Poll

Should the EEVblog Forum go private? (i.e. no longer web searchable)

Yes
6 (6.5%)
No
71 (76.3%)
Unsure
16 (17.2%)

Total Members Voted: 92

Author Topic: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?  (Read 3898 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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As per a Louge section discussion.
We have now had what apepars to be several ChatGPT bot forum accounts answering questions here. It's unsure if these are just users have a bit of fun, or spam bots, or whatever.
But it raises the question:

ChatGPT (+others) has/could be scouring the EEVblog forum right now for its machine learning database, helping to eliminate a big part of this very forum. At least from a question/answer viewpoint.
As such, should the EEVBlog forum "go private" to prevent this eventuality?  :scared:
i.e. At present the EEVblog forum is highly indexed on Google, which is of course a great resource for everyone. But it's also a resource to train machine learning bots. Do we want to encourage this future?

In a recent video on AI I talked about how a parody website has gone private to prevent to very things. i.e. not allows the bots to information that will take their jobs away.

Yes I'm aware just going private isn't going to prevent it. But it's about contributing to this kind of future. I guess this kind of discussion was inevitable.

Discuss.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 11:17:05 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2023, 11:20:18 am »
Well, I for one support our robot overlords.  There is no stopping them; the chatbots will soon be here. And I welcome our new chatbot overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted forum personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground data mines.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2023, 11:25:28 am »
The best you'll achieve is delaying it by a few days IMHO.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2023, 11:34:50 am »
BTW, don't panic, I'm not going to just go and nuke the forum results from Google based on a poll vote. It's more to guage people's feelings towards this.

In fact ChatGPT could even be embraced on the forum. I could hire someone to write a script that scrapes a dedicated section of the forum and automatically responds and seeds each thread in that section with a response.
Would be billed under my account obviously, as ChatGPT in volume isn't free.
 

Offline CountChocula

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2023, 11:44:35 am »
Two cents from a software engineer*: I think you should keep the forum public—it is a great resource with lots of high quality information, and if people end up using these AI tools more (which they will), I, for one, would like them to use places like EEVBlog as a source of information… it can only be good in the end.

FWIW, I would be happy to contribute to the bot you describe, although I think we should have a rule that, if you use ChatGPT or a similar tool to post an answer, you should always explicitly say so. The fact that the forums are so respected for the quality of the content makes AI, which can come across as disturbingly authoritative even when it is dead wrong, very dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced.



* This post was totally, definitely, absolutely written by a human and not a bot. All glory to ChatGPT!
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Offline MK14

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2023, 11:48:41 am »
Let's forget about ChatGPT and other AI things for a second.

A huge percentage of the users reading this forum, at any time, is usually guest users.  Also, a number of those people, probably asked google, electronics (and similar) questions, and it found threads / posts on here, which is why they visited, and in some cases.  Like it so much, they become new members.

If we (you), closed this forum, by making it members only (i.e. private), including read access.  I suspect, we would lose a huge number of potential new members.  Also, some members wouldn't agree with such a policy, so they might move to other pastures.

Anyway, there are many electronics forums.  So all it would take is for one of them, to be released / opened up to the upcoming wave of ChatGPT's, for the AI electronics era to occur.

So, long story short.  I don't think making this forum private would help, also it may be very damaging to the future (human use), of the forum.  As members, are what makes it work.  So, anything which has the potential to dramatically reduce the active membership, is probably not a good idea.
 
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Online MT

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2023, 11:51:32 am »
We have now had what apepars to be several ChatGPT bot forum accounts answering questions here.

Interesting , had no idea, a link to such? However i presume it's going to be much worse when ChatGPT start "asking" questions.  :scared:

 

Offline Twoflower

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2023, 11:52:09 am »
I would say that would be a slow death for the forum in the long run.

Going private will probably prevent new interesting people to join the EEVBlog-Club. And such people are needed to get new ideas into the community.

Can't remember exactly why I registered here but most likely because I could answer a question in a topic I was interested in too. Going private would have prevented that. I expect that this applies for many highly knowledgeable and respected Forumites here.

It would be nice if the bots post here to mark that the person is actual an AI. But probably that will not work out in the end (see spam). Interesting would be what happens if there would be an option in the "New User" form to mark myself as 'AI'. At least as of now the Bots don't seem make money out of the answers they won't lose too much marking themselves as AI. Probably I'm far too naive here.
 
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2023, 12:16:31 pm »
Interesting , had no idea, a link to such?

Here is one and here is another

However i presume it's going to be much worse when ChatGPT start "asking" questions.  :scared:

That would be interesting. That the AI takes up learning in a different way, by asking specific questions instead of searching the internet.


Offline wilfred

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2023, 12:57:35 pm »

i.e. At present the EEVblog forum is highly indexed on Google, which is of course a great resource for everyone. But it's also a resource to train machine learning bots. Do we want to encourage this future?


