricstuff's) video on the PCB wall.... not sure if thats under his place or if thats remote from his place. Things that concern me as a full time engineer who is not ready to give up his day job are that I do most of my work in the late evening or whenever I can find some time. This usually means ducking out when the wife or young fella (I have one about the same age as Dave) is asleep. I'm worried that buying or renting an office space away from home is going to put an end to those late night "I have and idea" moments.

A little bit like Dave is that I am not wanting to really do consulting to someone else, which would probably suck my time. I'd rather be an OEM however the problem with that it seems to me is that you are on a world market with higher levels of competition so to be really successful you either need to get 'lucky' with a cool gadget ie. or have something cutting edge which IMO usually involves some heavy research background (although I understand people will violently disagree there) that will attract investment by government grant or the investment community. Consulting seems to me to be somewhat based on a more localized market that requires your presence from time to time. This has the advantage you are not competing on a larger stage but has the negatives about other peoples work/whimsies that I get the impression Dave is keen to avoid. Mike seems to have a somewhat localized business based on artistic power/control/lighting equipment that seems somewhat unique but no doubt requires feet on the ground so avoiding competition with every man and his dog.

Sorry Dave.. I don't really have an answer for you because I don't have one for myself. If you can keep your electronics to within the 9-5 day without ducking out to try something during the evening it seems to me that a lab outside may be fine.

[PeterG]

I think Dave will/should keep his current work area, just for those moments of midnight genius and related "Crap". However he should also rent out some space for his work related "Crap". This allows growth for the blog and income while complying with SWMBO rules and regs. However, experience tells me that SWMBO Rules are 'subject to change without notice' in most cases.

Regards

[DavidDLC]

Yes he will need to spend more time out of home if he moves to another place, which may break another rule !

[mikeselectricstuff]

I kind of like the setup I see in Mikes (mikeselectricstuff's) video on the PCB wall.... not sure if thats under his place or if thats remote from his place.

It's a conversion of a large garage at the bottom of the garden, which I subsequently extended.
The garage was the reason  bought the house - I knew roughly how much space I needed, and a house with that amount of space in a room  would have been very expensive.
BTW Dave if you do go for a seperate workplace, don't underestimate the logistics of being in the right place to take deliveries if the space doesn't have front-desk staff.

[EEVblog]

BTW Dave if you do go for a seperate workplace, don't underestimate the logistics of being in the right place to take deliveries if the space doesn't have front-desk staff.

I know, deliveries are a BIG DEAL!
I've always been spoiled with work with its always manned front desk reception or receiving dock etc.
I have a PO box, but that's no good for couriers, only regular post, and everyone seems to be using mostly lower cost couriers these days.
It's ok at the moment, because at least one of us is almost always home, haven't had a single dreaded "We Missed You" card yet.
But that is likely to change with a new place (I don't think the one I'm considering has that facility. So I'd probably keep getting deliveries at home.

Dave.

[FreeThinker]

>>> working for yourself can be SELF destructing, trying to keep home and work apart can be a deal breaker

I am curious. Are you an independent business person? I am, and have been for a decade. I have my own corporation and work with numerous clients (some as long as I have been in my own business). I don't find it to be self destructing at all. My own children are grown and gone, but we do have grandchildren running around sometimes. ... C

No I've always worked for the man, but I have first hand experience of the pressures people put themselves under running a one man band. Its not just doing the work but the paperwork and organisation behind it. This can turn your 8hr day into 18hrs very quickly and if you are not careful consume you! I would imagine that Electronics would be the sort of job where this would be a real danger as engineers tend to leave things till the last minute as part of their nature (strange but true). Trying to limit distractions and making a more formal working environment MAY limit the pressure to some extent by increasing productivity but the bottom line is bills have to be paid and food put on the table and if this means burning the midnight oil well......! If You are generating enough revenue things are great but once things slide you have to pedal faster or go under. Remember you can only do ONE thing at a time. You are either working on a project or finding a new one and you need the time and money to achieve this. There is no security blanket (pay check) in this game.

[EEVblog]

It feels that electronics is increasingly a desk job, whether it be CAD, research, reading data sheets and app notes, or performing general admin. There is no reason why that cannot be done at home (to spend some time with Junior) or away (to get some peace and quiet). That just leaves the physical aspect of electronics, which might boil down to only 1 or 2 days a week on average.

