Author Topic: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands  (Read 38500 times)

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Online xrunner

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Apr 19, 2017, 12:20pm EDT

A startup called Juicero sells a $400 machine for making fresh-squeezed juice. Customers buy the machine and then they get a subscription to special Juicero bags of unsqueezed fruit. You put a bag into the machine and push a button, and in a couple of minutes you have a cup of fresh-squeezed juice.

But a pair of Bloomberg reporters discovered something hilarious: Squeezing the bags with your hands works about as well as doing it with the machine. You don’t really need a $400 machine at all.

Investors have pumped $118.5 million into this dubious invention. And the fact that the company was able to raise that kind of money says a lot about the state of Silicon Valley right now.

http://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/4/19/15357290/juicero-400-machine-hands

https://youtu.be/5lutHF5HhVA
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Offline evb149

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Makes me think I should have chosen to be a sleazy MBA entrepreneur getting $millions for bad ideas rather than an underappreciated engineer getting $nothing for good ideas.

Then again in totally different contexts be afraid of machines that "work as well as hands".  As soon as they get machines (industrial robots) that work even anywhere NEAR as well as hands for any given task, presto tens or hundreds of thousands will be out of work.

 
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Offline Bud

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A pair of scisors from a dollar store is all you need, just cut the juce pack neck or punch a hole, why go to squeezing efforts.
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Offline amyk

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In other words, thanks to marketing, you can make people buy an overpriced "cloud connected" gadget that works only with proprietary DRM'd cartridges and ultimately creates more waste. I bet the company is going to "redesign" or "revamp" or whatever other buzzwordy marketing terms are popular today these packages to make them harder to operate by hand, and then claim it's "better"... :palm:
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Investors have pumped $118.5 million into this dubious invention. And the fact that the company was able to raise that kind of money says a lot about the state of Silicon Valley the human race right now.
 

Online xrunner

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A pair of scisors from a dollar store is all you need, just cut the juce pack neck or punch a hole, why go to squeezing efforts.

To be fair, I think the bags have slices of fruit that have to be squeezed to get the juice, But come on - I can easily use ancient technology such as my grandmothers rolling pin to squeeze the bag.

I say that as I confess to making coffee with K-cups ...  :palm:
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Offline jm_araujo

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It has been discussed previously by Dave in The Amp Hour a couple of months ago: http://theamphour.com/321-monster-scale-production/
Edit: and also here: http://theamphour.com/327-an-interview-with-avidan-ross/


I think it was because of this article who covers it in some detail: http://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/2016/08/how-is-this-thing.html
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 10:39:28 am by jm_araujo »
 

Online wraper

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Real thing, and don't require internet and presqueezed bags. As if there were just cut fruits and vegetables, you wouldn't be able to squeeze by hands.
 

Offline mc172

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These juicer kale-heads are the modern audiophiles.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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PPPPFFFFT! That ain't a juicer! Let's show this utter pile of :bullshit: what it means to be juiced!

Is Hydraulic Press Action anywhere here? >:D
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline evb149

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They actually exist (and actually work):


PPPPFFFFT! That ain't a juicer! Let's show this utter pile of :bullshit: what it means to be juiced!

Is Hydraulic Press Action anywhere here? >:D
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Piece of junk compared to the Juice Loosener.



"It's whisper quiet!"
 
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Online blueskull

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$400 hand job machine! It reminded me the automated masturbation machine used in Chinese semen banks to collect semen...
 

Offline AndyC_772

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According to the BBC they're now giving refunds:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39664483

"Chief executive Jeff Dunn said the criticism overlooked the "experience" of the machine.

He claimed the "hacking" of the pouches did not produce the same quality of juice. saying the machine was calibrated to deal with different ingredients differently.

But Juicero has now given customers the chance to return the machine and get their money back, including those who bought it at its launch price of $699."


This bit made me laugh especially:

"Mr Dunn said that because each pouch of fruit and vegetables was individually tagged, the firm could remotely disable them"

 :-DD

Offline NANDBlog

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Packs: Starting at $29.99 per weekly 5-Pack Bundle

This remids me. If I buy raspberrys at the store, I pay 3 EUR for 100g. If I buy them frozen, it is 3 EUR for 1KG. They ask for 30 dollars for ~1kg of fruit, please subscribe, and buy our 400 EUR fruit juicer.
I've seen someone making a kickstarter, to use sun and wind energy to dry clothes.
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Offline DimitriP

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I've seen someone making a kickstarter, to use sun and wind energy to dry clothes.

Here is a contraption that works in the shade as well :) :

   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 
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Online frozenfrogz

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Well: That’s what you get, when you cut funds in the education sector...
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Offline Sredni

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You guys do not understand!  ;)
This is a machine aimed at vegetarian and vegan people.
They do not have the strength to squeeze those bags themselves.  >:D

Seriously, this overpriced marketing might have its reason to exist for older and/or debilitated people. Think someone with arthritis. That would be useful to them. Especially if they need to reassure themselves about their status. "Look, I can spend hundreds of dollars on a juicener".

For me the big no-no is the proprietary format of the squeezable material.
But I'm the kind of person who would go to Brazil to pick his own coffee to toast and grind before even thinking of buying one of those coffe machines that require proprietary capsules.
All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 
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Offline madires

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This bit made me laugh especially:

"Mr Dunn said that because each pouch of fruit and vegetables was individually tagged, the firm could remotely disable them"

I see, that's their business model. The next step after ink and toner cartridges with chips is full remote control of consumables to make sure that the customer buys only the overpriced genuine refill packs. And if the customer posts a bad review, the juicer or pouches of a specific flavour will be disabled remotely. No wonder that investors have put so much money into that. The only downside is that tiny design error.  >:D

PS: I prefer fresh fruits and vegetables from the family's garden.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:56:26 am by madires »
 
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Online wraper

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This bit made me laugh especially:

"Mr Dunn said that because each pouch of fruit and vegetables was individually tagged, the firm could remotely disable them"

 :-DD
I already imagine a bright future. Government structures can disable all of the food for you, if you don't play with them well.
 

Online xrunner

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But I'm the kind of person who would go to Brazil to pick his own coffee to toast and grind before even thinking of buying one of those coffe machines that require proprietary capsules.

Well if I lived in Antarctica I would too.  :-DD

(look at his country flag)
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Offline amyk

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According to the BBC they're now giving refunds:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39664483

"Chief executive Jeff Dunn said the criticism overlooked the "experience" of the machine.

He claimed the "hacking" of the pouches did not produce the same quality of juice. saying the machine was calibrated to deal with different ingredients differently.

But Juicero has now given customers the chance to return the machine and get their money back, including those who bought it at its launch price of $699."


This bit made me laugh especially:

"Mr Dunn said that because each pouch of fruit and vegetables was individually tagged, the firm could remotely disable them"

 :-DD
That is hilarious, but if you think about it, refunding the machine still means they get to profit from purchases of the overpriced "cartridges" which people can still "juice" themselves.
 

Online PA0PBZ

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That is hilarious, but if you think about it, refunding the machine still means they get to profit from purchases of the overpriced "cartridges" which people can still "juice" themselves.

No, you can only buy the 'cartridges' if you own a machine.
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Online EEVblog

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According to the BBC they're now giving refunds:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39664483

"Chief executive Jeff Dunn said the criticism overlooked the "experience" of the machine.

He claimed the "hacking" of the pouches did not produce the same quality of juice. saying the machine was calibrated to deal with different ingredients differently.

But Juicero has now given customers the chance to return the machine and get their money back, including those who bought it at its launch price of $699."


This bit made me laugh especially:

"Mr Dunn said that because each pouch of fruit and vegetables was individually tagged, the firm could remotely disable them"

 :-DD

Comedy GOLD!  :-DD  :-+
 

Online xrunner

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That is hilarious, but if you think about it, refunding the machine still means they get to profit from purchases of the overpriced "cartridges" which people can still "juice" themselves.

Right, It's like a Swiffer or something like it. The point is not to make a lot of money on the Swiffer hardware (the metal stick thingy that holds the Swiffer refill). The point is to get something into the consumer's hands that requires a refill, which gets used up over and over. You'd want to get as many juice sqeezer machines out as fast and as cheap as possible and sell the refills. Then screw the consumer over with high-priced refills, preferable with a microchip that doesn't allow anyone else's refills. :-//
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Online wraper

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I just got the best business idea ever. Internet of things toilet with monthly subscription fee. Only proprietary toilet paper allowed and every roll has it's own RFID, authenticity verified on the cloud. 3D results get automatically uploaded to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc, so you spare your time doing it manually.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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I wondered what happens to the waste once the bag has been squeezed dry, but according to their web site, that's covered too. I kid ye not:

"Once pressed, the pulp inside can be eaten (our preference)"

Source: https://www.juicero.com/the-packs/

Online xrunner

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I wondered what happens to the waste once the bag has been squeezed dry, but according to their web site, that's covered too. I kid ye not:

"Once pressed, the pulp inside can be eaten (our preference)"

Source: https://www.juicero.com/the-packs/

Wait a sec ... I think I just got a terrific idea!

Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?  ::)
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Offline Mark

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I just got the best business idea ever. Internet of things toilet with monthly subscription fee. Only proprietary toilet paper allowed and every roll has it's own RFID, authenticity verified on the cloud. 3D results get automatically uploaded to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc, so you spare your time doing it manually.

"Internet of Toilet". 

It will send data to a remote server and share your pooping profile with hundreds of companies.  "We see you're having difficulties.  Would you like assistance?". 
 

Online nctnico

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I wondered what happens to the waste once the bag has been squeezed dry, but according to their web site, that's covered too. I kid ye not:

"Once pressed, the pulp inside can be eaten (our preference)"

Source: https://www.juicero.com/the-packs/

Wait a sec ... I think I just got a terrific idea!

Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?  ::)
Even better: just buy juice with pulp (but without added sugar).
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Actually there are "smart toilets" on the market that can analyze your pee. A lot of medical doctors raved about it, because the huge benefit in diagnostics is being able to do long-term sampling. For some that is a true blessing.

However, we are not talking about sharing your poop on Twitter.
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Online wraper

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I just got the best business idea ever. Internet of things toilet with monthly subscription fee. Only proprietary toilet paper allowed and every roll has it's own RFID, authenticity verified on the cloud. 3D results get automatically uploaded to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc, so you spare your time doing it manually.

"Internet of Toilet". 

It will send data to a remote server and share your pooping profile with hundreds of companies.  "We see you're having difficulties.  Would you like assistance?".
Poop data mining  :-DD
 
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Offline RGB255_0_0

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Actually there are "smart toilets" on the market that can analyze your pee. A lot of medical doctors raved about it, because the huge benefit in diagnostics is being able to do long-term sampling. For some that is a true blessing.

However, we are not talking about sharing your poop on Twitter.
And any insurance companies.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 
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Offline free_electron

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ah , you;re all just jaleous you didn't come up with the idea and nobody gave you  a bazillion dollars. ( note : i'm jaleous too )
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Offline Kalvin

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Does it run on Batteroos and will it give 800% more juice?
 
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Offline brucehoult

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People are looking at this the wrong way.

Maybe the machine is a bit overpriced, though with a limited production run it's not going to be all that cheap to make.

But the BIG thing is the subscription for packs of five bags of fruit&veges for US$30. That's SIX BUCKS each. Every week. $1500 a year.

That's the real gold mine here.

Let them squeeze it with their hands if they want. Irrelevant to the business model.
 

Offline josecamoessilva

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Sorry, people, but since I saw a standard 3ft cat-5 ethernet cable for $1000 because it was a "audiophile-grade digital connector" I think of all these products as pikers. And let's not forget that Richard Mille sells mechanical watches about 100x less precise than the network-synched clock on your phone for...

US $200,000.

No, not kidding: https://www.essential-watches.com/watch/Richard-Mille-RM004-Felippe-Massa-Chronograph-in-Rose-Gold-on-Black-Rubber-Strap-with-Skeleton-Dial/72927

So, a juicer for $400? I'm pretty sure I know a few people who're going to buy one. Because cloud. And internet of things.

Edit: sorry, forgot to say, that's a used Richard Mille watch for $200k.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 07:18:39 pm by josecamoessilva »
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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That watch has the name of an F1 driver in it, so that takes the price up another zero.
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Offline timgiles

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Any numpty who ponies up 400 dollars, euros, krona, pounds etc... for a machine that produces pressed juice at a price of 8 dollars, euros, krona, pounds per glass - is clearly at the point in life where money means nothing to them.  |O |O |O |O |O
 

Offline Kilrah

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Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?  ::)

The reason such things have some success is precisely because they change the boring usual way of doing it.

I feel like people are just getting bored in this day and age, and more and more new things nowadays are thus just about finding a different way to do stuff simply to try and keep people entertained, regardless of how useless or inefficient it is. And it will be since most of daily life's actions have reached "maturity" and their most efficient implementation decades ago, and any change thus has to become worse... but that's good, becasue in 10 years we'll be able to introduce a change again by bringing back the good old way that people will have forgotten in the meantime.

I see such a cycle in many fields. The lack of real progress calls for going backwards because regular change is needed. The linear progress doesn't work anymore so it's turned into a slow oscillation around the plateau.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:32:20 pm by Kilrah »
 
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Online xrunner

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There's a new follow-up article on it - here's a snippet -

Quote
One big question Dunn doesn’t answer is why Juicero doesn’t just ship out bags of juice. After all, Juicero is already acquiring the fruits and vegetables, processing them, and shipping them out to customers. Presumably, Juicero could squeeze the fruits and vegetables in their factory and then ship just the juice to the customer — not only reducing shipping weight but saving the customer the trouble of pressing the juice. Juicero claims that its approach yields the freshest possible juice, but it’s not obvious that fruit pulp stored in a bag actually stays fresh longer than juice stored in a bottle.

http://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/4/21/15376038/juicero-explained
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Offline josecamoessilva

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Hey, I just realized: you can buy things with money. I want some of that money.

(thinking)
(thinking)
(thinking)


Don't buy a Juicero. Invest now in a Jose Camoes Silva Advanced Home Juicing System, with only the most advanced technologies and no DRM!





Act now!
 
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Online xrunner

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Hey, I just realized: you can buy things with money. I want some of that money.

(thinking)
(thinking)
(thinking)

Don't buy a Juicero. Invest now in a Jose Camoes Silva Advanced Home Juicing System, with only the most advanced technologies and no DRM!


Looks good, but what happens when I run out of veggies? Does it talk to the cloud and order me more on my pre-approved credit card?
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Offline timb

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I just got the best business idea ever. Internet of things toilet with monthly subscription fee. Only proprietary toilet paper allowed and every roll has it's own RFID, authenticity verified on the cloud. 3D results get automatically uploaded to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc, so you spare your time doing it manually.

"Internet of Toilet". 

It will send data to a remote server and share your pooping profile with hundreds of companies.  "We see you're having difficulties.  Would you like assistance?".
Poop data mining  :-DD

The problem comes when your $5b startup ends up a registered sex offender simply because some kid sat down on your eToilet and had his unique topographic anal profile scanned and uploaded over the internet.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:47:41 am by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 
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Offline rrinker

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That is hilarious, but if you think about it, refunding the machine still means they get to profit from purchases of the overpriced "cartridges" which people can still "juice" themselves.

Right, It's like a Swiffer or something like it. The point is not to make a lot of money on the Swiffer hardware (the metal stick thingy that holds the Swiffer refill). The point is to get something into the consumer's hands that requires a refill, which gets used up over and over. You'd want to get as many juice sqeezer machines out as fast and as cheap as possible and sell the refills. Then screw the consumer over with high-priced refills, preferable with a microchip that doesn't allow anyone else's refills. :-//

 See also, the razor is free - but don't ask how much the blades cost.
 

Offline Vgkid

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Penguinz0 did his take on it  :-DD
NSFW (Language)
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Online xrunner

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 :wtf:

It needs an app too?

 :wtf:
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Offline digsys

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Quote from: Vgkid
Penguinz0 did his take on it  :-DD  ...
That was funny as fook !! We got to employ this guy to do EEVBlog videos :-)  Please Dave .. please .. please ... please ...
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline Sredni

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"John, what's wrong? What happened to you? You look like s**t!"
"I'm starving, my Internet is down and my Eagle Juicero can not check the QR codes are legit!"
All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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I've said this before and I'll say it again: A truly "smart" home is one which has proper thought that went into the design, not how many gadgets and IoT devices you can cram into it. Proper placement of power points and light switches along with "banks" of lights in large rooms and the addition of dimmer switches is something easily done.

Sometimes simple is better. For example, I don't use an electric kettle. I use a gas cook top with a stainless steel kettle to boil my water (and yes, it even whistles to notify when it's finished). No electric elements to die, it looks nice and does the one job it's required to do perfectly.
 
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Offline MarkS

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What's to stop someone from cutting the QR code off of a packet, taping it to the sensor and then filling an empty packet with fruit? Sure, you'll get tons of ads for Florida orange juice since it thinks you make nothing but orange juice, but it will sure save you a ton of money. Not to mention that QR codes are very well documented and easy to read and create. I doubt the information contained within is encrypted. I can just make my own and print it.

I wonder how hard it would be for the average user to modify the internals so that the press is directly connected to a switch hacked into the side of the unit, completely bypassing the stupid IoT guts?
 

Offline Halcyon

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I wonder how hard it would be for the average user to modify the internals so that the press is directly connected to a switch hacked into the side of the unit, completely bypassing the stupid IoT guts?

Or just go to the supermarket and buy a bottle of 100% fruit juice. Yes, you can actually buy proper pressed fruit juice (not that concentrate crap) without any added sugar, water, etc... from your local shop. Not to mention an entire 2 litre container is cheaper than one of those single glass Juicero packs. This thing is truly a product for morons.
 

Offline MarkS

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Or just go to the supermarket and buy a bottle of 100% fruit juice. Yes, you can actually buy proper pressed fruit juice (not that concentrate crap) without any added sugar, water, etc... from your local shop. Not to mention an entire 2 litre container is cheaper than one of those single glass Juicero packs. This thing is truly a product for morons.

That goes without saying. There is no justification for the existence of this device. However, if you got drunk one night and woke up to this on your door or have family members with more money than brains, it might be useful to know how to get around the idiocy of this overpriced, overly complicated abomination and insult to technology.
 

Offline Halcyon

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... or have family members with more money than brains, it might be useful to know how to get around the idiocy of this overpriced, overly complicated abomination and insult to technology.

If you have THAT much money, you can afford to hire someone to bring you fresh juice at the ring of a bell... possibly with a stick of celery and Vodka in it.
 

Offline MarkS

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If you have THAT much money, you can afford to hire someone to bring you fresh juice at the ring of a bell... possibly with a stick of celery and Vodka in it.

I meant family members giving one as a gift.

::must remember to always be achingly pedantic when replying on eevblog... must remember to always be achingly pedantic when replying on eevblog... must remember to always be achingly pedantic when replying on eevblog... ::    ;D
 

Online EEVblog

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What's to stop someone from cutting the QR code off of a packet, taping it to the sensor and then filling an empty packet with fruit? Sure, you'll get tons of ads for Florida orange juice since it thinks you make nothing but orange juice, but it will sure save you a ton of money. Not to mention that QR codes are very well documented and easy to read and create. I doubt the information contained within is encrypted. I can just make my own and print it.