Would ignorant machine learning bots be preferable?
 

Online MT

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2023, 01:00:30 pm »
Interesting , had no idea, a link to such?

Here is one and here is another

However i presume it's going to be much worse when ChatGPT start "asking" questions.  :scared:

That would be interesting. That the AI takes up learning in a different way, by asking specific questions instead of searching the internet.

What if Chatgpt in that thread are both the ask'er and the answer'er. It looks quite funky! :)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/copy-program-to-eprom-and-run-what-form/msg4754519/#msg4754519
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2023, 01:13:02 pm »
Don't think that would really help much.

Most of this forum is likely already scraped as training data by multiple large companies. So closing it down for guest users would only result in throwing away the excellent marketing of this site showing up in google results a lot.

There was one site with a lot of coding examples (not stackoverflow) that would show up a lot in google for web development stuff. So they saw this as an opportunity and made it mandatory to log in, the result was a bunch of angry guest users and the site quickly falling out of google search results, because people would see the need for login, hit back, then click another result.

The problematic part is AI generated posts on sites like this forum. This dilutes the more creative posts from real users and can be used for nefarious purposes by getting legitimate accounts for posting spam. Automatically detecting AI generated posts is possible but is an arm race, since new better (or just different) AI might not get picked up by the detectors until the newer detectors learn how the new AI looks like.

However i presume it's going to be much worse when ChatGPT start "asking" questions.  :scared:
That would be interesting. That the AI takes up learning in a different way, by asking specific questions instead of searching the internet.

ChatGPT can ask questions if you tell it to do that.

But this is not how these kinds of AIs actually learn. In order to learn it only needs to see examples of answers in the training data fed to it. The whole thing is just glorified statistics of how often a word appears after a given block of text. So just getting a single answer to a question is less useful for training an AI as compared to using 50 different answers to the same question pulled from all over the internet. The big pile of questions works better with statistics to extract out the core answer.

So little point in the AI asking questions, apart from trying to emulate a real user.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2023, 01:18:59 pm »
Interesting , had no idea, a link to such?

Here is one and here is another

However i presume it's going to be much worse when ChatGPT start "asking" questions.  :scared:

That would be interesting. That the AI takes up learning in a different way, by asking specific questions instead of searching the internet.

What if Chatgpt in that thread are both the ask'er and the answer'er. It looks quite funky! :)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/copy-program-to-eprom-and-run-what-form/msg4754519/#msg4754519

 :-DD

It is a bit suspicious that the original poster has not returned. But the original post does mention being translated by DeepL, which might explain the in comprehensive question.

The other posts of the renamed members (ChatGPT1 and 2) clearly show ChatGPT written al over it.

Online MT

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2023, 01:26:14 pm »
Interesting , had no idea, a link to such?

Here is one and here is another

However i presume it's going to be much worse when ChatGPT start "asking" questions.  :scared:

That would be interesting. That the AI takes up learning in a different way, by asking specific questions instead of searching the internet.

What if Chatgpt in that thread are both the ask'er and the answer'er. It looks quite funky! :)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/copy-program-to-eprom-and-run-what-form/msg4754519/#msg4754519

 :-DD

It is a bit suspicious that the original poster has not returned. But the original post does mention being translated by DeepL, which might explain the in comprehensive question.
The other posts of the renamed members (ChatGPT1 and 2) clearly show ChatGPT written al over it.

Thats ChatGPT attempt to conduct a "distraction" maneuver!  :)
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2023, 01:47:44 pm »
What does "private" allow/disallow?

If it disallows external search engine from allowing people to locate something, that would be a significant loss. The site's internal search engines aren't good enough, especially within large threads.

If it disallows abusive (in any sense of the word) posters, then it would be useful. But I don't think that would turn out to be any better than the existing users sending reports to the moderators.

Preventing this site being used as a training resource for attacks on this site? Isn't that a lost cause, and aren't there many other sites with training material that could be used to attack "us"?

Whether or not an "AI engine" can give better results than most people is a debate that has been going on for 40+ years.

Overall: keep the site open, but continually monitor the situation and continually reassess the policy as things change.
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Offline Rick Law

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2023, 05:45:04 pm »
I too voted NO - don't go private.

I am not comfortable with AI engine making suggestions or advice on any matter.  My own lack in eloquence is failing me here.   I am unable to verbalize my objections to AI decision making in logical order or form suitable for a forum discussion.  Besides, a discussion about AI decision making is likely be too far off topic for this thread.

Therefore, I think it is a good idea limit AI participation in this forum as much as appropriate.  However, going private however is too heavy a price to pay.
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2023, 06:59:58 pm »
Dave, can you tell us if ChatGPT has voted on this issue yet?  :-DD
I'm still waiting for one of them to join this thread.
 