Yeah, it would be something like that. Most of my "ideas in the middle of the night" as people have suggested are not hardware that I have to try then and there (not that I usually could anyway), it's mostly DaveCAD, datasheets, and googling.

The plan would be to shoot all the blogs at the new lab, probably with video editing at home. Problem with video editing at home is that I can't just jump back outside to double check something, or possibly shoot another scene that I forgot or just thought of. I'd have to walk 10min down the road, or wait until tomorrow when I "went in".

It would be awesome to have separate benches for general work (e.g. soldering/testing/blog background), teardowns (and photography), current projects in progress, PC bench for PC related projects/micros, and one for packing/opening boxes etc. And permanent studio lights etc
So there's 5 separate benches right there just to keep all the things tidy and separate that I currently juggle.

But one bench would remain in the current lab for whatever. Plus the basic like a scope and meter in the study.

Dave.

[FreeThinker]

But that is likely to change with a new place (I don't think the one I'm considering has that facility. So I'd probably keep getting deliveries at home.

Dave.

Check with the courier, they will sometimes offer a phone ahead service. They will contact you sometime prior to delivery to confirm you are home.

[Mechatrommer]

assuming "EEVBLOG LAB" possibility for professional career like consultation and dealing with clients, i suggest get another (separate) dedicated space (rented or bought). mixing family and career is not a good idea imho, but close distance to house will help, to cope with both, emergency etc, but....

if assuming "EEVBLOG LAB" is for dave's personal hobby, getting separate space from home is the thing i try to avoid (even if its only few steps away with open space in between), since someone said for my hobby i'll do it at odd times and odd days, if i have to separate my hobby and my family, then i leave "time allocation" for them = none! i 99% will be in my lab when i got home from work. so i have to deal with swmbo shouting, kids running about etc. i cannot separate those dedication and commitment. ie family vs hobby.

and i really dont like when i wake up at 3am with a brillliant idea retrieved from my dream, have to walk out home the dark path, have open and close, lock and unlock the doors and so forth, worst if i already on another side, and then getting a call to go back home to make some milk for my newborn.

since i've work in building industry for only few months about few years ago as someone who "inspect only", that may lend me the credibility to help you dave with my "not so professional" home improvement service if you are willing to give details of your current home and garden plan.

my vote... if its for professional career, get another space. if not, then just extend your house. thats it.

[EEVblog]

No I've always worked for the man, but I have first hand experience of the pressures people put themselves under running a one man band. Its not just doing the work but the paperwork and organisation behind it. This can turn your 8hr day into 18hrs very quickly and if you are not careful consume you!

It does, and I do not know of a single other consultant / one-man-band in the electronics industry with their own company where this is not the case.
I learned this many decades ago, and is the reason why I have only done very small and manageable consulting jobs on the side for a long time now. (e.g. my current consulting gig is "research this and write a document", or "lay out this board" - small and manageable stuff you can be pretty sure is not going to balloon out into some murphy's debugging nightmare.
Some say that it's so fantastic being your own boss and earning "unlimited" money in a consulting business etc, but it does consume your life. If that's what you like doing, then great, but it's not for everyone, including me!
That's why I been content with 9-5 for a long time now because I can go home and forget about everything, not my problem. I have my weekends, I have my holidays, I would have even taken a pay cut and worked less days if I could have.
And I always, as a rule, turn down flat big "turn key" jobs etc because they almost always balloon out and control your life.
"Working hard" is highly overrated IMO!

I would imagine that Electronics would be the sort of job where this would be a real danger as engineers tend to leave things till the last minute as part of their nature (strange but true). Trying to limit distractions and making a more formal working environment MAY limit the pressure to some extent by increasing productivity but the bottom line is bills have to be paid and food put on the table and if this means burning the midnight oil well......!

That's what I love about the blog, there is almost never a requirement to get something done by a certain time, and I can change my mind at any time and work on that idea instead of what I was going to do.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

assuming "EEVBLOG LAB" possibility for professional career like consultation and dealing with clients, i suggest get another (separate) dedicated space (rented or bought). mixing family and career is not a good idea imho, but close distance to house will help, to cope with both, emergency etc, but....