AFAIK they are unique single use codes and it has to report back to the server to verify before it presses the juice.
Yes, no internet = no juice  :palm:
 

Offline Sredni

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They have to be stopped!  :-DD

Mock them to death.
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Offline AndyC_772

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If you have THAT much money, you can afford to hire someone to bring you fresh juice at the ring of a bell... possibly with a stick of celery and Vodka in it.
Don't be daft, $400 is much less than the price of a decent coffee machine. The problem with this machine is nothing to do with the price.

The problem with it is that the IoT features *only* exist to make the machine worse than it would be without them.

I can accept - just! - that different ingredients might require different pressures or squashing times to give best results, and that having some kind of identifier on the bag to configure the machine might (just might!) give a better experience to the end user.

There's no reason at all, though, why this information can't be stored directly on the QR code, ie. "press at 70% of full power for 90 seconds".

The internet connectivity *only* exists to involve the manufacturer with each operation, to log usage data and prevent the use of anything other than the expensive bags. There is *no* benefit to the end user.

That's why this machine, and maybe a few of its juice packs, belongs on Hydraulic Press Channel.

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Yesterday I watched »Idiocracy« again. I can smell some similarities here :D

On a brighter note: Stupid proprietary devices give birth to a whole new generation of makers and tinkerers that are fed up with *beep* not working.

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Offline timb

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Yesterday I watched »Idiocracy« again. I can smell some similarities here :D

On a brighter note: Stupid proprietary devices give birth to a whole new generation of makers and tinkerers that are fed up with *beep* not working.



Oh man, I'd forgotten all about Fruit Fucker 2000! What a blast from the past.
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Offline Marco

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I was just thinking to myself, some kind of self cleaning blender would be a lot better way to create "fresh" juice with convenience from frozen components (freezing is perfect way to preserve fruit/veg for drinks ... no need to care about cell walls rupturing). I was apparently not the first to think so, they're even copying the juicer distribution model of working with their own cups (I assume they are single use at least as far as the machine is concerned).

A smarter more high tech device which actually provides some real convenience (the juicer packs are still perishable, it provides bugger all but cost). The subscription lockin model is still scammy as hell though. I assume they have self cleaning blenders on patent lock down, a government enforced scam would be the only way to keep this kind of scam alive for long.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 02:05:38 pm by Marco »
 

Offline rrinker

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 Know how we USED to do it? There was an attachment for my grandmother's stand mixer and you just sliced each orange in half and held it over the rotating attachment. Juice ran down the spout into the pitcher. Hardly any effort at all, and no fancy single task machine. They still make those.

 

Offline josecamoessilva

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Donald Norman (who is probably known to some here, and should be read by all engineers) made a big deal of this design (not his own):
 

Offline brucehoult

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Know how we USED to do it? There was an attachment for my grandmother's stand mixer and you just sliced each orange in half and held it over the rotating attachment. Juice ran down the spout into the pitcher. Hardly any effort at all, and no fancy single task machine. They still make those.

Sure, and my mother still uses her 1970s Kenwood "Chef" which, as my Dad used to like to claim "Has a bigger motor than his concrete mixer".
 

Offline rrinker

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 There's an episode of James May's The Reassembler where he puts together one of those Kenwoods. Pretty beefy machines. Like Kitchen-Aid USED to be in the US (the newer ones use cheaper metal in the gears and so forth). My Grandmother's was from the 1950's and still worked fine into the 80's. No idea where it ended up - I'd bet if it were still around it would still work.

 

Offline timb

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There's an episode of James May's The Reassembler where he puts together one of those Kenwoods. Pretty beefy machines. Like Kitchen-Aid USED to be in the US (the newer ones use cheaper metal in the gears and so forth). My Grandmother's was from the 1950's and still worked fine into the 80's. No idea where it ended up - I'd bet if it were still around it would still work.

I've got my Grandmother's Kitchen-Aid Mixer from the late-50's and it still works like the day it was new. It's been used pretty much weekly over it's life and it really is built to last. I'm the third generation in my family to have it; I'm sure my kids will use it too. (If they don't have Multiverse Connected Smart Space Blenders by then.)
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Offline Kilrah

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Know how we USED to do it? There was an attachment for my grandmother's stand mixer and you just sliced each orange in half and held it over the rotating attachment. Juice ran down the spout into the pitcher. Hardly any effort at all, and no fancy single task machine. They still make those.

As long as it's the one with the spout and not the  |O >:( :scared: version with the grate I'm fine. The latter is one of the most annoying things ever.
 

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Offline Muxr

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Don't turn it on!  Take it apart!

https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50

Tim
Nice.. the cost of the product itself for what it is really isn't overpriced.. the problem is that it's a Rube Goldberg machine.
 
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Offline FrankBuss

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Don't turn it on!  Take it apart!

https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50

"There are dozens of components and subsystems that are incredibly complex and beautifully engineered". I disagree. It is not beautiful, if you design something with lots of expensive parts, which could be done simpler.

I have one of these juicer:

https://preisvergleich.check24.de/entsafter/panasonic-mj-dj01.html

It costs only a fraction, is faster and you can even feed whole apples (if they are not too big). This Juicero presses only one glass in the time I can juice one liter. I can even mix different things, like carrots, apples and oranges, one of my favorites. And no QR code or internet needed.
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Online xrunner

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Wow! That's incredible for a consumer juice squeezer! The engineering is superb, but my gawd, to squeeze juice.  :palm:

https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50
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Online frozenfrogz

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Anyone remember Dr Nobel Price from the Sesame Street? xD

« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 11:51:02 pm by frozenfrogz »
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Offline t_ryner

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I'm definitely not the smartest person in the world, much less on this site. However, this seems like a extraneous solution to a problem that has already been solved. 
 

Offline marshallh

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Seems like an elaborate money laundering scheme.
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Offline amyk

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Don't turn it on!  Take it apart!

https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50

Tim
Nice.. the cost of the product itself for what it is really isn't overpriced.. the problem is that it's a Rube Goldberg machine.
For the price and force I was actually expecting hydraulics.

...and using ball bearings for supporting the sliding press plate is somehow innovative? My desk drawers all have that... :-//

(That URL reminded me of AvE, someone who I'd probably enjoy seeing taking something like this apart. "Keep your dick in a vise Juicero" :P)
 
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Offline t_ryner

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It seems pretty basic for a juicer, in the cutaway view you can see the motors, wifi board (WHY! JUST WHY!), switches, and a power supply. I think the wifi board and the custom power supply, along with the casing amount for the majority of the cost. I don't see where the other $150 is coming from though.

If you're interested, I found this miscellaneous control system on amazon. Supposedly for rc cars.

- https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Controller-H-bridge-Regulator-Current/dp/B017FZDVJY/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1493089180&sr=8-10&keywords=wifi+control+board
 

Offline digsys

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Quote from: t_ryner
...  this seems like a extraneous solution to a problem that has already been solved. 
I'm not supposed to do this .. but if you send me $50, I'll let you in on the secrets !! But keep it quiet !
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline Kilrah

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Beautiful parts and construction indeed - but looks like it's overkill even for the forces involved, not to mention that in the first place something like a roller that moves from top to bottom would have drastically reduced them.
 

Offline Muxr

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Don't turn it on!  Take it apart!

https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50

Tim
Nice.. the cost of the product itself for what it is really isn't overpriced.. the problem is that it's a Rube Goldberg machine.
For the price and force I was actually expecting hydraulics.

...and using ball bearings for supporting the sliding press plate is somehow innovative? My desk drawers all have that... :-//

(That URL reminded me of AvE, someone who I'd probably enjoy seeing taking something like this apart. "Keep your dick in a vise Juicero" :P)
I mean yeah, it's not anything special nor is it particularly affordable.. we don't know the quantity it was made in.. if it's low quantity it could be reasonable just from the pure manufacturing stand point. This whole other issue aside.
 

Offline Kilrah

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You don't make low quantities of something that needs to support large continued sales of consumables...
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Beautiful parts and construction indeed - but looks like it's overkill even for the forces involved

I like overkill. Overkill is reliable. I like reliable.

I don't think anyone has suggested that the machine is actually bad at juicing, nor can I believe anyone would have even noticed this machine if it weren't for the comedy IoT features.

Expensive, but nevertheless attractive and well built kitchen gadgets are nothing new or remarkable. This one doesn't need much in the way of modification to make it a perfectly acceptable product IMHO:

- remove network connection, QR scanner, and the whole idIoT way of thinking
- design and produce refillable juice bags (a simple roll top, with a clip in the machine to hold it closed?)

Offline MarkS

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- remove network connection, QR scanner, and the whole idIoT way of thinking
- design and produce refillable juice bags (a simple roll top, with a clip in the machine to hold it closed?)

It appears that their business plan revolves around a strong DRM mechanism and mandatory juice packet subscriptions. I would guess that the machine itself is priced at or just slightly above cost. Remove the DRM and subscriptions and they will be out of business in a month. Not that I'd complain though...
 
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Offline Kilrah

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I don't think anyone has suggested that the machine is actually bad at juicing
No, but not particularly good either.

Yup. If they removed the IOT stuff and made reusable bags then it would be no more than a conventional juicer, and they'd sell 0 of their machine they'd now have to price at $2000 because the subscription model they'd make their actual income with falls apart.
Even a super premium design conventional juicer wouldn't sell at those prices.

The fact the price of the machine has gone down from $700 to $400 indeed shows they're now likely only making a tiny margin on it if any at all.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:55:10 am by Kilrah »
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Remove the DRM and subscriptions and they will be out of business in a month. Not that I'd complain though...

Sure, I've no problem with that either. In fact I'd be surprised if someone doesn't start a little business of their own, selling very simple control PCBs which completely replace the electronics in the Juicero, along with a few refillable bags.

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Doesn't look as though it'd be that difficult to modify with a switch you have to use to press the juice, and add some protection so people don't crush themselves in it with some sensors.

I don't see the surprise in the fact people would but this: Juice+ and Slim Fast have been around for a long time, particularly the latter and its psychological DRM (points).