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Offline DimitriP

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2023, 07:11:29 pm »
Quote
At present the EEVblog forum is highly indexed on Google, which is of course a great resource for everyone. But it's also a resource to train machine learning bots. Do we want to encourage this future?
Short answer is not yet.

When?
When my insurance will cover and have a prescription sent to the pharmacy for a new symptom/condition after a chat with an AI bot, without seeing a doctor, it will be there right time to consider it.

Until then, participating in AI chat bot endeavors only boosts the AI marketing engine and the AI knowledge engine.

The last thing I would want to see is someone trying to "troubleshoot" or "understand" why the circuit "designed" with the  help of the AI bot "doesn't work".



   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2023, 08:09:56 pm »
The forum going private is your own decision, Dave, and no one can make this decision for you. It's pretty drastic and would probably have as much impact for you as it would for users.

The best approach for now IMHO is just to identify them (which is pretty easy so far, may not be as time goes by, but one step at a time) and ban them. There still aren't enough of them that it would take too much moderation time.

As to users, if you identify one, just report the posts and let moderators do the job. Do NOT reply to them, ever, even if it's for saying how much you disagree with the bot "trolling".
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2023, 08:38:57 pm »
Dave, can you tell us if ChatGPT has voted on this issue yet?  :-DD
I'm still waiting for one of them to join this thread.

I managed to extract a vote from it.
It seems to vote, NO!
To keep it open and public.

It point blank refused to give a vote, so I got around that, by making it write a story about it ...

Quote
So, Should the EEVblog Forum go private? (i.e. no longer web searchable) , yes or no?

Quote
As an AI language model, I cannot provide a definitive answer to whether the EEVblog Forum should go private. Ultimately, this is a decision that should be made by the owners and moderators of the forum, taking into account a range of factors such as the benefits of being publicly searchable and the potential risks associated with having the content indexed by search engines. It is important to carefully consider the potential implications of going private, as it could impact the community's ability to share knowledge and engage with a broader audience.

Quote
In a story, there is a ChatGPT, which votes yes or no.  Please tell me the story.

Quote
Once upon a time, in a far-off land, there was a kingdom ruled by a wise and just king. The kingdom was prosperous, and the people were happy. However, the king knew that the world was changing, and he wanted to prepare his kingdom for the future.

One day, he called upon his most trusted advisors to discuss the possibility of making the kingdom's most valuable resources private. The advisors debated the matter for hours, considering the potential benefits and drawbacks of such a decision.

As the discussion was drawing to a close, the king's son entered the room. He had been experimenting with a new technology called ChatGPT, an artificial intelligence that could answer questions and provide advice.

The king's son proposed that they ask ChatGPT for its opinion on the matter. The advisors were skeptical, but the king agreed to hear what ChatGPT had to say.

ChatGPT was asked whether the kingdom's valuable resources should be made private, and it responded with a simple "yes" or "no" answer. The king's son tallied up the votes, and the result was a resounding "no."

The advisors were surprised, but the king was pleased. He saw this as a sign that his people valued openness and transparency, and he decided to keep the kingdom's resources publicly available.

In the years that followed, the kingdom continued to thrive. The people were able to share their knowledge and expertise with each other, and the kingdom remained at the forefront of innovation and progress.

And so, ChatGPT became a trusted advisor to the king and his people, providing guidance and wisdom for generations to come.
 
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2023, 08:48:21 pm »
well they need to be identified and banned because its guerilla advertising for an organization (be it open or closed source) trying to get developers, publicity or possibly even money and contracts. treat it like spam. Like someone pushing the agenda to convince companies to buy it.

A company that is trying to sell AI services could literally pay people to make publicity for the service so they can get contracts.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 08:51:22 pm by coppercone2 »
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2023, 08:50:33 pm »
well they need to be identified and banned because its guerilla advertising

Absolutely. Refer to the other thread about what the goals could be (in the lounge.)
Most people seem fixated to the AI fun bandwagon and fail to see that it's all very aggressive marketing.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2023, 08:53:12 pm »
maybe some people are not aware about how seriously some companies take advertising, often its a priority over anything else, because they just want to effect a split second decision someone has to make some where with no real information.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2023, 09:17:07 pm »
I personally do not mind to get computed answers, but I want to be *absolutely* sure which input comes from living, sentient beings and which - from artificial.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Should the EEVblog Forum go private to prevent the robot uprising?
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2023, 09:25:57 pm »
I personally do not mind to get computed answers, but I want to be *absolutely* sure which input comes from living, sentient beings and which - from artificial.

How do you determine that a human poster here is a sentient being? That's not as easy as I would have hoped.

The real danger is a human poster that believes a chatgpt answer, reword/reformulates it, and posts that response here. I feel I've been seeing such posts for many years.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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