If I ever meet with clients, it's always at their place.

if assuming "EEVBLOG LAB" is for dave's personal hobby, getting separate space from home is the thing i try to avoid (even if its only few steps away with open space in between), since someone said for my hobby i'll do it at odd times and odd days, if i have to separate my hobby and my family, then i leave "time allocation" for them = none! i 99% will be in my lab when i got home from work. so i have to deal with swmbo shouting, kids running about etc. i cannot separate those dedication and commitment. ie family vs hobby.

and i really dont like when i wake up at 3am with a brillliant idea retrieved from my dream, have to walk out home the dark path, have open and close, lock and unlock the doors and so forth, worst if i already on another side, and then getting a call to go back home to make some milk for my newborn.

my vote... if its for professional career, get another space. if not, then just extend your house. thats it.

This isn't for my consulting gig, it's for the blog. Make no mistake, the blog is now my full time business, it pays the bills.
I'm now one of the few people in Australia earning a full time living from a being a video blogger

As I've said, extending the house is not an option, for many reasons.

Dave.

[mikeselectricstuff]

But that is likely to change with a new place (I don't think the one I'm considering has that facility. So I'd probably keep getting deliveries at home.

Dave.

Check with the courier, they will sometimes offer a phone ahead service. They will contact you sometime prior to delivery to confirm you are home.

The problem is you don't always know which courier a supplier is going to use and/or when stuff is going to be shipped. You get used to the people you buy from regularly, and 'train' their regular delivery people to leave with neigbours etc. but it's the 10% of others that can cause 90% of the problem...  I just had to do a 2hr round-trip to pick up a parcel from an occasional supplier who recently changed their courier,as I didn't know when i was next going to  be in all day...

[Uncle Vernon]

BTW Dave if you do go for a separate workplace, don't underestimate the logistics of being in the right place to take deliveries if the space doesn't have front-desk staff.

I know, deliveries are a BIG DEAL!
I've always been spoiled with work with its always manned front desk reception or receiving dock etc.
I have a PO box, but that's no good for couriers, only regular post, and everyone seems to be using mostly lower cost couriers these days.
It's OK at the moment, because at least one of us is almost always home, haven't had a single dreaded "We Missed You" card yet.
But that is likely to change with a new place (I don't think the one I'm considering has that facility. So I'd probably keep getting deliveries at home.

Dave.

This is a topic on it's own, and one very real PITA which as yet I have not found a solution for. In Dave's case it sounds like the proposed premises are part of some kind of complex, so befriending a neighboring business could be the answer to courier hell.

For those working from home or isolated premises deliveries remain a major area of stress. A few years ago there was a scheme dreamed up where BP service station were to be used as collection points, but no trace can be found of this today.

But that is likely to change with a new place (I don't think the one I'm considering has that facility. So I'd probably keep getting deliveries at home.

Dave.

Check with the courier, they will sometimes offer a phone ahead service. They will contact you sometime prior to delivery to confirm you are home.

I've tried that with couriers in Sydney and its never worked out. The phone ahead never being accurate so you end up delaying journeys and waiting about needlessly anyway. Pickups (from TNT anyway) are perfect, I can be sure down to the nearest hour, and for under $20 I can get around 2Kg to any reasonably sized population centre overnight.

Deliveries on the other hand are a logistics nightmare, unless you have a manned during business hours collection point with 24hr access. You cannot always use your own courier, and with stuff coming from all corners of the planet it becomes logistic nightmare for the one man band. In my case I have to juggle between Sydney and Rural NSW which adds another tier to the degree of difficulty.

There has to be a business opportunity out there for someone able to offer a collection service to small business, contractors and working professionals. Workable suggestions gladly considered.

[IanB]

There has to be a business opportunity out there for someone able to offer a collection service to small business, contractors and working professionals. Workable suggestions gladly considered.

There is indeed a solution out there, it is called a virtual office rental. You rent space in a shared facility where the facility management provides the admin and reception services on your behalf. They answer the phone with your company name and they sign for your deliveries during office hours. They provide meeting space to entertain clients as needed and in fact they provide all the facilities of a company office. All you have to do is pay for it...