Preying on people's naivety and anxieties will never truly fail.
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Offline MarkS

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Sure, I've no problem with that either. In fact I'd be surprised if someone doesn't start a little business of their own, selling very simple control PCBs which completely replace the electronics in the Juicero, along with a few refillable bags.

I am highly tempted to do that myself, but lack the resources.
 

Offline Kilrah

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In fact I'd be surprised if someone doesn't start a little business of their own, selling very simple control PCBs which completely replace the electronics in the Juicero, along with a few refillable bags.
That would only work for a short while if the company folds and you find machines at on clearance at $100 and people who weren't interested in the original concept pick them up.

Otherwise you'd be trying to sell something to people who precisely don't want what you offer. People who will be seduced by the juicero offer and will buy this thing are those who don't want the time/mess to prepare fruit and cleanup, they are precisely after the "quick and no-mess" disposable bag aspect, so a refillable bag is the opposite of what they want.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 09:08:20 am by Kilrah »
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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I wish someone would take the 2 hours necessary to replicate this whole machine with an arduino, ESP8266 and linear actuator. Just to point out the absurdity of it.
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Offline AndyC_772

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That would only work for a short while if the company folds and you find machines at on clearance at $100 and people who weren't interested in the original concept pick them up.

I wouldn't have invested $118.5 million, though.

If the company folds and its servers go down, *every* buyer of the machine would need refillable bags.

It's annoying that the (required) power supply is part of the same PCB. I wonder how hard is to flash new firmware via that internal USB connection? (Let the arms race begin!)

Offline Kilrah

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If the company folds and its servers go down, *every* buyer of the machine would need refillable bags.
Nah, they'll just trash the thing and all its beautiful engineering without second thought. I doubt any significant fraction of owners would go through the hassle of preparing their bags just to keep using it. Given the initial price and running costs the owners aren't in a category where they'll care about the $400 more than the hassle or their time that made them buy it.

I wonder how hard is to flash new firmware via that internal USB connection? (Let the arms race begin!)
I read it was an STM32, so it's likely just a connection to the built-in DFU bootloader. Piece of cake.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 09:19:35 am by Kilrah »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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I wonder if the press mechanism would be useful for machine shop applications.  Forming powders and plastics, embossing sheet metal, maybe even some small hydraulic-press applications (replace the door and pusher plate with a small piston and slide).

Very likely, everything is under MCU control, so that once hacks are developed, it could be fully repurposed as a Wifi connected CNC device!

Tim
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Offline MarkS

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I'd just like to pick one up to see if I can hack it. There has got to be a way to trick the QR code reader. Problem is that I have to spend $400 to get my hands on a juice bag to get the QR code to run tests. :/ I doubt their data scheme is 100% secure, but I'm not going to waste $400 to find out.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Guess you'll need to develop a fake server as well.
 

Offline MarkS

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Guess you'll need to develop a fake server as well.

It depends entirely on the contents of the QR code. You are most likely correct though.
 

Offline Kilrah

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The initial outcry was precisely over the fact that you could not use the machine at all without a connection. Suggests the QR is just a unique ID that gets sent to the server which checks whether it matches a bag that went out of the factory, that expiry date isn't passed, returns the type etc, then marks it as consumed in the database so it can't be reused again.
 

Offline MarkS

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The initial outcry was precisely over the fact that you could not use the machine at all without a connection. Suggests the QR is just a unique ID that gets sent to the server which checks whether it matches a bag that went out of the factory, that expiry date isn't passed, returns the type etc, then marks it as consumed in the database so it can't be reused again.

That is most likely the case, but not guaranteed. It depends whether they thought it would be cost effective to make the data contained in the QR code secure. It isn't something the average person will know how to access or change. It is also likely that it says "Orange Juice". That's why I want to take a look and precisely why I will not spend $400 to find out.
 

Offline timb

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It seems pretty basic for a juicer, in the cutaway view you can see the motors, wifi board (WHY! JUST WHY!), switches, and a power supply. I think the wifi board and the custom power supply, along with the casing amount for the majority of the cost. I don't see where the other $150 is coming from though.

If you're interested, I found this miscellaneous control system on amazon. Supposedly for rc cars.

- https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Controller-H-bridge-Regulator-Current/dp/B017FZDVJY/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1493089180&sr=8-10&keywords=wifi+control+board

Read the article. All that custom machined aluminum is really expensive to produce. It has quite a few parts required custom machining. And not just one type of machining either! A single part have to pass through several different CNC setups before it's finished. That's slow and expensive to produce and prices don't go down much as quantity increases.

The electronics are most likely the cheapest part of the thing. If they're using the CC3200MOD, it would cost $10-$15 in 1000 quantities, however the CC3200 by itself would be closer to $5 (plus another $2-$3 of support components that would be included in the module version).

Actually, it's a bit weird they're using the CC3200 *and* and STM32 on the same board. They should shave a couple of bucks off by using the CC3100 instead. (CC3200 has a user accessible ARM-CM4 that can be used as a primary MCU in the system, whereas the CC3100 doesn't.)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Kilrah

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99% sure it isn't.
Would be too easy to bypass even maybe just by cutting/pasting the code from another bag, and as we all know regardless of how "secure" the code is there would still be a possibility for someone to crack it and short-circuit their business by selling 3rd-party bags, too much risk.

The server-based approach is the tightest, and as they've gone for tigntness all the way and haven't exactly spared on engineering costs it would actually be surprising if they used any other solution.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 10:17:12 am by Kilrah »
 

Offline Kilrah

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Actually, it's a bit weird they're using the CC3200 *and* and STM32 on the same board. They should shave a couple of bucks off by using the CC3100 instead.
You answered yourself in the first part of your post. Given how overboard they went with everything they couldn't care less about shaving a buck or 2 on the STM.
 

Offline MarkS

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99% sure it isn't.
Would be too easy to bypass even maybe just by cutting/pasting the code from another bag, and as we all know regardless of how "secure" the code is there would still be a possibility for someone to crack it and short-circuit their business by selling 3rd-party bags, too much risk.

The server-based approach is the tightest, and as they've gone for tigntness all the way and haven't exactly spared on engineering costs it would actually be surprising if they used any other solution.

Understand that I'm not arguing with you and I believe you to be correct. Still, this is all supposition until someone actually checks the contents of the QR code. I want to look at the hacking of it from all angles and the QR code is one of those angles. Maybe a dead end, but still something to explore.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Sure, understand the interest of looking at all aspects.

I actually just read that Juicero has put forward the ability to block packs from being used if there was a recall on a batch of product.
That forces the remote authentication scenario.
 

Offline timb

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Actually, it's a bit weird they're using the CC3200 *and* and STM32 on the same board. They should shave a couple of bucks off by using the CC3100 instead.
You answered yourself in the first part of your post. Given how overboard they went with everything they couldn't care less about shaving a buck or 2 on the STM.

It still doesn't make sense. Lowering the BOM cost means more money in their pocket. It's not like designing in the CC3100 would be any harder than the CC3200. The power and RF design is *identical* in pretty much every way between the two parts, the CC3200 simply has additional I/O for the MCU functions.

In fact, it would have been *easier* to design in the CC3100, since you could just talk to the STM32 via SPI right out of the box. The CC3200 would need to be programmed with some custom firmware to allow it to send data back and forth between the STM32.
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Offline AndyC_772

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I actually just read that Juicero has put forward the ability to block packs from being used if there was a recall on a batch of product.
That forces the remote authentication scenario.

...or if the pack has passed its expiry date, or if it's already been pressed, or even partially pressed but then aborted.

Seems that refusing to press packs is a part of the business model too. There's no "oh, ffs, just press the damn thing" button.

Offline amyk

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Remove the DRM and subscriptions and they will be out of business in a month. Not that I'd complain though...

Sure, I've no problem with that either. In fact I'd be surprised if someone doesn't start a little business of their own, selling very simple control PCBs which completely replace the electronics in the Juicero, along with a few refillable bags.
There's this, which is basically the Juicero without the IoT DRM: http://www.juisir.com/

(It does use semi-special bags, but I bet those would be easy to make yourself.)

Not surprisingly, Juicero is going after them: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/juice-wars-juicero-has-sued-another-juicer-maker-for-patent-infringement/

Funny comparison table from Juisir. No mention of Internet connectivity requirement.
 

Offline ConKbot

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Ignoring the whole juice DRM, and the fact that hardware relying on external servers is garbage, they buy a high voltage DC motor from a drill motor company and instead of getting them to throw a planetary gearbox that's 1/2 the size of the motor? or using a worm drive for a steep reduction, they put together a fancy custom machined gearbox?   Custom power supply for 330v   that's inaccessible to the user instead of rectified (and doubled in 120v land) mains?  Jeeze these guys sure knew how to stuff, but sure didn't know when or why to do stuff.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 11:35:09 am by ConKbot »
 

Offline Kilrah

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In fact, it would have been *easier* to design in the CC3100, since you could just talk to the STM32 via SPI right out of the box. The CC3200 would need to be programmed with some custom firmware to allow it to send data back and forth between the STM32.
Given their locking down of things I'd say that's intentional, that way they can use a non-standard communication scheme to make reverse-engineering more difficult.

Anyway the whole thing is so overvblown it really sounds like it's based on a marketing whiz crunching up some numbers and predicting they'd basically be drowning under so many millions of monthly profits from their bag sales in no time, backed by people who believed it and invested way more than you'd expect into such a thing, driving everybody into "we don't need to care a single bit about costs becasue we'll make soooo much anyway" mode.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 11:35:22 am by Kilrah »
 

Online EEVblog

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I actually just read that Juicero has put forward the ability to block packs from being used if there was a recall on a batch of product.
That forces the remote authentication scenario.