[Uncle Vernon]

There has to be a business opportunity out there for someone able to offer a collection service to small business, contractors and working professionals. Workable suggestions gladly considered.

There is indeed a solution out there, it is called a virtual office rental.

They call them Serviced Offices in the local vernacular. They work well for those who primarily require office space. Sadly when you need workshop and factory space as well the serviced options are few and far between.

[IanB]

They call them Serviced Offices in the local vernacular. They work well for those who primarily require office space. Sadly when you need workshop and factory space as well the serviced options are few and far between.

Right. I thought you were mainly talking about taking deliveries. You can rent a virtual office with an address and telephone number without necessarily taking any physical space. You just drop by occasionally to pick up the mail and collect any messages.

[Uncle Vernon]

They call them Serviced Offices in the local vernacular. They work well for those who primarily require office space. Sadly when you need workshop and factory space as well the serviced options are few and far between.

Right. I though you were mainly talking about taking deliveries. You can rent a virtual office with an address and telephone number without necessarily taking any physical space. You just drop by occasionally to pick up the mail and collect any messages.

I am! The virtual office think should work, but thus far I've never found anything that offers sufficient flexibility. The fuel station collection point idea sounded promising but I guess the logistics their end meant it never grew legs. Given many of the courier company depots operate around the clock, an option for 24hr pickup from depot would suit many customers but noneappear keen to offer this kind of option. At least outside of Sydney I have more chance of such an option.

[lowimpedance]

Dave
 I know you have said NO extensions etc and an external space option its pretty much looking like the way to go. But what about turning the roof space into an attic, properly lined etc and store all the extra "crap" up there to free up space around the garage.
 I know your pain with "there is too much useless junk here, and garages are for cars! " argument . Its amazing how many little nooks one can find if motivated. .
I guess a car port would ruin the look?. and be violate the WAF..
Good luck.
 Cheers
John

[DrGeoff]

BTW, SWMBO votes YES!

Thanks
Dave.

SWMBO doesn't like the bench over the car bonnet I bet.
With components getting smaller, you should be getting a smaller lab, not a bigger one!

[DrGeoff]

If it's possible, I'll suggest that Dave finds the way for getting a bigger place in it's house, because I know that he will always try to work at odd hours of odd days.

The only way that's possible is if I sell my car and take over half of the (small) garage.
Possible, but I don't think it's worth the small-ish gain in space. I'd rather just make do with I have in that case I think.

Dave.

Buy a van and put half the lab in the van. Back into the garage and open the van doors and away you go! Double the size!

How about a caravan in the back yard

[DrGeoff]

We are not buy a new house, or moving.
SWMBO rules:
1) We are not moving, ever.
2) Cars must be parked in garage.
3) "Crap" must not be visible
4) Extensions to the house are next to impossible without ruining the place. a.k.a not really an option.

Ignore the rules. Design a new house, knock down the old one and rebuild.
Worked for me

[Jon Chandler]

Regarding deliveries.... since the new space and home are close together and may be served by the same driver, it might be possible to have the driver deliver to home if you're not in the office.  UPS used to do this for me.

[EEVblog]

Dave
 I know you have said NO extensions etc and an external space option its pretty much looking like the way to go. But what about turning the roof space into an attic, properly lined etc and store all the extra "crap" up there to free up space around the garage.
 I know your pain with "there is too much useless junk here, and garages are for cars! " argument . Its amazing how many little nooks one can find if motivated. .
I guess a car port would ruin the look?. and be violate the WAF..
Good luck.
 Cheers
John

I already store stuff in the crawl space in the roof, it's not a pleasant or convenient place though.
But as mentioned, the general issue of bench space and general room still remains.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Buy a van and put half the lab in the van. Back into the garage and open the van doors and away you go! Double the size!

How about a caravan in the back yard

Out of the box thinking, I love it!

Dave.

[Uncle Vernon]

Buy a van and put half the lab in the van. Back into the garage and open the van doors and away you go! Double the size!

How about a caravan in the back yard

Out of the box thinking, I love it!

Dave.

Then again!!!

[EEVblog]

Then again!!!

Don't let practicalities get in the way of a good idea!
I could drive the DaveMobile around, with a Blue's Bothers type megaphone on the top - ranting!



Dave.

[Mechatrommer]

This isn't for my consulting gig, it's for the blog. Make no mistake, the blog is now my full time business, it pays the bills.

so its for your "proffesion". my previous statements still remain. along with your statement of "extension is out of question" and your swmbo's vote... so i voted yes, since i cant see any chance of extension within proximity of your dwelling.

[mikeselectricstuff]

But that is likely to change with a new place (I don't think the one I'm considering has that facility. So I'd probably keep getting deliveries at home.

Dave.

Check with the courier, they will sometimes offer a phone ahead service. They will contact you sometime prior to delivery to confirm you are home.

The problem is you don't always know which courier a supplier is going to use and/or when stuff is going to be shipped. You get used to the people you buy from regularly, and 'train' their regular delivery people to leave with neigbours etc. but it's the 10% of others that can cause 90% of the problem...  I just had to do a 2hr round-trip to pick up a parcel from an occasional supplier who recently changed their courier,as I didn't know when i was next going to  be in all day...

I have a simple solution to that. I have a note on my office door which asks any courier to leave the package with the office 'next door' if there's nobody in. Then when my entire company is out (the two of us!), as long as the courier can read, the package gets delivered. I know people will come up with reasons why this won't always work, but I haven't had a failure yet.

I have had couriers say they aren't allowed to deliver to alternate addresses unless they have a standing authorization filed at head office.
Another issue can be getting suppliers to deliver credit-card orders to an address other than the cardholder's

[DrGeoff]

Don't let practicalities get in the way of a good idea!
I could drive the DaveMobile around, with a Blue's Bothers type megaphone on the top - ranting!



Dave.

Or maybe the 'DaveBus', perhaps a bit like the 'Democrabus'?

[_Sin]

Rather than lose the car or move the lab, how about moving the car to a rented garage a short walk away?

[eternal_noob]

I'd say gofer it Dave. If you're like me, there's nothing more disastrous for a creative mind not being allowed to have some ''junk'' around. Been there, done that, and my Dog how boring life becomes.
I need the ''junk'' on my bench.

[DrGeoff]

Rather than lose the car or move the lab, how about moving the car to a rented garage a short walk away?

'er indoors is going to love that, having to walk a few blocks with Sagan in tow in the pouring rain to get to the car. I doubt there'd even be any rented garages where Dave is (which is only a few km from where I am).

[BBQdChips]

At my last house, I built a spare garage that was 26x36 feet (~8x12m).  It was done with Gambrel trusses so there was a 16  foot wide (5m)  full length second floor as my seclusion area.  Then I moved, and the new house had no such man heaven.  Over the last 2 years, I've added a home theater, rather large office, and last springs project was my E-lab.  I commandeered the spare bedroom (13x13 feet (~4m square) with an additional closet.  If I ever get enough shelves in here, it'll be adequate.  But since I am slow getting things like cabinetry built, I have boxes of "crap" on the flooor.  All good crap, but I really am lacking for storage.  For me, this would be big enough.  At least for now.  I lack organization more than I do space.

Looking at the opening pages, I tend to agree with Simon on reply 13.  Only you can answer it.  But, judging from all your responses Dave, it appears you have already answered, you just want more reassurance from the peanut gallery! (us).  I didn't read the entire thread, but one thing I didn't see considered on the first two pages was to add a room up in your attic.  You do have one don't you?  Is it large enough to put air conditioning and heat in, even if its electric heat, and just build a lab there?  Even if you had to add a dormer on the house, and perhaps a usable stairway, that's a fairly easy project which doesn't have to face the street (changing the look of the house) and you can have windows and all sorts of great stuff.  People tend to think 2 dimensionally when adding on, and one way that doesn't cost yard space is to add on the "Z axis!".  Go UP young man!

[_Sin]

Rather than lose the car or move the lab, how about moving the car to a rented garage a short walk away?

'er indoors is going to love that, having to walk a few blocks with Sagan in tow in the pouring rain to get to the car. I doubt there'd even be any rented garages where Dave is (which is only a few km from where I am).

Heh.  Where I grew up, having a house with a garage was a bit of a novelty.