Just cut it and squeeze by hand  :-DD
 
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Offline Kilrah

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The typical customer won't even think/remember they can do that  :-DD
 

Online xrunner

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Quote
Juicero says you can mail your $700 juicers back for a refund if you were outraged to learn you can squeeze its juice packs by hand

Juicero, the maker of a high-tech juicing machine, is offering full refunds to customers who are upset to learn that its juice packs can be squeezed by hand.

In a lengthy blog post on Medium on Thursday to address the hand-squeezing controversy, Juicero CEO Jeff Dunn promised to take back machines from any customer who "feels that we aren’t making it easier, more enjoyable and delicious to form a healthy habit."

"If you send us your Press, we’ll refund the money you paid for it. Period," he wrote.

When it was launched a year ago, the $700 Juicero machine touted its ability to create the perfect glass of juice, harnessing the tons of force generated by the machine to squeeze out every last drop of juice from the bags of fresh fruits and vegetables.

But on Wednesday, Bloomberg broke the news that the high-end juicer backed by Silicon Valley's elite venture capitalists wasn't even needed to squeeze out the juice. It turned out that hand-squeezing the packets yielded nearly the same amount of juice and in a slightly shorter time, according to Bloomberg's tests.

http://www.businessinsider.com/juicero-offers-refund-for-squeezing-juice-packets-2017-4
But ...

Quote
Expiration date

Now, Juicero is on the defensive and is arguing that its juicer (whose price was already cut to $400) is needed because "the value of Juicero is more than a glass of cold-pressed juice. Much more," says its CEO Jeff Dunn.

To Juicero, the value of the company is its connected juice press that can tell you when the juice is about to expire and saves you the two minutes of packet squeezing.

Like the juice packets, Juicero's refund offer also has an expiration date: Customers need to return the machines in the next 30 days. And don't expect Juicero to take care of the shipping. Dunn's blog post noted that "if you send us your Press" the company will issue a refund.

Whether a $400 juicer is worth saving two minutes of hand-squeezing is a question you'll have to decide, but here's what it was like to use the Juicero machine when Business Insider first visited last April.


I got a better idea, seeing as how you can just squeeze it by hand, just do an Addam's family design. Have two hands come out of a machine and do the squeezing!  :-DD

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Offline timb

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Quote
Juicero says you can mail your $700 juicers back for a refund if you were outraged to learn you can squeeze its juice packs by hand

Juicero, the maker of a high-tech juicing machine, is offering full refunds to customers who are upset to learn that its juice packs can be squeezed by hand.

In a lengthy blog post on Medium on Thursday to address the hand-squeezing controversy, Juicero CEO Jeff Dunn promised to take back machines from any customer who "feels that we aren’t making it easier, more enjoyable and delicious to form a healthy habit."

"If you send us your Press, we’ll refund the money you paid for it. Period," he wrote.

When it was launched a year ago, the $700 Juicero machine touted its ability to create the perfect glass of juice, harnessing the tons of force generated by the machine to squeeze out every last drop of juice from the bags of fresh fruits and vegetables.

But on Wednesday, Bloomberg broke the news that the high-end juicer backed by Silicon Valley's elite venture capitalists wasn't even needed to squeeze out the juice. It turned out that hand-squeezing the packets yielded nearly the same amount of juice and in a slightly shorter time, according to Bloomberg's tests.

http://www.businessinsider.com/juicero-offers-refund-for-squeezing-juice-packets-2017-4
But ...

Quote
Expiration date

Now, Juicero is on the defensive and is arguing that its juicer (whose price was already cut to $400) is needed because "the value of Juicero is more than a glass of cold-pressed juice. Much more," says its CEO Jeff Dunn.

To Juicero, the value of the company is its connected juice press that can tell you when the juice is about to expire and saves you the two minutes of packet squeezing.

Like the juice packets, Juicero's refund offer also has an expiration date: Customers need to return the machines in the next 30 days. And don't expect Juicero to take care of the shipping. Dunn's blog post noted that "if you send us your Press" the company will issue a refund.

Whether a $400 juicer is worth saving two minutes of hand-squeezing is a question you'll have to decide, but here's what it was like to use the Juicero machine when Business Insider first visited last April.


I got a better idea, seeing as how you can just squeeze it by hand, just do an Addam's family design. Have two hands come out of a machine and do the squeezing!  :-DD



Yeah, my mind must constantly be in he gutter because I can think of a much more profitable job for a mechanical hand and it ain't squeezing juice!
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Offline Marco

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I don't think anyone has suggested that the machine is actually bad at juicing

Given the amount of juice you can get out by hand I think the pulp is mostly for show. I think it either only has enough power to squeeze the already liquid juice from the bag, or they found that putting large chunks of fruit&veg in the bags ran the risk of bags failing.
 

Offline MarkS

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Given the amount of juice you can get out by hand I think the pulp is mostly for show. I think it either only has enough power to squeeze the already liquid juice from the bag, or they found that putting large chunks of fruit&veg in the bags ran the risk of bags failing.

I was thinking the same thing. Anyone that has ever tried to extract juice from a fruit or vegetable knows it requires far more pieces of fruits/vegetables than what you end up getting as juice. If those pouches hold 8 oz of fruit/veggies, then there should only be about 1 - 2 oz of juice, if that. They MUST already be full of juice.
 

Offline MadTux

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One of the most overengineered piece of bad engineering.

The door is completely unnecessary, ever seen a press with a hingeable load structure? Probably not, because it weakens the structure and is completely unnecessary. Just flip the good old portal press by 90° and load the bags from the top.

That acme screw thingy is ridiculous, such a 18th century design, except they knew on how to build acme screw presses back then and used massive screws. That screw will always get all the loading on a few mm's of it's length. That's where the screw will start fretting and galling before getting stuck forever. From what I can see, they were even stupid enough to fabricate the nut from the same material as the screw (hardened? steel) instead of bronze or brass, which will make the issue even worse.
 

Offline Sredni

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Sure, understand the interest of looking at all aspects.

I actually just read that Juicero has put forward the ability to block packs from being used if there was a recall on a batch of product.
That forces the remote authentication scenario.

Yeah, right.
And the government wants to take away your privacy to fight terrorism.
Same scenario.

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Offline Marco

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Not surprisingly, Juicero is going after them: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/juice-wars-juicero-has-sued-another-juicer-maker-for-patent-infringement/

The phrasing for the trade dress complaint reminds me of Apple's rectangle with rounded corners design patent ... “symmetrical, upright”.

Don't quite see how they can demand all the components to be delivered to them for destruction, trade dress is not international law.
 

Online xrunner

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There's this, which is basically the Juicero without the IoT DRM: http://www.juisir.com/

(It does use semi-special bags, but I bet those would be easy to make yourself.)

At least you can cut up your own veggies and make up the bags yourself. I bet that really pisses off Juicero -

Quote
Juisir launched a Kickstarter earlier this year, with pre-orders still underway. The company claims that its product will provide 8 tons of force to press juice from fruits and vegetables that a Juisir owner chops themselves and places in either a single-use or a re-usable bag that the plant matter gets pressed in.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/juice-wars-juicero-has-sued-another-juicer-maker-for-patent-infringement/

Man these juice names are confusing me - Juicero - Juisir - I keep looking at the source page to spell them correctly.  :rant:
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Offline rrinker

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 Could go with Juiceroo but then Batteroo would have to sue.

 
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Offline RGB255_0_0

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Guess who's got his dirty mitts on one?

Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 
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Offline MadTux

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Don't usually watch much youtube, but that stuff is hilarious  ;D ;D
 

Online xrunner

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Guess who's got his dirty mitts on one?



Hahaha - oh man gotta watch that tonight!
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Offline ivan747

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This bit made me laugh especially:

"Mr Dunn said that because each pouch of fruit and vegetables was individually tagged, the firm could remotely disable them"

 :-DD


Oh god... why...
 

Offline ivan747

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Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?  ::)

The reason such things have some success is precisely because they change the boring usual way of doing it.

I feel like people are just getting bored in this day and age, and more and more new things nowadays are thus just about finding a different way to do stuff simply to try and keep people entertained, regardless of how useless or inefficient it is. And it will be since most of daily life's actions have reached "maturity" and their most efficient implementation decades ago, and any change thus has to become worse... but that's good, becasue in 10 years we'll be able to introduce a change again by bringing back the good old way that people will have forgotten in the meantime.

I see such a cycle in many fields. The lack of real progress calls for going backwards because regular change is needed. The linear progress doesn't work anymore so it's turned into a slow oscillation around the plateau.

I think you're onto something. Explains the whole mechanical watch thing, although that world has its own overpiced junk, there are some products that are true craftsmanship and mechanical engineering.
 

Offline Macbeth

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This is even better than the John Deere tractor manufacturer in trying to rinse IP rights for the corporate overlords  :palm:
 

Offline Kilrah

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And yet another awesome teardown by AvE, that was hilarious  :-DD
 

Offline cdev

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"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline yada

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https://youtu.be/_Cp-BGQfpHQ




It spies on your juice. Wonder fully built machines.
 

Offline edavid

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Ignoring the whole juice DRM, and the fact that hardware relying on external servers is garbage, they buy a high voltage DC motor from a drill motor company and instead of getting them to throw a planetary gearbox that's 1/2 the size of the motor? or using a worm drive for a steep reduction, they put together a fancy custom machined gearbox?   Custom power supply for 330v   that's inaccessible to the user instead of rectified (and doubled in 120v land) mains?

It's not really a 330V motor, that was a mistaken (and foolish) guess based on the motor label.
 

Online xrunner

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As was said in the video - should have made the plastic case clear, to show off the expensive machined parts inside.  ;)
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Offline cdev

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Champion makes a kickass juicer - This has always been the one I wanted. But super expensive.. Around $300

https://www.google.com/search?q=champion+juicer

We have a much less pricey one from Oster


Quote from: rrinker on 2017-04-23, 11:02:48
Know how we USED to do it? There was an attachment for my grandmother's stand mixer and you just sliced each orange in half and held it over the rotating attachment. Juice ran down the spout into the pitcher. Hardly any effort at all, and no fancy single task machine. They still make those.
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Offline janekm

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The "rsstroom" people were just too far ahead of their time, these days it would be a huge IoT startup: http://www.djspyhunter.com/teapot/2005/12/rsstroom-reader-toilet-paper-printer.html
 

Offline mc172

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Why would something like that need a 330 V rail? :o :wtf:

I've worked on (the mechanical parts of) a piece of electric vehicle charging equipment that needed a 185 VDC rail to drive a load of LEDs in series (no idea why you'd need to do it this way?) but this is bonkers.
 

Offline yada

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So all the machine does is squish a bag of pulp? Why is it so complicated? Why not just make a hand roller like the ones for tooth paste tubes? Seems like a rube Goldberg way of doing things.
 

Online xrunner

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So all the machine does is squish a bag of pulp? Why is it so complicated? Why not just make a hand roller like the ones for tooth paste tubes?

Because ... um ... well ... the thing is ... ah because ...

Just call it bling for your kitchen?
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Offline yada

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It will save you time during your busy morning! You have to create a user id password and hope that your internet and smart phone are all working for it to squeeze a bag of juice? I really thought this was a spoof but its not, its real. I bet the camera takes a picture of you when you open the door like those new cocacola soda machines. What a waste of time money and plastic that goes into a landfill.
 

Online xrunner

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Do the bags have to be refrigerated until used?

I say that because if that's not required I'm really shocked it doesn't have a clock/timer so you can load a bag, place an empty glass under it, and have it automatically squeeze it at a preset time. For all the engineering in there why not have that feature?  :-//
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Offline yada

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So all the machine does is squish a bag of pulp? Why is it so complicated? Why not just make a hand roller like the ones for tooth paste tubes?

Because ... um ... well ... the thing is ... ah because ...

Just call it bling for your kitchen?

When I was watching the AVE video I kept asking myself "yeah but what else does it do? does it cool/heat the juice, filter, or process it? He's not explaining something. " Nope. I can't wait for the next useless product to come out. How about a device that monitors the condition of your ice cube trays to see if they have been tampered with or contain non proprietary water in them?
 
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Offline t_ryner

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So all the machine does is squish a bag of pulp? Why is it so complicated? Why not just make a hand roller like the ones for tooth paste tubes? Seems like a rube Goldberg way of doing things.

Same could be said about keurig coffee makers! I mean all you have to do is filter hot water through some crushed up coffee beans!  :-//
 

Offline amyk

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Do the bags have to be refrigerated until used?

I say that because if that's not required I'm really shocked it doesn't have a clock/timer so you can load a bag, place an empty glass under it, and have it automatically squeeze it at a preset time. For all the engineering in there why not have that feature?  :-//
Because "common sense" features tend to not be really considered at all by SV startups... they're more in it for the bling, the wank, and the $$$.

I remember once using (or being forced to use) a web app made by a company like this --- and it would've been trivial to change the page CSS style to have it actually show useful information and be easier to use instead of hiding it behind lots of click-overs, so I gave feedback and their response was basically "we think it looks better even though you need to click a few more times, so we're not changing it"|O I ended up just doing it locally with a userstyle.
 
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Offline cdev

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There must be something else going on.

Maybe they sell the other information they gather as part of this process
.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Online xrunner

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There must be something else going on.

Maybe they sell the other information they gather as part of this process
.


Quote
When you use Juicero products, they may connect automatically to the Services, in which case we automatically receive information concerning the Juicero products you use and your usage activity in connection with those products (e.g., which juice packets you use with the products, the time of day you use the products, and similar data).

https://www.juicero.com/privacy-policy/

Well we knew that anyway.


Quote
Will Juicero share any of the personal information it receives?

We do not rent or sell your Personal Information in personally identifiable form to anyone. We may share your Personal Information with third parties as described in this section:

Information that’s been de-identified: We may de-identify your Personal Information so that you are not identified as an individual, and provide that information to our partners. We may also provide aggregate usage information to our partners (or allow partners to collect that information from you), who may use such information to understand how often and in what ways people use our Services, so that they, too, can provide you with an optimal online experience. However, we never disclose aggregate usage or de-identified information to a partner (or allow a partner to collect such information) in a manner that would identify you as an individual person.

https://www.juicero.com/privacy-policy/

Oh a new word for me - de-identify.  :)

I want to go through a day this week as a de-identified person.  :clap:
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Offline magetoo

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Just call it bling for your kitchen?

That's exactly what it is.  Its purpose is not just making juice, but also fitting in with the other expensive items in your kitchen and telling visitors you're clued in to what's hip and can afford to throw unreasonable amounts of money at some small everyday problem you just can't be bothered with.  Like having servants prepare your meals, but without the cultural baggage.

So of course it has to be overengineered.  Only the best is good enough for the elite consumer who has everything!  It makes no sense as a mass market product because that's not what it is.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 09:51:28 am by magetoo »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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A method has been discovered to properly "repair" the Jizzero to chooch to our will!

*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
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Offline Kilrah

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Still wondering why he went with a bunch of relays and stuff instead of a simple DPDT switch...
 

Offline cdev

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Yes, thats called "The Analog Hole".

Quote from: xrunner on 2017-04-21, 07:35:15>Quote from: AndyC_772 on 2017-04-21, 07:31:45
I wondered what happens to the waste once the bag has been squeezed dry, but according to their web site, that's covered too. I kid ye not:

>"Once pressed, the pulp inside can be eaten (our preference)"

Source: https://www.juicero.com/the-packs/

Wait a sec ... I think I just got a terrific idea!

Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?  ::)
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Offline MarkS

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Here is a much more useful and far more awesome app-enabled device:

https://youtu.be/yqynvR-HNiE
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 11:05:40 am by MarkS »
 

Offline Kilrah

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Offline MarkS

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:-DD

One of the many channels I subscribe to. Their YouTube channel is nothing more than advertising for their retail site, but their videos are so well done and entertaining that I'll gladly sit through the crappy YouTube ads to watch their commercials. If more ads were like their videos, I'd gladly watch without complaint! Anyway, glad you liked it!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 12:25:46 pm by MarkS »
 

Offline senso

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Yes, thats called "The Analog Hole".

Quote from: xrunner on 2017-04-21, 07:35:15>Quote from: AndyC_772 on 2017-04-21, 07:31:45
I wondered what happens to the waste once the bag has been squeezed dry, but according to their web site, that's covered too. I kid ye not:

>"Once pressed, the pulp inside can be eaten (our preference)"

Source: https://www.juicero.com/the-packs/

Wait a sec ... I think I just got a terrific idea!

Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?  ::)


If you drink the juice and eat the pressed remains why not just eat the damm fruit to begin with?
 
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Online xrunner

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If you drink the juice and eat the pressed remains why not just eat the damm fruit to begin with?

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Offline yada

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Yes, thats called "The Analog Hole".

Quote from: xrunner on 2017-04-21, 07:35:15>Quote from: AndyC_772 on 2017-04-21, 07:31:45
I wondered what happens to the waste once the bag has been squeezed dry, but according to their web site, that's covered too. I kid ye not:

>"Once pressed, the pulp inside can be eaten (our preference)"

Source: https://www.juicero.com/the-packs/

Wait a sec ... I think I just got a terrific idea!

Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?  ::)


If you drink the juice and eat the pressed remains why not just eat the damm fruit to begin with?

Because there would be no app to go with that.
Just the other day I was thinking this orange is great, but what if I had to set up and then log into an app every time I wanted to eat one? The app would even check to make sure it was still an orange and warn me if there was a safety recall for bad oranges. 
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Juicero is axing 25 per cent of its staff...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/14/juicero_layoffs/

Offline Cyberdragon

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Juicero is axing 25 per cent of its staff...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/14/juicero_layoffs/

GOOD! Maybe those people can find actual decent jobs now and help people instead of working for a scam company!
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline MarkS

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Can someone translate this into meaningful English?

"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about, and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing, was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."
 

Offline mc172

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Can someone translate this into meaningful English?

"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about, and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing, was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."

Does it make sense to you if it's written like this:

"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about (and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing) was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."

?
 

Offline MarkS

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Can someone translate this into meaningful English?

"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about, and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing, was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."

Does it make sense to you if it's written like this:

"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about (and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing) was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."

?

I can read quite well. What is he talking about? What was new and relevant? What distraction? If he is talking about squeezing the packet by hand, he totally missed the point. This was a rather random quote added to the article that didn't quite fit with the rest of the article, at least not without context.
 

Offline mc172

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You asked if someone could translate into meaningful English, not explain the context. :-+
 

Online xrunner

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Can someone translate this into meaningful English?

"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about, and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing, was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."

I have no idea what he's talking about.

The only way it would make sense to me (I'm adding my own comments) would be like this:

"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about,

[the possibility of applying computer control and internet access to a simple every-day activity]

and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing,

[not interested in applying computer and internet control to squeezing fruit/veggie packets]

was somehow new and relevant.

[Applying computers and internet access is not new and relevant to other everyday activities such as banking and gaming]

But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."

[So is that what he meant? I have no idea.]


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Offline 691175002

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"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about,

[the possibility of applying computer control and internet access to a simple every-day activity]

My initial understanding was the same as yours, but the quote came from the CEO and was supposed to be motivational.

Juciro knew that packets could be squeezed by hand, but did not consider it revelant as their customers would not be doing that.  The final bit at the end ("But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus.") is just thanking staff for continuing to work despite the bad press.
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #158 on: September 02, 2017, 01:23:51 am »
Looks like they've gone bust and shutting down.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/01/juicero-silicon-valley-shutting-down


Such disappointment.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #159 on: September 02, 2017, 01:29:03 am »
Looks like they've gone bust and shutting down.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/01/juicero-silicon-valley-shutting-down
Such disappointment.