Besides, I've seen Australia on the telly, and it's always sunny

[EEVblog]

I didn't read the entire thread, but one thing I didn't see considered on the first two pages was to add a room up in your attic.  You do have one don't you?  Is it large enough to put air conditioning and heat in, even if its electric heat, and just build a lab there?  Even if you had to add a dormer on the house, and perhaps a usable stairway, that's a fairly easy project which doesn't have to face the street (changing the look of the house) and you can have windows and all sorts of great stuff.  People tend to think 2 dimensionally when adding on, and one way that doesn't cost yard space is to add on the "Z axis!".  Go UP young man!

Here in Australia we don't generally have "attics", our roofs are too shallow for that. Mine is a crawl space at best.
Building a vertical extension would cost about the same as this new office.

Dave.

[MikeK]

The size of the lab is inversely proportional to the hotness of the wife.  I saw Dave's wife in one of his videos and he is damn lucky to have any space at all.  If she is willing to allow him more space....TAKE IT before she changes her mind.  You could save space in the other garage slot by getting a motorcycle.

[Bored@Work]

Heh.  Where I grew up, having a house with a garage was a bit of a novelty.

I was so waiting for the next round of this. If no one else does it, I have to do it.

Where I grew up, having a house was a bit of a novelty.

[MikeK]

We didn't have a house.  We used to live in a corridor.  All 27 of us.

[Flavour Flave]

You were lucky to have a corridor!  We had to sleep in the broom cupboard standing up!

[Uncle Vernon]

We had to sleep in the broom cupboard standing up!

Luxury!!!! Our first house was a stack of broken bottles in a snake pit! Our telephone was shouting and flying was catching as many of the little fellas as you could to sell at market!

Yet those were happy times, but try telling that to the young folks of today and they wont believe you!!

[bullet308]

I see a lot of dead space in the top of the garage area. You could suspend a sheet of plywood from the rafters over at least one side (the one with the car) in front of the rollup doors. That would get you a fair bit of storage space, perhaps 4 square meters or so. I have done similar in several garages and you never miss that otherwise useless space.  HTH -Tom

[EEVblog]

The size of the lab is inversely proportional to the hotness of the wife.  I saw Dave's wife in one of his videos and he is damn lucky to have any space at all.

That Lasso of Truth is a real PITA.

Dave.

[Mechatrommer]

duh everytime i saw that picture, i wish i can be a superman.
hey! i thought that yellow thing is a Fluke. must be stereotype.

[deephaven]

duh everytime i saw that picture, i wish i can be a superman.
hey! i thought that yellow thing is a Fluke. must be stereotype.

That's a GPS. Do you still go Geocaching Dave?

Anyone else here do Geocaching?

[ehcaes]

Got room to put a big shed out the backyard and decorate it with heaps of neon lights and stuff?    lol

[electrodynatronic]

Put the little lab inside the big new one. Problem solved, without making a decision.

[IanJ]

Dave,

Not sure if this has been suggested........but you could build a car port in-front of your garage and thus releasing most of the garage for your lab.......you'd save a ton of cash that way.

Or, do what I did and build an electronics workshop out of a shed!.......piccy below.

Ian.

[EEVblog]

duh everytime i saw that picture, i wish i can be a superman.
hey! i thought that yellow thing is a Fluke. must be stereotype.

That's a GPS. Do you still go Geocaching Dave?

Very rarely these days.
Will no doubt get back into it once Sagan gets bigger!

Dave.

[ivan747]

duh everytime i saw that picture, i wish i can be a superman.
hey! i thought that yellow thing is a Fluke. must be stereotype.

That's a GPS. Do you still go Geocaching Dave?

Anyone else here do Geocaching?

I do. I've found 4. Not so many, but it's great fun.

[Lawsen]

No, Dave Jones's lab is the out doors to test the endurance of multimeters.  If he wants to start an indoor EMC lab, yes, he will need an EMC room with those foam, space ship like room.  I have not been inside an EMC room.  This room has to be isolated from all radio noise like a metallic shielded room.  Dave Jones's needs contracts to test multimeters and everyday things like the Android cell telephones.

[GeoffS]

Despite SWMBO's desitre not to move house, that would have to be the best option.
It will give Dave room for a bigger lab and somewhere for Sagan's brothers and/or sisters to grow up.