And the collective tech community gasps with shock!
How could it have possibly failed???
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #160 on: September 02, 2017, 01:29:56 am »
Looks like they've gone bust and shutting down.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/01/juicero-silicon-valley-shutting-down


Such disappointment.

I guess they got squeezed out (sorry).
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Offline digsys

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #162 on: September 02, 2017, 04:08:14 am »
WAIT !! There's HOPE !!!
"The company will try to find a buyer “who can carry forward the Juicero mission,” he added."
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #163 on: September 02, 2017, 07:13:15 am »
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/01/juicero_now_a_fruitless_endeavor/

So, of course, not only are they not able to fulfil any new orders, but every machine they've ever shipped becomes an instant boat anchor. But that's OK... somehow they can afford:

Quote
Juicero says that it will be offering full refunds for the next 90 days to anyone who dropped the $400 on a juicer.

That should make them highly attractive to any potential acquirer, I'm sure.

Offline iampoor

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #164 on: September 02, 2017, 08:23:58 am »

Quote
Juicero says that it will be offering full refunds for the next 90 days to anyone who dropped the $400 on a juicer.

That should make them highly attractive to any potential acquirer, I'm sure.

Im actually surprised they are offering refunds. It seems like a decent thing to do, I wonder what the motivation is....?

Isnt looking for someone to aquire the business just a normal course of action for these crazy VC backed startups? Im sure the "tech" they developed is worth something to someone.  ;D
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #165 on: September 02, 2017, 09:21:46 am »
Can someone translate this into meaningful English?

"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about, and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing, was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."

"We knew out product was crap and a complete waste of money but we didn't think the public would realise so quickly"
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #166 on: September 02, 2017, 10:36:37 am »
Notice that what they're offering is a refund, which of course they can't afford to do for everybody, rather than a free firmware update which enables a trivial new feature: "press and hold the button for 2 seconds to begin pressing without first asking for permission over the network".

I'd love to see them put on the spot and asked, in a very public forum, why they haven't made this simple change. It would take about 10 minutes to implement, and would ensure that nobody is left with a machine they can't use.

I'd like to ask them why they feel that allowing all those otherwise perfectly serviceable machines to end up in landfill is acceptable.

Perhaps the only consolation here is that we may end up with another good example of failure to use in engineering lectures.

Offline iampoor

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #167 on: September 02, 2017, 11:39:18 am »
Maybe they will add that feature if no one buys the company assets.  >:D >:D


 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #168 on: September 02, 2017, 11:55:57 am »
Notice that what they're offering is a refund, which of course they can't afford to do for everybody, rather than a free firmware update which enables a trivial new feature: "press and hold the button for 2 seconds to begin pressing without first asking for permission over the network".

I'm sure it won't be long until some tech-savvy user writes their own code that does just that.

However that being said, if the company is going under, where are the users going to buy their over-priced fruit pouches from? I assume they've stopped manufacturing these as well.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #169 on: September 02, 2017, 01:49:13 pm »
That's the point; the only reason for the machine to have its IoT features at all is to enforce dependency on the manufacturer's consumables with their unique, individual QR codes, and the central server that authenticates each one and 'allows' the machine to press it. If the supply of those dries up, the machine becomes completely useless.

Offline cdev

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #170 on: September 02, 2017, 03:45:34 pm »
That response letter sounded to me as if he was trying to contain the damage by making the revelation look too boring to even go look at. That is to say they were trying to do damage control by pretending to have more credibility, confident that most people would be fooled by it's tone into thinking it was nothing/never investigating the situation.

Which actually is quite newsworthy as we have seen.

I think the Juicero situation is illustrative of a number of disturbing changes in society but its challenging to put them into words in a way that does the situation justice.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:38:33 pm by cdev »
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Offline madires

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #171 on: September 02, 2017, 04:28:58 pm »
That's the point; the only reason for the machine to have its IoT features at all is to enforce dependency on the manufacturer's consumables with their unique, individual QR codes, and the central server that authenticates each one and 'allows' the machine to press it. If the supply of those dries up, the machine becomes completely useless.

And the sad thing is that most people will figure that out only after it happened to them, not while considering to buy such an IoT device.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #172 on: September 02, 2017, 07:26:21 pm »
The people who bought the juicer don't DESERVE refunds. They deserve to have that 400 dollars go down the drain so they can learn not to shove money into worthless IoT things that do LESS than that the traditional counterparts do. IoT needs to DIE in a fire. It's a complete and total undercooked GIMMICK that has formed into one of the largest botnets in the world that is capable of taking down a considerable chunk of the internet.

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Offline CopperCone

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #173 on: September 02, 2017, 09:25:51 pm »
For some reason I don't see any objective opinions in this thread.

1) It claims to be calibrated

This means,
1) Fruit control - particular ripeness level, fruit size, possibly sugar content, cut quality, etc is sampled (i.e. chemical inspection at packaging plant), also possibly assured vendors, supply chain control (like buying parts from digikey vs ebay china), good wash, pesticide test, etc. They may have an expert fruit tester present in their facility, similar to a wine tester, to assure quality.


2) Calibration on fruit - the pressure is tailored to the cut and type of fruit in the bag, to provide some kind of calibrated experience with the squeeze contents of the solid.

I'm sure there were significant R&D costs to developing fruit calibrations. You need to do tests to determine what is the most accepted flavor profile of a squeeze. Then figure out how to maintain that flavor profile throughout the seasons, different fruit suppliers (you probably wont be buying from the same guy the entire year around), etc

3) Emergency Convenience- late, tired, etc... you still get what you consider (im not sure if it actually is) healthy, even in really bad situations where you can't be fucked preparing a meal. Even the most dedicated people have situations where they will eat a bag of cookies for dinner. Now, its theoretically possible that having the fruit etc might help stave off a disease or provide an immune boost to dodge some kind of illness that can occur due to poor nutrition in a weakened state. Also, you might heal faster, lets say your sick with a cold and you feel tired.

Doing these things yourself requires shopping prowess, the fruit wash in the sink, the cutting, inventory management

So you need to keep a fruit stockpile and schedule your meals based on ripeness. This is what a wife typically does.

It's expensive or time consuming either way. Some people just don't like going grocery shopping and prep work etc.

Now, what you get it scheduled deliveries, this saves you shopping time and cuts down on inventory space. You also (I don';t know if they do it right) get guaranteed fruit of some particular quality. This depends on the manufacturer standards.


Now, if you have family/wife/friends that take care of you, the value of this invention drops drastically. On the other hand, if you are alone, or everyone is busy, its not the stupidest thing in the world. Obviously its being charged to a premium, but people do alot of weird ass expensive shit, like massages, vacations, yoga, drinking fancy alcohol,titty bars, hookers, drugs, tea (ever check out the price of premium teas?), aromatherapy, etc.

In some ways, it does seem more logical then hiring a thai hooker for a massage, but each to his own.

I for instance enjoy Snapple iced tea, even though I can make some good tea at home. It costs like 2.5$ a bottle. Cheap, but you can argue the I am completely retarded for all the plastic waste etc, compared to a teabag or better loose tea, which only incurs typically a small metal or plastic waste. 

And, some fruits are just unpleasant to eat, but the juices are OK imo. I don't like eating apples very much, but apple juice is quite good. Unless someone provides me with a free apple, I will not purchase one. And sometimes you fill up on junkier food but still want the fruit nutrients without filling your stomach further (i.e. go out to a burger joint). This may help with digestion.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 09:35:52 pm by CopperCone »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #174 on: September 03, 2017, 02:19:04 am »
IoT needs to DIE in a fire.

I generally agree, however at first glance, the Nest smoke/carbon monoxide alarm seems to be at least one IoT product worth having. I say this because it doesn't rely on the internet (or even your own Wi-Fi network) to continue functioning. Once set up and if your internet/power fails, it will continue to work autonomously and will communicate directly with other units using their own mesh network.

The downside to the Nest is that it contains a microphone (for it's "self test" feature) -- A smoke alarm does NOT need a microphone!

If you're going to design a GOOD IoT device, it needs to have a fall-back mode where without the internet or the company existing any more, it's still perfectly usable for the most part.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 02:21:27 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline MarkS

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #175 on: September 03, 2017, 02:51:49 am »
...snip...

So, basically, what you're saying is that this overpriced and gimped piece of junk was needed because people are too stupid and/or lazy to select good pieces of fruit to squeeze themselves?

If you're going to design a GOOD IoT device, it needs to have a fall-back mode where without the internet or the company existing any more, it's still perfectly usable for the most part.

^^This!
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #176 on: September 03, 2017, 07:19:30 am »
...Calibration...
...Convenience...
...scheduled deliveries...

I think perhaps you've misunderstood the technical implementation of the product.

Suppose you think there is value in having a juice pack squeezed with a certain pressure for a certain amount of time. Personally I can't believe it's that big a deal, but I've nothing against anyone who can taste a difference and has a preference one way or the other. That's up to them.

The Juicero packs contain a QR code which is unique to each one. There is no technical reason whatsoever why that code couldn't contain, say, "press at 70% of full power for 20 seconds", which would tell the machine absolutely everything it needs to know to deliver the optimum end product.

But they don't, though. What they contain is "this is pack serial #12345678", and the machine has to contact a server with this ID to get a response back. That response contains the calibration data, and much more importantly, a 'yes / no' flag as to whether or not the machine is permitted to use that pack at all.

The features which benefit the owner of the machine could have been (trivially) made to work with no network connection. The only reason for needing a network connection is to enforce total dependency on the manufacturer's consumables, and to lock out competition.

Offline madires

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #177 on: September 03, 2017, 10:37:48 am »
Yep, Juicero's business model was: complete vendor lock-in and full control of devices = profit
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #178 on: September 03, 2017, 10:50:41 am »
"This is a machine aimed at vegetarian and vegan people.
They do not have the strength to squeeze those bags themselves. "

Veggies maybe, but Vegans are semi-cyborg. They might only be 3ft tall, but don't even think about arm-wresting one of 'em.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #179 on: September 03, 2017, 12:11:23 pm »
On their website they boast of selling "over a million Produce Packs" (they don't call them juice packs, because, well, they're still too wrapped up and taken in by their own marketing wank).

Aside from income from selling the machines and subscriptions, they also had $120m of a bunch of gullible VC fools' money, including Google. So, a million juice packs, $120m investment, that's of the order of about $120 per drink. Nice.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #180 on: September 03, 2017, 08:21:08 pm »
On their website they boast of selling "over a million Produce Packs" (they don't call them juice packs, because, well, they're still too wrapped up and taken in by their own marketing wank).

Aside from income from selling the machines and subscriptions, they also had $120m of a bunch of gullible VC fools' money, including Google. So, a million juice packs, $120m investment, that's of the order of about $120 per drink. Nice.

I'd like to think at least some of them came with top-shelf vodka.
 

Online Gyro

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #181 on: September 04, 2017, 05:41:47 pm »
From the BBC news site today, plus a few other failed startups...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41148663
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Offline CopperCone

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #182 on: September 04, 2017, 08:03:53 pm »
thats a problem with the sales people, the product can easily be reprogrammed.

the only thing that can be said, is that the system of using a serial number inhibits adulteration and counter fitting.

Perhaps this 'function' has more of a use if you are a prince in the 1500's


I never argued that the requirements for this product having a high utility are rather bizarre, but they exist.

MarkS, I can say that about anything. People are too stupid and lazy to mash their own potatoes, people are too stupid and lazy to mix their own cleaning agents, people are too stupid and lazy to wash their hands in the bath tub (why bother having a kitchen sink and a bath tub, you can just kneel down), people are too stupid and lazy to cut metal with a hacksaw (who needs that automatic band saw)... the purpose of all technology is to make things easier and faster, but it all costs money.

i mean maybe you really like going grocery shopping, i don't know

if you do the same fucking boring ass prep job every day for 40 years it adds up. It gets frustrating. Some people like the ritual I guess. It depends on how you structure your life. I think the dishwasher is a major similarity to this thing.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 08:10:02 pm by CopperCone »
 

Offline edy

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #183 on: September 04, 2017, 09:08:52 pm »
It appears to me like a big gimmick that is designed to lock the user into using a steady stream of proprietary consumables from this Juicero company. Same as the Keurig machines and Tassimo and so on.

While something like this Delonghi Magnifica is expensive, it does not lock you into any further purchases from the company, is not connected to the Internet and allows you to do all your settings (various volumes for sizes) yourself:



This is well worth the high cost. We have one running already flawlessly for probably 6-7 years now, being used daily to make numerous coffees, espressos, capuccinos... etc. All you need to add are whole beans of your choice, any milk of your choice (if you want) and water. That's it! The periodic descaling cycle and you are good to go!

If they can make a Juicer that works like this machine, but having to do with FRUIT then it would be a winner!  :-+ Even at twice the price.

It should have:
1) NO stupid premade juice packs, just add your own RAW FRUIT
2) Easy to clean system (water reservoir to flush machine)
3) Some settings for pressure/grinding/squashing options
4) Maybe additional container to let you add milk or some other ingredients

Just like this Delonghi coffee maker, which lets you add whole beans, water and milk container optionally when making capuccinos or lattes (by the way you don't have to use milk... you can use whatever milk-like beverage you want).

The coffee machine grinds the beans, or you can add your own preground stuff (like if the hopper is filled with caffeinated beans and you want to make a decaf... you add preground decaf). With the juicer... DESIGN it so add raw whole fruits to a grinding mechanism or let you add mushy or small bits of fruits to a non-cutting entry point. Maybe even allow addition of ice so you can get it to be like a slushy!

The coffee machine puts all of the coffee into a french press-like mechanism that then gets addition of steaming hot water and then a small press with tiny holes squeezes the mixture to keep out the particles of coffee and let the liquid out into your cup. Similarly, the hydraulic pump could squeeze the fruit pulp mixture to let out different amounts of either liquid only or varying degrees of pulp.

Finally, the use of an additional container that lets you add frothed milk (in the coffee machine example) can also be employed in the Juicer design. If you want to add certain other liquids, for example milk to make your juicer make a smoothie... that can be an option.

All of this could be put together with a menu system that has presets and a book explaining what ingredients to add. Or, you can have custom programmable entries to suit your tastes... Like more or less pulpy, more or less milk or whatever. Delonghi should just make a juicer using the same principles as their coffee machine, just built for Juicing instead of Coffee.

My point is, something like the concept I explained above would use:

1) your own fresh ingredients
2) the ability to process on the intake (grind/chop/etc) or not
3) add additional liquid (like milk) if desired
4) flush the machine with water from reservoir (to clean it out)
5) custom programmable and preset options with recipe book
6) one-button press
7) easy clean up using flushing from water reservoir
8) easy disassembly for cleaning

All of those features I have with my Delonghi as it applies to Coffee. This would be a $1000 Juicer that could be built to last and definitely would be worth it to Juiceheads.

They may already have that type of machine by the way.... But Juicero was built not for rich people but for people who can't afford that type of machine. Instead, they enter that lifestyle by buying a cheaper machine at a lower price but then pay more in the long run using these proprietary juicer packs.

Seems very similar to PRINTER MARKETING.....

Used to be an expensive professional-quality printer would give you lots of options regarding ink and you pay more up-front for the machine but then save in the long run because you have full control of it and the ink it uses.

Now these days the printers are made as cheap as possible to lock you in... and allow most people who couldn't afford a good printer otherwise to get into the game. Then the companies recoup that low profit on hardware by making it up on the consumables later.

This Juicero is nothing more than a stupid marketing technique applied to yet another aspect of our lives... except in this case people finally realize what it is.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #184 on: September 04, 2017, 11:02:47 pm »
Chinese clone without the IoT, apps, DRM, or other crap: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1793272089/juisir-juicing-without-the-cleaning

 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #185 on: September 05, 2017, 01:19:31 am »
It should have:
1) NO stupid premade juice packs, just add your own RAW FRUIT
2) Easy to clean system (water reservoir to flush machine)
3) Some settings for pressure/grinding/squashing options
4) Maybe additional container to let you add milk or some other ingredients

You mean, like a blender? Everything can even go in the dishwasher when you're finished.  :-+
 

Offline digsys

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #186 on: September 05, 2017, 02:49:43 am »
Quote from: amyk
Chinese clone without the IoT, apps, DRM, or other crap: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1793272089/juisir-juicing-without-the-cleaning   
The problem STILL is - offer #3 has ~$1000.00 for the extra bags !! Irrespective on how long you expect that to last, it's AGAIN a custom / proprietary design.
I doubt that you'd be bothered trying to make a clone. Plus a huge waste product. All because people don't want to clean a container ??? meh
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #187 on: September 05, 2017, 10:30:59 pm »
The problem STILL is - offer #3 has ~$1000.00 for the extra bags !! Irrespective on how long you expect that to last, it's AGAIN a custom / proprietary design.
I doubt that you'd be bothered trying to make a clone. Plus a huge waste product. All because people don't want to clean a container ??? meh

Thats $1000 for the 3 extra juicers, not the bags.
Its not my thing, but if they sell the cotton filters for a low price it seems reasonable. You can buy filter cloth for cheese/tofu making, so that might be usable.


Quote
- How to use the multiple-use juicing bags?
The multiple-use bags are split into two individual parts - the silicone outer bag and the 100% cotton filter. Place the cotton filter into the silicone outer bag and then follow the usual procedures. After juicing, take out the used cotton filter and discard it. The outer bag? Simply rinse it and you’re good to go again. All in all, there is no cleaning required for the machine.
- How many times can the silicone outer bags be used before it needs replacing?
A few hundred times under normal use.
 

Offline digsys

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #188 on: September 06, 2017, 12:45:13 am »
Quote from: thm_w
  ... Thats $1000 for the 3 extra juicers, not the bags.
Its not my thing, but if they sell the cotton filters for a low price it seems reasonable. You can buy filter cloth for cheese/tofu making, so that might be usable.
oops .. you're perfectly right. How would you replace the silicon pouch, if they stopped making them?
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Online xrunner

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #189 on: September 06, 2017, 01:30:01 am »
Plus a huge waste product. All because people don't want to clean a container ??? meh

Yea - but I keep seeing these things with a real glass under the exit spout. To be complete, they should show a disposable paper cup so the lack of anything to clean is complete.  :clap:
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #190 on: September 06, 2017, 05:42:07 pm »
Plus a huge waste product. All because people don't want to clean a container ??? meh

Yea - but I keep seeing these things with a real glass under the exit spout. To be complete, they should show a disposable paper cup so the lack of anything to clean is complete.  :clap:

Why don't they just coat the inside of the container with some sort of non-toxic hydrophobic coating so it never needs cleaning anyway?
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands
« Reply #191 on: September 07, 2017, 04:10:35 am »
Quote
Yea - but I keep seeing these things with a real glass under the exit spout. To be complete, they should show a disposable paper cup so the lack of anything to clean is complete.  :clap:

What if it incorporated a heat sealer and color printer. You buy rolls of plasticized aluminum to feed in one end. I think you get where this is going. Turn a big bag of fruit into a smaller bag that is basically like a freshly minted Capri-Sun.

Take it one step further, and for the non-vegetarians with average hand strength, you can incorporate the juice bag with the "produce pak." When you're ready to drink it, you open your lunch box, take out your "Juice Pak" TM, and you squeeze the produce side, filling the juice pack with fresh squeezed juice. Then you tear it off. And laugh at the poor kids drinking ghetto pre-squeezed juice.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 04:17:09 am by KL27x »
 


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